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Artificial Intelligence Has Race, Gender Biases (axios.com)

An anonymous reader shares a report: The ACLU has begun to worry that artificial intelligence is discriminatory based on race, gender and age. So it teamed up with computer science researchers to launch a program to promote applications of AI that protect rights and lead to equitable outcomes. MIT Technology Review reports that the initiative is the latest to illustrate general concern that the increasing reliance on algorithms to make decisions in the areas of hiring, criminal justice, and financial services will reinforce racial and gender biases. A computer program used by jurisdictions to help with paroling prisoners that ProPublica found would go easy on white offenders while being unduly harsh to black ones.

44 of 465 comments (clear)

  1. Did anyone think it would be otherwise? by HumanWiki · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Pretty much all intelligent life on this planet has preference and bias that seems to stem from a very base level... Why would AI be any different?

    Besides, we as their creator are flawed beings so inherently, our creations will be also flawed.

    1. Re:Did anyone think it would be otherwise? by gnick · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Besides, we as their creator are flawed beings so inherently, our creations will be also flawed.

      I'm not sure this is a flaw. If the data shows a gender or race bias, the AI will reflect that. Some biases based on gender and race exist, regardless of what the PC version of existence is. You can call it unfair, but not inaccurate.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    2. Re:Did anyone think it would be otherwise? by alvinrod · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or the bias lies with the notion that everyone should come out to be exactly the same. If you have an AI that doesn't even consider race, gender, age, etc. but still produces results that have an uneven distribution, then it's pretty likely that age, race, gender, or any other characteristics we could care to measure are not meaningless descriptors and are correlated with other factors whether we like to admit it or not.

      If an AI program says someone is a bad financial risk without any knowledge of their race, gender, age, etc. then it's because the person is a bad financial risk based on the factors it was given to consider not that the AI is discriminatory. The AI is going to be the least discriminatory thing possible, because it is incapable of having human-styled prejudices unless explicitly programmed to.

    3. Re:Did anyone think it would be otherwise? by sycodon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What are they calling "bias"?

      We read constantly about so-called racism based merely on the fact that one race objectively exhibits a particular trait over other races.

      That's called data, not bias.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    4. Re:Did anyone think it would be otherwise? by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Pretty much all intelligent life on this planet has preference and bias that seems to stem from a very base level... Why would AI be any different?

      Who wants to explain it to him?

      Not a problem.

      OP: You are 100% correct.

      People look for patterns in everything, including individual and tribal behaviors and trends.

      I can't really think of a stereotype that hasn't been or still is based largely on observable facts.

      It makes sense that AI that uses deep learning and other methods will likely see trends too.

      I mean, it should be simple for it to notice there aren't a lot of white guys on the floor with NBA teams.

      I doubt anyone human would refute that.

      So, why would it not be natural to observe the types and percentages of violent crimes committed by "X" race/gender categories?

      Bias...sure, but based on facts.

      So, yes...if intelligence is present (natural or artificial) , it will observe these trends, and base future trends and behavior upon these observational biases.

      If you have no biases, you could not operate in this world very well, as that you would wake up to a brand new world every day.

      The key is to keep the biases always in a state of adjustment based on changing trends.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    5. Re:Did anyone think it would be otherwise? by gnick · · Score: 5, Informative

      AI, like humans, makes mistakes like "correlation = causation".

      AI doesn't care about "correlation == causation". It only cares about "correlation == correlation". Humans may infer causation, but that's not the fault of AI.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    6. Re:Did anyone think it would be otherwise? by mean+pun · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What are they calling "bias"?

      We read constantly about so-called racism based merely on the fact that one race objectively exhibits a particular trait over other races.

      That's called data, not bias.

      Ok, let's start with the fundamentals. What exactly is 'race' here? You may think that's obvious, but all people have their own mixture of ancestors, so how are you going to sort everyone objectively into bins? If you can't do that, how are you going to objectively determine the traits of these supposed bins?

    7. Re:Did anyone think it would be otherwise? by dirk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Or the data being fed in could be biased. Take for example the idea of repeat criminal offenders. The data may say that in New York City, black men are more likely to be arrested after release than white men. But for years stop and frisk was in place so black men where constantly being stopped and frisked and arrested for minor infractions. So yes, they are more likely to be arrested by that is not the same as more likely to reoffend. They are more likely to be caught because the police stopped them more. So yes, the algorithm fed that data would say black men would reoffend more and it would be true to the data, but not true to the actual facts. Bias can be in the algorithm but it can also be in the data itself.

      --

      "Information wants to be expensive" - Stewart Brand, the same guy who said "Information wants to be free"
    8. Re:Did anyone think it would be otherwise? by XXongo · · Score: 4, Informative

      What are they calling "bias"? We read constantly about so-called racism based merely on the fact that one race objectively exhibits a particular trait over other races. That's called data, not bias.

      It's a tricky question. Just because something is data, does not mean that it isn't biased: data can be biased-- in fact, 90% of what we do in experimental science is understanding the bias in data and figuring out how to get an unbiased measurement out of a biased data set. Almost all data is biased one way or another.

      If, for example, white people caught shoplifting are usually given a warning and let off while black people caught shoplifting are arrested and prosecuted ("shopping while black"), the data will show a higher rate of shoplifting among blacks. You will need to go to the raw data to see the actuality. See: https://www.theguardian.com/la...

      An AI with no correction for bias will reflect the bias of society.

      The article linked is merely a summery of the propublica article, which is has more detail, here: https://www.propublica.org/art...

    9. Re:Did anyone think it would be otherwise? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Rather than race, think of it as "culture". It's why first and second generation African immgrants vastly exceed 3+ generation African Americans in terms of economic and scholastic success. American black culture is the issue, not prejudice against blacks in general. Biases against blacks are because of the prevalent US black culture creating the dominant image of what a black person is. We have cultural biases, not racial biases... It's not DNA - it's culture.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    10. Re:Did anyone think it would be otherwise? by sycodon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You are suggesting that the AI program not only keeps track of race, but that it also uses race as a factor in making it's decision.

      That's a pretty harsh accusation.

      The reality is that i these situations, the race only becomes a factor when analyzing the data and you include race as a data point after the fact.

      That's how you get "disparate out", one of the more evil principles in the SJW tool box.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    11. Re:Did anyone think it would be otherwise? by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Further, the fact that more people of a particular race are persecuted is not a reflection of bias in the data, rather a bias in the prosecution.

      Not necessarily....black people DO commit a large proportion of violent crimes than other races in the US, per capita.

      They are only about 13-15% of the population, but commit vastly more violent crimes in the US.

      Skip to about 1:09 on the video to get to the meat of the presentation.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    12. Re:Did anyone think it would be otherwise? by nedlohs · · Score: 4, Informative

      No he's making a very simple argument.

      You have two sets of populations. Say, hypothetically, the exact same percentage of each set carries contraband around, Members of one set are stopped and frisked with no probable cause more often than the other. That set will have a higher rate of arrest for that contraband not because they are more likely to have it, but because they are more likely to be searched.

    13. Re:Did anyone think it would be otherwise? by karmatic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "So there is a genetic reason to have bias about hiring people - some people are just "born lazy and ignorant"?"

      Not so much lazy and ignorant as a combination of factors. If you look at performance of individuals in western societies, factors representing success correlate pretty well with IQ, to a point. Generally, we see about 80-85% of performance being innate (genetic), while around 15-20% is environmental. We see the same thing in physical performance - no amount of work will make an Olympic athlete out of someone without the body for it.

      Black culture is certainly toxic, but it's also a reflection of genetics. They feed back on each other. There has been a ridiculous amount of money spent over decades trying to solve the black-white achievement gap, yet it doesn't work. It can't work.

      https://www1.udel.edu/educ/got...

      There are population differences between the black and white population in the US that are compounded by the effects of poverty, malnourishment, and poor education.

      Poor education, culture, and poverty feed back on themselves - it takes only a single student to disrupt an educational environment, so if you have a higher percentage of special needs students (or simply disruptive ones), there will be a greater percentage of classes where it's difficult for children to learn. The ability of a school to fund smaller classrooms is a function of its funding, which is often a function of where it's located and its taxbase. Poverty tends to concentrate individuals into areas where mass transit is an option, and so you get a perfect storm of a population that is already dealing with a lower mean IQ coupled with poorer education across the board.

      This is also why voluntary busing can help with education, but only to a point. If you bus the non-disruptive students to better schools, they benefit from being removed from their disruptive classmates. If you bus the disruptive classmates as well, you harm the education of wherever they are bussed to.

      I went to one of the former schools - black parents with above-average children who wanted their children to receive the best possible education would choose to send their children to my school. They were driven to succeed, and accountable to their families, and it did not adversely affect our education, but it helped theirs significantly.

      So, no, it's not that they are born lazy, or ignorant. Those traits may be present as a class as a function of IQ, but like anything else individuals are individuals, who vary greatly. We can draw conclusions about a population, and estimate likelihood based on those conclusions, but you never really know what an individual will do until they are given the chance to do it.

    14. Re:Did anyone think it would be otherwise? by mpercy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, I am unaware of any women currently on any NBA rosters. Ignoring the small different in men vs women in the population, about half of random people will have 100% likelihood of not being on an NBA team, and about half have a 99.999% likelihood of not being on an NBA team. Those probabilities may still add up to the same thing, but practically, if I meet a random woman black or white, I still can be absolutely certain she is not on an NBA roster.

      Saw a TV ad once for a medical show about a man born without a penis getting a "bionic" one. But the blurb said "Andrew is the only person in Britain born without a penis due to a 1 in 20-million condition". I was forced to infer that women in Britain are born with penises.

      That, or that people insist on using gender-neutral pronouns even when doing so leads to silliness. Similarly, sportscasters have a checker history of referring to important "firsts" by "African-Americans" except that they sometimes aren't African-American at all...they may be actual Africans from African countries, or may be dark-skinned people born in Britain or elsewhere in Europe ("European-Africans"?).

      E.g.

      http://www.gelfmagazine.com/ge...

      What does Formula One driver Lewis Hamilton have in common with former heavyweight champ Lennox Lewis? They're both famous athletes named "Lewis," of course, but they also have the distinction of being two of the most recognizable African-Britons on the planet. What, you've never heard the term African-Briton before? Perhaps you, like certain media outlets we know, need to learn how to use the term "black."

      Here's ESPN's correction after Hamilton won last weekend's Canadian Grand Prix:
      "On a June 11 Mike and Mike in the Morning news update on ESPN2, Formula One driver Lewis Hamilton, the first black person to win an F-1 race, was termed an African American. He is from England."

      Here's how the Charlotte Observer expressed regret:
      "A story in Monday's Sports section misidentified Lewis Hamilton as Formula One's first African American driver. It should have said he is the series' first black driver. Hamilton is British."

      Lennox Lewis was also regularly mislabeled, usually by columnists discussing the "African American" dominance of the heavyweight division.

      Of course, it's not only athletes who have to deal with this strange combination of political correctness and geographic ignorance from American writers. Brits Naomi Campbell and Thandie Newton have both been referred to as African Americans. (Newton at least has the African part down, as she was born in Zambia.)

      Maybe as punishment, the journalists should be forced to listen to a lecture on the differences between African-Americans and black people by Gary Sheffield.

  2. fx(Race,Gender) = {Income, Crime} by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 5, Insightful

    >> artificial intelligence is discriminatory based on race, gender

    Better keep the AI away from income and crime statistics organized by race and gender then. It could form some pretty political incorrect opinions pretty fast...

    1. Re: fx(Race,Gender) = {Income, Crime} by HornWumpus · · Score: 3, Informative

      The most prosperous parts of Africa are the parts that were the most developed during colonial times.

      You better make sure no AI sees that data either.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  3. Training data by Theaetetus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not that the AI or algorithm has a bias, but that it's trained or given inputs that have that bias. For example, in the parole system, the software was given inputs that included not just details of the crime and sentence, but subjective ratings by guards who may well be racist. As usual, garbage in leads to garbage out.

    1. Re:Training data by Theaetetus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Can you cite where that "information" came from?

      https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2017/07/05/algorithms-replace-your-biases-with-someone-elses-biases/:

      But as Wexler’s reporting shows, some of the variables that COMPAS considers (and apparently considers quite strongly) are just as subjective as the process it was designed to replace. Questions like:
      Based on the screener’s observations, is this person a suspected or admitted gang member?

      And:

      The New York State version of COMPAS uses two separate inputs to evaluate prison misconduct. One is the inmate’s official disciplinary record. The other is question 19, which asks the evaluator, “Does this person appear to have notable disciplinary issues?”
      ... An inmate’s disciplinary record can reflect past biases in the prison’s procedures, as when guards single out certain inmates or racial groups for harsh treatment. And question 19 explicitly asks for an evaluator’s opinion. The system can actually end up compounding and obscuring subjectivity.

      By definition, you can't claim that system is objective when it calculates a number based on "an evaluator's opinion".

    2. Re:Training data by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 4, Informative

      90% of murdered blacks were killed by blacks, whilst 83% of murdered whites were killed by whites. And 57% of all murders were commited by blacks. Was it 99%? no - but it wasn't far off from 90%, the real statistic...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  4. Re:Let's not make AIs too human... by Rockoon · · Score: 3, Funny

    Dude its right there in the summary. Equitable outcomes instead of equitable opportunity. A future where no matter how hard you try to fail, the A.I.s wont let you.

    --
    "His name was James Damore."
  5. Re:Let's not make AIs too human... by harrkev · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yes, a race where we attach weights to the good runner so that everybody finishes the same, no matter how hard they trained or how fast they are.

    --
    "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
  6. Had to read pretty deep... by Junta · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So the real story in their cherry picked example is two fold:
    -It's wildly inaccurate, and Northpointe's product should be put out to pasture and never used, period.
    -A system is being used to influence punishment that is not open to auditing because 'proprietary'.

    Note that the systems explicitly did not have knowledge of race. So we have two possibilities:
    -Some criteria that correlates to race is triggering it
    -The system is perpetuating existing bias in perception and reality. For example:
          -"Was one of your parents ever sent to jail or prison?" could easily cause the ghosts of prejudice that caused unjust incarceration to recur today.
        -"How often do you get in fights at school?" Again, if one is subjected to racial tension, they may unfairly be a party to fights they didn't ask for.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    1. Re:Had to read pretty deep... by b0bby · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, I read through the ProPublica article and my takeaway is that the systems are flawed and should be reviewed and either fixed or scapped. If your algorithm is supposed to predict recidivism, and it fails to do so, then it's broken. The fact that it fails to do so in a racially baised way is really icing on the cake.

  7. It's simple, really... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    ....we just need to develop a SJW AI to harangue the other AIs about their biases, real or perceived.

    We can then offload all political nonsense to the AIs, who will be too busy fighting with one another to go full Skynet on the rest of us.

  8. Think of the children! by thegreatbob · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Or, rather, adopt the mindset that an AI is somewhat like a child. A child that grows up in a (racist/sexist/whatever)-ist household is statistically more likely to turn out fairly similar, as is a child whose school curriculum holds such biases. The people implementing/training these things are going to (hopefully subconciously) impart their own biases upon them, or at least the biases present in the training datasets. If you train a parole-bot with all of our (US, but probably most places) historical parole data, of course it's going to be quite racist! I don't know what the 'proper' solution is, but I feel like attempting to manually adjust the AI after the fact is a terrible idea; to me, it makes more sense to manipulate the training data set until you get a reasonable result.

    --
    There is no XUL, only WebExtensions...
  9. Re:Biases are reality based by pastafazou · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Um, wrong. Blacks aren't more violent. Current popular black culture is violent, which is teaching black youth exposed to it to be violent. Asians aren't "good at math". Most Asian cultures put more of an emphasis on math at an earlier age than western societies. Non Asian students studying overseas from an early age are also "good at math". And children with an Asian ethnicity but born and raised in western cultures are just average at math.

  10. Re:Biases are reality based by imgod2u · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The problem is making policy targeted at individuals based on statistical correlation of a group. We have this individualistic notion in the US at least that every person can forge their own path in life.

    That narrative doesn't work when there are systemic barriers put in place pre-emptively due to statistical analysis.

    Very few people deny the hard numbers that black people (in the US) commit more crimes. Or that chinese/japanese/korean (in the US, not all "asians") 1st and perhaps 2nd generation people are more academic. I haven't looked up the women and navigation statistics.

    The problem comes when you take that general statistic and start making policy that target individuals. E.g. "Looking for a data analyst? Hire that asian-looking guy!"

    Even worse when it comes to measures that perpetuate said statistic. E.g. "he's black, so let's assume he's guilty of a crime until proven otherwise".

  11. More generally, by tietokone-olmi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    AI has a transparency problem. A massive, huge one. This'll be made worse as people learn to trust the computer, and to regard it as their friend.

  12. Re:Of course it does snowflakes by thegreatbob · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm going to argue that in the context of training AIs (neural networks, esp.) on data sets that we may very well be imparting biases on them. If the conclusions present in the data were arrived at by biased means (in this context, I'm suggesting historical prolific racism/sexism), those biases should be present in the behavior of the resulting construct.

    That aside, attempting to compensate by overriding the output of the AI with some sort of counter-bias indeed seems like a terrible idea.

    Probably making my points here less relevant, I did not see any direct references to neural networking; if these are all just human-programmed algorithms (lacking the abstraction of the neural net stuff), I don't have much else to add.

    --
    There is no XUL, only WebExtensions...
  13. Re:Biases are reality based by Sasayaki · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sure, and that's totally fair. The issue comes when, say, 60% of JobsRequiringNavigatingSkills are men and 40% are women, and people say "this is unfair".

    To be honest, though, it depends on the job. Men have, typically, much more upper body strength than women, so are more suited to being things like garbage men. Yet nobody's clamoring for equal numbers of women to be garbage *people*.

    Yet they are for firefighters, even though firefighting is basically a job where you turn upper body strength into saved lives, simply because they want to be seen as "equal".

    People are different and have different things they're good at and bad at. Most HR people are women even though that's a comfortable, high paid, safe job. And I'm okay with that.

    --
    Check out my sci-fi book "Lacuna" at http://goo.gl/MVxX8
  14. Re:Biases are reality based by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You're jumping to the end too quickly.

    Blacks are convicted of crimes more often, certainly. Does that mean they're more violent, or that they get caught more? Or that they live in worse situations than whites? Are Asians particularly good at math, or do Asian parents favour certain qualities that lead to more favourable math outcomes? Are they in more stable communities so their kids have a better opportunity to study math? Is it cultural or innate? Are women actually bad at navigating, or is it that we're less likely to take little girls out to go camping and get experience at navigating? Is that your own bias, since I've always heard that women are better at navigating?

    We actually have statistics that white people just aren't convicted as often for drug offences despite having similar or higher rates of use and dealing. Based on conviction data, a machine learning system would internalise the bias that blacks are more likely to have an involvement with drugs, despite that not being true. Garbage in, garbage out, right?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...
    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/e...
    https://www.washingtonpost.com...
    http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/...

    (Notice that those articles are from 2009, 2011, 2013 and 2014—this is not new data.)

    So generalities are not necessarily based in reality. Indeed, your claim that 'Asians are good at math' is particularly bad since Asia is HUGE and there's no way everyone from that area of the world is good at math. And as a half-Chinese guy that's okay at math but much worse than my white partner, and who knows plenty of Chinese people that have no affinity for math at all, I feel like a lot of these generalities are based on folklore and a few selective tests that aren't really representative of ability.

    The USA and Canada are not the bastions of equal opportunity that they purport to be, not for everyone. First Nations people in Canada and black people in the USA are consistently disadvantaged through broad government policy.

    So all this to say that getting good, clean data for machine learning systems that remove human bias is incredibly difficult, since most humans are unwilling to admit their biases don't necessarily have a basis in reality, or are the wrong conclusions drawn from incomplete knowledge of data.

  15. Re:Biases are reality based by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Blacks are convicted of crimes more often, certainly. Does that mean they're more violent, or that they get caught more? Or that they live in worse situations than whites?

    It means that the first 10 times Johnny White gets caught stealing gum, he gets a warning by the shopkeeper, the next 5 times the shopkeeper calls the cops and he's taken home by the cops, then the 16th time, he's formally warned, having that be the first time there's any formal record of his misdeeds. Tyrone Brown gets charged the first time, and gets 10 years "to make an example of him".

    That's why the conviction rate isn't a good statistic, the data shows that the entire system has biases.

  16. The problem is that the AI gets things wrong by XXongo · · Score: 5, Informative

    The problem is not that the data set reflects the reality. The problem is not that the AI makes mistakes, but that the particular mistakes the AI makes reflect the bias of the society that programmed it.

    The link in the summary is to an article which is itself a summary. From the original (here: Machine Bias There’s software used across the country to predict future criminals. And it’s biased against blacks.), the software attempted to predict the probability of future offenses of criminals on probation. It did not, of course, always get it right. But when the actual percentage of re-offenses was compared to the predictions, the AI got it wrong differently for blacks than for whites. Here's what the article said.

    We also turned up significant racial disparities, just as Holder feared. In forecasting who would re-offend, the algorithm made mistakes with black and white defendants at roughly the same rate but in very different ways.
    The formula was particularly likely to falsely flag black defendants as future criminals, wrongly labeling them this way at almost twice the rate as white defendants. White defendants were mislabeled as low risk more often than black defendants.

    1. Re:The problem is that the AI gets things wrong by cayenne8 · · Score: 3, Informative

      The problem is not that the data set reflects the reality. The problem is not that the AI makes mistakes, but that the particular mistakes the AI makes reflect the bias of the society that programmed it.

      I believe that the newer ways of "Deep Learning" methods of teaching AI will address these concerns

      Sounds like just faulty programming on that article you referred to...it said this for the training of their AI:

      "orthpointeâ(TM)s core product is a set of scores derived from 137 questions that are either answered by defendants or pulled from criminal records. Race is not one of the questions. "

      So, it seems...that while the AI got it wrong on race, HOWEVER the AI algorithm wasn't even USING race as a factor....

      And Eric Holder?

      I hardly hold him in esteem as a neutral observer/actor in any situation involving race.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    2. Re:The problem is that the AI gets things wrong by yndrd1984 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      the particular mistakes the AI makes reflect the bias of the society that programmed it

      Except that this appears to be just speculation: Imagine if (for whatever reason) black American men in a certain situation (income, neighborhood, etc) have a 10% recidivism rate, while white men in the same situation have a 20% recidivism rate. The AI has to give a single number for both groups (since race is deliberately hidden from it), so it guesses (say) a 15% chance of re-offending. So it over-estimates the chances that a black man will re-offend while underestimating the chances for a white man - without any racial bias whatsoever.

      Ironically, giving it race as an input would allow it to make more accurate predictions and appear less biased.

      There's a chance I've missed something, but barring that, all this demonstrates is that people don't understand statistics and have a strong urge to explain everything as racism.

  17. Re:Biases are reality based by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Blacks are vastly more violent per capita than Whites, as shown by the DOJ random surveys asking about crimes one has been a victim of in the past year, then asking particulars about who did it. Blacks are vastly over-represented in assaults and robberies in the US, though all felonies are also committed more often by Blacks per capita. Particularly interracial crime is overwhelmingly Black-on-White rather than the reverse, over a 25-to-1 ratio per capita. For rapes it's 95% certain to be a ratio of hundreds to one. (No W on B rapes reported in the issues of the survey I've been able to find, which is extrapolated to "less than 10", while the DOJ extrapolated tens of thousands for each year for B on W rapes.) This is from lengthy, over 20-page, victim surveys sent to several thousand members of the general population each year, with strong follow-up to get all surveys filled and returned. It isn't cherry-picked or biased by cops and prosecutor's decisions, it's first-hand reports from people who were victimized.

    A large law-review published study I read of sentencing in federal criminal courts, which compared similar situations (charges, prior records) statistically show only a very slight bias against Black men compared to White men, a somewhat larger bias against White women compared to Black women (possibly due to Black women being more likely to have dependent children), and a huge bias against men of either race compared to women of either race.

    "... your claim that 'Asians are good at math' is particularly bad since..."
    Go look at standardized math test scores, for instance the math GRE. The average Asian man is at the 98th percentile compared to Black women, and Black women are at the 2nd percentile compared to Asian men. If we broke out just the Han Chinese and Korean ethnicities the gap would be even bigger, other Asian ethnicities don't do as well, but so what? It's another bit of prior information to take into account when figuring likelihood of being good at math in the absence of more reliable information. It still makes sense to prefer the Korean guy to the extremely rare Black woman with the same score on a math test when hiring for math-heavy job, since there is a much higher chance that the Black woman's high score was in error since it is much further from her population's average (reversion to the mean).

  18. Persecution by XXongo · · Score: 4, Informative

    "Further, the fact that more people of a particular race are prosecuted is not a reflection of bias in the data, rather a bias in the prosecution."

    In this case, "persecuted" was more accurate.

    Data is Data. It cannot exhibit a bias.

    I can only surmise that you're not an experimental scientist. Data has bias all the time.
    In physics (my field) the bias usually has no social consequence-- astronomical statistics, for example, are biased toward bright stars (since they're much easier to see than faint ones, and hence overrepresented in the data set). In social "sciences," however, the bias very often does have social consequences. SAT scores from children whose parents spend tens of thousands of dollars on SAT Prep courses, for example-- surprise!-- score better on SAT exams than ones who don't. The data shows a correlation of SAT score with parental income. Is this real? Better correct for the SAT-prep course effect before making a conclusion.

    Data is biased. All the time. Be ready for it.

    ...Plus, being from the Guardian, I am skeptical that they didn't twist the data some to obtain their desired outcome, which ironically touches on the subject of this story.

    Huh? MIT Tecnology Review and Propublica were the source. The link in the summary was this: https://www.axios.com/algorith... which linked here: https://www.propublica.org/art... and here MIT Technology Review

  19. Re:racial bias is faulty programming by butchersong · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You can't have AI that learns on its own and have AI that isn't racially biased unless you artificially code blocks to it reaching certain logical conclusions. Then of course you've just made a dumb AI. The entire point of big data is to ferret out patterns in the noise.

  20. Re:racial bias is faulty programming by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Informative

    It's easy to provide AI with data. It's hard to make it understand the limitations and biases of that data. For example, the data shows more black people carrying illegal items, but mostly because the police stop and search them more frequently than white people.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  21. Re:racial bias is faulty programming by karmatic · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Indeed, I would consider racial bias to be a subset of "faulty programming."

    Far from it. A system that lacked the racial bias reflected in reality would by it's very nature be flawed, and racially discriminatory. It would have to be skewed in such a way that it disproportionately benefited specific populations based on their race in the interest of "not being biased".

    A simple example to illustrate the point, using something that's not as polarizing as criminality:

    Suppose we wanted to estimate cancer risk for individuals. As is often the case in statistics, the goal is to estimate the values of unknown attributes using known attributes.

    In this hypothetical scenario, white people have double the cancer risk of black people. We've also decided that for reasons of policy that it's immoral to judge people on the basis of their skin color, whether or not that actually correlates with risk.

    If we looked at basketball players (for example), we might see that white people tended to play basketball individually, and focused on activities that could be done by themselves (shooting longer distances), while black individuals tended to grow up in urban environments with busier courts, and that they would focus on shorter shot distances, and skills which would contribute better to 5 on 5 games.

    If we train a model using that data, we could easily find ourselves in a situation where the average shot distance ends up correlating with one's risk of cancer, because cancer correlates with race, and race correlates with shot data. This is normal, and expected, because the underlying data itself reflects this reality.

    Since blacks have higher criminality rates, and higher recidivism rates, any just risk assessment algorithm is going to end up biased against black individuals. This is true whether their increased crime rates are due to poverty, intelligence, broken families, economic inequality, bad education, increased use of welfare, take your pick.

    At the end of the day, the correlation won't tell you why - just that it's there. If the risk is higher for black individuals, and it doesn't assign (on average) a higher risk for black individuals, then the algorithm is a bad algorithm, because it's been weighted in such a way that it will disproportionately favour black individuals. It's social engineering that sends people of other races to prison more often in the interest of political correctness.

  22. Re:racial bias is faulty programming by karmatic · · Score: 3, Interesting

    For example, the data shows more black people carrying illegal items, but mostly because the police stop and search them more frequently than white people.

    ... which is itself based on the observation that black people are more likely to carry illegal items.

    This is a problem that customs deals with all the time. They discriminate in their searches because it's significantly more effective. In Canada, for example, Americans going to Whistler have their electronics searched because there is a high amount of illegal work. Americans going to Alaska are searched for guns (because they found so many).

    They have non-profiling days where all selection is random, and they have mandatory times when everyone gets searched. They do this to validate their discrimination models, and waste a lot of time finding very little.

    Evidence-based policing is going to end up racist, because reality is racist.

  23. Re:racial bias is faulty programming by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... which is itself based on the observation that black people are more likely to carry illegal items.

    That's a circular argument. We stop more black people so we find them carrying illegal items more often, which must mean they carry more often so we should stop them more often.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  24. Re:racial bias is faulty programming by Sique · · Score: 3, Informative
    The problem in this particular case was something completely different. The program was weighing socio-economic factors like schooling, relation to parents and siblings, financial troubles, all those things that can predict recidivism. And if you had too many of them counting against you, it predicted you as a future criminal. The problem was that many white criminals come from a quite sound background, and most of the factors used to predict the future criminal career were ok with them (good schools, healthy relationships etc.pp.), giving them a good score, better than reality. They were twice as likely than predicted to become repeat offenders. On the other hand, blacks often have many factors counting against them, and thus the program gave them a quite low score, lower than reality. In fact, they were only half as likely to become repeat offenders than predicted by the program.

    It was determined, that the program gave too much weight to the sheer number of factors counting against the person instead looking how bad some of the factors were. It would rather give a white guy with repeated offenses against other's sexuality a good score (because for him, only one factor looked bad, all others were ok, like steady income, no drug use etc.pp.) than a black charged with theft, because he might have been a homeless school dropout, with no known siblings or caring parents.

    --
    .sig: Sique *sigh*