Are America's Non-Compete Laws Too Strict? (nrtoday.com)

Slashdot reader cdreimer shared an article from the New York Times: Idaho achieved a notable distinction last year: It became one of the hardest places in America for someone to quit a job for a better one. The state did this by making it easier for companies to enforce noncompete agreements, which prevent employees from leaving their company for a competitor... The result was a bill that shifted the burden from companies to employees, who must now prove they have "no ability to adversely affect the employer's legitimate business interests." The bar for that is so high that Brian Kane, an assistant chief deputy in the Idaho attorney general's office, wrote that this would be "difficult if not impossible" for an employee to do...

For the most part, states have been moving toward making it easier for people to switch teams... The most extreme end of the spectrum is California, which prohibits noncompete agreements entirely. Economists say this was a crucial factor behind Silicon Valley's rise, because it made it easier for people to start and staff new businesses. But as states like Utah and Massachusetts have tried to move closer to this approach, legislators have run into mature companies trying to hold onto their best employees... A recent survey showed that one in five American workers is bound by a noncompete clause. They cover workers up and down the economic spectrum, from executives to hairdressers.
Two economists tell the newspaper that since 2000, U.S. workers have changed their jobs less and less, which is sometimes blamed on strict employment contracts as well as the occupational licensing laws which affect a third of America's workforce. The Times reports that noncompete clauses ultimately end up keeping workers' salaries lower, "because most people get raises when they switch jobs."

Comments

Not leaving the job? Ha - try keeping it!

[MindPrison]

While I understand the need to switch jobs and stay competitive (who pays best, gets the best talents etc.), this isn't likely to be a future scenario. It's more likely that every employee will fight like mad to even have a job.

Who works 3+ years for the same company these days? Or rather: who manages to KEEP a job for 3+ years? Sure, there is a few - but I bet it ain't the majority, not the ones I've been talking to - not me, I'm almost in my 50s and I can't remember the time I ever worked for a company for 3+ years, 2-3 years at best, if I was lucky.

Re:Not leaving the job? Ha - try keeping it!

[Z00L00K]

It depends on the job and the employer if it's worth to stick around.

But having "non-competitive" laws is almost like Jim Crow laws.

Re:Not leaving the job? Ha - try keeping it!

[dreamchaser]

I am fifty. While I have had a couple with brief tenures, the majority of my jobs have been 5-10 years or more. It wasn't even a matter or being stagnant. I got raises, promotions, and challenging work that I enjoy. I would say it depends on the person. Choose the right jobs and have the right skillset and one does not have to jump too often.

Re:Not leaving the job? Ha - try keeping it!

[Anonymous Coward]

On the West Coast the stigma is that if you're somewhere more than 3 years you aren't good enough to find a better job. In the Midwest the stigma is that if you've not had a position longer than 3 years then you're not competent enough for companies to keep around.

Re:Not leaving the job? Ha - try keeping it!

[Z00L00K]

In many countries such clauses aren't valid.

Re: Not leaving the job? Ha - try keeping it!

[Space cowboy]

I'm almost in my 50's too. I've worked at Apple, currently in R&D, for the last 13 years. I sometimes poke fun at my boss for being a newcomer, because he's only been here for 12.5 years or so... There are people in my group who've worked there for 20+ years.

Re:Not leaving the job? Ha - try keeping it!

[angel'o'sphere]

In Germany a non competition clause must be:
o time limited
o focused on a certain industry
And: payed!!!

If I want a certain employee not to compete I have to pay him for the above period if I fire him. And if the job is in a bracket where this makes no real sense, e.g. he is not a researcher/scientist or director, clauses like that are invalid in the contract anyway.

Other way around, if the employee is quitting, I'm not sure how that is handled.

Re:Not leaving the job? Ha - try keeping it!

[Durrik]

It really depends on where you work. I'm over 40 and my time on the job has been increasing as I go along
- first job was 6 weeks (company closed)
- second job was 20 months (got fed up with trying to work in the system and got a better offer).
- third job was three years (split between two companies the second one died off)
- forth job was four years (got a better job and didn't want to do on-site support in the jungles of Guyana)
- fifth job was six and a half years. (left because they gave my company vital function to experts in the field: 2 new grads in China).
- Current job is going on 4 years, don't plan on leaving it till I retire

I'm one of the newest people in my group too. Most people have been there at least 8 years, some at 15+ years. At 42 I'm in the middle of the pack when it comes to age too (we did recently get a bunch of young wippersnappers in their 30s). It is still software engineering. Though I do pay price of it not being very dynamic and bleeding edge it is stable.

As I and others have said its all depends on where you work. Some places are very unstable, others are stable.

Re:Not leaving the job? Ha - try keeping it!

[Anonymous Coward]

If the law is reasonable, it should be the same: the only one who receives any value from a non-compete is the company (because it's protected from the ex-employee going to a competitor), while the ex-employee bears all the costs (he cannot search for or accept a job in a competitor, so his possibilities are reduced). That means the company should pay the ex-employee for that, whether it was a firing or they quit.

Then again, expecting the law to be reasonable can be an exercise in futility, sometimes.

Re:Not leaving the job? Ha - try keeping it!

[Comrade Ogilvy]

This got hashed out in CA years ago, and IIRC the court ultimately agreed with the ex-employee that in a high skills field the ex-employer would need to pay more than the former salary to compensate for the aging of skills and loss in promotion opportunities. So, effectively non-competes are unenforceable in CA because no employer wants to put in the contract that if the employee chooses to leave the company may decide to give them a big fat raise and pay them for two years to do nothing, i.e. to achieve clear enough "meeting of minds" to make the contract enforceable was too onerous a burden for employers.

Idaho has chosen to go the other way. Which gives a strong incentive for the most skilled workers to leave the state.

Re:Not leaving the job? Ha - try keeping it!

[Comrade Ogilvy]

If you are genuinely better than the average bear and getting regular promotions, there might not be a good reason to jump jobs.

It is the people who are perceived as average or below average that companies will happily leave plugged into a nowhere position, where the wages and skills will stagnate. The best way to get out of that rut is change jobs, where they will be forced to stretch themselves in something new.

Re: Not leaving the job? Ha - try keeping it!

[OrangeTide]

None of my last 11 jobs lasted more than 2 years. My current job has lasted me 7 years. The reason is the pay is good and the work is agreeable. And I would never had gotten to this point without non-competes.

"Land of the Free"?

[Anonymous Coward]

So, let me know if I have this right:

Americans need to stay in their jobs to have good health insurance
American corporations can fire almost anybody anytime, for any reason
Americans have almost no vacation time away from work
And now:
Americans can't move to a different job, if it happens to be in the same field.

So explain to me why this isn't corporate slavery.

Re:"Land of the Free"?

[hwstar]

You are correct, but you missed one....

Americans have been denied access to the courts and a jury trial by the use of binding arbitration by employers.

Re:"Land of the Free"?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are a person who has rules out signing a non-compete contract, how many high quality jobs are left for you?

Re:"Land of the Free"?

[Anonymous Coward]

"American corporations can fire almost anybody anytime, for any reason"

Not quite.

All companies are banned from firing some based on a reason explicitly listed in Federal law, or their state's laws. That said, it's pretty easy to fire someone for unsatisfactory performance, after setting unrealistic goals, rather than explicitly state they were breaking the law.

A large number of states have passed the grossly misnamed 'Right to work' laws, better named 'You have no rights' or 'Right to fire'. Meaning that a company doesn't have to give a reason why they're firing you. Which makes a perfect end-run around all the laws: Try to prove you were fired for a Federally protected reason, when the former employer didn't even give a reason.

Oddly enough, I moved from one state to another, to accompany my wife while she had a fellowship. As my boss was in one state, my two-up in another, I didn't think there was going to be an issue. But approval was delayed a few weeks. Turned out HR was concerned ... because I was moving from a 'Right to Work' state to one where workers still had a few rights. Gotta wonder about the mentality of HR, when I had actually achieved a '5' (rare top rating) on an annual review ... it's not like I'm going to need to be fired for incompetence. Just the control mentality of management, and their desire to have absolute power over their underlings.

Re: "Land of the Free"?

[BarbaraHudson]

It is. The civil eat ended personal slavery. Corporate slavery is still legal.

I don't think they drove the slaves to extinction by eating them. Corporations, on the other hand, will eat you alive.

Re:"Land of the Free"?

[AtariEric]

The law prohibits the government from enslaving its people.

The law practically enables and encourages powerful private organizations to take up that role instead.

Re:"Land of the Free"?

[Applehu Akbar]

I'm not a huge fan of the California regulatory environment in general, but banning non-competes outright was, as proven by the ongoing performance of Silicon Valley, a great idea. Let's hope it will be the first state to try allowing competition in the healthcare field to control costs. As with banning noncompetes, this will be vilified as a horrible idea until someone actually tries it.

Re:"Land of the Free"?

[micahraleigh]

If Americans lived in a state of corporate slavery then why:

Do corporations only make up half of business activity?

Would most Americans rather work at a corporate job?

Are there more people trying to get INTO American than get OUT of America?

Re:"Land of the Free"?

[SandorZoo]

GP is presumably thinking of at-will employment, not right-to-work law.

Traditionally in Europe, it was much more common than the US to have written employment contracts for everyone, even part-time 18-year-olds stacking supermarket shelves. There were defined procedures for firing, where the employer had to be able to prove the employee wasn't doing his or her job (e.g a number of written warnings must be given, extra training provided, etc.)

This is changing, with zero-hour contracts, Uber style quasi-employees, the gigging economy and the like. For better or worse, commercial competitiveness is slowly trumping employee protections.

Too strict for who?

[thegarbz]

Companies: No they aren't strict enough. We should ensure that an employee who doesn't want to work for us never works anywhere again!!!

Employees: Too strict, can't feed family, hate job, help!

Enforcement for "rank and file" workers?

[swb]

Of course non-competes are ridiculous, a kind of indentured servitude, but does anyone working in a "rank and file" kind of job (say, making less than $100k) have any experience in having them enforced against you?

My employer once asked that I sign one (after about 2 years of employment). I gave it to a friend who was an employment lawyer and he said that unless I was given "consideration" (title, raise, etc) specifically tied to signing it, it was unenforceable in my state. His advice was just to sign it and know it wasn't enforceable.

My theory has always been that unless you're some kind of high wage "key player", most of the time it's just not worth an employer's time and effort to enforce them. They have to take some time and effort to figure out where you're working, know enough details about the job to know if its actually competitive (made harder if the new employer is an actual competitor), and if they get that far, actually turn to attorneys to enforce the contract. And none of this takes into account the potential for subterfuge -- quitting to become a "freelancer", moving out of state or a new employer actively furthering subterfuge by hiring you freelance for a period or hiring you under a bogus title.

I don't see any employer action happening for less than a $10,000 outlay and that kind of spending being just does not seem worth it for "ordinary" employees.

Of course there may be exceptions, like an "ordinary" employee who happens to work closely with a particularly important trade secret or filling a job in a very narrow field where the opening itself may have been the subject of gossip among the field's community.

Re:Enforcement for "rank and file" workers?

[omnichad]

unless I was given "consideration" (title, raise, etc) specifically tied to signing it, it was unenforceable in my state.

In most states, "continued employment" counts as consideration.

Re:Enforcement for "rank and file" workers?

[hwstar]

It depends on the state. Some allow continued employment as consideration, others do not.

Re:Enforcement for "rank and file" workers?

[aaarrrgggh]

In my field (architectural engineering), the biggest issue is an employee leaving and starting their own company. This could be someone just below $100k, and there is a high chance they would take a client with them.

But I am in California, so there really isn't much you can do.

Re:Enforcement for "rank and file" workers?

[aaarrrgggh]

Agree that the latter is the real concern... along with the ability for such a manager to sabotage the remaining company by encouraging turnover.

Re:Enforcement for "rank and file" workers?

[Entrope]

Companies can handle that without using non-compete clauses.

As an example, companies I have worked for consider employee and customer lists to be proprietary information. Engineering and management staff sign NDAs that explicitly cover employee and customer contact information. I have known senior management to call managers who left when the senior manager suspected the separated manager of soliciting employees who were still at the first company (to come work for at a separated manager's new place) and "read them the riot act". Current employees were free to initiate negotiations, and some did, which annoyed the senior management but was not considered actionable.

Re:Enforcement for "rank and file" workers?

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Yes, it is understood that a former manager should absolutely not be asking around for former colleagues/reports to go to his/her new company. But there is nothing that can be done about former colleagues who take the initiative, and the former boss can rightly pick up the referral bonus if they are asked to forward the resume.

Re:Enforcement for "rank and file" workers?

[Entrope]

Supreme Court precedent says that your employer cannot (by default) claim work that you do outside the scope of your employment with them. Even if it is related to work that your employer does, depending heavily on the specific facts, you may be the actual author for copyright purposes. If it is not related to work that your employer does, not done on their time or with their equipment, and not done with a desire to help them, then it is not within the scope of your employment.

I don't know whether you can effectively contract away your future copyrights, but I do know that when I raised the issue of open source development (not related to my employers' lines of work), employers have been willing to revise that clause in the contracts I signed when I started working for them. If your employer isn't willing to do that, I would take that as a sign that they are not a reasonable employer.

Re:Enforcement for "rank and file" workers?

[Frank Burly]

About 10 years ago a friend with a very rank-and-file job foolishly and truthfully answered "yes" to a prospective employer's question about non-compete agreements; as a result they said they would not hire him until the non-compete period had ended. This is in California, where such agreements are plainly unenforceable—the employer did not want the potential headache (or to piss off a peer-company that served a mostly different market segment).

More famously, sandwich chain Jimmy Johns made their sandwich artists sign a noncompete. http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblo...

Re:Enforcement for "rank and file" workers?

[Dutch Gun]

This happened to me as well, although this was at the time of employment, not after two years (which seems a bit odd to me). I was concerned about some boilerplate legalese in my employment contract, because basically it stated I couldn't be hired in my field for like a year or two after I quit, which is ridiculous. The PR person dismissed it as just that - legal boilerplate, and assured me that it would never be enforced. I was younger at the time, and needed the job, and so signed. A slightly older and wiser colleague of mine insisted that part of the contract be struck out before he signed. These days, I would likely do the same. If it would never be enforced, then there's no reason for it to be in the contract.

When I eventually did leave, the "no-compete" clause was not enforced. Legally speaking, it probably would never have held up in court, and it would have been far more damaging for a company to do something like that to a former employee. It's not like I was taking any vital trade secrets, other than a general working knowledge of some of their code and technology.

Re:Enforcement for "rank and file" workers?

[nnull]

This is exactly what's stagnating the whole industry. Such ridiculous NDA's that are completely unenforceable but the legal departments sue you anyways just to waste time. They know it's unenforceable, but they don't care. I've been sued by a competitor because I hired their sales guy, their claim is that I stole all their customer lists by hiring him (It didn't matter that I was selling to their clients even before hiring him). This was mired in a 2 month lawsuit where I finally decided to hire a legal department from out of state to deal with it, because all the local guys know each other and were just milking it on both sides. Suffice to say, it was ended in a day in court.

This is also what's causing such a dry spell scenario in the whole industry and why I can't hire any sales and application engineers anymore.

Please, put your stupid NDA's in the shredder. They don't help anyone. I don't even have an NDA in my facility. If you think you can do better than me, go for it!

Re:Enforcement for "rank and file" workers?

[swb]

How is that not a contract signed under duress?

Re:Enforcement for "rank and file" workers?

[omnichad]

Because you're completely free to leave. And in at-will employment states, employers are completely free to fire you regardless.

Re:Enforcement for "rank and file" workers?

[omnichad]

P.S. And otherwise every EULA would be unenforceable because they are all accepted under "duress." You don't have any choice but their way or no way.

Re:Enforcement for "rank and file" workers?

[micahraleigh]

Your contract might as well say, "Employer has the right to assign new surnames to each of your children".

No way can that get enforced, although they could fire you.

Re:Enforcement for "rank and file" workers?

[micahraleigh]

Wow. They put up a lot of free market paraphenalia in their stores ... but it sounds like they are more along the lines of feudalism.

Re:Enforcement for "rank and file" workers?

[david_thornley]

That depends on the state. In California, such clauses are unenforceable. In Texas, you're screwed.

Well, DUH...

[Zontar The Mindless]

The Times reports that noncompete clauses ultimately end up keeping workers' salaries lower, "because most people get raises when they switch jobs."

Which is exactly why employers try to impose them--in order to deny their workers leverage in salary/benefits negotiations. This subverts the free market for labour. Which is exactly why non-competes should be illegal.

TL;DR: If I'm valuable enough to keep out of the hands of a competitor, then you can pay me like it.

In a country where your entire quality of life

[rsilvergun]

depends on your job and where there is virtually no safety net and few governmental services left I'd say the bloody laws shouldn't exist in the first place. That said I'm not naive enough to think I can keep the mega corps from using government to their benefit simply by doing away with the thing (e.g. that anarcho-capitalism that's all the rage with the kiddies nowadays). I'd rather see robust safety nets and social services in place than waste my time fretting about these abuses. As mentioned if your entire quality of life didn't depend on landing a really sweet job this would be less of an issue.

Equal bargaining power?

[darthsilun]

IIRC from the BLAW 20x or 30x classes I took a long time ago, for a contract to be binding the two parties have to be equals.

Someone that needs a job is – generally speaking – not ever going to be the equal of a potential employer that's dangling a contract saying "sign it or no job." Such a contract should be unenforceable AIUI. And you always have the option to strike out that clause as you're negotiating. (Whether the potential employer accepts it is something else.)

Now, whether a court is going to agree that such a contract is unenforceable is a different question.

As for me, when I resign from my jobs I don't tell my soon to be ex-exployer where I'm going. When they ask, I tell them I haven't decided and I'm taking some time off before I decide what I'm doing. Well, Saturday and Sunday are time off. It's really none of their business where I'm going next.

So between a) (that clause of) the contract being generally unenforceable, b) it being none of their business, and c) I'm perfectly capable of not using any of previous employer's IP in my new job, I personally feel like I'm in pretty safe territory. It has served me well for the 30+ years I've been working as a software developer.

And BTW, IANAL. Ask your own lawyer for advice in your particular situation.

Re:Equal bargaining power?

[Entrope]

Like the AC said, you do not remember correctly. Even contracts of adhesion (where one party is sufficiently powerful enough to say "take these terms or leave them", usually as a standard form contract) are generally enforceable, although ambiguous terms are construed against the interests of the drafter/profferor, and very rarely an individual clause will be held unenforceable for reasons of public policy.

Unions

[coolsnowmen]

Screwing over large amounts of your work force is how unions start.

Re:Unions

[Hognoxious]

You can interpret that two ways. If it was intentional, bravo.

What jobs have non-compete clauses?

[MobyDisk]

What jobs and fields are employers seeking non-compete clauses? I signed a non-compete on my first programming job. Thereafter, I have not done so. In one case I was already working there and new contract paperwork came through and I refused. My boss sided with me and it was fine.

My hope is that people can simply just refuse to sign them and they will go away. But my experience may be an exception, not the norm. I'd like to hear other people's experiences.

Re:What jobs have non-compete clauses?

[nnull]

Yes, they do. They also do their own sheeting and printing.

Funny how few notice the common fault

[DeplorableCodeMonkey]

1. Slavery.
2. Non-competes for 99.95% of workers.
3. H1B and H2B visas and the current fight over them (see "we won't let you get your immigration service pick until you acquiesce to more cheap labor" as exhibit A).
4. Outsourcing.
5. "Free trade" by which we mean, companies are allowed to move production to other countries and leave easily the moment the workers get uppity.

At the end of the day, it comes down to a simple fact: the elite doesn't want to pay a fair wage, so they'll use state power to drive it down. Some methods are more extreme than others, but it is a more extreme or less extreme on the straight forward sin of treating workers like property that works for you.

I'm sure some pedantic ass or triggered SJW is going to shriek "muh racism" or "muh free marketz," but the fact remains that the mentality and motives are related.

Re:Funny how few notice the common fault

[zifn4b]

At the end of the day, it comes down to a simple fact: the elite doesn't want to pay a fair wage, so they'll use state power to drive it down.

Socialize the cost, privatize the profits.

Contract voided on contract end

[heson]

In Sweden these are legal, but voided when your employment ends. I.e you can have a non-compete clause, but it is only enforceable as long as you pay the salary.

Re:Contract voided on contract end

[nnull]

That makes a lot of sense to me. How are NDA's handled? I hope they're handled the same way. If you want to protect your IP because I looked at it, better pay me.

14th amendment

[iamacat]

You can't sign away your freedom in a contract Little Mermaid style. If a company doesn't want you to work for a competitor, it must keep providing you some benefit, such as an annual sum of money, in return for as long as such a contract lasts. And you are free to break the contract and forefeit the benefits.

Re:14th amendment

[Entrope]

Due process and Privileges and Immunities are in the 14th amendment, and that is how "freedom to contract" (to the extent it is still recognized by courts) is protected by courts. It's not considered a question of slavery.

Not that hard

[Murdoch5]

If you work in a company which makes a product Y, and you leave to another company which makes a type of product Y, the only way you hurt the original company is to bad mouth them or out right steal their IP. If you do neither, your okay and hence don't violate a non-compete.

Re:Not that hard

[nnull]

You'd be surprised how much of the manufacturing business steals from each other. Nobody goes after it because of the huge legal costs involved and nobody even bothers to care. They scare you with big lawyers, but it still goes on because none of them can prove the other didn't invent it themselves. As an engineer, I can pretty much get the gist of your place in about 5 minutes and figure out how to implement it in my facility pretty easily. If I didn't do that, I wouldn't have been able to create what I've created in the first place and I'd be a broke engineer, living in a van down by the river.

Intellectual property has been stagnating the whole industry, bringing us back into the dark ages.

An example of excessive regulation?

[DavidHumus]

I hear a lot, especially from one side, about how excessive regulations are crippling the US's ability to compete but never about this sort of regulation that hampers individual employees.

How about it, anti-regulation crowd?

*crickets*

Re:An example of excessive regulation?

[nnull]

I find a lot of facilities that want to force me to sign NDA's are the ones that aren't following any regulations, because they don't want you to talk about how shitty their place is.

Yes they are too strict.

[gurps_npc]

Non compete should have a rule that they can not exceed twice the severance pay period. I.E. If they are giving you 5 months salary, they can give you a non-compete for 10 months. They should also have a geographical range equivalent to their reasonable customer range. If all their clients are in New York, you should be free to do business in Chicago. If all there clients are in America, Canada should be free for you.

Re:Yes they are too strict.

[whoever57]

Why?

Non-competes are bad for society as a whole. They should be banned.

Must be signed before starting (Canada)

[FeelGood314]

Many companies in Canada have you sign agreements like this on your first day of work. Almost nothing you sign like this at work is enforceable since your boss has told you to sign it. For it to be valid you had to agree to it and sign it before starting. This does create a problem in promoting someone into a position where they do end up with company trade secrets.

Stockholm syndrome, or shills?

[whoever57]

Despite evidence that banning non-competes is good for society as a whole, lots of people pop up to defend them or claim that they are unenforceable.

If they are mostly unenforceable, then banning them would have little effect.

Re:Stockholm syndrome, or shills?

[thebigmacd]

There is a difference between legally unenforceable and socially unenforceable. If people think something is legally enforceable when it is not, they enforce it on themselves.

However, if the contracts themselves were actually banned, with fines and/or compensation associated with violation of employment law, they would pretty much disappear.

Fascism - look it up.

[Anonymous Coward]

Fascism. Odd how such an important part of recent history has been completely forgotten and turned into an empty symbol. Even intelligent discussion (rare but it does happen) gets shut down by the Godwin bots.

The philosophy and ideas NEVER die after the battles they can not be stopped completely, it is a non-stop fight which has NOT been waged as the very same ideas get implemented in new ways which could manifest in equally bad ways in the future with nobody seeing it coming. History rhymes, it never repeats and if all we do is memorize dates we will not be equipped to recognize it.

Yes, except you forgot some really important ones:

[Brannon]

1. blog posts exaggerate and pick out the extreme cases, just because Idaho passes some bone-headed restrictive law doesn't mean that every state makes it hard to change jobs. In California most non-compete clauses are essentially unenforceable. 2. "Americans have almost no vacation time away from work" : this is hyperbolic. Most Americans in tech positions have 2-3 weeks of vacation plus company holidays. 3. there's a reason that America has 5% unemployment and a thriving economy

That is why

[rholtzjr]

This is why one should never signed a non-compete clause of ANY contract that did not stipulate that one would be compensated for the time frame that one could not compete. Anybody who accepts a non compete without any compensation in any profession is not thinking it out clearly or just doesn't care. Either way it is not very smart to sign your rights away to not be allowed to make a living.

Re:If only it was just NDAs

[PPH]

All this will fall apart if:

You take a few months off between jobs. Your ex-employer wants to know where you are going? I'm just going to hang around the house, drink beer and watch daytime soap operas.

You get a job involving a serious security clearance. Want to know where I work now? Sorry, classified. You have an issue with that? People in black government SUVs will be around to kick in your door, take you into custody. And shoot your dog.

Ex-employer being a bit too 'proactive'? Employers aren't stupid. They know when they have hired a key person by the amount of noise the last employer made when they left.

Ex-employer 'introduced' you to a company and now you can't work there? I assume you know your industry and who all the players are. The ex will have to demonstrate otherwise, that you depended on the introduction. It's not like the McDonald's employees can't see the Burger King across the street.

Re:How about owning employees 24x7x365?

[Entrope]

If your employer wants you to sign a contract saying that, politely explain that you think it is important that you be able to create things -- that do not compete with what you do for your employer, and do not take away from the time you are supposed to be working for them -- that you retain ownership of. If they disagree, walk. Maybe I have been lucky to have unusually reasonable employers, but this has never been a sticking point for me, and employers have been willing to modify the contract to only cover subjects related to my work for them.

It goes both ways

[stikves]

Or at least it should go both ways. If the employer want to keep me, I should be compensated accordingly, and similarly if I want to stay I need to demonstrate sufficient utility for the company.

Here in California, we are a right to work state. They can terminate me tomorrow, and I reserve the right to leave anytime (with a customary two weeks notice, but that's not strictly necessary). This keeps the balance, so that I keep working, and they provide good benefits, as long as we want to continue the relationship.

Of course the situation is not perfect, but I think this was one of the drivers of Silicon Valley's success. People form, disband, join, and leave companies all the time. The ideas flow, and good products are generated.

Easy solution

[BarbaraHudson]

This is probably an attempt to make Idaho more "business-friendly." Problem is, talent that deals with IP is mobile, and good luck getting them to move to Idaho in the first place.

ITech companies need a pool of talent to draw from - nobody is going to set up business where they can't hire any locals without getting sued. So, Idaho, you just shot yourself in the foot.

And if you accidentally get suckered into such a deal, just move to a jurisdiction outside Idaho for your next job. Unless you're into potato farming, it shouldn't be hard, and you'll be eager to move elsewhere after a while anyway. After all, Idaho pays 30% less than the national average. Only 3 out of 44 counties beat the US average.

Re:Easy solution

[BarbaraHudson]

I'm not a lawyer, but the devil is in the details....

The will be a race to the courthouse in that case. If the employer files suit in Idaho first, the employee is screwed. If the employee challenges the Idaho non-compete provision in say, California, by filing in a California courthouse, the employer is screwed.

No - the employee can ask for a change of venue, since they now live in California - and California will likely grant it, especially if the company has ANY business presence in California (for example, do they ship to California? Have a distributor in California?).

Re:Easy solution

[R3d M3rcury]

It does become interesting with Remote Work,

I live in California. I am a California resident. The company that I work for is incorporated in Idaho. I quit and go to a competitor.

Now, as a resident of California, I believe I'm protected by California laws. But I have broken the law in Idaho by quitting and going to a competitor. Because this is an interstate issue, I would assume that a Federal court would need to get involved.

Re:Easy solution

[BarbaraHudson]

f the company has ANY connection with your new state of residence (customers perhaps) you can argue for a change of venue. After all, they're doing business there, they're already bound by the laws there. :-)

Re: CDREIMER ABUSES THE DMCA

[__aaclcg7560]

Ad revenue. LOLOL you are a liar now as well? You know geeks don't click on ads.

Not every nerd is a geek. Based on my data, nerds do a lot clicking.

So you are a 40 year old man, on slashdot arguing with 14 year old kids? Yea that sums up the Creimer we all know and love. A child molester lul.

I've been reassured by these 14-year-old wankers that that work in IT for $200K per year, they have homes and family, travel around the world, and love Russian dicks. I'm sure they behave like "adults" in polite society and around their families.

Re:Yes, except you forgot some really important on

[LynnwoodRooster]

I see Hungary, Germany, Malta, and the Czech Republic beating the US 4.4% unemployment rate. The official EU wide rate is nearly twice the US rate, and 24 of the 28 countries have a higher unemployment rate than the US. Is that really what you wanted to highlight?

Changing jobs in Idaho?

[mnemotronic]

Idaho, with the highest proportion of cattle mutalations in the lower 48, 'cept we call it Bar-B-Q. Idaho, protecting Mormons from the ravages of Canadian beer for 153 years. Idaho state pastime: survivalist rumors. State motto: more further wester than Montana. To paraphrase U Utah Phillips who probably wasn't the first to say it: Idaho; where the men are men and the sheep are nervous.

Re:Changing jobs in Idaho?

[eskayp]

Actually we Idahoans tell jokes about Montana sheep herders.
Seriously, Idaho's competitive status is quite good.
You will have to look long and hard to find better onion field labor.
And lookit the money we've saved by educating our workforce accordingly.
Them education cuts have allowed some handsome tax incentives for our rich folks.
After all why should we allow our stoop labor to take all their trade secrets to the San Juaquin valley?

Re: CDREIMER ABUSES THE DMCA

[__aaclcg7560]

You can't copyright your name. Go ahead and "reclaim" cdreimer from GitHub, you lying weasely fat fuck.

This is my account on GitHub. Maybe you meant "creimer" in Germany?

Re: CDREIMER ABUSES THE DMCA

[__aaclcg7560]

You can't copyright your name. Go ahead and "reclaim" creimer from GitHub, you lying weasely fat fuck.

Have you stopped to consider why I publish content under a pen name? My legal name isn't that unique.

I'm surprised that no one made the connection to the guitarist of Women.

http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/504488/christopher-reimer-women-guitarist-dead-at-26

Re: CDREIMER ABUSES THE DMCA

[__aaclcg7560]

Now he's posting Amazon affiliate links as AC. Creimer give it up buddy.

I don't post as AC. This troll isn't reusing my affiliate link like the other trolls do.

No

[zifn4b]

Companies should have to compete over talent just like every other market.

Re:Why Idaho?

[BarbaraHudson]

Why work tech in Idaho? On of the poorest and least educated states in the union? Because in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.

Bullshit. In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is considered to be delusional. He's also pretty f*cked when it goes dark or in a cave or indoors.

Try this experiment the next time you have a power failure at night. Close your eyes. People's instinct is still to try to see in the dark, even when they can see that they can't see. Close your eyes, and you'll find it much easier to navigate. And that's without practice. Imagine a lifetime of practice, for everyone. The one-eyed man comes along and most of what he's saying about "seeing" sounds more like new-age crystal crap.