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Comcast Says Should Be Able To Create Internet Fast Lanes For Self-Driving Cars (theverge.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Verge: Comcast filed comments in support of the FCC's plan to kill the 2015 net neutrality rules today. And while pretty much everything in them is expected -- Comcast thinks the rules are burdensome and hurt investment, yet it says it generally supports the principles of net neutrality -- there's one telling new quirk that stands out in its phrasing: Comcast now says it's in support of a ban on "anticompetitive paid prioritization," which is really a way of saying paid prioritization should be allowed. "The commission also should bear in mind that a more flexible approach to prioritization may be warranted and may be beneficial to the public," Comcast says in its filing. The key qualification is "anticompetitive," which is a term that could be interpreted in a lot of different ways depending on who's defining it.

Comcast doesn't just see paid fast lanes being useful for medicine, however. It also thinks they might be fair to sell to automakers for use in autonomous vehicles. "Likewise, for autonomous vehicles that may require instantaneous data transmission, black letter prohibitions on paid prioritization may actually stifle innovation instead of encouraging it," the filing says. This makes Comcast's position pretty confusing. Comcast says it opposes prioritizing one website over another. It even suggests the commission adopt a "strong presumption against" agreements that benefit an ISP's own content over competitors' work, but it's not clear how benefiting one car company or telemedicine company over another is any different.

121 comments

  1. Already have 100 Gbps Internet3 by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Why should we use slower Comcast lanes in medicine?

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    1. Re:Already have 100 Gbps Internet3 by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yep.

      And hands up who wants their automotive safety to depend on a Comcast Internet connection?

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      No sig today...
    2. Re:Already have 100 Gbps Internet3 by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2

      Yep.

      And hands up who wants their automotive safety to depend on a Comcast Internet connection?

      OK, heart surgery under way.

      Scalpel check

      (2 hours later)

      What do you mean it's reached it's data cap and it's buffering? This patient is going to die!

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      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    3. Re: Already have 100 Gbps Internet3 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's funny cuz it's trueeeee.

      Hehe

    4. Re:Already have 100 Gbps Internet3 by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      And hands up who wants their automotive safety to depend on a Comcast Internet connection?

      Everyone whose car provider uses a Comcast business internet connection to provide data to the vehicle, even if there is a failover provider.

      From the Summary:

      It even suggests the commission adopt a "strong presumption against" agreements that benefit an ISP's own content over competitors' work, but it's not clear how benefiting one car company or telemedicine company over another is any different.

      Prioritizing car or telemedicine over website is not benefiting one car company over another. It's a restatement of one of the design concepts of the internet: quality of service is an existing prioritization and yes, indeed, there are services that need realtime data. You can delay a website for a second and nobody really cares, except the zealots who demand full-speed data access at all times because they paid for 50Mpbps and they are being ripped off if a packet is delayed for any reason. If a car gets a data packet ten seconds late it could have serious consequences; if you see your twitter feed delayed by ten seconds it makes no difference at all.

    5. Re:Already have 100 Gbps Internet3 by MercTech · · Score: 1

      Any autonomous vehicle that is dependent on a network connection should be relegated to the off road hobby market. If dependent on a network connection; a RF jammer would be a quick ticket to causing major traffic accidents.

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      NRRPT/RCT
    6. Re:Already have 100 Gbps Internet3 by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      If dependent on a network connection; a RF jammer would be a quick ticket to causing major traffic accidents.

      That statement applies just as well to any AV that uses mesh networking to communicate with neighboring vehicles.

    7. Re: Already have 100 Gbps Internet3 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are being ripped off you pretentious charlatan.
      Nothing would need to be slowed down if they didn't pocket all that taxpayer money instead of building the internet to be better.

  2. What they are really saying by reboot246 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We're against net neutrality when it hurts our bottom line and we're for it when it helps our bottom line. They don't care about customers; they care about profit.

    1. Re:What they are really saying by interkin3tic · · Score: 2

      No, it's simpler than that. It's just a campaign to confuse people. It's pure FUD to get people to stop caring about it.

    2. Re:What they are really saying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, they're saying: "We want to do whatever we want to our customers, but we want all providers to be punished if they start using lowering prices to compete with us"
      That is a mafia-like statement, specially how they do operate now: "We split the market between all of us so no-one can compete with lower prices", They're making a communist capitalism (capitalist companies sharing equally the market without competing to earn their customers).

    3. Re:What they are really saying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait,

      Comcast expects me to trust that they'll deliver me safely to my destination?

      It's Comcast for fuck's sake.

    4. Re:What they are really saying by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      It's ok, when I got FUDed with "comcast wants to help self-driving cars" I suddenly decided I'm not so sure I want a self-driving car anymore. If it works as well as my cable modem, I'm pretty sure I will crash 3-4 times a day, and a technician will hover over my corpse saying "you should have used our modem".

    5. Re:What they are really saying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They (Comcast) don't care about customers; they care about profit.

      If Comcast cares about profit, and customers are the source of their profit, it's illogical to say or think Comcast doesn't care about its customers.

      Not to mention, the people who work at Comcast are just like you and me -- they don't work for free. Dare I say we all work for and have a desire for profit.

      Just as your failure to a make a profit for yourself and your family would be indication of your lack of care for yourself and your family, Comcast would be doing its employees and customers a huge disservice if they suddenly stopped caring about profit as well. This would be similar to the kind of dysfunction you see in government, but at least with Comcast you can cease service or go to a competitor. We don't have that choice with government.

      Profit is a very good thing. It's the mechanism that motivates us all to work and do a good job.

    6. Re:What they are really saying by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Exactly. By making the whole thing so confusing and weighed down with technicality that nobody would understand it, they get the vast majority of people to switch off and not care. At that point, they get to do whatever the fuck they want, and only a tiny minority will notice until it's already enacted and too late.

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      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    7. Re:What they are really saying by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Not really communist, but definitely an oligopoly. Or legally-backed market collusion (which is illegal normally)

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      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    8. Re:What they are really saying by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      I don't trust those fuckers to get a grumpy-cat meme email to it's destination. Why would I trust them with life-critical data?

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      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    9. Re: What they are really saying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's using Republican Party trigger words.

      It's like somehow tying NN to climate change denial or gender neutral washrooms.

    10. Re:What they are really saying by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Pure Astroturf. Do you get paid by the post, or is there a quality metric involved? Or hopefully, you only get paid if nobody refutes your bullshit.

      Comcast demonstrably doesn't care about the customer insofar as to give them any choices other than "how much more do you want to pay us." They care about locking the customer in, and rent-seeking their wallet empty. They don't give two shits about the customer's well-being or satisfaction, because they don't have to. That's what being a regional monopoly means. Would you have posted that AT&T cared about their customers right before they were broken up? They were a profitable enterprise too, and according to you, profits = caring about your customers that you are siphoning those profits from.

      In case the first two sources weren't enough, here's another that you can't astroturf away: Comcast's customer satisfaction has been below the industry average for 16 years running. And that's in an industry that everybody dislikes. If they care so god damn much, why don't they take the feedback from these surveys that happen every year since the millennium turned, and act on them? Why are these scores basically a flat line barely over 50% Again, because they don't fucking need to. The money rolls in whether the customer is happy or not - why marginally decrease the all-important profits on something as silly as customer happiness when they aren't going anywhere?

      Oh, but yeah, they care about their customers. Right. I think you misspelled "institutional investors" - that's who Comcast and their telco friends really care about making happy. And the only thing that does that is profits and increased stock value.

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      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    11. Re:What they are really saying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      . . . about the customer's well-being or satisfaction, because they don't have to. That's what being a regional monopoly means.

      Many, if not most, consumers have multiple choices for ISP via multiple methods of delivery. If a customer is unimpressed with one ISP, they may choose another. If a customer lives in a location with limited ISP options and Internet service is a priority for them, they should consider moving to another location with better options.

      Having many choices for Internet service is a lifestyle choice much like deciding to live by the ocean because you love to surf. However, you shouldn't expect to be able to surf in the middle of the breadbasket. Similarly, ISP choices will be limited in certain locations as dictated by customer demand and government regulation.

      The money rolls in whether the customer is happy or not . . .

      So, your argument is customers are paying for service they are unhappy with? Why would they do that to themselves? Of course, the answer is they are happy enough with Comcast to not move to a competitor. Otherwise, Comcast would be out of business. No one is forced to purchase Comcast service or any other service for that matter.

      Do you get paid by the post . . .

      My payment comes in the form of educating the ignorant and unwitting. Judging by your comments, you've over-paid.

  3. Enough with the lies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Quit selling internet saying it's the fastest when you actively slow things down. I don't care if you think other things are more important, I've paid the same price and expect the same service.
    Also there's nothing about self driving cars that requires super low ping. Routes are precalculated and the real time data coming from on board sensors shouldn't have to go over the net for it to operate. Data coming from other vehicles doesn't need to go over the net immediately as the relevant cars are within wifi range.

    1. Re:Enough with the lies by ma1wrbu5tr · · Score: 1

      "Routes are precalculated and the real time data coming from on board sensors shouldn't have to go over the net for it to operate. Data coming from other vehicles doesn't need to go over the net immediately as the relevant cars are within wifi range."
      -- This is 100% correct. They simply cannot make a self driving automobile in the US that would depend on on the internet for navigation as there are way too many internet and cellular dead zones. Maybe when they invest those USF funds and those state subsidies into last mile projects they have been promising for years, then there might be a case to be made for this.

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      Why can't we go back to using jumpers to configure slot adapter cards? Why? I say!
    2. Re:Enough with the lies by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      I can think of one thing that would be useful for self driving cars that would benefit greatly from low latency. The use of RTK for getting highly accurate positions using the CORS network that the US has and supplementing with state CORS networks if available. I know it is being used by some MnDOT and MetroTransit vehicles but can't find the article that I read stating as such but did find a paper from the University of MN when they were doing some trials.

      Then again for something like that maybe having a dedicated system that continuously broadcasts the current (last few seconds) of data to all would be better as it would be even lower latency and wouldn't require massive amounts of bandwidth.

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      Time to offend someone
  4. Fast Lanes For Self-Driving Cars, net neutrality?? by victorsosa · · Score: 2

    Is it not, that the reason why some ask for net neutrality?

  5. "Prioritization" by DivineKnight · · Score: 1

    You know, in the good old days of the internet, if you wanted faster speeds, you'd order up a thicker pipe. If you ordered a thicker pipe, and one site on the internet couldn't deliver faster upload speeds (your download speeds), it meant that site needed to upgrade its pipe as well. If you ordered up a thicker pipe, and many, if not most of the internet, couldn't deliver faster upload speeds (again, your download speeds), it meant your ISP, or your ISP's ISP, or your ISP's ISP's ISP needed to upgrade their network, at which point they either did, or you switched providers.

     

    1. Re:"Prioritization" by toejam13 · · Score: 2

      Switching providers may not help because they may be oversubscribing their backbone or uplink just as much as your own ISP.

      I don't have an issue of ISPs providing different latency tiers or different levels of guaranteed bandwidth. But the choice should be on the customer buying the connection. The ISP shouldn't be using quality of service or resource reservation protocols to improve traffic to their own services (like VoIP) and not those of their competitors. Nor should third parties be allowed to pay the ISP to alter traffic flows within that ISP's network to the detriment of other third parties. If MegaCorp X wants to speed things up to their site, they need to work with the ISP to add their own PoP.

    2. Re:"Prioritization" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Switching providers may not help because they may be oversubscribing their backbone or uplink just as much as your own ISP.

      The thing, that should be their problem that they have to fix.

      I don't live in the US so I don't know the specifics of your laws there, but where I live the ISP isn't allowed to sell me something they can't deliver.
      I pay for 30/30 Mbps and I get it. If I regularly don't get it they have to fix the issue or tell me that they can't deliver. Then I can switch to another ISP or they can switch me over to a cheaper 10/10 Mbps line.

      And no, it has nothing to do with the size/population density of the US. If that would have been the case then the problem wouldn't exist in any town with a population of over 50,000.
      It is all about large ISPs having a cartel where they divided their market to screw over their customers and the government giving them handouts with no strings attached.

    3. Re: "Prioritization" by guruevi · · Score: 1

      The problem is that ISPs refuse to allow large bandwidth providers to peer at higher rates with them. Additionally Obama era net neutrality rules allowed those same ISPs to zero rate their own content providers which is now on the chopping blocks.

      The main problem are the Obama-era mergers of baby bells into what soon will be AT&Comcast and it doesn't seem like Trump or Hillary have any intention to stop that.

      I would like for this FCC to not just remove the Obama regulations of zero rating but simply remove all regulations, both federally and locally of small players on the market. They can simply do this by taking back the profits the people have so far funded through various taxes, tax breaks and grants but have not been realized into fiber and copper in the ground by these companies, then rent out the usage of the utility to various companies.

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      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    4. Re: "Prioritization" by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      That's only half right. The Obama FCC declared fast lanes to be violations of their policy, along with (IIRC) zero-rating unless it was equally available to any company. This is part of what will get rolled back by losing Title II classification, so we'll likely be back to ISPs being allowed to do zero-rating preferentially for their own content.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    5. Re: "Prioritization" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Must be nice to live in a sane place.

  6. WRONGHEADED. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Comcast wants to essentially privatize what is currently public domain, rather than alternatively building out its own private domain. What a bunch of cunts. Build your own separate super-fast network and sell it privately, leave the rest of us *(the entire world)* out of your greedy rationalizations of monopoly and usurpation. Comcast is a giant sucking sound.

  7. In other news by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    we've always been at war with Eurasia.

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    1. Re:In other news by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      and next week it will be ATT/HBO. Our game of cable guys is our best show for the past 5 years.

  8. Bullshit... by jwhyche · · Score: 5, Informative

    My comcast internet service has been up and down for the past year. Every time I call to get it fixed I get the same song and dance. We are or have sent someone out to fix it and this is no longer a problem. Only to have it go down for a week or so later.

    So, if they can't keep my fucking cable modem up a month or so, why the hell should I trust them with a automatic car?

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    I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
    1. Re: Bullshit... by raind · · Score: 1

      Please don't use the public internet for communication to the vehicles.

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      Get up!
    2. Re:Bullshit... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > We are or have sent someone out to fix it and this is no longer a problem. Only to have it go down for a week or so later.

      Ask them for the number for your local Ombudsman. Once you have that information, lodge a formal complaint.

      Also, in the one apartment where I had problems like that, the insulation on the coax feeding into the west side of the apartment had cracked, leading to all sorts of out-of-spec things happening as the cabling warmed up.

      I'm surprised that they keep rolling trucks to you and failing to fix the problem; compared to the situation with the typical customer, that shit isn't cheap. They might even be _losing_ money by providing you data service.

    3. Re:Bullshit... by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      I switched to centurylink from comcast. The technician said the comcast guys had cut the wires centurylink uses with no other purpose than to make it slightly harder to switch. Mayhaps the comcast technicians cut the wrong line?

      Also, just to be clear, you're not renting your modem from comcast, are you? The way you phrased that makes it sound like you are, though being on slashdot, I would think you would know better than that. If you are renting, that's probably your problem. You're paying an outrageous rental fee on shitty equipment AND your internet is probably being used by a neighbor.

    4. Re:Bullshit... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My Comcast cable internet speed hits over 100 Mbps regularly and it's steady and reliable.

      Maybe the problem is you. Did you consider that?

    5. Re:Bullshit... by Cyberpunk+Reality · · Score: 1

      Look. Our country isn't a total cyberpunk dystopia (yet) so when corporations want to injure the public to improve their own position, they need to come up with some words to put in the mouths of their government puppets. The words don't have to make sense, or be a good argument. They only need to kind-of look like one. They're set dressing for our pretend democracy, nothing more.

      Oh, and once you accept the con that the quality of the argument they're making matters, they've already won.

      --
      Rule 35 of the internet: "If it can be hacked, it will be". - Charles Stross
    6. Re:Bullshit... by houghi · · Score: 1

      When I get an outage, it mostly take about 15 minutes, if I even notice. I always wait an hour and then call. The last time I did that I got a person explaining that there was an outage before I even could ask a question. (If you call for the outrage, we are working on it)

      I have used several providers for several reasons and used dialup, ADSL, Cable and now VDSL.
      And I could change providers right now and lose only a month in subscription.

      On the downside I am forced to take 35 paid holidays. Living in a socialist country sucks,

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    7. Re: Bullshit... by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Please don't use the public internet for communication to the vehicles.

      You don't expect car companies to build out their own communications infrastructure to provide data to their vehicles, do you? What communications system do you think they will use if not the "public internet"?

  9. Huh? That takes a special kind of stupid. by dgatwood · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No engineer in his/her right mind would ever even consider designing a self-driving car in such a way that it required instantaneous communication. There's too much potential for network failures even under ideal circumstances with a perfect signal, just from routing problems alone. And that's before you consider vehicles driving through tunnels, rain fade, spectrum congestion, deliberate interference, etc.

    Basically, the FCC asked, as part of people's filings, to come up with ideas for innovation that would be made impossible without paid prioritization. As expected, Comcast tried, and as expected, failed.

    Fundamentally, Internet service either works or it doesn't. If slowness causes something to fail, then the service doesn't work, and therefore the best that paid prioritization can do is give the customers the service that they paid for. If slowness does not cause something to fail, then paid prioritization serves no beneficial purpose.

    Therefore, there is no plausible situation in which paid prioritization can possibly be beneficial to consumers. Period. At best, it can only increase the potential for consumer harm, and at worst, it is the direct cause of consumer harm.

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  10. If you need that for your "self driving" car by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It isn't self driving at all, and I don't want to be in one either. If it needs that level of connection to drive itself then what happens when the connection cuts out even for a bit? Also who would want to sell something with that sort of ongoing cost attached if they could avoid it?

    Almost like they have a solution and are searching for problems, without regard for truth or even respect of the intelligence of the people they intend to pass the "problems" off to. If I was a government official and received this sort of reason I would be insulted, even if I didn't show it.

  11. Traffic shaping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Traffic shaping is discrimination of traffic based on the kind of traffic (internet traffic, since we're talking cars here) it is. Net neutrality is compatible with traffic shaping. Net neutrality means you can't discriminate based on the parties to the communication or the content of the traffic, if the traffic is roughly the same kind. There is difficulty determining the line between traffic shaping and net neutrality. But, this example is simply not a net neutrality issue. That is traffic shaping (prioritization is a form of traffic shaping). Net neutrality advocates should speak out against Comcast's misdirection. We can have net neutrality and traffic shaping. We just need to be careful how regulations are written so as to (a) get it right and (b) reduce or eliminate loopholes.

  12. Trolley problem by sheramil · · Score: 1

    Do ambulances automatically get higher priority than rich people in their cars, or does the ambulance's allowed speed depend on the bank balance of the patient?

    Will people who are allowed to go faster than everyone else be taxed appropriately, or can rich people pretend to be poor when it suits them?

  13. what are we going to do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    hook up some cat6 to every car and every car will have a maximum range of 100m?

    last i checked, comcast was a wireline provider. and we desperately need an administration change in washington before they gobble up any wireless, cellular, or satellite company.

    never mind the fact that "self driving" vehicles had better not be relying upon the "internet" for anything pertaining to the actual 'driving' of the vehicle. gps map or firmware updates when stationary and in some sort of maintenance mode are one thing, counting on the internet for telemetry from other vehicles, exact location-specific weather conditions, or traffic/train signals, etc? hell no!

  14. Funny! by Lumpy · · Score: 2

    Comcast cant deliver any of the bandwidth they promise. Their infrastructure is well over 10 years old and they REFUSE to upgrade it all over the place.
    They can barely deliver 50mbps to customers regularly and reliably, they have ZERO chance of getting anything wireless working for self driving cars.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:Funny! by wonkavader · · Score: 1

      Not sure on the details, but my experience with their 10 Mb product matches your statement: they had overloaded routers and high latencies throughout their network.

  15. Bandwidth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm sure that Comcast will be able to handle the absolutely absurd quantities of data created by widespread use of self driving cars.

    No, wait, I'm pretty sure this is a load of bullshit trying to make Net Neutrality seem less appealing. Yeah, that's it.

  16. Comcast's data caps by QuietLagoon · · Score: 1

    Comcast now says it's in support of a ban on "anticompetitive paid prioritization,"

    Yet comcast is in favor of, and even implements, data caps on their ISP service, while comcast's video on demand services are exempt from those data caps.

    .
    Data caps imposed upon competitors' video on demand services but not imposed on comcast's video on demand services are anti-competitive.

    1. Re:Comcast's data caps by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Yet comcast is in favor of, and even implements, data caps on their ISP service, while comcast's video on demand services are exempt from those data caps.

      Video on demand (OnDemand) uses cable TV channels, not internet data. And OnDemand data doesn't cross an exchange boundary.

      Data caps imposed upon competitors' video on demand services but not imposed on comcast's video on demand services are anti-competitive.

      Do you think there should be a cap on the amount of cable TV you can watch when you pay for "cable TV"? That's what you are calling for when you imply that data caps on internet data that will limit your access to competitor's internet streams should also apply to Comcast's video services.

    2. Re:Comcast's data caps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you think there should be a cap on the amount of cable TV you can watch when you pay for "cable TV"?

      This wouldn't even be a valid question if congress broke up ISPs so they couldn't legally own content or content delivery.

      That's what you are calling for when you imply that data caps on internet data that will limit your access to competitor's internet streams should also apply to Comcast's video services.

      Yup. If they have to use the ISPs data services, then the content provider shouldn't be able to dictate special treatment from the ISP.

    3. Re:Comcast's data caps by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      This wouldn't even be a valid question if congress broke up ISPs so they couldn't legally own content or content delivery.

      I asked about cable TV, not ISP. Comcast will ALWAYS own content and content delivery as a cable TV provider, and any laws that prohibit an ISP from also providing content (besides being stupid and harmful to the consumer) will not apply to the cable TV side of Comcast. (Stupid because that would prevent your ISP from being your mail server or having a web presence to deal with your account. That's 'content'.) And saying an ISP cannot own content or content delivery is also stupid, because content delivery is the JOB of the ISP, and is what people pay the ISP to do.

      That's what you are calling for when you imply that data caps on internet data that will limit your access to competitor's internet streams should also apply to Comcast's video services.

      Yup. If they have to use the ISPs data services, then the content provider shouldn't be able to dictate special treatment from the ISP.

      Comcast is not an ISP when it is providing OnDemand. Do you also think that you should be limited in the number of phone calls you can make via CenturyLink if you have DSL through them, because they have a data cap on the DSL? If you might run into a problem using Vonage for your phone via DSL you should also have a limit on the "data" you can use to make POTS calls, too?

  17. Re:Fast Lanes For Self-Driving Cars, net neutralit by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

    Bad analogy. A better analogy to what is proposing is that Comcast wants a toll road that's "faster". By "faster" they mean faster than what they have before but not faster than existing, competing roads. But you have to pay them whatever they'll charge. Your car manufacturer will also have to pay them for you to use your car. Also they get to dictate what kind of cars use the road. Also they sell cars themselves that will go faster than any cars you want to use--somehow. And if anyone else builds a competing road like your city, they'll sue them so a competing toll road doesn't get built.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  18. And consumers should be able to create a giant bin by elrous0 · · Score: 1

    To hold Comcast's bullshit.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  19. How about a different protocol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IP is a best-effort protocol.

    Maybe ATM can give you better reliability.

    1. Re: How about a different protocol by KGIII · · Score: 1

      No. ATM gives you e. coli.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  20. so when the brakes fail how long will I wait holdi by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 3, Funny

    so when the brakes fail how long will I wait holding the line for jay (not his real name) to help me with an deep foreign accent?

  21. well with comcast muilt-gig you can get your own p by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    well with Comcast muilt-gig you can get your own pipe*.

    Starting at $299/mo

    *home use only, 3 year contract required, $1000 install fee, you must rent our hardware at an added cost, limited part of our cable network only.

  22. fringe roaming is an issue as well as 1GB can cost by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    fringe roaming is an issue as well as small as 1GB can cost near the cost an new car as some networks bill $15-$20 a meg when roaming.

  23. Re:Huh? That takes a special kind of stupid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually it is highly like that when self-driving cars are deployed they will require constant connection to a centralized monitoring and control system and self driving features will be disabled if this connection is dropped, so Comcast is 100% correct, although I am not sure exactly how a fixed internet provider will be servicing self-driving cars, so that is another question.

  24. Bad example by hawguy · · Score: 1

    If self driving cars are using public internet (especially Comcast internet) for time-sensitive communication, they are doing it wrong. They should be using short-range real-time networks for fast local communication, and then when they need to talk to a server, they don't need to be in such a hurry.

    1. Re:Bad example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...Not to mention that Comcast delivers its internet through coaxial cable. Do they imagine each car trailing a long cable going back to its home?

  25. Different classes of service are a different thing by dlleigh · · Score: 1

    Net neutrality has nothing to do with different classes of service. If Comcast wants to offer a special class of service that has high-throughput and well-characterized latency, then there's no problem. That's no different than offering both high-speed fiber and slow dial-up service.

    What net neutrality prevents is Comcast offering such a service, but then charging customers differently depending on where they want to send their packets.

    Also, nothing would prevent Comcast from creating whatever restrictions they want on a private intranet. Just don't claim to customers that's it's part of the Internet.

  26. Some applications don't need the Internet by GoRK · · Score: 1

    If Comcast wants to fast-lane a single application like manufacturer-to-car communications on a private network there is and should be absolutely nothing to stop it. Not all applications need the Internet. Most any large ISP will happily sell you a lightning fast MPLS network, a mobile version of such (MPN, DMNR, dedicated APN), or lease a lambda or dark fiber for dedicated point-to-point traffic. These arguments are completely irrelevant to the discussion of Internet neutrality issues.

  27. Re:Fast Lanes For Self-Driving Cars, net neutralit by anegg · · Score: 1

    I'm confused; there isn't any reason why Comcast can't sell a particular service to automobile manufacturers, or self-driving car users, etc. Any ISP can provide a speciality service to anyone they want to provide it to, at least that is my understanding.

    I thought that the idea of net neutrality and common carrier status is that if I (a consumer) purchase a general purpose Internet service, Comcast (the provider), doesn't interfere with the data that I want to transmit/receive over that service, regardless of where the data comes from; and doesn't start charging more just because the data is coming from source A rather than B.

  28. Actually fixing the problem by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 1

    Therefore, there is no plausible situation in which paid prioritization can possibly be beneficial to consumers. Period. At best, it can only increase the potential for consumer harm, and at worst, it is the direct cause of consumer harm.

    Your title was "special kind of stupid". Here's a question for you:

    Background: The existing rule was notable in that 1) It was a gross overreach for the FCC, in that it was implemented under Title II classification 2) It actually does not completely or correctly implement net neutrality (in the way people expect when they use the term).

    My question: Since net neutrality is apparently so obvious that anyone who doesn't "get it" is stupid, can you come up with a regulation that solves the problems noted in the background?

    How about proposing an actual law that can be voted on in congress?

    It can be written as open source, Google and Microsoft can have their lawyers go over it, the public can read and review it, and then it can be presented to the legislature for implementation.

    We can say, in effect: "here is the correct solution, please implement it".

    Just to get things started, how about the law is implemented not solely for the internet, but as an anti-trust problem? We could have the law enforced by the FTC instead of the FCC, and therefore apply not only to the internet, but other forms of communication and trade as well. (For example: Visa and Mastercard must treat all clients equally, and not deny certain companies from using their services, or charge different per-transaction amounts for different companies.)

    And the law should have language that spells out the goals and guidelines, so that it can be used to cover new methods of communication and devices as they are developed in the future.

    In short, instead of calling everyone stupid and, basically, just carrying on, how about we do something to actually *fix* the problems?

    It can't be that hard, because see is as obvious.

    Why not work to actually fix the problems?

    1. Re:Actually fixing the problem by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Informative

      Background: The existing rule was notable in that 1) It was a gross overreach for the FCC, in that it was implemented under Title II classification 2) It actually does not completely or correctly implement net neutrality (in the way people expect when they use the term).

      IMO, it solves all of the most egregious problems. And I don't think it is an overreach. The purpose of Title II classification was historically to cover voice telephony. A large percentage of Internet users now do their voice telephony over broadband. Therefore, it is completely reasonable to treat the underlying broadband under Title II, as it would be impossible to enforce Title II on telephony companies without the underlying communication infrastructure being covered by similar laws.

      In short, instead of calling everyone stupid ...

      Whoa there. I didn't call everyone stupid. I respect some people who disagree with the Title II reclassification. I just don't respect people who make patently absurd claims, like saying that self-driving cars won't be possible without paid prioritization (when, in fact, self-driving cars barely use the Internet at all; they don't need it).

      Just to get things started, how about the law is implemented not solely for the internet, but as an anti-trust problem? We could have the law enforced by the FTC instead of the FCC, and therefore apply not only to the internet, but other forms of communication and trade as well. (For example: Visa and Mastercard must treat all clients equally, and not deny certain companies from using their services, or charge different per-transaction amounts for different companies.)

      In theory, you bet. The problem is that the FTC has been completely toothless for as long as I can remember. At least the FCC occasionally acts. :-)

      I'm not going to dig into the problem of peering agreements and the way they've been set up, as that's not my area of expertise. Instead, I'll focus on the consumer problems.

      The fundamental problem is that Internet service is a commodity. One provider that passes packets is as good as another, assuming they all provide the same quantity per unit time and with similar levels of quality. There are very narrow areas in which they can compete, mostly involving the amount of speed that they provide. So to provide any useful value-add, companies are forced to package unrelated services, such as cable TV, telephone, video-on-demand, etc. Because those services compete with other Internet services, but are almost always provided by servers within the company's network, those services are almost inherently less affected by network speeds than third-party services unless the providers take reasonable steps to ensure that services are not getting de facto throttled by insufficient external bandwidth.

      The ideal solution would be to pass a federal broadband access act that creates an unfunded mandate for states to provide fiber to every home and business by a particular date, owned by the state, and leased to any ISP that wants to lease lines. This would create a huge flurry of competition that would largely negate the need for any sort of additional net neutrality regulation. But the cable and phone companies would never let such a law pass.

      A slightly less ideal solution would be to take the leased line rules that currently apply only to telephone lines (IIRC) and extending them to all companies that own any communications infrastructure (whether fiber, coax, twisted pair, or cellular). Specifically, require that they make that infrastructure available to any ISP that wants to provide service, at a cost just above the cost of maintaining the wires. This would make it trivial to have proper competition in broadband. This would, of course, cause all of the existing ISPs to wet themselves, and they would find ways to guarantee that any such bill never saw the light of day

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    2. Re: Actually fixing the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Open source law? Anything is better than the crap being written by lobbyists. Let's start at state and local levels and make laws favor the human citizens again.

    3. Re:Actually fixing the problem by utahjazz · · Score: 1

      An actual law was proposed and voted on by congress: http://www.legisworks.org/cong...

      Here is the relevant text:

      It shall be unlawful for any common carrier to make any unjust or unreasonable discrimination in charges, practices, classifications, regulations, facilities, or services for or in connection with like communication service, directly or indirectly, by any means or device, or to make or give any undue or unreasonable preference or advantage to any particular person, class of persons, or locality, or to subject any particular person, class of persons, or locality to any undue or unreasonable prejudice or disadvantage

  29. Just eliminate common carrier status by Shotgun · · Score: 1

    If Comcast, et. al. want to prioritize traffic, that means they know what traffic is going through their lines. How else would you know how to charge OrgA more than OrgB. Ipso facto, they have to drop the argument for why they qualify for common carrier status. You can't say you know and don't know what's going through the lines in the same breath. Well, yeah, I guess they can...but, nobody has to believe it.

    If they're not going to be a neutral pipe, they can't logically continue to have common carrier status and will be responsible for any child pornography transmitted through their servers.

    --
    Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
    Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    1. Re:Just eliminate common carrier status by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they're not going to be a neutral pipe, they can't logically continue to have common carrier status and will be responsible for any child pornography transmitted through their servers.

      So you would be an active supporter of ISPs snooping on every bit of traffic that you send and receive because your ISP is now held responsible for any child pornography sen through their servers?

      So, are you a Fascist? or a Nazi? or a graduate of the Kim Jong Un School of "How To Terrorize Your Citizenry"?

      Seriously... I think inquiring minds will really want to know where you stand on this matter of "surveillance state" and "pervasive snooping" that you appear to advocate.

    2. Re:Just eliminate common carrier status by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you a graduate of the "Grab a strawman, drag it up to the top of the slippery slope, and ride it like a toboggan down to the loaded question school"?

    3. Re:Just eliminate common carrier status by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Comcast, et. al. want to prioritize traffic, that means they know what traffic is going through their lines.

      No, they don't. For example, the customer could mark traffic in the upstream TOS bits by how they want it prioritized. Cocmast could copy the TOS bits into the downstream direction by UDP/TCP port number or IPsec SPI, then use downstream TOS to do AQM at the head-end facing the customer.

      Last hop QoS is basically the only meaningful QoS: how is Internet shared among the members of your household, or among protocols (video vs. Bittorrent)? The correct price for this QoS is $0 because there is no high or low "priority" from Cocmast's perspective. You're apportioning the bits you paid for, that are shared with no one.

      For a first try, I would not even use the TOS to indicate priority. I'd split the 6 bits in half and build a two-level tree. Round-robin over all values of the MSB three bits (up to eight members of the household), then within each allotment round-robin over the LSB three bits (eight protocols, like video, web, bittorrent, per household member).

      This is how you QoS without necktie damage.

    4. Re:Just eliminate common carrier status by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the suggestion is that ComCast don't want that responsibility, and would rather take the hit on net neutrality to avoid it.

    5. Re:Just eliminate common carrier status by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they're not going to be a neutral pipe, they can't logically continue to have common carrier status and will be responsible for any child pornography transmitted through their servers.

      So you would be an active supporter of ISPs snooping on every bit of traffic that you send and receive because your ISP is now held responsible for any child pornography sen through their servers?

      So, are you a Fascist? or a Nazi? or a graduate of the Kim Jong Un School of "How To Terrorize Your Citizenry"?

      Seriously... I think inquiring minds will really want to know where you stand on this matter of "surveillance state" and "pervasive snooping" that you appear to advocate.

      Sounds like this AC is asking a reasonable question.

      Title II "protection" protects the carrier from being responsible for the traffic carried across their network.

      As part of US law enforcement's ability to enforce the law the technical implementation of CALEA (google it) was required. US law enforcement can then get a court order, if a judge approves the request, and presents the court order to the carrier. The carrier is then required to "tap" the network traffic of the person(s) named in the oder and deliver the traffic to US law enforcement. US carriers have CALEA requirements for both analog (think "traditional voice") and digital (think "data") traffic. If US carriers do not comply with CALEA requirements I believe there is a whole range of legal recourse available to US law enforcement agencies to get CALEA compliance from a US carrier.

      Let's take a look at the Comcast (Comcrap?) position. If they have Title II "protect", then all they have to do is provide CALEA access to customer traffic. If Comcast did not have Title II "protect", then they could be held legally liable for traffic carried across their networks that is in violation of US laws. Seriously, it's that simple a position for Comcast.

      In the argument presented by "shotgun" (30919), Comcast should not get Title II "protection". Quoting "shotgun":

      If Comcast, et. al. want to prioritize traffic, that means they know what traffic is going through their lines. How else would you know how to charge OrgA more than OrgB. Ipso facto, they have to drop the argument for why they qualify for common carrier status. You can't say you know and don't know what's going through the lines in the same breath.

      Another AC poster in the thread started by "shotgun" gives a reasonable explaination of QoS, but it is poorly applied here. Yes, QoS would solve the problem, if it's properly configured, and most network engineers that I have known (and I did data & Internet backbone networking for carriers for 20+ years) don't know how to properly apply QoS concepts to their networks; many just "copy & paste" from a book and hope it works right.

      In the "real world", no carrier ever trusts the QoS markings on any traffic that it receives from outside it's own networks; if they don't control the network settings, then they don't trust the traffic.

      So how might Comcast deal with "outside traffic" entering it's network and use QoS across Comcast's network? Comcast either deploys "trusted edge devices", like the Comcast cable modem that might also have voice ports, or contracts that specific parameters of the "untrusted packets" and how they are to be treated. Then Comcast can program the QoS & packet examination rules of it's network accordingly; if traffic matches the rules then it gets QoS "treatment" otherwise it gets "nuthin". This avoids the nightmare scenario where "untrusted traffic" attempts to obtain "DSCP = EF" QoS level (typically the BEST QoS class and generally reserved for voice calls by default) for any traffic that it presents to comcast's network. If all traffic gets "EF priority" then nobody gets differentiated QoS since everyone's traffic is equal.

      Now back to "shotgun's" argument. A carrier can examine any traffic that passes through it

    6. Re:Just eliminate common carrier status by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      If they're not going to be a neutral pipe, they can't logically continue to have common carrier status and will be responsible for any child pornography transmitted through their servers.

      ISPs are not common carriers until the Title II reclassification goes into effect (which the FCC is now trying to preempt). The laws preventing them from being liable have nothing to do with their becoming common carriers a few months from now.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  30. Re:Huh? That takes a special kind of stupid. by interkin3tic · · Score: 2

    No engineer in his/her right mind would ever even consider designing a self-driving car in such a way that it required instantaneous communication.

    Ah, but see, we're talking about what Comcast's engineers would do...

  31. Re:Fast Lanes For Self-Driving Cars, net neutralit by ma1wrbu5tr · · Score: 1

    The ultimate form of "vertical integration" but by force. Reminds me of Homer's "Compu-Global-Hyper-Mega-Net". Gates say to BUY HIM OUT BOYS and then says "You don't think I got this rich writing a bunch of checks" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H27rfr59RiE

    --
    Why can't we go back to using jumpers to configure slot adapter cards? Why? I say!
  32. Re:so when the brakes fail how long will I wait ho by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

    Of topic, but if you have to deal with comcast service, the chat is far better. If accents annoy you there's that, but also waiting in front of a computer is less annoying than waiting with a phone up to your ear. YMMV.

  33. Re:Huh? That takes a special kind of stupid. by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    so tunnels will be use less as well very rual areas (maybe the union trucks can get the union wire line techs to take out the towers in real ares so truckers don't get layed off)

  34. Re:well with comcast muilt-gig you can get your ow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    299$ special applies to the first three months of the three year contract. 399/month in the remainder of the contract. Comcast retains the right to dynamically alter the terms and pricing of existing contracts without notice. Firstborn organ donations are contingent on good health as determined by Comcast health inspection services; the company reserves the right to transfer donation requirements to later offspring and/or mandate their creation as needed.

  35. Re:so when the brakes fail how long will I wait ho by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    is it better or is it just some bot where you can have 1 person looking over 5 bot chats at the same time.

  36. Re:Huh? That takes a special kind of stupid. by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It is highly likely that you're wrong. And by highly likely, I mean absolutely certain. I can guarantee you with absolute certainty that no self-driving car system will ever be a centralized control system, because that would be fundamentally unsafe, for several reasons:

    • Many driving decisions are made by humans in on the order of tens of milliseconds. Even under the most ideal circumstances, cellular networking is almost never that fast. So even if cars were the only devices on the Internet, they would still be less safe than a human driver if the decisions were being made by a remote server on the other side of a cellular hop.
    • A centralized server is a single point of failure that could bring the traffic grid to its knees. If a single computer fails and the car decides to limp off to the side of the road, it's a minor nuisance for the other cars. If a million cars all fail and limp to the side of the road, the company goes out of business, because nobody is ever going to trust that company's self-driving cars again. That's what we call a company-limiting decision.
    • Any self-driving system that can only work when in a major metropolitan area would completely eliminate the biggest, most important use of self-driving tech, which is to eliminate the need for drivers on long-haul trucking routes.

    It is simply not realistic to believe that anyone would design a self-driving car system that is controlled from outside of the vehicle itself. That's why nobody is doing that. Nobody.

    Note that self-driving cars do periodically use the Internet for things like asking for road condition updates, both to avoid closed roads and to alert it ahead of time about lane closures that might require special attention. None of that functionality, however, is life-critical, and any self-driving car must be able to cope without that information (both because it might not be kept up-to-date by local authorities and because the network might not always work). And in any case, that data communication is not continuous. A single data burst every couple of hours would likely be perfectly fine, and when you're talking about something that infrequent, you have a lot of opportunities to retry before it becomes important. That makes autonomous vehicle communications quite possibly the single least important data flowing over the Internet, priority-wise.

    In other words, it's hard to imagine how you could possibly be more wrong.

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  37. Re:Huh? That takes a special kind of . by kiminator · · Score: 1

    I could imagine some situations where paid prioritization might be actively beneficial. Unfortunately, the possibilities for abuse are far too great to ignore.

    Any positive effects from paid prioritization would stem not from some nebulous increase in speed, but from reduced interruptions due to congestion. I could easily imagine traffic being bifurcated into two categories, where if a router reaches capacity it ensures that traffic in one category takes priority so that it can continue with minimal disruption. It's possible to implement this in such a way that existing traffic isn't slowed, but only by adding new capacity. This kind of thing might be nice if, say, every customer had a certain percentage of their traffic designated as "fast lane", and they could choose which traffic to allocate. Low-latency, low-bandwidth operations like interactive gaming could benefit greatly if the bifurcation of traffic actually improved worst-case latency.

    My worry is that what would happen if paid prioritization were to be allowed is that companies would feel free to use it as a means to force everybody onto the fast lane, and thus increase fees. Worse, it could dramatically worsen the Internet as small providers are priced out. I don't trust the current government to implement a rule that would prevent this outcome.

  38. Why does Comcast know about self driving cars? by Snotnose · · Score: 1

    They deliver Internet. Period. The fact that they know about self driving cars drives home the fact we need net neutrality.

  39. So comcast lets people on for free by jmccue · · Score: 1

    So COMCAST wants to do self-driving cars. Lets see, these cars will probably cost 100,000 USD each. So instead of building better infrastructure and invest the profits in the infrastructure, they want yet another freebie.

    Remind me, why is COMCAST regularly at the top of list of the most hated companies again ?

    1. Re:So comcast lets people on for free by dwillden · · Score: 1

      And their cars will refuse to enter any region covered by TW or COX. Nor will they provide transportation services to remote areas and any newly built areas will take at least five years to get Comcast Car Services enabled.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    2. Re:So comcast lets people on for free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "these cars will probably cost 100,000 USD each"

      No. They will cost just $50* a month for the first 12 months, to be raised to an unspecified ever-climbing rate after that.

      *Plus taxes and fees. Offer only available to new subscribers.

  40. Re:Fast Lanes For Self-Driving Cars, net neutralit by skids · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I thought that the idea of net neutrality...

    Lots of people have their own ideas about what constitutes net neutrality, and not many of them are the same. There are some absolutists on both sides, and from what I hear talking to people, the general public is too unaware about the uses of contentionless/prioritized networks, and the measures necessary to keep harmful traffic at bay on the network at large, to sympathize with the provisions necessary to get the most out the Internet. Doesn't help that the telco companies are such a bunch of odious nipple twisters.

    Personally I think we should ask math/game-theory/computational-simulation specialists to model what percent of the Internet needs to be "neutral" to preserve a beneficial market, and error on the more neutral side of that figure. And the model should include CDNs not just ISPs.

    You know, evidence based policy and such, rather than just a tug of war between corporate greed on one side and hate for local cable companies on the other.

  41. Re:Fast Lanes For Self-Driving Cars, net neutralit by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

    I'm confused; there isn't any reason why Comcast can't sell a particular service to automobile manufacturers, or self-driving car users, etc. Any ISP can provide a speciality service to anyone they want to provide it to, at least that is my understanding.

    Depends on if that specialty service cripples other things without you having to pay more for your other services. Should all that be legal?

    I thought that the idea of net neutrality and common carrier status is that if I (a consumer) purchase a general purpose Internet service, Comcast (the provider), doesn't interfere with the data that I want to transmit/receive over that service, regardless of where the data comes from; and doesn't start charging more just because the data is coming from source A rather than B.

    Yes but Comcast also selling a service has been known to interfere with traffic that competes with them.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  42. Not really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... makes Comcast's position pretty confusing.

    Not really: The real point of net neutrality is making infrastructure blind to the source. It's still possible to prioritize traffic that is a voice service or for first-responder vehicles. In that case, the question becomes, how does the infrastructure stop other sources stealing priority status? Price, would be one answer, making such theft, an act of fraud.

  43. Re:so when the brakes fail how long will I wait ho by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so when the brakes fail how long will I wait holding the line for jay (not his real name) to help me with an deep foreign accent?

    Here is a transcript of that support call.....

    [caller] Hello?

    [support] Thank you for calling Comcast Customer Support. How can I help you today?

    [caller] The brakes on my car have failed because the....[distortion and static on VoIP call]

    [Silent pause in call]

    [support] ALLAH BE PRAISED!

    [caller] What did you say? MY BRAKES HAVE FAILED! HELP ME!!

    [support] Yes I see that your brakes have failed. Is there a church or a synagogue nearby? If you crash your car into it you will some to a stop and...ALLAH BE PRAISED.

    [caller] What?

    [CRASHING SOUND]

  44. Re:Different classes of service are a different th by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Looks like someone on the internet is paying attention: I'm not needed here. Good work sir. I dream of a future where ISPs made as much sense as you do dlleigh.

  45. What overreach? by Picodon · · Score: 1

    The existing rule was notable in that 1) It was a gross overreach for the FCC, in that it was implemented under Title II classification 2) It actually does not completely or correctly implement net neutrality (in the way people expect when they use the term)

    How was it a “gross overreach” and a failure in regard to network neutrality?

    As far as I understand, the FCC was created (through the Communications Act of 1934) for the regulation of the commerce of communication services by wire and radio. Its goals are, in part, the establishment of “a rapid, efficient, nation-wide, and world-wide wire and radio communication service with adequate facilities at reasonable charges”, which is “available ... to all the people of the United States”.

    The act covers commercial (for hire) telecommunications networks regardless of medium (wire, radio), form (telegraph, telephone, broadcast radio and, later, television and Internet), content (text, voice, images, etc.), addressing mode (unicast, broadcast).

    Title II of the act defines rules applicable to common carriers (a carrier being defined as “any person engaged as common carrier for hire, in interstate or foreign communication by wire or radio...”). I don’t see how Internet data communications carriers (using wire or radio) could fail to be included in the definition.

    The reference to commerce, and those to qualitative aspects of the service, including fairness (available to all and affordable), make the FCC’s mandate rather clear (no need for the FTC here). This is reinforced by Title II’s prohibition of “unjust or unreasonable charges [and] practices” (“directly or indirectly, by any means or device”), as well as “unjust or unreasonable discrimination in charges [and] practices”, either by advantaging or disadvantaging a particular person, class of persons, or locality.

    I understand those articles as expressing the clear intent by Congress, from the very beginning, to ensure network neutrality, regardless of technology; and so I’d argue that the act does, in fact, a decent job covering the fundamentals in that regard.

    So, in your point of view, what is the nature of the overreach? And how does the act fail to adequately address network neutrality?

    1. Re:What overreach? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How was it a “gross overreach” and a failure in regard to network neutrality?

      Partisan doctrine, Okian Warrior has always been at war with EastAsia.

      So, in your point of view, what is the nature of the overreach? And how does the act fail to adequately address network neutrality?

      Any answer you get will be pure dogma, and subject entirely to revision simply to suit the mandate of the day. Okian Warrior doesn't have a point of view, just the party line.

      Most likely, you won't an answer though, Okian Warrior has been interjecting these diatribes against Net Neutrality for some months, but the responses have been quite inadequate.

  46. Re:so when the brakes fail how long will I wait ho by interkin3tic · · Score: 2

    Real person. I'm sure they are holding multiple chats at once based on the delays between responses, but it's still definitely better than being on the phone.

  47. So Much Framing Here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Definitions

    Fast Lane:
    1) The speed that you actually paid for.
    2) The speed which you are able to access Xfinity.
    3) Formerly known as the Regular Speed Lane

    Regular Speed Lane:
    1) The speed that they set to make Netflix useless, despite what you have paid.
    2) The speed that they set to make Netflix useless, despite what Netflix has paid to their ISP.
    3) Formerly known as the Slow Lane.

    Paid Prioritization:
    1) The money that they extort from Netflix for the privilege of typing in a few commands.
    2) The speed that they allow Netflix to run at in your home, considering the money that they have received from both parties.
    3) A term, thought of by ISP executives and marketing people, designed to deceive the unwitting public regarding net-neutrality.
    4) A term, artificially conflated with traffic-shaping or quality-of-service (QOS).

  48. When Internet decides how fast your car goes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Imagine that, a world where your car's Internet connection is what decides how safe the drive will be, how fast you will go, or whether you will even arrive at the right place, since Americans now drive by looking at an app rather than on the road. What a future.

  49. Comcast has no say in this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Comcast is a cable company. For their example of cars needing priority internet access, lets actually hear from the cellular providers their take. Comcast doesn't own cellular infrastructure. so unless all sell driving cars are going to have a coax umbilical cord dragged around with them, STFU

  50. Re:fringe roaming is an issue as well as 1GB can c by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hurray for EU-wide no roaming fees. Just need the rest of the world to join that pricing.

  51. ROFL by XSportSeeker · · Score: 1

    At this point it seems Comcast is coming up with the most bullshit drivel they can muster to see if people get confused by them and ultimately believe by default... I wonder what's next. Fast lanes are needed to solve climate change, create a cure for cancer, and avoid WW3?
    As if car automation would rely on Comcast service whatever form it comes, and as if Comcast could guarantee instantaneous data transmission for them.
    Pretty much the opposite is true. Comcast and the others that are part of the ISP oligopolies are the ones doing everything they can to stop initiatives like Google Fiber. If there's any hope for true instantaneous data transmission ever, it will come from technology that will ultimately break the current oligopolies, like indefinite expansion of Google Fi.
    These jokers keep throwing shit to see if it sticks at legislators and the public.

  52. QoS already exists, nice try Comcast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    QoS already exists, and has nothing to do with net neutrality. Net neutrality doesn't mean you can't offer different levels of QoS. It means a common carrier can't provide different levels of QoS on the basis of anything other than the level of QoS their customer purchased. Net neutrality means I buy a bitrate and *maybe* a data cap, and that's it. If Comcast does any other shaping or prioritization, it's no longer neutral. OK fine, Comcast, shape and prioritize all you want; but then you're not a common carrier. All the kiddie porn is yours.

  53. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  54. Fuck your assassination pods by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you want proof of globalist corruption, there it is. Comcast screws you left and right, but oh wow, they are going the distance for driverless cars! Gee whiz, never saw that coming!

    We do not want your automated CIA assassination pods and we will violently refuse them. We do not want our own possessions to turn us in whenever we violate the newest secret police state regulations and we will dispose of such possessions.

    Comcast = Fake Business

    We're sick and tired of publicly-traded corporations going on technological tangents that the customers do not want and will never want, like all this AI bullshit meant to create Minority Report. When is Trump going to destroy the "hidden planet" that turns every corporation into an anti-freedom cesspit? Don't go IPO because then you're just building weaponized businesses for the enemy. They can print infinite money to buy your wares out and then use them for evil.

  55. Re: Fast Lanes For Self-Driving Cars, net neutrali by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

    This is one of the most thoughtful comments on the matter that I've read on /. While I think the concept of net neutrality is important in a world where there is not nearly enough ISP competition to give consumers an upper hand, I also realize that there can be down sides to limiting how companies manage their information flow. I like your idea for considering both sides in policy making, but unfortunately we must polarize these topics to the point of inneffective or otherwise sub optimal solutions.

  56. Re: Fast Lanes For Self-Driving Cars, net neutrali by guruevi · · Score: 1

    The current net neutrality rules extend common carrier even to those that zero-rate (prefer) their own content. This was done early-Obama era so providers could provide their own music and video sites which didn't go against your data. Prior to that, cell phone and other ISPs were common carriers and zero rating would've lost them that status.

    The practice of simply ignoring your competitions bandwidth at the exchange (e.g. Letting your connection with Netflix and YouTube go to 100% and refusing to accept more traffic) has been commonplace all along even though receiving traffic at an exchange is practically free.

    The current FCC is trying to get rid of the prior regulation so carriers would be once again "common carriers" but it doesn't address the anticompetitive practice of refusing to expand your capacity in order to prioritize in-network traffic.

    Both Obama and Trump FCCs have allowed anticompetitive practices like Comcast, Time Warner and AT&T merging into a giant conglomerate tied together with their namesake media production companies by shell companies.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  57. And ther Faster Speed Equals by Neuronwelder · · Score: 1

    Bigger Crashes.. Make sure your manually driven car is equipped with blood spatter shields.

  58. Rent Seeking by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

    What exactly do you get without net neutrality except rent-seeking?

    --
    Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    1. Re:Rent Seeking by skids · · Score: 1

      It's hard to have that discussion unless you are willing to explain your own personal definition of "net neutrality"

    2. Re:Rent Seeking by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

      If you insist on muddying the waters, yes, conversation is difficult. The definition in common use however would be "don't prioritize traffic based on endpoint".

      --
      Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    3. Re:Rent Seeking by skids · · Score: 1

      Well, I wouldn't agree that there is a common definition.

      But since this is yours, that's good enough for argument's sake.

      Now, your question was "what exactly do you get without net neutrality except for rent seeking"

      Since I don't advocate abolishing all forms of "net neutrality" I don't have any reason to mount a devil's advocate defense of that posture... I was clear that some portion of the network bandwidth should be considered public space, though I would say some service-based prioritization is merited even there in cases where certain poorly designed software suites become a public menace.

      So Instead I will answer "what exactly do you get from prioritizing some traffic based on endpoint." The answer is that companies (and government entities) that wish to offer products that require reliable delivery of frames don't have to build out a prohibitively expensive and pretty much logistically impossible private network to offer these services to the market and/or public. Any sort of low latency real-time application falls into this category.

      So, to stay close to the topic, let's say self-driving cars almost get there... they are to the point where they can do most things, but occasionally still require driver intervention... so you really cannot offer driverless taxi/shuttle services due to those corner cases. Now let's say a company comes up with a mechanical turk solution to this, where the cars can anticipate situations where they will need help, schedule a 3-minute VR session with a remote human driver to get them over the hump, then free the human driver up to go service other cars.

      Notwithstanding the fact that driving through Place de l'Etoile 75 times in a day in rapid succession would probably drive teleworkers more batshit than telemarketing currently does, we cannot and will not have a vibrant market in telecommunications services to make this sort of thing a reality unless these services can reliably deliver a VR session between the car and the teleworker's home office regardless of whether their teenager is download the latest patch to gears of war at that time, whether everyone in the world is slashdotting some recently deceased movie star's iMDB page, or whether some botnet operator decided they had had it up to here with Sony yet again.

      And, a second reason why "rent seeking" is not the only option is that network infrastructure has significantly more degrees of freedom than real estate, so the government has more options to put demands on companies to expand services in contested markets without asking them to do the impossible. Such legislation would not fall under the banner of "net neutrality" at all but rather monopoly/cabal prohibitions.

    4. Re:Rent Seeking by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

      Feel free to discriminate between protocols or even to some degree applications. You should not be allowed to prioritize (e.g.) HTTP traffic based on whether the client is requesting netflix.com or comcast.net. Apparently you are unclear on what is being discussed on many levels.

      --
      Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
  59. Re:Huh? That takes a special kind of stupid. by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

    The whole concept is ridiculous anyway. You don't need to-the-microsecond updates about traffic 30 miles away; to-the-minute is fine, and we can do way better than that.

    Real-time situational awareness from anything other than your own sensors should come from a mesh network with nearby cars.

  60. German manufacturers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    German car manufacturers already have a problem when their sensor input is projected to be well above 10Mbit/s per car, and they need to stream these realtime to their datacenters. Their main expense seems to be that of mobile operators, whose infrastructure they need to use. So they are considering either buying them out or making a parallel cell-tower network for cars only. Now Comcast probably has a similar idea to rent their network out to car manufacturers for steady stream of money instead of being left out.

  61. Re: Fast Lanes For Self-Driving Cars, net neutrali by dgatwood · · Score: 1

    Actually, it was Obama's FCC that reclassified them as common carriers (Title II) about two years ago. The current FCC commissioners want to roll that back, thus removing the anti-throttling regulations that could otherwise be used to force carriers to actually provide enough bandwidth for their competitors to compete.

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  62. Foot in the door by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Professional liars (lawyers) love the old "foot in the door" trick. Starts with an innocent sounding priority for self-driving cars, next comcast video streaming service in cars, then comcast video streaming anywhere! It all starts with a foot in the door...

  63. Re:Huh? That takes a special kind of . by dgatwood · · Score: 1

    You're certainly right about it being useful to prioritize traffic based on whether increased latency will affect usability. The part that is inherently anticompetitive is where you insert the word "paid" in there and prioritize one content provider's traffic over another instead of prioritizing one type of traffic over another.

    I have yet to see anything even approaching a legitimate argument in favor of paid prioritization.

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  64. Nope.. by SuperDre · · Score: 1

    Self driving cars should not in anyway need to rely on internet or outside communication (other than updating mapinfo once in a while). If the car can't drive on it's own without even having to rely in the slightest on internet, that car does not belong on the road.

  65. How is that different from QOS? by Holi · · Score: 1

    QOS is allowed under net neutrality regs so, WTF Comcast.

    --
    Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
  66. "Comcast says..." by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    Nope, already lost interest.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.