Elon Musk Says He Has a Green Light To Build a NY-Philly-Baltimore-DC Hyperloop (theverge.com)

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Elon Musk Says He Has a Green Light To Build a NY-Philly-Baltimore-DC Hyperloop (theverge.com)

Posted by msmash on Thursday July 20, 2017 @06:50AM from the Going-forward dept.

An anonymous reader shares a report:Elon Musk just tweeted that his Boring Company tunnel project has just received "verbal [government] approval" to build a hyperloop connecting New York City, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Washington, DC. While we work to verify his claim, Musk is continuing to tweet more details about the project. The hyperloop, an ultrafast method of travel first developed by Musk in 2013, would only take 29 minutes to travel between New York City and DC, he claims. And it would feature "up to a dozen or more" access points via elevator in each city. Update: Eric Phillips, press secretary for the New York City mayor, tweeted, "This is news to City Hall," adding "The entirety of what we know about this proposal is what's in Mr. Musk's tweet. That is not how we evaluate projects of any scale."

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Never going to happen by danbert8 · 2017-07-20 04:43 · Score: 5, Insightful

I doubt anyone in the government verbally approved a project that is likely in the hundred of billions...

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1. Re: Never going to happen by xxxJonBoyxxx · 2017-07-20 04:46 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  ^^ This.
  
  Show me a continuous, buildable line between those three cities and I'll show you more governing bodies (not to mention NIMBY NGOs and regulators) than you had kids your high school class.
2. Re:Never going to happen by squiggleslash · 2017-07-20 04:52 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Hundreds of billions? You're forgetting that Musk has found ways to reduce the cost of tunneling from $1B/mile to 25c (and 10c at weekends.) His Hyperloop technology is revolutionary and won't be a barf ride, cramped, and ear splittingly loud so stop saying that - they've proven it works in NV or New Mexico by building a small test track where they totally proved that you can put things in pipes and make them move, which is the same thing yes it is.
  This is an amazing technology, one of the variants Musk has been proposing is going to totally end the problems associated with roads and congestion by moving your car right to the centers of major metropolises like Chicago and New York City, which are both famous for having ample space to drive around and park.
  Truly a visionary, and he's not just trying to cripple real public transportation projects politically by proposing "cheap", "private" alternatives in order to prop up his car company, so stop saying that.
  
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3. Re:Never going to happen by taiwanjohn · 2017-07-20 04:54 · Score: 2
  
  Then again, if it was a private tweet from Trump... that would count as White House policy. As for the cost, you might well be off by a couple orders of magnitude. IIRC, Elon's original hyperloop white paper estimated the cost of the SF-to-LA 'loop at around six or eight billion. Add in your fudge factors for Elon's notorious optimism and turning it into a 'gubmint' project... and I still think you'd be in the tens of billions, rather than hundreds. FWIW...
  
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4. Re:Never going to happen by nine-times · 2017-07-20 05:00 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  I don't particularly doubt that *someone* in the government would give verbal approval. I doubt that there's someone in the government who has the authority and influence to give verbal approval and have it mean anything.
5. Re:Never going to happen by OzPeter · 2017-07-20 05:17 · Score: 2
  
  Truly a visionary, and he's not just trying to cripple real public transportation projects politically by proposing "cheap", "private" alternatives in order to prop up his car company, so stop saying that.
  And nobody is going to believe this one amazing trick that Musk will use on the project!
  
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6. Re: Never going to happen by guruevi · 2017-07-20 05:18 · Score: 2
  
  There's a difference between making something happen and feasibility. Only fools throw money at ideas purely because you want it to happen.
  SpaceX was going to Mars on a budget that wouldn't even cover a round trip to the moon... seems like the brass at NASA finally asked some engineers and scrapped that faster than a burnt potato. At least Musk got his money out of that deal but yeah, he's trying...
  
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7. Re: Never going to happen by Albanach · 2017-07-20 05:19 · Score: 2
  
  I didn't see any suggestion from Musk that this would be publicly financed. Given the massive number of jobs that such a project would create, I'd doubt government would stand in the way on principal alone. That doesn't mean there won't be more government interest in the route or the regulation of the service if/when it was ever to come into existence.
8. Re: Never going to happen by snarfies · 2017-07-20 05:34 · Score: 2
  
  We can even get rail lines from Philadelphia to our largest and busiest suburbs (King of Prussia and West Chester). In both cases, the lines are endless blocked because they don't want "those" people having access to their towns.
9. Re:Never going to happen by Immerman · 2017-07-20 05:42 · Score: 2
  
  What land? Did you miss the part about it being The Boring Company getting approval? One of the many benefits of going underground is that you can potentially ignore surface property rights altogether - the law is extremely poorly defined when it comes to just how far down you own, far less so than even how much airspace above your land you have a right to. There have been a handful of cases in US law of successful lawsuits against people *mining* under your land, assuming you own the mineral rights as well, but that's about it. Dig the tunnels a few thousand feet underground, so that there's effectively zero surface disturbance, and there'd likely be very few people willing to take the case court on the off chance that they might win. Of course by the same token if someone decided to dig a borehole on their property and punctured your tunnel you probably wouldn't have any grounds for legal complaint either.
  Alternately, if you're feeling particularly cautious and well-funded, in most places you could probably purchase or lease underground right-of-ways for practically nothing, even relatively near the surface.
  
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10. Re:Never going to happen by mspohr · 2017-07-20 05:52 · Score: 2
  
  Apparently it was Jared Kushner who "approved" the project.
  This is the way our totalitarian capitalist government works. Just get the OK from the mafia boss representative of "the family" and you're good to go.
  
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11. Re:Never going to happen by squiggleslash · 2017-07-20 06:34 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  He's trying to fuck up public transportation by proposing "cheap" alternatives that, even if they work, will not be as cheap as he claims, and will on most metrics be horrible.
  Maybe he believes in it, I don't know: I do know the CAHSR-killing original Hyperloop proposal was so bad it was impossible to assume it had been written in good faith. Just the fact this "replacement" only served two of the four cities CAHSR is aimed at, wasn't designed to cope with anything like as many passengers, and had end-points 50-100 miles away from the cities they served, was enough to draw that conclusion. That was before getting civil engineers in to dispute the costs.
  So no, I don't give someone credit for merely "trying to do something". They have to be trying to do something worthwhile, not negative for me to support them.
  
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12. Re: Never going to happen by rogoshen1 · 2017-07-20 07:09 · Score: 2
  
  they'll kill it by every single governing body between and including those cities wanting their hands in the cookie jar.
13. Re: Never going to happen by cayenne8 · 2017-07-20 07:23 · Score: 2
  
  That suggests it might be underground out of everyones sight, and out of their minds.
  
  Hmm...sounds like modern day Sub-Rosa Subway
  .....by Alfred Beach
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14. Re:Never going to happen by elrous0 · 2017-07-20 07:46 · Score: 2
  
  Hey, if Musk could figure out how to get a rocket to Mars by 2020, he can do anything!
  
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15. Re: Never going to happen by doctorvo · 2017-07-20 08:05 · Score: 2
  
  Wake up, man, California High Speed Rail is dead. California is nearly bankrupt, the federal government is not going to pay for it, and as a business it makes no sense.
16. Re: Never going to happen by eliphalet · 2017-07-20 08:41 · Score: 2
  
  Someone once said that a verbal contract is not worth the paper it's printed on.
17. Re: Never going to happen by Gavagai80 · 2017-07-20 12:55 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  California hasn't had a budget deficit for 5 years, has paid off most debt, has in fact been setting aside money in reserve (despite having our tax dollars siphoned off to the southeast by the feds), and will build HSR. Unfortunately, since nobody's going to ride it when it opens in the 2040s and it will have huge ongoing maintenance costs.
  
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Re:Raises Many Questions by MightyYar · 2017-07-20 04:53 · Score: 3, Funny

Fortunately, there is almost nothing underground in NYC.

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Really? by Daetrin · 2017-07-20 04:58 · Score: 4, Informative

"The hyperloop, an ultrafast method of travel first developed by Musk in 2013"

By "first developed" you presumably mean "applied some minor tweaks and a 'cool' name to a basic concept that's been around for over two centuries"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Certainly Musk might end up being the first person to get a practical vacuum tube transportation network working, but crediting him with developing the idea himself seems a bit much.

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1. Re:Really? by BasilBrush · 2017-07-20 05:42 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Innovation is very little about having completely new ideas. It's about execution. Many people might have fantasised about vacuum tube transport, but Musk is the one to actually get people started on doing it for real. That's the real achievement.
  Completely new ideas are very, very rare.
This sounds like nothing by Headw1nd · 2017-07-20 05:00 · Score: 2, Interesting

So I have some friends who are of the belief that Musk is just a consummate shyster, and I have disagreed, pointing to promising results with SpaceX and favorable sales from Tesla. This kind of talk makes me believe that there might be something to their concerns. I assume "verbal approval" from the gov't means that he asked someone (who knows who) if in theory he could do this and they said "sure", which counts for all of nothing. What this doesn't sound like is the well-established plan of an enterprise that is going to go forward.
1. Re: This sounds like nothing by BasilBrush · 2017-07-20 06:02 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  "Tesla was a good idea because the market wanted it and Musk capitalized on it."
  Absolutely not true. Musk essentially created the successful EV market. Previously electric vehicles were thought of as slow and heavy and ugly. OK for commercial vehicles and for cars for rich environmentalists. And that's it. Very small niches.
  Musk created the perception with the Roadster and then the Model S, that electric cars could be very fast and luxurious. It's almost totally down to him showing the way that nearly every other manufacturer has now gone all out to produce electric cars.
  You may not remember now, but the idea of packing a sports car with lithium-ion laptop batteries was novel when the Tesla Roadster was launched.
2. Re: This sounds like nothing by phantomfive · 2017-07-20 08:45 · Score: 2
  
  The market was there. Plenty of people wanted an electric car. Musk was just the first to deliver a product that was acceptable to the market (although arguably Prius went half way there).
  
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3. Re:This sounds like nothing by Dread_ed · 2017-07-20 13:00 · Score: 2
  
  Easy explanation. This is market testing. Chuck the idea out to the public, watch what is said, use the results to sharpen the point of your thrust, which comes later.
  A big headline creates waves. Study the waves and you see the obstacles and advocates to actual implementation of the idea well before it is "make or break" time.
  Operating in a vacuum is good for the line itself, not for developing the line.
  
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The one profitable Amtrak route by edtice1559 · 2017-07-20 05:04 · Score: 3, Interesting

This seems to be the one route in the US where a train service can make money so it's no surprise that he *wants* to build this route. If he could bore under existing railway rights of way, it should be a relatively simple project from an administrative standpoint (no worrying about easements et cetera). The tracks would then carry only freight and the number of tracks would be reduced in favor of green space and walking trails. Amtrak would go bankrupt and there would never be a public train service in this country again. I'll let others opine whether this is good or bad but certainly would be the outcome.
1. Re:The one profitable Amtrak route by bobbied · 2017-07-20 05:27 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Problem is that at the speeds the Hyper loop is supposed to go, the existing right of way with all the twists and turns is has won't work very well. Musk needs as straight of a shot as he can manage to make the high speeds comfortable for the passengers. As it stands now, it would be one heck of a roller coaster ride to do that trip in 29 min using the existing right of way.
  
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2. Re:The one profitable Amtrak route by Topwiz · 2017-07-20 05:58 · Score: 2
  
  The existing Acela train doesn't go very fast in some areas because of sharp turns and areas where the tracks are too close to each other.
3. Re:The one profitable Amtrak route by edtice1559 · 2017-07-20 08:34 · Score: 2
  
  I guess it depends on your definition of "alongside." Here's an example of the Conotton Creek Trail. https://www.google.com/maps/pl... The Northeast corridor is part of that subsidy. Take it away and we'll have to either let Amtrak stop operating or make up the lost profits in additional subsidies.
Like, a president. Or someone who makes a diff. by Anonymous Coward · 2017-07-20 05:13 · Score: 5, Funny

But no president of the US of A will never say something like that.
A president has a value for his word. Because he is trustworthy, reliable, and does consider the implications of each word coming out of his mouth.
Many miles of solid rock. by swell · 2017-07-20 05:40 · Score: 3, Insightful

New York City is built upon the North Atlantic Plate, a mass of solid rock extending from Canada and whose nearest boundary is in the mid Atlantic. The skyscrapers of the city have their foundations on that rock. It is difficult to imagine how the Boring machine would penetrate that mass. Certainly not at the affordable cost that has been mentioned here.
While there have been smallish earthquakes in the area, a tunnel through solid rock should be relatively immune to such disturbances. Tunneling through California might be more of a risky venture.

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1. Re:Many miles of solid rock. by Whorhay · 2017-07-20 06:48 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  The solid rock substrate is unlikely to be a cause for concern. There have already been numerous tunnels dug all over the world using similar technology, as well as techniques far more ancient, through solid rock. I expect the economy gains will mostly come from the fact that the proposed hyper loop tunnels are very small compared to other bored tunnels. Consequently less rock has to be removed, and less materials used to line and seal the tunnel.
Re:Access points by BasilBrush · 2017-07-20 05:45 · Score: 2

Branch off the main line for the elevators. Like a pitstop. Then all you have to do is make sure there are no collisions coming out of the pitstop back onto the mainline. And that's technically trivial.
Re:Raises Many Questions by Immerman · 2017-07-20 05:46 · Score: 2

Not if you dig deep enough. I mean yeah, a 5-minute ride in an express elevator at each end does increase the total travel time considerably, but it's still a lot faster than driving.

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Re:Access points by Immerman · 2017-07-20 05:57 · Score: 2

I would assume the elevator doesn't actually intersect the main tunnel, but rather an underground station/siding where loaded cars would then wait for an opening large enough for them to merge into the through traffic.

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Comment from Article Said it Best by Koreantoast · 2017-07-20 05:59 · Score: 2

This quote from the article said it best:

Approval needed from: Federal DOT; 6 states; 17 counties; numerous cities; hundreds of elected officials. Definitely happening rapidly. @yfreemark
Re:Inaccurate summary is inaccurate by sexconker · 2017-07-20 06:23 · Score: 4, Funny

The fastest and most efficient mode of transportation is falling.
Re:Raises Many Questions by MightyYar · 2017-07-20 06:36 · Score: 2

Yeaaaahh, that's true. But it's _really_ deep. The water tunnels are 600 ft down, and there are subway stations as far down as 180ft (with very trouble-prone elevators).

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Re:NE US by enjar · 2017-07-20 06:51 · Score: 4, Funny

There are flying machines that can whisk you between coasts in about six hours. I know it sounds like science fiction, but it's true. It's even safer than driving! Even better, there are also options for stopping in cities BETWEEN the coasts! There are even well-developed electronic systems for procuring travel tickets at times convenient to you!
DC to NY needs more approvals than going to Mars by jfdavis668 · 2017-07-20 07:06 · Score: 5, Insightful

It is easier to get approval to send men to Mars than it does to build a tunnel from DC to NY.
Re:DC to NY needs more approvals than going to Mar by kenh · 2017-07-20 07:37 · Score: 2

It is easier to get approval to send men to Mars than it does to build a tunnel from DC to NY.
Space travel doesn't cross state lines.

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Ken
Jobs-ian genius by J.+T.+MacLeod · 2017-07-20 07:46 · Score: 4, Interesting

Of course Elon Musk didn't get verbal approval for the entire track. Perhaps he had the merest hint of a suggestion from someone (DOT? Two people on city councils at either end?).
Getting actual approval from all the different cities, states, counties, and regulatory bodies involved will be an enormous undertaking. The fastest way to get this sort of discussion happening at all of these levels is probably to... force people involved to deny it.
A single tweet and suddenly you have multiple nationwide news articles and, most critically, everyone responsible for approval at every level talking about it. They're talking about it to nail down who said, but they're talking about it. As are all their constituents and peers.
The largest hurdle when dealing with so many people in authority is simply tendency toward inaction. With a tweet, he has solved that. Forcing people to say "he won't be approved without following the process" removes the option of sitting on it silently whether out of apathy or to gain leverage.
Re:Raises Many Questions by MightyYar · 2017-07-20 14:26 · Score: 2

I'm trying to stay concise, but I'll spell it out for you.
NYC has a TON of underground infrastructure that goes down as deep as 600-800 ft (depending on where you are and how you measure). For a train traveling 700MPH, you are going to need to pick a depth and more or less stick to it over a distance as small as Manhattan (maybe 3 miles wide at most?). The higher you go, the more trouble you will have finding a clear straight run. You can't get too close to the infrastructure above, or the rock will not support the weight and you'll have to make expensive reinforcements. For instance, when putting the LIRR (Long Island Railroad) connection in at Grand Central ("East Side Access" if you want to Google it), they opted to dig 140 feet down so that they would not have to reinforce the foundations of the station above. The F train is about 100 feet down so it can pass under the other subways. I can tell you from experience that the escalator ride is no fun down to the F train, and I would avoid it if I could. Sometimes the escalator would be out of service and you got to use them as stairs. Fun. There is an infamous subway entrance at Washington Heights 180ft deep that is accessible only by elevator (well, also stairs). The elevators are troublesome and one of them has - I shit you not - a human operator who just sits there and presses the automatic buttons. The other (identical) elevators are fully automatic, they just still hire this one guy. Sorry, tangent.
Finally, there is the water infrastructure. It is the deepest as far as I know, down something like 600ft. Maybe there is some way to "thread the needle" and get the hyperloop tunnel between the water infrastructure and the subway infrastructure. That'd be great, but it's still really far down. If he can dig all the way from Washington to NYC it will seem like a relatively minor thing, but lets not pretend it's trivial. It took them 4 decades to dig the water tunnel.

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