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World's First Floating Wind Farm Emerges Off Coast of Scotland (bbc.co.uk)

AmiMoJo writes: The world's first full-scale floating wind farm has started to take shape off the north-east coast of Scotland. The revolutionary technology will allow wind power to be harvested in waters too deep for the current conventional bottom-standing turbines. The manufacturer hopes to cash in on a boom in the technology, especially in Japan and the west coast of the U.S., where waters are deep. The tower, including the blades, stretches to 175m and weighs 11,500 tons. The price of energy from bottom-standing offshore wind farms has plummeted 32% since 2012, and is now four years ahead of the government's expected target. Another big price drop is expected, taking offshore wind to a much lower price than new nuclear power.

41 of 252 comments (clear)

  1. Emerges by turkeydance · · Score: 3, Funny

    then sinks

    1. Re:Emerges by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 4, Interesting

      then sinks

      Well, we'll see how it works, right? We absolutely need these sorts of large-scale tests to definitively prove or disprove the viability of alternative energy projects such as these. Although some people still try, it's hard to argue with raw data gathered over five or ten years. Based on a relatively short history, we'll be able to see how much economic sense it makes to move ahead with larger projects. Note that you do have to account for economy of scale and a maturation of technology, of course.

      I was initially somewhat doubtful about the economic viability of some of these projects. I'd like nothing more than to be proven absolutely wrong on this.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    2. Re:Emerges by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Informative

      Build it like an oil drilling platform.

      They are. This wind farm is being built by Statoil, the Norwegian state oil company. Their expertise in building floating oil platforms, and their existing construction infrastructure, made them the obvious choice. The platforms are being built in a Norwegian fiord and then towed across the North Sea to Scotland.

  2. EVIL by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Funny

    Godless heathens, everyone knows Jesus only wants coal fired power plants.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    1. Re:EVIL by harlequinn · · Score: 2

      Nice stereotyping there mate.

  3. Strange bedfellows by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Some environmentalists will oppose this because of presumed bird mortality, and many slash dotters who are definitely not environmentalists will oppose this because it is an energy source they hate.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    1. Re:Strange bedfellows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      many slash dotters who are definitely not environmentalists will oppose this because it is an energy source they hate.

      You make it sound as though that hate is irrational. It's because we are tech geeks and coal energy makes microprocessors run much more smoothly. I know, I've burnt out three MBs since they started introducing that harsh wind-generated electricity into our grid.

    2. Re:Strange bedfellows by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Some environmentalists will oppose this because of presumed bird mortality,

      Not if they're rational.

      and many slash dotters who are definitely not environmentalists will oppose this because it is an energy source they hate.

      Hating an energy source isn't rational.

      Reality Check. Environmentalist & non-environmentalist don't hate wind turbines in significant numbers.The anti-turbine mob are all nimbys worried about spoiling their views, and old-energy shills and their useful idiots.

      --
      There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
    3. Re:Strange bedfellows by arth1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I oppose them because plans for and the cost of decommissioning them is not part of the budget planning.

      Also, there are environmental concerns not well researched and understood yet, like underseas power cables and their impact on oceanic marine life with electrical sensory organs. Sharks have displayed problems from low voltage underseas cables, even when quite thickly insulated. It may well be ok, but I still want a bit more research before jumping on something because ooh windcraft!

    4. Re:Strange bedfellows by blindseer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I oppose wind power because it's often not all that "green".

      http://www.carlineconomics.com...

      Building those windmill towers takes a lot of steel and concrete that could be put to better energy use, like nuclear power. I don't know how off shore wind power plays into this environmental disaster that on shore wind, but it can't be all that great if it costs twice as much to build out than onshore wind.

      As far as "green" energy goes wind isn't nearly as bad as solar. I believe that wind could actually be profitable without government subsidy. Onshore wind produces energy that is about the same as natural gas or hydro, which is a fraction of the cost of solar energy. The carbon footprint of wind is on par with hydro, nuclear, which is a fraction of the carbon footprint of solar.

      The problem with wind is the mess it can leave behind. Wind is not regulated like coal or nuclear. If you shut down a coal plant it must be cleared to a "brownfield" standard, meaning nothing left but bare dirt. Nuclear has to be torn down to "greenfield" standard, meaning what's left must be a grassland or forest. Wind is allowed to be abandoned, with rusted towers left in place. Sometimes they are required to tear down to a "grey-field" standard, where the towers and above ground structures must be removed but the buried concrete anchors can remain.

      For a grey field to become useful again the concrete must be found useful as structural elements for industrial use, or removed with lots of diesel powered machinery. Only after it is removed can the ground be used for agriculture or wildlife. I assume if left to rot the concrete would slowly weather into rubble, but that would take centuries.

      If the goal is cheap energy then wind can play along with coal, natural gas, and nuclear. When it comes to being "green" it seems only nuclear and wind apply. Solar isn't all it's cracked up to be, with the toxic materials involved and difficulty in recycling. Hydro might work but I wonder about such things as the Rio Grande not reaching the Gulf any more. Geothermal seems cheap and carbon free but it only works in places like Iceland and Hawaii.

      The energy future looks like nuclear for base load, wind power when and where it is cheap, hydro for storage and load following where it is available. When we run out og hydro then we'll have to go to natural gas for peak load matching, at least in the near term. Synthetic fuels derived from excess nuclear capacity at low demand times can be tanked to burn later in converted natural gas turbines. Batteries might play a role if the price is right, which is unlikely. We'll probably have air cooled brayton cycle nuclear before the batteries get too far. Air cooled nuclear with turbines can load follow just as well as any natural gas turbine, since they work on the same physics.

      If we get air cooled nuclear power then I have my doubts that even wind can compete on being as cheap or "green". Hydro will be around for a long time yet if only because we invested so much into it that it would be a shame not to let it run until it is no longer profitable. If wind survives this then it will be pumping water for hydro, or desalination, or to bring fresh water across long distance. Not for electricity.

      I'm sorry for rambling on for a bit, but my medicine started to kick in as I typed. I think I'mn done heire for know. goooddnight.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    5. Re:Strange bedfellows by Teun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wind is allowed to be abandoned, with rusted towers left in place. Sometimes they are required to tear down to a "grey-field" standard, where the towers and above ground structures must be removed but the buried concrete anchors can remain.

      You must live in a weird and unusually slack judiciary.

      In other words, this part of your worries/opposition to wind power has nothing to do with a shortcoming in the industry but everything with a shortcoming in your legal system.
      Additionally, land must be extremely cheap when the owners just let it lay fallow.

      Where I live the ~25 y/o turbines, in the day the largest on shore wind farm in Europe, were removed after new rows of nearly 200 meter giants were put alongside them.
      http://www.windparknoordoostpo...

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    6. Re:Strange bedfellows by Teun · · Score: 4, Informative

      I oppose them because plans for and the cost of decommissioning them is not part of the budget planning.

      Get your legal system fixed!

      Also, there are environmental concerns not well researched and understood yet, like underseas power cables and their impact on oceanic marine life with electrical sensory organs. Sharks have displayed problems from low voltage underseas cables, even when quite thickly insulated. It may well be ok, but I still want a bit more research before jumping on something because ooh windcraft!

      Underwater power cables exists for many years, probably for over a century, and the technology plus environmental impact is well understood.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    7. Re:Strange bedfellows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      I oppose it because all of the things we're putting into the ocean is causing water levels to rise. At 11,500 tons, what poor island is going to be flooded due to our greed? Don't believe me? Just look at the historical data. The more tonnage we put into the oceans the more floods occur. Remember when Noah built his massive boat, a boat big enough to fit a pair of every living create on it as well as food and supplies? He flooded the whole world with his floating zoo obsession. Lets not repeat the same mistake with massive floating fans designed to cool the coasts. Aren't beaches windy enough?

    8. Re: Strange bedfellows by Barsteward · · Score: 5, Informative

      you'd be lucky if you could find a spot in the North Sea that isn't windy

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    9. Re:Strange bedfellows by Barsteward · · Score: 3, Informative

      "If we get air cooled nuclear power then I have my doubts that even wind can compete on being as cheap or "green"." - no-one who promotes nuclear seems to include the extortionate build/decommission costs or subsidies given to nuclear industry. http://www.ucsusa.org/nuclear-...

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    10. Re:Strange bedfellows by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We have power cables on the sea floor since decades.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    11. Re:Strange bedfellows by Pax681 · · Score: 3, Funny

      You make it sound as though that hate is irrational. It's because we are tech geeks and coal energy makes microprocessors run much more smoothly. I know, I've burnt out three MBs since they started introducing that harsh wind-generated electricity into our grid.

      tech geek?.. hand you card in NOW.. anyone with a clue would use something that can be as cheap as one of these puppies... Monster HTS200 HT Power Centre... surged and spike protection for mains.. just what would have kept you safe

    12. Re:Strange bedfellows by DarthVain · · Score: 2

      While I agree about the decommissioning issue being something that should be resolved for all of these sorts of energy projects, I'd say the undersea cables are very likely of low risk. Much (and I don't really know, but I'm guessing +95%) of the cable is going to be at depths that there is little life, never mind "sharks". Only the short pass of the line that extends from the shore before the shelf is going to have any such impact, if there even is any.

      Governments seem to be excited to jump into corporate bedfellows for all sorts of green energy projects these days, however in the longer term (i.e. beyond the 20 year energy contract they sign or whatever), how are these sites going to be dealt with when no longer profitable. Corporations have a tendency to legally insulate themselves using subsidiaries, which when the time comes "go bankrupt" absolving them of any responsibilities. At which point the government will need to come in and take care of the issue, at the tax payers expense. Basically rehab funds need to be put aside during the actual operation of the site, and released back to the company to do the work. It should not be managed by the company, as there is little to stop them from either not meeting the obligations, dipping into it, or otherwise abusing it so that at the end of the day it is no longer sufficient for the cleanup. However even then it would take either government or an independent organization to administer which also costs money, to which the industry should also be on the hook for.

      I'm guessing a lot of that gets overlooked under the auspices of "green" energy and jobs, etc...

    13. Re:Strange bedfellows by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The anti-turbine mob are all nimbys worried about spoiling their views

      What's so bad about not wanting your views spoiled?

      Nothing at all. It doesn't mean your want will trump everyone's need however. If you really need pristine natural views that look like they have not been touched by humans, you need to go to places that are pretty close to pristine, with very few humans.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    14. Re:Strange bedfellows by blindseer · · Score: 2

      You've never advocated for anything "green" in your life so what should it matter?

      Because I want cheap and reliable energy. Solar cannot do that, it is neither cheap nor reliable. Wind is not reliable but cheap enough that if combined with traditional energy it can mean reducing costs without reducing reliability.

      I'll play the "let's be green" game so long as it is done logically. I have no problem with being green, so long as it does not mean energy prices go up and availability goes down. So, for the moment, let's be green.

      At the top of the green energy list is nuclear, wind, and hydro. All of them also fairly inexpensive compared to coal and natural gas. Nuclear is reliable, as is hydro, and if we don't go nuts on windmills where it overwhelms the ability of nuclear and hydro to keep things stable then wind is reliable too.

      Solar power, in its varying forms, is expensive, has a larger carbon footprint than wind, hydro, and nuclear, and is dependent on favorable weather, so not reliable. Can we add batteries or other storage to make it reliable? Sure, that adds to the cost and carbon footprint, which is already not that great. Can we find sources of raw materials that use less carbon? Sure, but then those same materials can be used to reduce the carbon footprint of wind, hydro, and nuclear.

      Can we have cheap carbon free energy without nuclear, using only wind and hydro? Only if you are lucky enough to live in a place with plenty of wind and water. At a certain point supply cannot meet demand and you'll have to use more expensive means to harness the wind and water, or turn to more carbon emitting energy like solar, geothermal, or natural gas.

      Bio-fuel is just a bad idea, it's expensive, competes with food, and has a carbon footprint on par with natural gas. Just use the sun to grow food and lumber instead.

      I like nuclear power because it provides plentiful cheap and reliable energy. Anyone that is honest about reducing carbon output should advocate for nuclear power too. If they want "green" but don't want "nukular" then they are mentally impaired, ignorant, or possibly both.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    15. Re:Strange bedfellows by blindseer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I've looked over their website and it's just full of lies and scaremongering.

      One lie is that U-233 is weapons grade material. First, the U-233 that comes from a thorium reactor is so tainted with other uranium isotopes that it cannot be handled safely without very expensive processing. Second, a U-233 weapon is theoretical, no one has yet built one successfully. Sure, there were devices that contained U-233 that went *BOOM* but they were considered duds. Anyone that has the technology to turn U-233 into weapons grade material won't need the reactor, they can use common dirt and process that to get U-235 instead.

      Also, what are we supposed to so with all the weapons we have now? Break them apart and pretend this valuable plutonium doesn't exist? That plutonium can be turned into energy in a nuclear reactor. If this organization wants to be rid of nuclear weapons then they should be advocating for nuclear energy. The only way to destroy nuclear weapons material is in a nuclear reactor. You can try to contaminate it with other materials, bury it in a deep enough hole, but it will still be there for someone to dig back up and turn into weapons again.

      Getting back to the cost of nuclear energy I keep hearing on how nuclear energy is so expensive. That's because it is a self fulfilling prophesy. The people that license nuclear energy don't want it to be successful so they make it expensive. These projects are always over budget because the powers that be just cannot leave them alone and let them finish. Because if they did actually let them finish then the lie of expensive nuclear energy would be exposed as the lie it is.

      Nuclear energy can be safe, reliable, plentiful, and cheap. We know this because we've been getting safe, reliable, plentiful, and cheap energy from nuclear power for decades. Chernobyl was 30 years ago and none of the reactors like it exist anymore. Same for Three Mile Island which was 40 years ago. Fukushima was an accident at an aging nuclear power plant and no new ones would be built like it either. If people fear nuclear power accidents then we need new nuclear to replace the old nuclear or energy is going to get expensive, unreliable, harder to find, and not nearly as safe.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    16. Re: Strange bedfellows by dunkelfalke · · Score: 2

      Is it my accent?

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
  4. Huuuuuuge tracts of sea by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Funny

    The next one will catch fire, fall over and sink.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  5. Re:Won't somebody think of the birds? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2, Informative

    Note that there's no mentioned of a time frame. I mean, "thousands" of birds a day? We should move them. "thousands" of birds a year? I'm a bit less concerned. "thousands" of birds a decade?

    It is pretty much Bullshit. Birds manage to avoid all manner of moving things.

    It is also amusing to see my coal burning energy friends and their deep and abiding concern bout the birds - especially the ones who shoot anything that flies for the Lulz.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  6. Oh good by AlanObject · · Score: 2

    Trump hates wind farms.

  7. Re:These things are huge! by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Informative

    If this is true, these things a gigantic...

    There are indeed gigantic. There are several big advantages to hugeness:

    1. The winds are steadier and stronger the higher you go. Since power production goes up as the cube of the wind speed, this makes a big difference.

    2. There is a lot less salt up high. It drops off nearly exponentially.

    3. Much of the maintenance scales less than linearly with turbine size, so it is more cost effective with big turbines.

  8. Re:These things are huge! by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 4, Informative

    yeah, the scale of these things is becoming increasingly ridiculous.

    --
    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
  9. Re:Won't somebody think of the birds? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Informative

    Is there a solution to repel birds?

    The solution is better education, especially in math, science, and critical thinking. Once we have done that, people will no longer be stupid enough to believe that the "bird problem" is a real issue.

    The best estimate for bird deaths from wind turbines is between 140,000 to 328,000 in North America

    ... and 3.7B birds are killed annually by domestic and feral cats in America. That is at least 10,000 times more.

  10. Re:It is not floating. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It is not floating as it is tied to the bottom.

    So do ships stop floating when they drop anchor?

  11. Re:These things are huge! by viperidaenz · · Score: 2

    That helicopter pilot better be careful. According to RSPB, anything flying in the vicinity of a wind turbine is instantly murdered.

  12. Re:Won't somebody think of the birds? by skids · · Score: 2

    At deep sea most bird flight paths are in migratory flocks. These are predictable and can be used to determine the least impact sites at which to install wind farms.

    Using radar data, the turbines can also be slowed when a flock approaches, reducing wake vortices (which can explode bird lungs) and making the blades more avoidable during the day. At night, many species fly much higher than turbines.

    Studies have also shown that some species adjust their migratory flight paths to avoid wind farms.

    Now, whether wind companies act responsibly is something that needs an eye kept on it. However, due to the propensity of crazy people to tilt at wind projects, the expansion so far seems to have been extra careful. Ironically, fossil fuel industry astroturf campaigns to obstruct wind farm growth have served an environmental purpose... though whether that balances the damage caused by the delay they have managed to accrue is highly doubtful.

  13. Re:It is not floating. by ItsJustAPseudonym · · Score: 2

    Well, strictly speaking, I guess it depends on how far from the bottom the object is tied.

  14. Re:Won't somebody think of the birds? by arth1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ... and 3.7B birds are killed annually by domestic and feral cats in America. That is at least 10,000 times more.

    Yeah, but the amount of eagles, albatrosses and lapwings and auks that Felix lays low is rather low. It's not about numbers, but impact on individual species and populations.

  15. Re:Won't somebody think of the birds? by arth1 · · Score: 2

    It is pretty much Bullshit. Birds manage to avoid all manner of moving things.

    The problem isn't birds hitting or being hit by the blades, but the vortices they create, which are strong enough to collapse bird lungs even when they clear the blade by a good margin. The birds have no natural instinct to detect and avoid invisible dangers normally not present in nature.
    A secondary problem (which is less of a problem in this case) is the noise they cause, which interrupts courting and nesting.

  16. Re:How Can It Work ? by Falconhell · · Score: 5, Informative

    The blades can be turned side on, known as feathering, to prevent overspeed.
    Used in aviation for the last 60 years.

  17. Re:Won't somebody think of the birds? by Strider- · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actually no, the turbines are independent of line frequency. Unless there's something modifying things, they will spin at the optimal speed to extract the maximum amount of energy out of the wind.

    The trick here is that the power goes through a high voltage DC step (and in this case, I presume the transmission to shore will be done using HVDC) then back through utility-scale inverters and into the AC used on the grid. The reason why you see them all spinning at the same speed is that the ones in shot are in similar wind conditions, so will be turning at the same speed (or at their max speed, whichever is lower).

    --
    ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
  18. Re:Suprise suprise by Aighearach · · Score: 2

    It is only the third time they posted this story, it is a bit early to declare it perpetual.

  19. Re:Won't somebody think of the birds? by Namarrgon · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you have evidence that turbines disproportionately affect certain species, please cite it.

    Otherwise, this chart shows that windows, communication towers, and even high-tension wires each kill thousands of times more birds annually, and those things are everywhere.

    --
    Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
  20. Re:Won't somebody think of the birds? by religionofpeas · · Score: 5, Informative
  21. Put all the costs on the table by sjbe · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'm just a little bit skeptical about the price and.. ..well. in the blurb it uses sneaky word tactics. see how it says that a price drop is expected. and that would make it cheaper than nuclear.

    It's not that hard to be cheaper than nuclear when you consider ALL the costs and the amount of regulation needed to ensure safety. The full cost of insuring nuclear tends to get overlooked. I'm not aware of any fission plant that does not require a nation state to provide insurance guarantees in order to get built. While they are relatively safe in general, no private insurance company is going to write a policy against something like Chernobyl. Nuclear is cost competitive with subsidies (insurance and otherwise) but it's not so cheap that you cannot imagine solar or wind being cheaper in the right circumstances. Not to mention that the cost of solar and wind generation are falling MUCH faster than the cost of nuclear fission generation. I don't have any principled objections to fission generation (and I prefer it to fossil fuels) but let's not pretend it's "too cheap to meter".

    (presumably nuclear with nuclear plant profits though calculated in, making it kinda like "cheaper than oil" when oil has plenty of profit built into it, making the price flexible downwards as soon as someone has a better energy source)

    Well, oil and other fossil fuels get subsidies amounting to about $5 Trillion globally every year (that's about 6% of global GDP in case you wondered) and I'm not even counting the cost of the environmental problems they cause. And yes, the profits are part of the equation too but if a new energy source (say solar) gets cheap enough to eat into the profit margins of oil then it is by definition competitive and that's a good thing. And frankly if I have my choice between a relatively clean renewable energy source and fossil fuels for about the same cost then it is a no brainer.

    1. Re:Put all the costs on the table by DarthVain · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ugh, I hate the continued comparison of nuclear and "green" energy. It is *not* an apples to apples comparison.

      I agree, I think most people have long dispelled the myth of "too cheap to meter" nuclear energy. Regulation, Construction costs, decommissioning, refurbishment, etc... Including the longer term inflation of all these things all escalate the TCO, even if the "fuel" costs might be "too cheap to meter". That said, the only things it should be compared to are other types of base load generation, which includes : Coal, Gas, Oil (though not really cost effective), Hydro (limited geographically). That is about it off the top of my head. Of those if you are looking to bring *new* sources online you are pretty much limited to Coal and Gas. Both of which have some pretty big footprints environmentally. Coal being the worse or dirtiest option, and Gas with Fracking not all that much better. Both are currently very cheap right now, but at least with Gas at current consumption how long will that be, particularly as the issues with fracking become more well known and opposition to new extraction potentially growing. That leaves nuclear as really still the best option for base load generation. Which is what frustrates me in regards to so many "environmentalists" condemning them and stagnating development.

      At some point in the far flung future perhaps we will have truly massively distributed generation through renewable green technologies, and perhaps at that point we've solved the storage capacity issue so that we can maintain grid electrification for more than a few hours, but until then I certainly do not see any real (better) alternatives. That is of course assuming even more far flung ideas such as fission and free energy don't get developed, but that isn't going to happen anytime soon, if ever.