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Tesla Seeks $1.5 Billion Junk Bonds Issue To Fund Model 3 Production (reuters.com)
As Tesla seeks fresh sources of cash to increase production of its new Model 3 sedan, the company announced on Monday that it would raise about $1.5 billion through its first-ever high-yield junk bond offering. "The debt offering marks Tesla's debut in the junk-bond market and the company will start road-shows on Monday, IFR reported, citing lead bankers on the deal," reports Reuters. From the report: Tesla has been riding high on investor expectations that its Model 3 will be a mass-market hit, with shareholders pushing its market value above that of General Motors Co and Ford Motor Co, the top two U.S. automakers that produce millions of cars each annually. But Tesla has yet to make an annual profit and its stock is a favorite among short-sellers, who continue to bet Tesla will fall short of its shareholders' high hopes. So far, Tesla has been raising money to pay its bills with a combination of equity offerings and convertible bonds, which eventually convert into shares. In March, the company raised $1.4 billion through a convertible debt offering. Following the announcement, Standard & Poor's assigned a "B-1" rating for the bond issue -- deep into junk credit territory. S&P also maintained its "B-" long-term corporate credit rating on Tesla. "We could lower our ratings on Tesla is execution issues related to the Model 3 launch later this year or the ongoing expansion of its Models S and X production lead to significant cost overruns," S&P said in a statement on the bonds. Meanwhile, Moody's assigned a junk "B3" rating to the bond issue and said the company's rating outlook was stable.
To bad DeLorean isn't still alive. He could have helped Tesla with some creative funding ideas...
I have to return some videotapes...
Tesla's gotta be better than mortgage-backed securities, right? And Bernanke/Yellen bought plenty of those.
Why.. why.. the pre-orders aren't enticing enough for investors? They can't even promise 6-8 weeks of delivery.
This is after another press release a few days ago where they stated that Tesla lost 60k pre-orders. That stock could be a hyperloop if manufacturing slips at all.
https://www.tesla.com/blog/tes...
o look ANOTHER attack on tesla...
And here you are, a member of slashdot and actively posting to its articles.
I wonder....what kind of person belongs in a shithole?
This is a real company with a real product with real facilities and employees and real ORDERS. If they can't raise capital on a favorable basis, who can?
Just askin'
Tesla Model 3 in Full Production
I'm not sure why people are focused on stocks when there is a technology website rather than a business/trader website. I keep reading all this bad-mouthing about Elon's ventures but they have all been panning out albeit a bit delayed. I get the feeling the people writing these articles may have a vested interesting in causing a momentary dip in the stock price because they continue to be wrong time and time again.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
With the Model 3 costing just under Eighty Thousand there aren't going to be many buyers.
First of all, you have the price all wrong because the base model is $35K. Secondly, Tesla already has more preorders to fill than they can keep up with which is why you don't see advertisements for Tesla's cars.
People with money, are not going to open their wallets for it.
That must explain why Tesla sells every single car they make. -_-
You're a dummy.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
According to this page, a Model 3 with every option costs $59,500.
Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
1. Source: "Zero Hedge is an English-language financial blog that aggregates news and presents editorial opinions from original and outside sources. The news portion of the site is written by a group of editors who collectively write under the pseudonym "Tyler Durden" (a character from the novel and film Fight Club). Zero Hedge's content has been classified as anti-establishment, and economically pessimistic,[3] and has been criticized for presenting extreme and sometimes pro-Russian views.[1][4]"
2. This sort of idiocy comes up once every few months. Put yourself in a potential buyer's shoes. You're thinking about possibly getting a Tesla, but haven't made the decision yet. Your tax credit is about to expire. Do A) keep dallying, or B) rush to make your decision, and order before it expires?
Of course the closer you get to expiration the more people buy, and then as soon as it expires the orders plunge off a cliff. Because those sales are already baked into the numbers. What sort of moron buys three days after a tax credit expires? Whenever you have an announced, predictable price spike on any product, this will happen. And it takes months before sales restore.
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
Personally I am considering a model 3. I would get the $5K luxury package and maybe an alternate color. $41K, minus perhaps $5K in government subsidy by the time my number comes up. Then, I save $1K per year in fuel and probably some additional in maintenance...and it become a pretty average-price car. Sure if you get all the options it costs more, but that's true of all cars.
Regular stores and malls are closing because ways of competition from Amazon, not a general decline in people buying stuff.
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
Who the heck modded the parent up?
I'm pretty sure the most tricked out Model 3 offered is in the mid 50s.
And stores and malls are closing because they are being replaced by online sales and Walmart - not due to any drop in consumer spending.
Even with Walmart, I drove through for my groceries today instead of going in. Once they develop free autonomous delivery, they can move to a warehouse on less valuable land.
I hope that they all die, and we restore the land to parks. Much of it is near roads in accessible locations that are ideal for badly needed places to get outdoors.
Yeah, nobody wants their stupid Model 3. Except for the half million people waiting in line for it, but apart from that, nobody! ;)
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
We need a new round of short sellers to lose another half billion dollars betting against Tesla ;) Hey, maybe a new TTAC Tesla Deathwatch while we're at it! ;)
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
Anyway, since Slashdot has gone hard on bear articles about Tesla, have a bull one.
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
The vast majority of which have been canceled.
Hehe... um... might want to check your pricing. Model 3 starts at $35k (without credits). With a standard featureset comparable to a BMW 3-Series optioned up to $41-42k.
Of course you can option it up further. The current announced options are:
* Premium upgrade package (misc added luxury details): +$5k
* Metallic paint: +$1k
* Long-range (310 instead of 220 miles range; 5,1 second instead of 5,6 second 0-60; 8yr/120k mi battery warranty instead of 8yr/100k mi): +$9k
* 19" "turbine" wheels: +$1,5k
* All-wheel drive: TBD (stated to be cheaper than on the Model S, where it costs $5k)
* Performance variants (should be a 0-60 in 3-4 seconds): TBD
So, with every option available you can bring it up to maybe $55k (without credits), possibly more for fully optioned-out performance versions. But it's not even possible to bring to $80k.
"Stores and malls" are not "closing at an alarming rate". The US is in an expansion.
Giving a bond offering is hanging onto stocks. That's the whole point, to avoid dilution of stock.
It's very simple. Tesla has customers lined up for nearly two years, and that's if their scaleup goes as planned. They have business out the wazoo, if they can deliver. Which takes tons of money. There's about a dozen different ways they can get large amounts of money, but the goal is to do so in the manner that minimizes how much ownership in the company they have to give up to do so.
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
First of all, you have the price all wrong because the base model is $44K.
Fixed that for you. You cannot purchase one at the $35K price. Eventually, Tesla will discontinue that version claiming lack of demand just like they when failed to deliver the base model for the S.
Did you short-sell Tesla? Can you create enough bad news about them in time not to lose your shirt?
Bruce Perens.
If another person on this thread makes that stupid misunderstanding of the "60k cancellations" statement I'm literally going to hit my head on the wall. That's 60k over the coarse of the past year, while the total number of active reservations has climbed to nearly half a million. After the first deliveries they were netting (read: positive) 1800 new reservations per day.
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
[citation needed]
Tesla lied.
Oh yeah, I forgot - you can also add in autopilot for $5k, and full self driving (not yet available) for $3k.
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
The 3 starts at $44K you cannot buy one at the $35K price point. Eventually Tesla will discontinue that model and lie that there was a lack of domain just like they discontinued the base model for the S.
The 60k number comes from Tesla. Do you pick and choose to believe only the things Tesla says that you can scream "Dooooom!" about and call everything else a lie?
The cash flow from customer deposits makes up revenue that is declared in SEC filings. So if you think that the company is faking it, and for some reason the SEC is missing it, by all means take your conspiracy to the SEC.
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
Well nobody with a clue wants their stupid Model 3. You can buy much better cars for the same money (or less) and actually pick them up in less than 2 years.
Yeah, try googling "Tesla stock" and clicking the "5 year" button. All of those smart people who craftily avoided having their money increase 12-fold....
Hey, you should write for TTAC! ;)
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
The 60k number comes from Tesla.
And fails to include massive number of cancellations after the car was finally revealed to the public.
Musk is a compulsive liar.
The 3 with PUP and the 310mi range starts at $44k. The short range version deliveries begin in fall, so not exactly a long wait.
And your data that it wasn't commonly purchased is?
The higher-range S and X models have continuously drifted down in price over time. Just this week, Model X prices were reduced by $3k. Do you have a problem with that? How exactly do you think things should proceed, if not "prices continue to drop over time as tech advances yield longer ranges, with the shortest range versions eventually discontinued" and "a reasonable attempt is made to have a distinguishing line between midrange prices/featuresets and high-end prices/featuresets"? No, serious, let's hear your copy of If I Ran The Zoo.
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
Got it. Tesla is lying to the SEC, and the SEC doesn't give a rat's arse.
You've convinced me! Subscribe me to your newsletter!
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
The 3 with PUP and the 310mi range starts at $44k. The short range version deliveries begin in fall, so not exactly a long wait.
Estimated delivery dates for the $35K keep getting pushed back. Eventually it will canceled all to together and Tesla will once again fail to deliver as promised. Plus their factory workers will go on strike and Tesla will go bankrupt.
And when the workers at the factory go on strike, Tesla will go bankrupt and dumbass morons like you will have lost everything and I'll be laughing at you.
selling more stock would mean musk/tesla losing stock value, diluting their share.
selling bonds means EVERYONE who holds the stock loses value for that amount. ..are you getting perhaps now why it is being given junk bond ratings?
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Model S was a $50k car for $60k, the Model 3 is a $35k car for & 49k. This is not a surprise to anyone who's been watching tesla for any length of time.
I own a model S, I love it and think it's the best car ever made. It is also nowhere even close to what Elon promised it would be.
Tesla is the absolute slimiest company I've ever done business with. When they aren't flat out lying about what their product can do, they're wildly exaggerating it, or actively at war with their existing customers.
The Model S is still the best car on the market today. But if I have to replace mine, I could not in good conscience give another penny to such an unethical company. Which is a shame because no other company has yet decided to try to compete with Tesla. I really hope I can keep my Model S going until a competitor arrives, but Tesla isn't making it easy.
"not yet available" is a bit of an exaggeration considering it will NEVER be available with the hardware currently on those cars.
Of course considering that the original AP hardware on the S can't do any of the things that Elon promised it would when it was first launched either, that's no suprise. Of course Tesla's been getting a pass on the outright lies around the model S so I'm not sure why they would bother caring about telling the truth on their newer cars.
Anyone who pays for "full self driving" is a sucker.
The 3 with PUP and the 310mi range starts at $44k. The short range version deliveries begin in fall, so not exactly a long wait.
That's an awful lot of certainty when talking about a company that has never once met a single deadline that they've imposed on themselves and has a history of many outright lies about future (and even current) products.
You probably also believed that the $50,000 Model S was going to happen.
A lot of people thought their money increased 12-fold under Bernie Madoff and Charles Ponzi, too. Until you actually the sell the stock, you haven't made a dime.
I own a model S, I love it and think it's the best car ever made.
Best made car ever.
Maybe I need to clarify. Most advanced. Best features. Best practicality.
I won't claim best build quality or best reliability.
There is simply nothing else on the market like it though, it has zero competition, so they can basically get away with anything, as they constantly prove. It's mind boggling to me that no other company is even making the slightest effort to compete.
Wow, so much stupidity in one post, where to begin...
Electric cars are old but long-range electric cars are not. As for advanced it's not just the electric powertrain, though that alone does put it away above anything else on the road today, it is also about all the other technology, it would be almost impossible for me to go back to a car that did not have all the simple features that I'm used to now, such things as the ability to turn on the climate control from my SmartWatch ahead of time even if the vehicle is in a closed garage. The autopilot system which completely changes the daily commute, the large screen navigation, waking up every morning to a fully fueled vehicle, and the list just goes on.
For practicality I'm talking such things as the huge cargo volume, the charging at home, the internet connectivity, or basically the day-to-day experience of using a vehicle.
As for your completely incorrect rant about charging times and range, the car has a longer range than I do between meal breaks and charges faster than I can eat I can't imagine needing anything more than that. When I do thousand km + road trips the fact that the car is electric only improves the experience and does not detract from it. In fact the length of time it takes me to do a thousand km road trip has not changed in the slightest from when I used to have an internal combustion vehicle.
As for not being able to repair it, that has zero to do with the car itself and everything to do with the company that sells it, and as I have stated before that company is the slimiest company on the planet. They are not a company that I would willingly give another penny to.
Show me a Camry with autopilot, a 17" touch screen, remote climate control, an always on Internet connection, 60 cubic feet of cargo volume, does 0 to 60 in 4.2, and that never needs to visit a gas station ever.
As for your links about repair I don't have a clue what you're trying to prove. I've already told you that the company that makes the car is the worst company on the face of the planet, I don't know how continuing to prove it is making any point. The car is great, I have absolutely no complaints with the design of the car, it is the best car design that has ever hit the road. Ever. My only true wish is that some other company would step up and compete against it, I would in a heartbeat sell the Tesla and buy another car that had the same functionality, the simple fact is however that no such vehicle exists. The moment one does I will be the first one in line to buy it. I have absolutely no love for Tesla in fact I have never disliked any company as much as I dislike Tesla, and that says an awful lot considering how much Ive hated some other companies in the past. You will not find me defending them as a company. It just happens to be that the car they've produced is the only one in its segment no other vehicle actually competes there. It's not that I don't think other companies could compete there, they definitely could, it's just that they don't seem to have the desire to do so.
I actually wish that a Camry would do the same things because if that was the case I would have a camry in a heartbeat.
Show me a Camry with autopilot
Autopilot is nothing more than cruise control, lane assist and auto braking all available on a camery. Except on a piece of shit tesla that's auto breaking.
a 17" touch screen
Only a dumbass moron thinks that's a good thing.
remote climate control
Remote car starters are nothing decades old.
ran always on Internet connection
Only a dumbass moron thinks that's a good thing.
60 cubic feet of cargo volume
Which is completely unusable.
does 0 to 60 in 4.2
Has a lower top speed and shit for range compared to a camera.
and that never needs to visit a gas station ever.
Only a dumbass moron things being stranded for hours with a piece of shit electric is better than spending one minute a gas station.
But go and enjoy your over priced camery with the build quality of a Kia dumbass.
How is ir a bailout when a company issues more debt for them selves, without aby governmebt help?
Man it sucks that you've been pulled in to arguing with the troll. I'm really sorry you have to put up with that, but I would like to say that as someone thinking about buying a Tesla I'm curious what sorts of things make you call them the slimiest company? I'm one of those people with a preorder reservation for a Model 3. Should I still get one?
Seriously! When did /. readers, optimistic about the future, get replaced with a bunch of whining do-nothings? 80% of the comments are anti-Tesla... what have you people ever done!?
You know, the "Tesla is going to go bankrupt any day now" screed was tiresome back when TTAC was doing it a decade ago. Now it's just silly.
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
I actually agree with that. I think it's stupid to pay for full self driving, and I think Tesla is being way too optimistic the timeframe. I'm not prepared to say that the hardware can't support it, but I think the challenge - both regulatory and technological - is IMHO much harder than their timeframe supports.
AP works, although its reliability level gives it mixed reviews (more positive than negative, but still decidedly mixed). Tesla really got set back when they had to start over with AP2 after the contract dispute; it's only just now getting up to the capabilities of AP1. Some people find that AP takes a great load off their mind on long trips, having only to make the occasional correction rather than hyperfocus on every detail - while others find it puts more stress on them, having to watch doing nothing but still have to make corrections at random intervals. Most people like the adaptive cruise control, but that's not as impressive as what people really want from autopilot. Self parking and the like is also popular, but not considered worth the value on its own.
There are a lot of people who think that autopilot is "the reason" to get a Tesla - they love it, they think it's the future, etc. Other reviews are decidedly more mixed. And of course FSD is a phantom product at the moment.
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
Yes, they keep getting pushed back, and have been a whopping zero times. The only pushing of the schedule was when the whole schedule got pushed forward last year. And so far at least they've met the pushed-forward schedule.
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
You mean like delivering the first 30 vehicles at the end of July 2017? When the original announcement was that delivery would begin in late 2017?
They're currently selling a $35k Model S (the Model 3). I'll have that one, thanks.
And for the record, the Model S was supposed to go on sale with a base price of $57,4k at the 40kWh pack level. Which it did, and was manufactured for a year before they canceled it because only 4% of their preorders were for it (shock of all shocks, people want more range than a Leaf). Golly gee willickers, what a scandal, a company cancelling an unpopular product line after giving it a year. I assume you find it even more scandalous that people who had active reservations on the 40kWh version got a 60kWh pack locked to 40kWh (aka, upgradeable, faster charging, less stress on the cells) at no extra charge?
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
They're currently selling a $35k Model S (the Model 3). I'll have that one, thanks.
The Model 3 is not a $35k Model S. The Model S already has iffy interior quality compared to other vehicles in its price class, the Model 3 degrades that even further to meet the price point.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
What's the symbol? What's the yield?
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
The abundant test drive reviews disagree with you.
Motor Trend - Exclusive: Tesla Model 3 First Drive Review - Motor Trend
Top Gear- Tesla Model 3 review: first drive of Elon Musk's affordable EV
The Verge - A closer look at Tesla Model 3's spartan interior
The Verge - Tesla Model 3 first drive: this is the car that Elon Musk promised
Bloomberg - Tesla’s Model 3 Arrives With a Surprise 310-Mile Range
Bloomberg[/COLOR] - Driving Tesla’s Model 3 Changes Everything
Car and Driver - 2018 Tesla Model 3: Everything We Know | Feature | Car and Driver
CNET - Tesla Model 3 is well worth the hype
Car Advice - Tesla Model 3 quick drive review | CarAdvice
Fortune - Here’s What Reviewers Think About Tesla’s Model 3 So Far
Ars Technica - All the things the Internet hates about the Tesla Model 3 have me excited
Mashable - Driving a Tesla Model 3 is pretty damn awesome
TechCrunch - Your smartphone is the key for the Tesla Model 3
But hey, feel free to live in your own little world and deny reality to your heart's content.
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
The reviewers I watch on Youtube have all commented on the cheapness of the interior. I don't think that it's going to impede sales or anything, but it's not a luxury vehicle. Even the Model S is only mid-range in terms of luxury appointments. An Audi ten years older is nicer inside. Mine is even older than that, and at least everything is soft-touch, which is still not true inside the Model S. They've also just eliminated the leather seating option; making it non-standard is the best decision for a lot of reasons, but eliminating it altogether is the wrong one.
Meanwhile, the best things people have to say about the Model 3 interior are "minimalist", "uncluttered" or "airy" (from your own links — have you read them?) When the reviewers are talking about the negative space in your design, that means that there is nothing noteworthy in your design. But the materials are cheap. This is not true of all plastics, for example the synthetic leather on the seats in the Model S — but even the Model S has cheap materials exposed in the cockpit. It's possible that Tesla's new designer (from Volvo) will fix these problems, but improvement in the Model S can't come before the 2018 model year, and we already know what this year's Model 3 is going to look like inside: spartan.
The interior of the Model 3 is completely acceptable at its starting price point. I'm not sure that it is really acceptable at its upper price point, but I'm sure they'll fix that. I'm sure they'll fix the interior of the Model S as well, which is unacceptable anywhere on its pricing spectrum, but it's honestly ridiculous that it's taken them this long.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Apple is the absolute slimiest company I've ever done business with. When they aren't flat out lying about what their product can do, they're wildly exaggerating it, or actively at war with their existing customers.
FTFY
I don't know what "reviewers you watch on Youtube", but I'm going to guess that a whopping zero percent of them have ever been inside a Model 3. The vehicle was opened up to the press, which is not a huge total number of people, at the launch event. People who were at the launch event - mainly employees and their guests - also got rides. The only other people to ride in them are the first 30 owners - mainly Tesla board members and the like - and people they've given rides too. Odds are that your random Youtube "reviewers" have never even seen one in person.
But the journalists writing articles for Motor Trend and the like have. So read what they actually say about it.
Actual reviewers who've been in actual vehicles disagree with you. See above.
Again, facepalm. One of the main things reviewers have described about the Model 3 is how soft everything is. The seats are described as being almost like a pillow.
Look, you seriously need to get your info from people who have actually been inside the vehicle. Not random BSers on Youtube.
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
Well look at all the other automobile manufacturers, many of them have failed to be profitable in many years. And these are well established corporations with almost a century of history building meager evolutionary products rather than innovative ones.
All things considered, Tesla is doing surprisingly well considering. I do hope they succeed. But I think they need to move beyond cars and expand into infrastructure to do that.
Umm. Google didn't say that about the Model 3. But maybe you know more about car pricing than me. I'm NOT against electric cars. I think electric cars are the greatest thing since sliced bread! But even 35k is a hefty price for the average Joe or Susan. And Insurance rates are NOT going down!! OUCH!.. But a million miles on one car? That's TEMPTING.
Sorry you took my comment that way. I wanted you to know that its not like Elon Musk to take a chance on his stocks like that. He's a brainey bright dude!
Every word out of their mouths is a lie.
When they unveiled AP originally they made the following promises as they took everyone's money:
- hands free on ramp to off ramp driving
- summon that will find It's way to you anywhere you are on private property
- automatic emergency braking that would bring the vehicle to a complete stop
- stop sign and traffic light detection
- automatically adjust to speed limits
- system that worked at any speed
Not a single one of those items was ever delivered. Now they have AP2.0 which does even less than the original, but that they now claim will be full self driving if you pay enough money. Thing is, AP2.0 can never be full self driving. It doesn't include enough hardware to do so. There is no way they'll ever get approval to put it on the road with autonomy when it doesn't even have rear of cross traffic radars. And the version currently available still hasn't caught up to their own product from 2 years ago.
And it doesn't end there either. They've also been caught lying about horsepower, battery capacity, etc. After charging people an extra 10,000 for ludicrous mode they were caught putting counters in the cars that limit your acceleration if you use it too often, the list just goes on and on.
And all of that is only secondary to my real objections to them.
After purchase they actually reached in to the car that I own outright, and without my permission removed functionality that it had at delivery. In fact, with every single software update they removed more functionality. Autopilot was at its peak at the end of 2015, ever since then every software update has added nags, limited where it can be used, limited the speed with which it can be used, added punishment if it nags you more than 3 times in a trip, etc.
You can pretend that software updates are optional, but if you don't update other features stop working, for example, of you're still on the firmware where AP was at its peak, you'd no longer have voice control or mapping.
Beyond that, Tesla won't allow any third party repair. There is only one place that can fix a Tesla, and that's Tesla themselves. And I'm not just talking major repairs either, you can't change a door handle or a side mirror without reflashing the firmware, something only Tesla can do. And even if you could, they won't sell many parts to any third party. In addition to that, they have the highest hourly shop rates I've ever seen, and extremely high parts prices, if you can even get an appointment, and if they can even get the part themselves. Forums are full of people waiting 6 or 8 months for parts for collision repairs. And 2-3 months for a simple service appointment. And that's before Model 3 hits the road in large quantities.
Tesla is the only company I've ever seriously considered a lawsuit against, and I still haven't ruled it out.
You've obviously never experienced Tesla. They make Apple look honest, open, and inexpensive.
I really dislike Apple, but Tesla takes every horrible thing that Apple does she cranks it up to 11.
I'm sorry but I disagree. People don't have the money to shop, period. ON the other hand - the Web: Let's think about it for a second. Example: You buy a coat or a pair of pants online, They don't fit or something is wrong with them. You have to re-box the item, Spend the time to go, and/or wait in line in the post office if its busy. Talk to the post person to get an address label. Wait for the product to get back to get your money, or exchange the product. - Example: Going to the store. Something doesn't fit you. You simply put it back on the rack or whatever. You move on to the next item. It fits. You buy the right one. Done! One trip did that all. Even I shop on the Web for computer/electronic/cookware items. Because the stores now only stock mainstream items. I want to see and feel what I'm going to buy before I buy it. I'm not going to blindly buy a car or a motorcycle online without seeing/driving it. I still go to Office max for items. The are the same price or a few bucks more. With a 2 week trial period to return the item I'm sold! And I get to closely visualize the product when I'm at the store. Almost everyone in this room knows that a computer PSU that is light, is cheaply made.
Again, that's the price I saw on Google. And again, maybe you know more about prices that I. And maybe you can afford the price, and insurance, on that vehicle.. I do LIKE a car that gets a million miles! (don't know about it rusting to death before it does :(
"Tesla is the absolute slimiest company I've ever done business with." And you accuse Tesla of exaggerating? I own a 2016 S and I can say without hesitation that it's the best car buying experience and the best "dealer" experience of any car I've owned. Ever. The car is exactly what I hoped for and even exceeded my expectations. Autopilot is wonderful on long trips. Charging/Supercharging works as advertised. The car is wicked powerful and will effortlessly (really, half throttle, no drama) embarrass "muscle cars" leaving a stop light. Room for the kids and plenty of stuff. Comfortable and soooo quiet. Pre-warm/cool in the garage. No idling in carpool and filter for the tail pipes in front of you. I could go on.
"I really hope I can keep my Model S going until a competitor arrives, but Tesla isn't making it easy" B.S. Now I think you're posing. Probably a dealer pissed off about Tesla's sales model. The cars come with 8 year battery and powertrain warranties and Tesla has backed it up.
Problems? I haven't had any major problems, just some minor stuff. Sticky wiper blade. Door trim misaligned. Dash rattle. And what did the "unethical", "slimiest" company ever do? Fixed it all. Fast. Gave me a loaner. Really, the only thing they didn't do was come pick up my car. And they actually have a ranger service, so I guess that's covered too.
Contrast that with my local Jeep dealer who told me it would be a month before they could fix my jeep (wouldn't start - I fixed it myself thanks to forums) and again a month for a software update (recall related). Oh, and spilled oil all over my motor during an oil change and didn't put the cap on right so it popped off.
Zero profits, increasing year over year losses, and zero prospect for scaled up production. Then of course there is general company mismanagement, violation of capitalist agency ignoring the rights of stockholders, and mistreatment of workers on a consistent basis. Musk is incompetent and any new investors are idiots, while any old investors are just patsies.
>Tesla is the absolute slimiest company I've ever done business with. When they aren't flat out lying about what their product can do, they're wildly exaggerating it, or actively at war with their existing customers.
The Model S is still the best car on the market today.
You're fucking retarded.
This is why I hate stereotypical white people. Give them the fucking best bang for your buck car on the goddamn planet, only some of them will admit that. And the remaining ignorant asshole retards will claim that the company is slimy, even though they haven't been in a goddamn showroom, used car lot or been househunting in 5+ years.
'wildly exaggerting it'
Welcome to marketing. Did you fucking test drive the car first? Did you do your research?
'actively at war with their existing customers'
Apple and Microsoft called. They said that they're glad that you don't know anything about context, and are glad that you don't understand how their 'planned obsolence' and Windows 10 S operating systems are being continued as we type.
$35k is approximately the average price for a new car in the US.
As for insurance, over on the Tesla forums, most people's quotes are coming at surprisingly low amounts - often replacing vehicles that are several years old at the same rate. A likely reason is Tesla's heavy focus on crash safety, including various crash avoidance features (autobraking, etc).
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
Autopilot is amazing yes but it still can't do even a single one of the many items listed at the D reveal event. You rave about how great the car is and I agree it is the best car ever made. However Tesla has lied about every single function they've put on it they've been caught lying about battery pack sizes, horsepower, capabilities of autopilot, not to mention the little scndal where they put counters in ludacris cars to disable the feature if you use it more than a handful of times. In addition to that autopilot was at its peak in 2015 and has gone downhill significantly since then, in fact they reached into people's cars and actively removed functionality from the vehicle after sale despite the fact that they no longer own the vehicle. That is what I consider slimy, no company has the right to remove functionality from a product after they sell it. If they think they shouldn't have included that functionality their only recourse is to not include it in future sales, they have no right to remove things from a car they've already sold. As for the car buying experience it is the absolute worst car buying experience I've ever had. Despite buying a used vehicle from them I was not able to see the vehicle before purchase, I wasn't even able to see pictures of the vehicle before purchase, the only thing I could see was computer renderings and what the vehicle theoretically looked like. Additionally despite the fact that the vehicle was in stock it still took them 2 months to deliver it, that's inexcusable for any vehicle that's in stock. Additionally at no point during that two months were they even able to give me a rough estimate as to delivery date until suddenly I got a phone call from them saying they wanted to deliver it in less than an hour midday on a weekday and I that I better have all the money available and be ready to receive the vehicle right at that exact second.
Now they continue their charade by promising full self driving in a vehicle that obviously will never ever be capable of it. There's no way any government is going to allow a full self-driving vehicle that has no cross traffic or rear radar on it. but in true Tesla form they're going to take your money for it and then move the goalposts when it finally comes time.
And I won't even go into the ridiculous repair system where only Tesla is allowed to make repairs, even to minor things like a door handle, because you need to reflash the firmware and only Tesla allowed to do that. And then with the most expensive hourly shop rate and some of the most expensive parts in the industry, and no ability to go elsewhere for them. We could also talk about the people waiting 6-8 months or longer for parts for a collision repair or two to three months for a simple service appointment.
Don't get me wrong I love my Model S I just can't stand the company that sold it. And for that reason I really wish there was actual competition. As it stands there is not a single other vehicle on the market that competes with the model S.
I never said the car wasn't the best car in existence. In fact I specifically said it was.
Is the company, not the car, I have a problem with.
Exaggerating is one thing, but they flat out lied. They haven't delivered even a single one of the feature they claimed autopilot would do, they lied about the battery capacity, and the horsepower, and they actively STOLE functionally from the vehicle after delivery.
Yes I test drove it, but the features I paid for weren't available at the time. Yes I researched, and every single statement from the company was consistent about what I was buying, they were also all lies. And even if I had test driven this exact car before purchase, something Tesla doesn't allow, it still would have been a different car then than it is now as it had more functionality when I bought it than it dioes now due to their theft of features after sale.
Not sure why you bring Microsoft in to this, they don't make cars, and although they do awful things, they still aren't on par with Tesla for dishonesty.
Tesla can make 25% profit on each vehicle, and still not be a profitable company. They're not the same thing.
Let's simplify. I sell a widget for $100. Each widget costs me $75 to make. I earn $25 per widget. However, I can only build a 1,000 widgets. My maximum earnings are $25,000. But I have orders for 5,000 and market potential for 100,000. But in order to produce that many I will need to build a new factory for $500,000. So I borrow money to build the $500,000 factory. Now I have a $100,000 a year loan payment. I am running a loss of -$75,000 a year. So is that bad? Well, it depends. If I can now scale up to 5,000 orders. I'll earn a $125,000 on my widgets, and after the paying the -$100K I'll have a $25,000 annual profit. What, that's no better than what I had before I took this loan. True... But now my factory can make up to 100,000 widgets. If I can continue to increase market share I can grow. And now I have room to be profitable beyond $25,000 - which I was capped at prior. And this is essentially what is going on.
The question is, do I really have 5,000 orders waiting and market potential for more. If so, then this is not a concern, but if those are not realized then there will be issues. I need at a minimum the 5,000 orders to remain in business. But if I can even get 10,000 then I will achieve growth and profitability.
Funny, the local Tesla Service Center has a lower labor rate than the VW dealer, the Mercedes dealer, the BMW dealer, and the Toyota dealer, all nearby. The last time I needed a service appointment I got one in two days.
And why won't the government allow self driving without cross traffic or rear radar? Right now you're driving a car and you don't have cross traffic sensors or rear radar, you have eyes. The car as it stands can look in more directions at once than you can.
The owner of Tesla has billions in wealth. Why isn't he footing the bill?
I don't know what "reviewers you watch on Youtube", but I'm going to guess that a whopping zero percent of them have ever been inside a Model 3.
All of them have. Stop choking on old media cock.
and at least everything is soft-touch, which is still not true inside the Model S.
Again, facepalm. One of the main things reviewers have described about the Model 3 is how soft everything is. The seats are described as being almost like a pillow.
The fact that you are talking about seats shows that you know fuck-all about what "soft-touch materials" means in automotive interior. Please fuck off.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I think you're justifying your views based on your preferences. I don't think the evidence supports your view as being in the dominant trend, but I'm no economic expert.
From what I see, consumer spending gains have been steadily outpacing inflation even in the face of a falloff in vehicle sales since vehicles peaked in the 2014 timeframe. If that isn't due to an increase in spending on the stuff normally sold in stores even while stores are closing, then what is it?
In addition, it appears that e-commerce has been growing at a steady rate of 13-19% year over year every year since 2009 while overall commerce growth is much lower. So, e-commerce is scavenging commerce.
I'd say that the numbers don't hold up your opinion that the closing of stores is due to apparent problems in the consumer spending front. Rather, many people are happy with shopping online and as the online businesses get better and better at customer service (returning clothes to Amazon is just a matter of putting the package back on your doorstep), the changeover will only accelerate. Eventually, the brick and mortar stores will lose enough volume that they will have to change their business to one of selling at a premium to the few left who have to have that hands on experience.
The car can't look around the dirt on the camera. You can. Thinking of which, Tesla's AP cameras (with the exception of the front one) have no way of cleaning dirt or even rain off of them. They won't work in inclement weather.
"full self driving" is just as honest as "hands free on-ramp to off-ramp" was on AP1, or how about "will come to you anywhere you are on private property" remember that lie? how about "recognizes stop signs and traffic lights"? AP 1 was going to do that too. in fact of all the claims Elon made about AP during the D event, I can't actually find ANY that it has delivered on.
Tesla has been given a free pass on all their lies so far, they see no reason to start telling the truth now.
Well, gee, this should be really easy then! Link one.
Believe it or not, seats are part of an interior. And please reread the first sentence, with a focus on the word everything.
He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
What company didn't get government help? Tesla got MILLIONS worth of hand outs.
Well, I got new, 2017, bare bones, Toyota Corolla for under $24,000.00. (extended waranty cost me close to $3,000.00) But you must be thinking of some other brands, which indeed are more expensive. (I'm cheap, I almost bought a Yaris) It's interesting to know that Tesla's Insurance is low, I'm pleasantly surprised! If I had the money, I'd buy one. I love electric cars. Gas Engines: Due to frictional losses, you only get 10% of horsepower at the wheels. A 500 peak gas horsepower engine is only getting 50 hp to the wheels, due to frictional losses. A 50 hp DC Electric motor, with pulse width modulation can deliver 50 hp after just a few revolutions. They can temporarily withstand over voltage. But you pay with a shorter lifespan Here's an Electric Drag Racing Site that has existed for for way over a decade: http://www.nedra.com/
I hope what you are saying does not happen at least till the end of my life. I can't picture not going to the shopping mall, grocery store, or hardware store. For me, what would I have left to do? Stay home and play with my computer? Play my piano? (fun for a while). And never being able to see or hold the object in my hand before I buy it? Well.. I guess everybody has different tastes. It leaves very few places to see people, and perhaps even to start a conversation.
I wouldn't be surprised if the stock dropped in value once this bubble cools down. But I think the company will still be around in 5 years and they'll deliver more Model 3s.
There was an article on here complaining about the changes in the newer generation recently (as in probably every week of slashdot s existence). The truth is, the older generations almost always end their reign with their lifestyle subsumed by the new. It is the way of the world. I do my best to minimize it by trying to focus on how amazing it is, seeking to understand the new balances, and adapting as much as I can. Fighting it just leads to misery.
There's a difference between lying and circumstances changing. Like how when a newly wed man says he'll love his wife forever, then 5 years later she cheats on him and they divorce. Now he doesn't love her. Did he lie when he originally said he'd love her forever?
When Tesla made grandiose claims regarding their Autopilot they were in a relationship with Mobileye. The status of that relationship changed, which also changed what they could deliver with regards to autopilot. That's not a lie.
Really, any prediction about the future are just that, predictions. So, when they don't come true, they're not lies, they're just failed predictions.
It's all part of a pattern.
My 85kWh battery is only 77kWh,
the P85D's 691 horespower is only 463,
Ludicrous mode batteries had a counter in them to neuter the acceleration after a set number of launches,
The list goes on. These are not the actions of a reputable company.
As for the Mobileye thing, that had no bearing on many of Tesla's actions. For instance, the AP1 cars have nags if you take your hands off the wheel, originally they only occurred in turns, now they occur every 30 seconds, and if they happen 3 times you have to pull over and park before you can use the system again. It originally worked at any speed on any road, now it works only to 5mph over the random number the car picks that it incorrectly thinks the speed limit is on many roads. Mobileye didn't enforce that, Tesla did, and tellingly, they did it AFTER delivery of the cars. In other words, they removed functionality AFTER sale, that's illegal in most of the world.
Never mind that Tesla never said that these features "might" happen, or "may" happen, they didn't use any qualifiers, and they DID take money based on the promises. If it's only something that "might" happen, maybe they shouldn't have taken anyone's money until it did? Or when it didn't happen maybe they should have refunded the money that they took from people through fraudulent means?
And now of course, AP2 still hasn't caught up to where AP1 was in October of 2015, and yet we're supposed to believe that AP2 will be full self driving at some point in the future if we just fork over the money and wait. How big a sucker would you have to be?
Your 85kWh battery is software limited to 77kWh to increase the longevity of the battery, since charging it to full capacity reduces the longevity. The batteries do technically have the capacity you mention, so it's not incorrect. What does the actual kWh of the battery matter anyways? When it comes down to it, we really want to know is what the EPA range is and how long it'll take to charge from empty.
The horsepower outputted by the motors is still 691, but there are other limitations that make the useable horsepower 463, which is actually just an average, this number can be lower or higher. Therefore it's not incorrect to state 691 since that's what the motors are capable of outputting this under ideal conditions. Being upset about this is akin to being upset that a car can't ALWAYS go 600km before running out of gas (because this depends on whether or not you start with a full tank or how fast you drive).
Ludicrous mode is/was limited due to the extra wear and tear that it puts on the car. Alerting drivers of this fact is a good thing, not a bad thing. And as you are probably aware, you can bypass this warning now and continue to damage your car, so this complaint is not applicable.
The changes in AP nags and requirements were directly related to problems associated with AP accidents. For example that guy who got beheaded. After this, too many people were saying that the system should be made safer. I wouldn't blame this one on Tesla, it's those people who insist that the system will kill us all who are ruining it for everyone.
And you're expecting Tesla to quantify every future prediction with "might" or "may"? Every statement about the future is automatically a "might" or "may" statement.
I can't comment on the parity between AP1 and AP2 as I have no personal experience, but I've read that AP2 is really close now. It says in that article that the "latest update is bringing Autopilot 2.0 back to around the same level of efficiency as the first generation of Autopilot".
Wow... Stockholm syndrome much?
No, my battery is NOT software limited, it is quite simply less than 85kWh. They lied about the capacity. This has been confirmed by people disassembling the battery, and testing the individual cells. This is NOT a software limit, this is false advertising.
The horsepower output of the motors isn't relevant if the battery can't output it. Why don't normal car manufacturers say that their axles are capable of 50,000 horsepower then? because it would be stupid to quote the horespower of a part that isn't the limiting factor. Again, Tesla lied and used false advertising. sure it can be higher than 463, but it can not, under any circumstance even come close to the advertised number.
I love how you think the ludicrous mode complaint is irrelevant now because Tesla was caught, and after much arguing, finally relented under threat of many lawsuits and now allows people to access what they paid for. That's not Tesla being right, that's Tesla being caught! They never advertised any limits to ludicrous mode, they simply quoted the performance numbers and took money. That's called fraud and false advertising. They were caught and had to back track, how ethical of them.
The changes in AP nags do exactly ZERO to enhance safety, what they do is allow Tesla's PR department (the only part of the company Tesla cares about) to claim a few wins. It's still illegal, unethical, and fraudulent behaviour to remove functionality after purchase. If they regretted their decision they could have stopped selling the feature to new customers, but you can't retroactively change the terms of a sale after it is complete.
And, no, I'm not expecting Tesla to qualify every statement, I'm asking (not expecting) them to stop LYING TO CUSTOMERS and to stop TAKING MONEY BY FRAUDULENT MEANS.
They are the least ethical company on the entire planet. And that takes a LOT of doing.