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Here's Why People Don't Buy Things With Bitcoin (vice.com)

An anonymous reader shares a report: One reason for this, if you live in Toronto like me (or anywhere else for that matter), is that there's basically nowhere to spend digital coins in the real world. Coinmap, a service that maps bitcoin-accepting locations all over the world, shows a few places that accept bitcoin in Toronto, but it's clearly out of date -- I called several businesses listed on the site and they had no idea what bitcoin even is. A bigger problem is perfectly illustrated in a Reddit post from Wednesday morning complaining that a bitcoin transaction worth just $9 still hasn't gone through the network after two days of waiting. Two. Days. The likely reason is that the fee attached to the transaction in order to incentivize faster confirmation -- 50 cents, which is about as much of a premium as I'd pay for a $9 transaction -- simply wasn't enough. "Should I have paid $3 on a $9 transfer to get it processed?" the person wrote.

26 of 376 comments (clear)

  1. bitcoin isn't real, either by turkeydance · · Score: 1, Insightful

    says the real world

    1. Re:bitcoin isn't real, either by OrangeTide · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Philosophical debate on reality aside, there is nothing less real about Bitcoin than other fiat currency.
      The design and process used to exchange BTC is probably deeply flawed, if these experiences are any indication. I can certainly whip out examples of currency systems through out history that were flawed in some way, and in many cases led to their eventual abandonment. I see no reason that we should assume that BTC will remain with us forever as an exchange medium, one day it will be a footnote in history and perhaps something similar but vastly improved will be available instead.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    2. Re:bitcoin isn't real, either by nine-times · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not necessarily. A lot of stuff doesn't have to do with any real or perceived value. Prices can be driven by speculators speculating what other speculators will speculate.

      That is, it's gamblers betting on what they think other gamblers will bet on, knowing that those other gamblers are also betting on what other gamblers will bet on. Even if they're pretty sure that Bitcoin is all hype and will eventually collapse, they're placing a bet that the bubble won't burst quite yet.

    3. Re:bitcoin isn't real, either by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Philosophical debate on reality aside, there is nothing less real about Bitcoin than other fiat currency.

      Sure there is. The US government has a law that says that businesses must accept US dollars. The fact that other people are legally required to accept it makes it "real money".

      Now you can get all hypothetical and theoretical and say, "fiat money is always made up", but you said you wanted to put aside the philosophical debate on reality. Being very practical, there's not really anything to stop the value of bitcoin from dropping to zero tomorrow. There are a lot of things that will stop the value of the US dollar from dropping to zero tomorrow.

    4. Re:bitcoin isn't real, either by Computershack · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Philosophical debate on reality aside, there is nothing less real about Bitcoin than other fiat currency.

      My bank notes have a promise to pay the bearer the face value from the Bank of England, the bank of the world's fifth richest nation.

      --
      I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either. - Scott Adams
    5. Re:bitcoin isn't real, either by OrangeTide · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The US government has a law that says that businesses must accept US dollars.

      What law? I do not believe there is a US federal law that requires private businesses or individuals to accept currency from the Federal Reserve Bank. We all choose to do so because it is incredibly convenient and there are many laws and statues that encourage it.

      But as far as I know, I can choose to refuse cash money and only accept my payments in barter. (I mean if I really don't want to run a successful business)
      I will have to find some US currency to pay the tax man though, they quit accepting bushels of wheat as payment some long time ago.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    6. Re:bitcoin isn't real, either by The+Snowman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The US government has a law that says that businesses must accept US dollars.

      What law? I do not believe there is a US federal law that requires private businesses or individuals to accept currency from the Federal Reserve Bank. We all choose to do so because it is incredibly convenient and there are many laws and statues that encourage it.

      You are correct. While it is legal tender for all debts, it is not a requirement to accept it. Furthermore, the word "debt" implies repayment. There is a difference between a straight-up trade (buying something at a register), receiving goods in advance (eating dinner, then paying the bill), and financing a debt (buying a car using a loan). There are nuances between those scenarios that affect legal requirements for payment, and furthermore, an additional consideration is payment in dollar equivalents such as using a credit card to purchase something using dollars, but not physical currency.

      The long and short of it is you are correct, most transactions have no requirement to use U.S. dollars, but everyone does so anyway because nobody barters in livestock anymore.

      --
      24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
    7. Re:bitcoin isn't real, either by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's part of the problem. Bitcoin is far from being any sort of common currency, so any merchant will be thinking about converting BTC back to USD or whatever other local currency. When BTC price fluctuates so much - why should I offer to sell you something today when I could make more USD by selling it to you tomorrow? Conversely why should I accept BTC from you today if I could lose money just due to BTC's daily price fluctuations. After all, I am not guaranteed to be able to cash out my BTC instantly - there's an arbitrary delay. If I'm a merchant and my profit margin is 10%, I'd be a fool to commit to a price in a currency that has been known to swing 30% or more during a single day. That is why BTC won't be mainstream until it stops being so volatile. And it will never stop being volatile because speculation is the only thing driving BTC.

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      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    8. Re:bitcoin isn't real, either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hi, I have some extremely valuable tulips that I will trade to you for that government backed fiat currency.

    9. Re:bitcoin isn't real, either by Dunbal · · Score: 3, Insightful

      On the other hand, the long term trend of bitcoin value has been up

      So back to problem 1 - why should I agree to sell you something today when I can make more money by waiting and selling it to you tomorrow?

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      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    10. Re:bitcoin isn't real, either by omnichad · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's a pyramid scheme combined with a game of hot potato. Just don't be the last one holding the Bitcoin.

    11. Re: bitcoin isn't real, either by StikyPad · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly. Bitcoin will never have the core feature of a desirable currency, which is stability. The only people who transact in volatile currencies are those who must -- namely the citizens of the countries that issue them. If you own BTC, there's little incentive to spend it because you likely believe it will be worth more of a "real" currency in the future, so you're holding it. If you believe it's going to depreciate, then you're probably going to liquidate by selling all of it, not by buying a pizza and paying transaction fees. And if you believe it's going to remain relatively stable, then I want some of what you're smoking.

    12. Re:bitcoin isn't real, either by spun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Money has three primary functions, a unit of account, a store of value and a medium of exchange. Your examples only function as a very limited medium of exchange, they do not provide a way to store value and they certainly can't be used sensibly as a unit of account. The volatility of Bitcoin is neither here nor there when using it as a medium of exchange, but it is most definitely a relevant consideration if you are using it as a store of value or unit of account. Here's a little primer on what money actually is: https://www.boundless.com/busi...

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    13. Re: bitcoin isn't real, either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's silly that you folks are arguing against the effects of deflation.

      We've got plenty of data that shows what happens when your currency is deflating: people rationally hold their money. That's one reason why central banks are so afraid of deflation.

    14. Re:bitcoin isn't real, either by Oligonicella · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Excellent. I was going to mention that little bubble but you beat me to it and - well done. Most here will have to look it up.

    15. Re:bitcoin isn't real, either by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'd expect you to lower the amount of bitcoin you expect.

      Oh, so you admit that BTC has no real value because even you want to peg it to some other fiat currency. You just proved why BTC will never become a standard. Everyone is looking to see what BTC can get them in USD, GBP, EUR, JPY, etc and not BTC as a store of real value.

      If people were planning on keeping BTC, everyone would be flocking to BTC to use it as a long term store of value and everyone would be thinking how many BTC their government issue fiat currency could buy them. After all, it has already been pointed out that BTC keeps gaining value. So only a fool would not want to store say their life savings in BTC. People don't though - why is that? Because they know that BTC's exponential growth is speculative only.

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      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    16. Re:bitcoin isn't real, either by zieroh · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Money has three primary functions, a unit of account, a store of value and a medium of exchange. Your examples only function as a very limited medium of exchange, they do not provide a way to store value and they certainly can't be used sensibly as a unit of account.

      You're right, but you're simultaneously missing a key point: Money as we have known it for thousands of years has been bound by the physical aspect of that money, and the contours of money and how it is used have had to obey that fact. Bitcoin fails some (or even most) of the classic tests of money, but also introduces new facets and new abilities. Bitcoin isn't fiat currency, though it shares some aspects in common. It isn't gold either, but shares some aspects there too.

      This may seem obvious to state, but Bitcoin is something new, unlike everything that came before it. And yes, it could certainly fail. But try for a minute to imagine what Bitcoin (or something like it) could do, and how that might alter the way we do business and exchange money in the future.

      TL;DR: Think bigger. You'll not get anywhere by pooh-poohing the future.

      --
      People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
    17. Re:bitcoin isn't real, either by DRJlaw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Philosophical debate on reality aside, there is nothing less real about Bitcoin than other fiat currency.

      Men in suits, potentially with guns, can tax your income and/or transactions and require payment of those taxes in a fiat currency. Which means that at the end of the day that fiat currency is backed by the value of human labor and/or physical assets.

      Bitcoin is backed only by demand for Bitcoin, and therefore can drop to absolute worthlessness on a whim, versus a complete collapse of governing authority.

  2. Bitcoin is no longer about being "money" by timholman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The idea of any blockchain-verified cryptocurrency being widely used as money never made sense, and never will. What, if I buy lunch for $10, I have to wait several hours or days for a bunch of server farms in China to verify my transaction while burning enough energy to light every house in my neighborhood? Either that, or pay $2 or $3 to get it "expedited" in 15 minutes?

    It's insane. The world economy is far too large and complex to be funneled through 1 MB or 2 MB or 4 MB chunks of data verified one at a time, and even the people pushing BTC realize that now. When was the last time you heard BitPay brag about how many new merchants were using their service? The idea of BTC as money has all kind of faded away. It simply won't scale, regardless of the supposed "solution" of SegWit.

    Now it's all about the speculative frenzy, and the different factions within the Bitcoin ecosystem fighting for control of the blockchain with hard forks. BTC is useful for moving large sums of currency across borders without government control (many wealthy Chinese like that), but as far as being used as "money", that ship has long sailed.

    1. Re:Bitcoin is no longer about being "money" by tlhIngan · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The idea of any blockchain-verified cryptocurrency being widely used as money never made sense, and never will. What, if I buy lunch for $10, I have to wait several hours or days for a bunch of server farms in China to verify my transaction while burning enough energy to light every house in my neighborhood? Either that, or pay $2 or $3 to get it "expedited" in 15 minutes?

      It's insane. The world economy is far too large and complex to be funneled through 1 MB or 2 MB or 4 MB chunks of data verified one at a time, and even the people pushing BTC realize that now. When was the last time you heard BitPay brag about how many new merchants were using their service? The idea of BTC as money has all kind of faded away. It simply won't scale, regardless of the supposed "solution" of SegWit.

      Now it's all about the speculative frenzy, and the different factions within the Bitcoin ecosystem fighting for control of the blockchain with hard forks. BTC is useful for moving large sums of currency across borders without government control (many wealthy Chinese like that), but as far as being used as "money", that ship has long sailed.

      The problem is why Bitcoin forked. Before the fork, the entire network can handle a whopping 7 transactions per second. That's it. As an example, Visa and Mastercard themselves handle a million or more transactions every second. And that's not peak - peak shopping times can easily reach tens of millions of transactions per second.

      Try that with Bitcoin and your confirmation time may move from days to years in a short span of time - in short, it doesn't scale. That's why they forked - because they needed a way to scale and there were two competing methods. But even then the scaling ... doesn't scale - post fork I don't think either can handle a mere 100 transactions per second.

      Before Bitcoin can become mainstream, it's going to have to solve the scalability problem first. And if you think things are bad now, imagine if you were getting paid in bitcoin - and while your company may pay you on time, the network confirmation may day takes to arrive. Considering a good chunk of the population live paycheque to paycheque, even a couple of days delay can send them over the edge. A sound investment might be in the scum known as payday loan companies whose predatory lending practices ensure you stay in debt to them forever no matter how much you pay. Because a lot more people are going to need it if Bitcoin becomes the payment of choice .

  3. Re:I don't get it by DaMattster · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Even gold only has value because people believe it does. Its only real value is as a conductor, but beyond that, it's pretty worthless. Gold is too malleable and cannot be used in building.

  4. Lack of regulation by duke_cheetah2003 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Bitcoin suffers from it's own design. It's decentralized, and unregulated. Criminals have flocked to the 'currency' for these very reasons.

    It just goes to show, regulation does have a place. I personally can't get behind something that facilitates criminality to the degree bitcoin does.

    It's very design is the problem. It can't be regulated. Oversight is impossible. In the age of scams, fraud and identity theft, we simply cannot have a deregulated decentralized, pseudo-anonymous 'currency.' It just causes way too many problems and ultimately doesn't solve any problems legitimate government issued currency has.

  5. FOMO Hate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There's a lot of bitcoin hate on Slashdot from people who are mad they don't own any bitcoin, and didn't get in when it was affordable.

    1. Re:FOMO Hate by sysrammer · · Score: 1, Insightful

      There's a lot of bitcoin hate on Slashdot from people who are mad they don't own any bitcoin, and didn't get in when it was affordable.

      Yeah. Pretty much like all pyramid schemes.

      --
      His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
  6. Re:This is why they forked by James+Carnley · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't think transaction speeds are a technological problem. Bitcoin can do nothing to make transactions happen quickly at scale with any technological model with the way cryptocurrency is currently set up. It's a political problem that currently has no solution and worst yet as far as I know nobody has even come up with a pie in the sky solution that might work either.

    Visa has to process millions of transactions every second. Visa spends a TON of money on data centers and ways to process all of that load. There is currently no good incentive for miners to create the massive infrastructure needed to make a real time transaction system work in the real world. It's either wait more than 5 minutes (unacceptable) or charge multi dollar fees on top of the price of what's being bought (also unacceptable). The only way Bitcoin will be viable is to work fast and cheap. It's neither.

  7. Inflationary bubble by Neo-Rio-101 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The strength of Bitcoin comes from the health of the computers maintaining the Bitcoin network, and those computers are only on the network is because they're getting paid in bitcoin to maintain it.

    Once it becomes hard to impossible to mine bitcoin, to the point where it is not financially feasible to do so, Bitcoin's network will weaken and fold as miners move onto the next crypto-currency with a better ROI.

    This will have the net effect of weakening the number of systems maintaining bitcoin - and potentially weakening the strength of the bitcoin network. This *might* possibly cause bitcoin's price to suddenly drop as people pull out.

    It's either that or bitcoin has to continue to inflate for eternity I guess.

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