IRS Now Has a Tool To Unmask Bitcoin Tax Evaders (thedailybeast.com)

SonicSpike shares a report from The Daily Beast: You can use bitcoin. But you can't hide from the taxman. At least, that's the hope of the Internal Revenue Service, which has purchased specialist software to track those using bitcoin, according to a contract obtained by The Daily Beast. The document highlights how law enforcement isn't only concerned with criminals accumulating bitcoin from selling drugs or hacking targets, but also those who use the currency to hide wealth or avoid paying taxes. The IRS has claimed that only 802 people declared bitcoin losses or profits in 2015; clearly fewer than the actual number of people trading the cryptocurrency -- especially as more investors dip into the world of cryptocurrencies, and the value of bitcoin punches past the $4,000 mark. Maybe lots of bitcoin traders didn't realize the government expects to collect tax on their digital earnings, or perhaps some thought they'd be able to get away with stockpiling bitcoin thanks to the perception that the cryptocurrency is largely anonymous.

"The purpose of this acquisition is to help us trace the movement of money through the bitcoin economy," a section of the contract reads. The Daily Beast obtained the document through the Freedom of Information Act. The contractor in this case is Chainalysis, a startup offering its "Reactor" tool to visualize, track, and analyze bitcoin transactions. Chainalysis' users include law enforcement agencies, banks, and regulatory entities. The software can follow bitcoin as it moves from one wallet to another, and eventually to an exchange where the bitcoin user will likely cash out into dollars or another currency. This is the point law enforcement could issue a subpoena to the exchange and figure out who is really behind the bitcoin.

Comments

Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

How dare the little people!??? Only corporations who purchased the proper politician get to evade their personal responsibility.

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

I never signed one. Where's my refund?

Re:Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck the IRS.

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you were born a US citizen and have not relinquished that citizenship, you have by default signed the contract. I'm not sure what you would be refunded anyway; sounds like you are of the opinion you shouldn't have to pay anything in. Put your money where your mouth is, sociopath.

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

It was a joke, son. Pull that stick out of your ass.

Re:Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

How dare the little people!??? Only corporations who purchased the proper accountant can protect the interests of their shareholders and stakeholders.

FTFY.

Rules are the same for everybody. Don't like it? Feel free to pay the government more than you have to. There's even a line on the 1040 for it.

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

i trust you forego your standard deduction since you have no clue what tax evasion actually is?

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a smug jackass who has to sign every post of mine despite being logged in where anyone can clearly see who made the post. My posts are mostly inane and deserve to be moderated to -1. I'm pretty much a useless poster on Slashdot.

-jcr

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm so glad you signed your inane post with "-jcr" because otherwise nobody would have known who made it. Despite that you're logged in as jcr, obviously nobody would see that and the signature at the end of your post is the only way they'll know who made the post. Idiot.

Re:Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Taxation is the price of having civilization.

Lets look at the US and the health care system. Right now, the US pays twice what any other country pays for its healthcare, with most of that going into private pockets. If we had a single payer system, we would be around Norway's level.

Keep thinking that you want no government... then sit and wonder why people, with nothing to lose, start burning things down, and why the place is a police state, because the government has to go to extremes to keep order... and spend a lot more money than it would have cost to have a basic safety net, even a guaranteed income.

I have yet to see a libertarian who has passed a macroeconomics or microeconomics class. Mainly because that philosophy just doesn't hold water in the real world, with real world threats and globalization. Should the US get rid of its army, China would be invading from the west, and likely Russia or Middle Eastern nations will be claiming eastern territories.

Re:Evading taxes?

[John Napkintosh]

You most certainly enjoy many benefits of taxation; you just don't want to pony up your contribution. Enjoying benefits without contribution is theft.

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

shut the fuck up troll.

-jcr

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

please mod this up.

-jcr

Re: Evading taxes?

[Opportunist]

You may be joking, but there's plenty of assholes who think that they don't owe jack shit... but then turn around and use public roads, public services and enjoy living in a free country the freedom of which is paid for by tax money.

Re: Evading taxes?

[Opportunist]

So you pay to use my roads? You pay to be protected from me robbing your home while you're sleeping because, well, it may be illegal, but I doubt you'd expect a public court to work for you, at least without paying for it, right?

Re:Evading taxes?

[Opportunist]

On a completely unrelated note, of course, how do you jail corporations?

Re:Evading taxes?

[Opportunist]

I hope you filled out the relevant form to engage in this kind of exchange of information with the IRS.

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

So for those who effectively pay no federal taxes and may receive credit, such as the very poor, by your words they are stealing federal services??? Some clarification might be required.

Re:Evading taxes?

[mlw4428]

Theft is a crime. The US Constitution specifically calls out the government's ability to tax. For all of your patriotism spouting, you don't seem like you've read the Constitution. And no, the Constitution places absolutely ZERO limits on the amount it may or may not tax you. It merely stipulates that what it taxes you must be used for debts, defence, and the General Welfare of the people.

So no, it is not patriotic to avoid paying your taxes. It is laziness and against our very Constitution. Pay your debt to society or give up your citizenship and leave. Find yourself a nice 3rd world shithole Libertarian nation and live there. Freeloader.

Re: Evading taxes?

[guruevi]

The majority of "poor" people do indeed commit the moral equivalent of theft. They all have enough income to drive around in an Escalade, smoke weed and cigarettes, buy plenty of junk food, cell phones even I can't afford, they all have $200/mo cable packages.

There are very few truly poor people in the US and those people (homeless, veterans with PTSD) hardly get any help from the government.

Re:Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Normally I'd argue that there's a wide chasm between what we have now and having no government, and the person you are replying to might want something in between, but "Fuck you. Taxation is theft." does pretty clearly say that they want no government. I mean, you don't say that if you are ok with a little taxation, you only say that if you want no taxation. Since governments can't operate without money, that also means you want no government.

Although.. I guess the government could just "print" (either by actual printing or by simply altering a value in a database) more money any time they needed some. Maybe that is what jcr wants, no taxation and endless inflation.

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you were born a US citizen and have not relinquished that citizenship, you have by default signed the contract. I'm not sure what you would be refunded anyway; sounds like you are of the opinion you shouldn't have to pay anything in. Put your money where your mouth is, sociopath.

And you must be of the opinion that US Corporations are somehow exempt from the responsibility of paying anything in. If you're looking for the sociopath, grab a fucking mirror buddy.

Re:Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

wow if you're losing half your paycheck to taxes, you're one of the dumbest 'murkins in existence. you deserve it.

Re:Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right jcr. The USA ran just fine before it had income taxes.

Rackets are everywhere, especially sickcare.

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that part of the problem with your reasoning is that, without violence, private property is poorly defined.

What stops someone to claim that you live in your property for example. Or that he owns the resources under your land (water, minerals, you name it).

The problem of ownership of a resource seems (to me) too difficult to solve without violence. There are way to many places when two (or more) groups of people think that they have the right to some land.

A central authority, that represent in some way (well, this is also very vague) the habitants of the place seems the least problematic form of administering the violence.

Re:Evading taxes?

[Archangel Michael]

Taxation is the price of having civilization.

False. Because if that were the case, then more taxes = more civilization, which it doesn't.

The alternative is, Taxation is a necessary evil, and as such should be reduced or eliminated wherever possible, and should be voluntary (optional) not compelled under threat of government guns.

And, while we're talking taxes, how much is enough?

As for Macro/micro economics, I've passed both, and have a degree in Finance. Libertarian principles are about liberty, and taxes are about enslavement. For the record, I am not against taxes, as they are a necessary evil. I am opposed to confiscatory taxes to support government largess. The military (National Cause) can be well supported with minimal taxation rate. Most of the government isn't military, it is social programs and forced redistribution of wealth, which NEVER ends well, as more and more people are included in the dole, and less and less people actually pay for it.

Taxes, all of them, are regressive. Period. The rich can avoid them, the poor do not pay them, the middle class is stuck paying for them. Why do you see the disappearance of the middle class? Look no further than myopic socialist view of taxes being the center point of civilization.

Re:Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Patriotism isn't defined by the Constitution. The Constitution defines the government. When looking to determine if someone is being patriotic you should instead look up to what led up to our independence and the formation of our current government. Otherwise, by your constitution definition, none of our "founding fathers" would be patriots.

Re:Evading taxes?

[mi]

You most certainly enjoy many benefits of taxation; you just don't want to pony up your contribution.

This is a completely bogus and logically-flawed argument.

If the money is already confiscated from me against my will, I may as well partake of whatever they are spent on. This does not make my opposition to the confiscation in any way invalid or immoral.

But I do find it curious, how people openly arguing against the citizens' privacy can get as highly-moderated on Slashdot as the pro-taxers... FBI searching for a dead terrorist's accomplices? Booo, down with government overreach!! IRS on a fishing expedition through bitcoin transactions? Yeah, give us more!

Re:Evading taxes?

[BarbaraHudson]

I don't get dick for the half of my paycheck that is stolen by government.

You want dick? Congratulations for coming out of the closet. But supplying dick is not part of the government's mandate. Obtaining it is left to your own initiative. You can start by posting a f*ck-ton of posts about why you love Apple, link to the Village People video in your sig, and take those assless leather cowboy chaps out of storage.

Re: Evading taxes?

[BarbaraHudson]

The government just takes more and more of your money, but they don't go after the large corporations who have their money stashed away overseas. They just want more and more of your hard earned money. It's so Jewish.

You mis-spelled "It's so Trump/Republican."

Re:Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

False. Because if that were the case, then more taxes = more civilization, which it doesn't.

Actually, to a large extent it does. Larger countries have larger governments and bring in larger tax sums. More social benefits typically correlates with more taxes.

Re: Evading taxes?

[golgotha007]

My car registration is my taxes paid for using public roads.
My taxes paid on my income pays for public services (and killing innocent women and children in foreign countries via drone strikes).
I enjoy living in a free country thanks to the actions of me and my military brothers that have fought in wars protecting this country.

The government should be allowed to shake me down because I made some risky, but good financial decisions. Keep in mind that I take all the risk.

Re: Evading taxes?

[golgotha007]

>>The government should be allowed to shake me down because I made some risky, but good financial decisions. Keep in mind that I take all the risk.

Make that, shouldn't be allowed to shake me down.

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

You may be joking, but there's plenty of assholes who think that they don't owe jack shit... but then turn around and use public roads, public services and enjoy living in a free country the freedom of which is paid for by tax money.

We had this in San Antonio with neighborhoods fighting not to be annexed. They work in the city, use city streets, city parks, and complain about the thought of paying city taxes.

Re:Evading taxes?

[PopeRatzo]

Only corporations who purchased the proper politician get to evade their personal responsibility.

But evading taxes is "smart". Just ask the president.

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

The majority of "poor" people do indeed commit the moral equivalent of theft. They all have enough income to drive around in an Escalade, smoke weed and cigarettes, buy plenty of junk food, cell phones even I can't afford, they all have $200/mo cable packages.

All of them? You've been consuming too much talk radio. Go to any poor area and look at the cars. Hell, you can use Google street view if you are too much a coward. It will take you a fucking long time to find an Escalade, but you won't do this, because this fiction allows to you feel self righteous.

Unless, this was a joke to mock brainwashed conservatives. If so, you got me.

Re:Evading taxes?

[physicsphairy]

Enjoying benefits without contribution is theft.

In which slashdot pivots to supporting perpetual copyright just to stick it to the anti-government right.

Re:Evading taxes?

[HeckRuler]

Ah, jcr, you crazy sonnovabitch. Let's calibrate that crazy-o-meter and see how you're doing.

Alright, so lay it on me. What's the alternative?

Describe your libertarian utopia. How do roads work? Defending against a bigger thug simply taking all our stuff? What do you do when the wheels fall off the new car you purchased and killed half your family?

So taxation is theft. Fine. Whatever floats your goat. So what do we do from there?

Re:Evading taxes?

[F.Ultra]

Hope he doesn't forget to put on the dark blue hanky as well!

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

"They all have enough income to drive around in an Escalade,"

Please fuck off so the adults can have a discussion.

Re:Evading taxes?

[rleibman]

As a Libertarian I'm a bit of an opponent of this "Taxation is Theft" meme... because technically it should really be "Taxation is Extortion" :)

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

My car registration is my taxes paid for using public roads. My taxes paid on my income pays for public services (and killing innocent women and children in foreign countries via drone strikes). I enjoy living in a free country thanks to the actions of me and my military brothers that have fought in wars protecting this country.

The government should be allowed to shake me down because I made some risky, but good financial decisions. Keep in mind that I take all the risk.

Then your good financial decisions earn you "income"; thus, you have to pay taxes on that too, right?

Re:Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

A small experiment. The next time you get your pay stub, write a check for federal tax, another for FICA, and one more check for state taxes. Actually write it out. Did you get full value for the previous pay period?

Re:Evading taxes?

[edtice1559]

This should get modded down to -1. If you didn't have police protection, somebody would come take 100% of your paycheck. In fact even at 99% tax rate, you're better off than you would be without the police. So 50% is a bargain in that respect. And if you are really paying 50% in taxes, you have pretty good income. Taxes in this country are progressive, so poorer people pay a lower percentage.

Re:Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

False. Because if that were the case, then more taxes = more civilization, which it doesn't.

Faulty argument. The relationship between taxes and quality of civilization is not necessarily a linear, positively-correlative relationship. Your analogy would be similar to the following:

Drinking water is good for one's health. If that is true, the more water = more good health.

The above cannot be taken to an extreme because drinking too much water will kill a person.

The alternative is, Taxation is a necessary evil, and as such should be reduced or eliminated wherever possible, and should be voluntary (optional) not compelled under threat of government guns.

If taxes are not compelled, you will have free loaders. Businesses benefit from an educated population, road systems, a postal service, rule of law, etc. I'm fairly sure that if it were easy to do, no business would pay any taxes. Where would they be able to find a workforce capable of keeping the business running? How would the businesses be able to deliver its goods? What is to keep the businesses from being swindled through deception or force?

The same applies to the public citizen. The system of roads, rule of law, creation of large infrastructure projects that are too expensive for small numbers of individuals and too financially risky for even large numbers of individuals with substantial capital.

To be a modern day first world nation, some amount of taxation is necessary and it must be compulsory.

As for Macro/micro economics, I've passed both, and have a degree in Finance.

You really ought not say that. Neoliberal economic policies and financialization of the economy have done tremendous harm to the U.S. and its middle class. What you claim expertise in is junk knowledge that is more likely to destroy an economy than help it. Most economists don't seem to be aware that there are two economies: the production-consumption economy and the FIRE economy. Being that you're in the FIRE sector, I strongly suspect you don't understand economics and finance as well as your credentials would suggest.

I am opposed to confiscatory taxes to support government largess. The military (National Cause) can be well supported with minimal taxation rate. Most of the government isn't military, it is social programs and forced redistribution of wealth, which NEVER ends well, as more and more people are included in the dole, and less and less people actually pay for it.

Agree with you on higher taxes to support bread and circuses and the state of permanent welfare for some people. However, regarding confiscatory taxes, I have come to the conclusion that they are necessary in at least one instance: the inheritance tax. To prevent the creation of dynasties of wealth that are extremely damaging to the country, I believe the U.S. should have a confiscatory tax rate for inheritances of over, say, $10M or $20M indexed against the CPI.

Without the inheritance tax, you get political dynasties like the Kennedys, the Bushes, and perhaps the Clintons.

Taxes, all of them, are regressive. Period. The rich can avoid them, the poor do not pay them, the middle class is stuck paying for them.

Norway, Sweden, and Denmark disprove your assertion. Taxes are not necessarily regressive. They are only regressive to the extent that government is incompetent and corrupt.

Why do you see the disappearance of the middle class? Look no further than myopic socialist view of taxes being the center point of civilization.

The tax system in the U.S.A. does not help the middle class but it is not the reason for the evisceration of the middle class in the U.S. I agree with you that, all too often, taxes are used to fund bread and circuses to enable public officials to stay in power. This is most certainly true in the U.S.

But tax policy in the U.S. is not why the middle class has been hollowed out. You might want to start looking at the effects of unrestrained (laissez faire) capitalism or crony capitalism. Then look into the effects of incompetent or corrupt monetary policy.

Re:Evading taxes?

[Gravis Zero]

Fuck you. Taxation is theft.

And if you didn't pay the taxes, anyone would be free to murder you and take your money without cause. Laws are just words with nothing to enforce them.

Re:Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Half?

Perhaps your free education wasn't as good as we think it was if your basic math is that bad. Not one person in the USA loses half of their paycheck to taxation.

Re:Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

you think you're Trump but you're not.

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

You may be joking, but there's plenty of assholes who think that they don't owe jack shit... but then turn around and use public roads, public services and enjoy living in a free country the freedom of which is paid for by tax money.

I agree. There are many who are subsidized who think they are entitled and think that they don't owe jack shit.

On the other hand, anyone who understands and advocates for freedom knows a government is necessary to ensure that freedom. They also realize, like everyone else, people running the government don't work for free. Therefore, taxes are necessary to fund government. That said, government should be limited to only functions necessary to ensure freedom. It would be much smaller than it is today.

Just because liberals are unwilling or unable to understand this distinction doesn't mean conservatives are for no taxes and no government. It's just yet another tired, old strawman liberals drag out when they have trouble defending their bloated, tyrannical, incompetent government. Yawn . . .

Re:Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you see the disappearance of the middle class?

Why else? That couldn't possibly have something to do with the corporate friendly anti-worker trade policies of the US government/corporate combination, with enforced globalization where corporations "trade" with their own overseas subsidiaries to avoid paying taxes, with making sure tax policy benefits only the rich, with employers doing everything they can to avoid hiring full time employees, and frankly with the popular corporate media enforced denigration of work and people who work for a living...no, it's all taxation, right? People wonder why nobody takes modern libertarians seriously.

Re:Evading taxes?

[Archangel Michael]

The relationship between taxes and quality of civilization is not necessarily a linear, positively-correlative relationship.

That wasn't my linear thought, that was the GP linear thought. S/He didn't properly apply bounds and did no sanity checks on their argument. I applied the logic of "taxes = civilization" to its logical conclusion based on no assumptions on my part ;)

We have water, most of it drinkable, available. Very close to ... 100% . Drinking fountains are convenience. Taxes are not a convenience, nor should taxes be nearly 100% . Wrong analogy. Nice try though.

To be a modern day first world nation, some amount of taxation is necessary and it must be compulsory.

Compulsion is slavery. There is a constitutional amendment against compulsory indentured servitude. And the fact that we haven't ever applied my view of taxation on a society, you can't actually say it won't work. My idea of taxes would mirror Cigarette Taxes. High tax rate, completely avoidable by everyone; voluntary. Lets legalize all sorts of things, tax the crap out of them, we gain two things by doing so, free people are free to do whatever, and the societal costs of those things are paid for by taxes, and we reduce prisons to actual criminals (Murder, theft, rape etc).

Norway, Sweden, and Denmark disprove your assertion. Taxes are not necessarily regressive. They are only regressive to the extent that government is incompetent and corrupt.

"This heavily progressive tax rate stunted economic growth, and Sweden fell from the fourth-wealthiest country in the world to the fourteenth-wealthiest country in just 23 years." http://thefederalist.com/2015/...

crony capitalism.

Fully agree there. But that isn't free enterprise, more fascist (true Italian kind) than anything. And for the biggest example you can look no further than ObamaCare, which is pure Fascist Healthcare, wrapped up in Crony Capitalism.

Re: Evading taxes?

[KGIII]

No. Tax evasion is illegal. Tax avoidance is legal and smart.

Re:Evading taxes?

[Archangel Michael]

My question is, why is the US government involved in business at all, pro / anti , corporate/worker ?

Because someone somewhere said ... "There ought to be a law" and it was so. The next guy comes along, and does the same thing, and the next, and the next.

Meanwhile, nobody is stopping to ask "WHY should there be THAT law?" We're not problem solving any longer, we're legislating everything to our own peril.

Here is my greatest example: Net Neutrality.

On the surface, it sounds FANTASTIC! But why do we have the problem that we're trying to solve (it won't solve the problem) with legislation, when the actual root lies elsewhere. In Franchise Agreements that limit choice in last mile carriers. If the consumer had REAL choice, there would be no need for Net Neutrality laws, because the problem would be solved with competition. But it is easier to legislate the solution (which won't solve the problem, create additional headaches in the process) than it is to UNDO the government interference that caused the problem(Franchise Cable Agreements) in the first place.

The real solution isn't less choice and more restrictions, with End Users not really having a say in the matter, all in the name of fairness (it isn't fair at all) and dictates by governments on how businesses should operate. (see classical definition of Fascism for reference).

with employers doing everything they can to avoid hiring full time employees

And you blame businesses, rather than the government that created the rules the businesses are trying to navigate. And you wonder why it doesn't work? I can tell you that rose tinted view of the world doesn't make the world rose colored. I'm pretty damn sure that employers would LOVE to hire full time workers, but can save a shit ton of money (and stay in business) by avoiding the rule and regulations put in place that cost money. The option is, hire full time workers, become more expensive and go out of business, or cut hours and stay in business. Until you have a payroll, and responsibility to pay people a wage, you have no idea what it actually takes and the government rules put in place because ... "there ought to be a law" and it was so.

People don't take Libertarians seriously, because straw-man arguments like you made ;)

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't bother trying to explain it. The financial education in this country is crap. People actually believe that there are corporations out there in the US that pay $0 per year in taxes. While it may be true that some pay little to nothing in INCOME TAXES, there isn't a single case of a corporation paying out $0 in taxes over a single reporting period. People of the world: Grow the fuck up. There are no "deductions" or "loop holes" that will exempt a corporation from payroll taxes(which includes Medicare), sales tax, millage, etc, etc. The guy above doesn't even know that roads are paid for with taxes collected on gasoline, called excise taxes. Buy a fucking book.

Re:Evading taxes?

[BozoForPresident]

If you want privacy, use https://z.cash/ - which gives users the option of encrypting their transactions on the blockchain so that the amount, sending and receiving addresses are only known to the sender and receiver - yet zero knowledge proofs ensure that no value can be arbitrarily created or destroyed.

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the risks don't pan out, you can claim your losses on your tax returns.

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

He's probably right if all of the taxes are added up from federal to state with property and sales and the various other ticky tack registration fees that we all end up paying.

Re:Evading taxes?

[stephenmac7]

That was added later as the Sixteenth Amendment. Furthermore, the Constitution is not perfect as we all well know. If it were, blacks would still be 3/5 of a person.

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

So... no tax on winnings from gambling, then?

Re:Evading taxes?

[Agripa]

And if you didn't pay the taxes, anyone would be free to murder you and take your money without cause. Laws are just words with nothing to enforce them.

Do you mean like the current situation with civil assets forfeiture and police getting away with murder?

Re: Evading taxes?

[Opportunist]

Then it's great that you have a conservative government, that should take care of that pretty soon, right?

Re:Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

People don't take Libertarians seriously, because straw-man arguments like you made ;)

...so you're suggesting (most) people are just too stupid to tell a strawman argument from a logically sound one? I mean, if what the GP made were straw-man arguments, and people don't take Libertarians seriously because of those straw-man arguments, the implication is that people are stupid and fall for straw-man arguments.

If people are that stupid, then it's more reason libertarianism won't work. Even if you somehow create a libertarian society, the stupid will always be duped to support recreating a big, liberty-destroying government again.

Libertarianism is doomed to fail as it makes the same mistake as communism: it only works if people are more perfect than they actually are.

Re:Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

AVOIDING taxes (which Trump did) is LEGAL and SMART.
EVADING taxes (which Trump never did) is ILLEGAL and DUMB.

Re:Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Our economy would completely crash if the US switched quickly to a single payer system. Health care in the #1 employer in the U.S. and insurance is #8. Roughly 7 million good paying jobs (9% of all jobs) would be lost under a single-payer system (guessing 1/3 of both healthcare and insurance). There is no doubt the US has a broken system, but we are economically dependent on this system at this time. One way to move away from a system like this would be to crowd fund the purchase of a company like United Health Care (just $184 billion dollars) and turn them into a non-profit. Then monopolize the system over a decade or more under this non-profit. Then over two decades improve the efficiency. This is not something that can be done quickly without throwing the country into a depression.

Re: Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

No,you do NOT take all the risk.
Every other person employed by those you speculate out of existance ALSO took the risk of dedicated his / her skill set to your need.

Re: Evading taxes?

[0111 1110]

and enjoy living in a free country the freedom of which is paid for by tax money.

The US is not a free country. It is just good at brainwashing its minions to think so. Pay your taxes and it enjoy it, slave-man. You are only free do what your government allows you to do and there is a lot it doesn't allow you to do, but it's ok because you are happy to be a slave as long as that is not what you think you are. And no it is not more free than other countries either. Go live in some of those other countries and you will see what I mean. BTW your taxes pay for a lot more than just basic government services like roads. Some of those 'services' not everyone wants. That's what I object to. Why should people have to pay for services they don't want? Usually it's just one group of people stealing from another group of people anyway. Whatever. Life isn't perfect. Most people are assholes and we have to try to live together. Just don't pretend you are free. You aren't.

Re: Evading taxes?

[Opportunist]

Now I'm curious, care to define "free"?

Re:Evading taxes?

[0111 1110]

I have yet to see a libertarian who has passed a macroeconomics or microeconomics class.

Well let me be the first then. I had some fundamental disagreements with the macroeconomics professor though and due to those disagreements certainly did not get an A but I did pass the course. You are correct in thinking that most Libertarians are not Keynesians though and most macroeconomic courses are based on Keynesian ideas. So it is difficult if you think those ideas are just silly and stupid and certainly unproven. Microeconomics though is only slightly controversial for a Libertarian. I found there were too many unproven assumptions which they forgot to drop before making their conclusions.

Should the US get rid of its army, China would be invading from the west, and likely Russia or Middle Eastern nations will be claiming eastern territories

Oh bullshit. You don't know that. And anyway most Libertarians are limited government libertarians and not anarcho-libertarians. So a libertarian society could still have an army. As well as police and courts and maybe even public roads, at least secondary ones. Obviously we have shown that highways can easily be paid for privately with e-tolls. That used to be just a Libertarian dream but now it is a proven reality. I wonder what other Libertarian privatization dreams could be realized with the help of new tech. Anyway the real world is indeed about compromises. It's about optimization and constraints. And the fact that most people are fucking assholes who barely deserve to live at all does make any utopian society highly questionable.

Human beings are very very bad and maybe should be exterminated, but I think some form of Libertarianism is still ideal no matter how evil and terrible and stupid most of our species is. It's based on a very simple idea that as far as I am concerned is hard to disagree with: Voluntarism. Coercion is bad. And the idea of non-coercion is based on the idea of equality. That no human being has any more rights than another and has no right to dominate or enslave another no matter how important they think their reasons are. It all derives from that and the implementation details are actually not that important to me. Some compromises have to be made but they can be minimized. The important thing is that evil mobs (and mobs are almost always evil) should not be allowed to dominate minorities and individuals. Again people are evil and selfish and will definitely hurt or kill or enslave to get what they want. Sometimes they organize enough to become a government and legalize this domination of individuals for their own selfish ends. Slavery is slavery whatever the justification. I don't see how anyone can think that is ok, but whatever.

We are humans. So we will never agree with each other and never get along peacefully. I think you are wrong. You think I am wrong. Ideally you would have your ideal society to live in and I would have my ideal society to live in and our societies could trade with each other peacefully. That would certainly be nice. Everyone should be able to live in a society they prefer. You'd prefer something more like what the US has now. I'd prefer something more like the US in the 18th century.

I've sometimes wondered if a Libertarian society could be started somewhere in Antarctica. Like a commune but with heavy weaponry to defend its territory from nations that may object. Yes an army is *definitely* necessary. That is one of the first things any society needs. I think this is a much better option than the Free State Project. There probably are enough Libertarians to start and to even defend a small Antarctic Libertarian community. Probably Marie Byrd Land would be a good location to start with because it is the only area with no territorial claims, but Queen Maud Land is another option since I'm not sure how hard Norwegians would fight to defend their territory down there. Norwegians seem less warlike than the other territory claim holders down there and are less likely to just bomb the small town out of existence like the US or UK might do.

Re: Evading taxes?

[0111 1110]

Not being coerced or told what to do by your government. Not being a slave. Being left alone unless you are actually harming other people. Obviously freedom doesn't mean freedom to murder people. It means freedom to be left alone to do what you want as long as you don't cause others harm. The US clearly does not qualify. At least not anymore. In the 18th century it did more or less qualify as free at least by my definition as long as you weren't an African slave.

Re: Evading taxes?

[Opportunist]

That also means that you will have a hard time defending against countries that don't see it this way. Because you will not have an army.

Re:Evading taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, in the current situation, only the police can do that, so not the same. Not that the current situation doesn't need fixing.

Re: Evading taxes?

[KingBenny]

How about the years you turn over a loss and not a profit, do they give you money cos you're negative instead of you paying them cos you're positive then. After all sed lex, fair is fair, dura lex, sounds like vulcan logic to me

Re: Evading taxes?

[Opportunist]

Over here we call that social services, where you get money from the state if you're broke and can't support yourself. Dunno if that exists in the US.

and now the IRS scammers will ask for bitcoins

[Joe_Dragon]

and now the IRS scammers will ask for bitcoins

fewer than the number of people...

[Anonymous Coward]

Certainly not all people trading in bitcoin are based in the USA and owe taxes to the IRS!

Re:fewer than the number of people...

[EvilSS]

Certainly not all people trading in bitcoin are based in the USA and owe taxes to the IRS!

Well maybe the IRS will be nice and share their data with tax authorities from other countries. Everyone wins!

Re:fewer than the number of people...

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone on this planet owes the IRS taxes unless they can prove otherwise.

bitcoin carries a permanent log

[Anonymous Coward]

Bitcoin has a permanent log of all transactions going back to the very beginning. The log never goes away.

As soon as a single trasnaction become tied to a real person then every transaction ever made by the person is exposed.

Bitcoin is not anonymous. Never was never will be. Using for that purpose = fool. There are other cryptocurrencies designed for anonymous, bu tthey are not as popular so also not as useful.

Re:bitcoin carries a permanent log

[MrLogic17]

^ This.

The distributed ledger is the opposite of anonymous- everyone has a full copy of all transactions. To use a bank analogy, you have a land of numbered Swiss bank accounts, and the transactions are published in a daily newspaper. Cracking who owns what is simply an exercise in meta data analysis.

Re: bitcoin carries a permanent log

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes and no - Bitcoin can be cashed out via cash in the mail services on the dark web

Re:bitcoin carries a permanent log

[BlueStrat]

Bitcoin has a permanent log of all transactions going back to the very beginning. The log never goes away.

As soon as a single trasnaction become tied to a real person then every transaction ever made by the person is exposed.

Bitcoin is not anonymous. Never was never will be. Using for that purpose = fool. There are other cryptocurrencies designed for anonymous, bu tthey are not as popular so also not as useful.

Came here to say precisely this.

BC could be a possible hedge against runaway inflation among normal fiat currencies, but it was never intended nor designed for anonymity.

Strat

Re:bitcoin carries a permanent log

[shaitand]

Yes and no, they then know who had that particular wallet true, they don't know who owned the last wallet up the chain or after which may or may not have been the same person. Of course the IRS has a habit of putting the burden of proving everything on the individual years after the fact when that individual had no reasonable expectation they'd have to account for something... even when they have explicitly not had to account for something decades prior.

A dirty little secret of forensic accounting is that it makes assumptions regarding similar sized transactions and what looks likely numerically, by definition the conclusions sound good but are not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Re:bitcoin carries a permanent log

[Anonymous Coward]

That entirely depends on your definition of "reasonable". The typical legal bar for this type of proof is much lower than you seem to be implying.

Re:bitcoin carries a permanent log

[Anonymous Coward]

Bitcoin has a permanent log of all transactions going back to the very beginning. The log never goes away.

As soon as a single trasnaction become tied to a real person then every transaction ever made by the person is exposed.

Bitcoin is not anonymous.

That's a complete misunderstanding of how bitcoin works on so many levels it's hard to know where to start.

I'll start by assuming you didn't actually mean "ever(y) transaction ever made by the person", even though that's a direct quote. If I have two different bitcoin addresses. Attaching my name to address A tells you exactly nothing about address B, unless they are linked by some OTHER means.

Okay, so assuming what you meant was that attaching a name to a given address, A, then this ties every single transaction in the transaction tree wherein address A is contained (beginning with either mining or known exchange).

Even this limited interpretation of your claim is fundamentally flawed. If you imagine the tree above as a bunch of nodes, tying my name to a given node tells you only that I somehow got exactly the bitcoins in that node. ANYTHING else is speculation and would require more information to prove. Now, law enforcement has access to a lot of extra information and, depending on how careless I've been, they might be able to substantiate that I have (had) access to some amount of bitcoins, which may or may not be completely accurate and may or may not be the entirety of my holdings.

What you CAN tell from putting a name to a single address is to go back and see where the bitcoins came from. But bitcoins are like water. You can follow the flow, but you cannot distinguish my cup from the other water it comes into contact with. Trying to follow MY cup of water as it mixes with others (e.g. taint analysis) isn't exactly trivial and will usually require more information that even the authorities don't have access to. And if I pour my cup of water into a known mixing lake, you might assume I control one or more of the "cups" of water taken out of the lake, but you have no idea which one(s).

On the other hand, if I'm a drug dealer using a single address for all my customers and then transferred that directly to a known exchange and cashed out, then the authorities would certainly be able to "track" my transactions.

In other words, what this software does is catch the stupid criminals.

Re:bitcoin carries a permanent log

[Anonymous Coward]

So you'll be the first in line at IRS office to pay your taxes on your bitcoinery, RIGHT?

Re:bitcoin carries a permanent log

[shaitand]

Sadly true. Compelling enough that my gut says its true definitely doesn't meet my definition of reasonable. You can find numerical "evidence" of just about anything with a confirmation bias.

Numbers are full of coincidental patterns and people get confused about statistics. The probability of any given pattern being present is independent of any other patterns found not grouped. Just as each spin of a perfect roulette wheel has the same odds of landing on a given number, even if it just landed on the same number six times in a row, the odds of it hitting that number again are exactly the same as any other roulette wheel on the next spin.

These problems have creeped into our legal system in many places. For instance the same flawed logic is used in DEA busts where common place chemicals and tools are combined with the incorrect idea that having a number of them gives a very high probability of being guilty and in some cases even constitutes a burden of proof. The reality is that your probability of having each item has no impact on the probability you would have the others, it only logically follows that someone who is guilty is likely to have those chemicals and tools it does not follow that someone who has those chemicals and tools is likely guilty. People have trouble understanding that distinction and it is unreasonable to expect a judges and jury members to consistently do so.

Re:bitcoin carries a permanent log

[hey!]

Not to mention that if you want to participate in a contraband market, you need to establish reputation; and if the contraband is anything other than information (like lists of stolen credit cards), you have to transfer physical goods too. This means once the authorities have unmasked one party in a web of transactions, they can start unraveling the thread.

While it would be foolish to rely on cryptocurrency as being anonymous, it's not necessarily foolish to try to exploit its pseudonymous nature, if you understand the limitations. You have to protect your real (or at least official) identity using money-laundering techniques. Those aren't perfect either, but there's no such thing as perfect security in this world.

Re:bitcoin carries a permanent log

[HeckRuler]

What you CAN tell from putting a name to a single address is to go back and see where the bitcoins came from. But bitcoins are like water. You can follow the flow, but you cannot distinguish my cup from the other water it comes into contact with. Trying to follow MY cup of water as it mixes with others (e.g. taint analysis) isn't exactly trivial and will usually require more information that even the authorities don't have access to. And if I pour my cup of water into a known mixing lake, you might assume I control one or more of the "cups" of water taken out of the lake, but you have no idea which one(s).

Holy SHIT is that a good explanation for something I knew about but couldn't wrap my head around. I had the exact same sort of conception about the blockchain that the coward did and wondered just how it was ever used in criminal enterprise. I knew "they went into an anonymizer" but didn't understand how that lost track of who was who.

Still, there's list out there of everyone who has ever accepted stolen bitcoins. If I could go to the FBI or whatever cyberpolice and report that $2 mill of bitcoins were stolen, there's public knowledge of the address of the person who stole them. If that address every trade them, THAT transaction is also public knowledge.

Could US law regulate us-based services and tell them to not accept transactions using coins that are on a known and government controlled "STOLEN BITCOIN" black-list? Those big mixing lakes could have a mandatory check, and it'd be pretty trivial and quick compared to actually crunching the blockchain. Going one further, any transactions with a history of transactions to a non-regulated source or mixing pool could be grounds for investigation. You know if we wanted to go full authoritarian.

Re:bitcoin carries a permanent log

[Anonymous Coward]

nah ONLY for that exposed sending or receiving address.. and those can be generated new in a flash..

        I dont think you really understand tor + bitcoin and running a full node...

Re:bitcoin carries a permanent log

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it anonymous if I never buy legacy money on an exchange with me bitcoin?

Re:bitcoin carries a permanent log

[swillden]

The distributed ledger is the opposite of anonymous- everyone has a full copy of all transactions.

No, the use of a single ledger (distributed or not), is orthogonal to anonymity. It is totally possible to design a single distributed ledger, blockchain-based cryptocurrency which has anonymity guarantees. Bitcoin is simply not such a design; anonymity wasn't a design goal.

What Bitcoin is, is a ledger full of pseudonymous transactions. Pseudonymity is not anonymity, though with sufficient care it is possible to ensure that a pseudonym is not tied to any real-world identity, achieving anonymity, but that's all outside the scope of what Bitcoin does.

The problem here is that people want to think by analogy, rather than understanding the actual properties of the thing. If you use the mental shorthand that "Bitcoin is a digital form of cash", you'll expect it to be anonymous, and you'll be wrong. This is similar to the way people insist on analogizing biometric authentication with password authentication and then try to figure out whether the biometric is the password part or the username part, when in fact it's neither because it has entirely different properties.

But what about Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

They hide their money tax free in plain site - by the hundreds of billions lol... Good old mr timmy cook has dun cooked the books folks!

Re:But what about Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

plain site or plain sight?

learn english!

Re:But what about Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh? Apple paid billions in US taxes on billions in US profits last year (and the year before, and the year before, and ...). The only thing they're doing is keeping money made in other countries in those other countries, since the US has this weird notion that it should tax income in all countries (it's the only country in the world that I'm aware of that thinks that's valid).

Re:But what about Apple?

[Opportunist]

On this planet's side.

Wait, no, he's parking it in some tax haven.

Re:But what about Apple?

[BarbaraHudson]

plain site or plain sight?

learn english!

He meant "plane site." He's investing in a web site devoted to powered flight. :-)

Good representation of bitcoin users

[decep]

802 people reported Bitcoin profits and losses. That is probably a significant percentage of people that had enough usage of Bitcoin to even report. I know a lot of people use bitcoin, but I seriously doubt most people usage of Bitcoin warrant reporting on taxes.

Re:Good representation of bitcoin users

[supremebob]

To be brutally honest, the types of transactions that most people make with Bitcoin (drug buys, money laundering, etc) aren't exactly the ones you want to report to the government. If they were dumb enough to report those to the IRS, they'll have problems worse than tax evasion to worry about.

Re:Good representation of bitcoin users

[stabiesoft]

But it may be easier to prove they did not pay their taxes than to prove they sold drugs. IE, IRS: Where did that 500K in your bitcoin account come from? Drug seller: I don't know. IRS: You failed to declare that on your 1040, tax evasion, go directly to jail. Many criminals have been brought down by the IRS.

Re:Good representation of bitcoin users

[shaitand]

That argument falls on deaf ears with the IRS. If I buy you a cup of coffee you are supposed to report it. That said, the IRS didn't have established procedures for declaring Bitcoin gains and losses in 2015 or even a set standard. Was it capital gains? Was it additional income? Exactly how did one report it? There likely were quite a few people who picked other methods and would be able to show it if audited.

Re:Good representation of bitcoin users

[Anonymous Coward]

Not true. You can get a debit card connected to your bitcoin account. Say you bought 1 bitcoin at $1000. The value is now $4000. You go out with your bitcoin debit card and buy a new pair of $500 shoes but still have .75 bitcoin. You owe taxes. All legit.

This is the future of money. It's the only money that has actual value and is not created by fiat. In ten years, all currencies will be measured in terms of bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, not the other way around.

Re:Good representation of bitcoin users

[mark-t]

I didn't know that going directly to jail for tax evasion was actually a thing anymore. I thought that what they did now was they would assume it was an error, and notify the person, providing them with an opportunity to correct it by paying the amount owed (with interest, of course). I would imagine that one would only actually go to jail if they could be found to be deliberately avoiding paying the amount that they supposed to owe. This should require going to court first and so one wouldn't really go directly to jail, not to mention also getting lots of notice.

Re:Good representation of bitcoin users

[Anonymous Coward]

*derp* arithmetic off

"still have .875 bitcoin"

You get my point, though.

Re:Good representation of bitcoin users

[PPH]

IRS: Where did that 500K in your bitcoin account come from?
Me: Selling WoW goods.
IRS: Do you have any records to back that up?
Me: Yes. But they are cloaked by an invisibility spell.

Re:Good representation of bitcoin users

[Anonymous Coward]

Though legally, you need to report profits from crime to the IRS.

Re:Good representation of bitcoin users

[stabiesoft]

/sarcasm... Of course and yes they do give lots of notice. But in many cases the justice system cannot prove the criminal activity, just the spoils. So what has convicted many very hard to convict criminals is taxes. My personal experience with the IRS has been quite good, even when I've made some rather stupid mistakes. But they were not intended mistakes, just typos. If anything I've had friends do things that should have gotten them into much more trouble than it did. I fondly remember one friend telling me her accountant (an old probably senile guy) tell her she did not have to file quarterlies. She did. I told her to dump the guy as he was incompetent but she stuck with him until he died and left her in a world of hurt.

Re:ELIMINATE MODERATION

[EvilSS]

Sure, just as long as we also get rid of Anonymous Cowards as well.

Re:Better explanation

[Anonymous Coward]

No it is saving people in Venzuala.http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-23/bitcoin-saved-my-life

CI / CD fail @ /.

[Anonymous Coward]

And, in other news, /., a site promoting news for (technical) nerds, pushes some 'fix' which borks the comment counts on m.slashdot so the counts all show zero.

Awesome.

Re: ELIMINATE MODERATION

[Anonymous Coward]

You smug idiots really don't think this stuff over, do you? The only reason trolls post as anonymous cowards is because it's easiest to do so. Remove anonymous posting and logged-in trolls will return. You idiots really don't think this stuff over, do you?

Re: ELIMINATE MODERATION

[amalcolm]

I think you just proved the Slashdot is an echo chamber

Re:Scary

[Anonymous Coward]

Comparing a thorough taxman to the nazis shows that you have no grasp of history.

Re: ELIMINATE MODERATION

[tsqr]

Yup, an abusive moderator has censored this post to -1 rather than addressing the points raised within it. This is further evidence as to why moderation should be removed from Slashdot.

Well, the post to which you refer was almost entirely opinion stated as fact, which is enough to earn a downmod. With regard to "moderators don't post in stories because it will undo the moderation", I have moderated and posted (as AC) in the same story many times, and I suspect many others have as well.

Re:Scary

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. Because the #1 thing the Nazis were known for is their lax tax collection.

Re:Better explanation

[DontBeAMoran]

Stop trolling you fool. When Silk Road was closed, it barely made a dent in the daily crypto-currencies transactions. This is a well-known fact. You're just bitter than you didn't buy hundreds of Bitcoins in 2009.

Re: Scary

[Anonymous Coward]

Very true. The behavior of the IRS in taking all the money they can get their hands on is Jewish. The IRS is Jewish, which is the polar opposite of the Nazis.

Re: ELIMINATE MODERATION

[Anonymous Coward]

And then you probably modded up your own AC posts. That would be consistent with the many other abuses committed by moderators.

Bitcoin for retards

[Anonymous Coward]

USD for winners.

Re:Bitcoin for retards

[John Napkintosh]

Funny. A bunch of US dollars in one hand versus a bitcoin wallet address in the other - guess which one is earning me more right now? And no, financial instruments and investments are not USD.

Re:Bitcoin for retards

[Anonymous Coward]

Your bitcoins are an investment. You should be comparing your money in a stock market to your bitcoins.

Re:Scary

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think this you must be a Nazi.

Re:Better explanation

[shaitand]

"It's a strong indication that Bitcoin is mostly used for criminal activity."

Hardly. By that logic everyone using cash are mostly engaged in criminal activity. Day-to-day people just aren't thinking about everything in terms of taxes. Ted buys Joe lunch, it never even crosses Joe's mind to log the lunch and the amount so he can pay taxes on it later.

This is akin to the IRS announcing they've bought software to perform forensic analysis of lunch purchases because less than 300 people reported income from lunch gains in 2015. Hell, the IRS didn't even have rules that told you HOW to report Bitcoin as such in 2015 a lot of people who did some significant amount of trade likely did report but declared it via some other mechanism like capital gains or business income.

Taxes and crime

[sjbe]

To be brutally honest, the types of transactions that most people make with Bitcoin (drug buys, money laundering, etc) aren't exactly the ones you want to report to the government. If they were dumb enough to report those to the IRS, they'll have problems worse than tax evasion to worry about.

I wouldn't bet on that. Tax evasion is how they put Al Capone in prison. If you look on line 21 of the standard 1040 form you will see it says "Other income. List type and amount". It may as well say "report earnings from illegal drugs and other crimes here". This is where they get drug dealers because ANY income has to be reported by law, whether or not it was legally obtained. So if you don't report the earnings from drug deals (or any other crime) they bust you for tax evasion even if you manage to avoid prosecution for the crime itself.

Being a buyer doesn't really save you either. Use taxes, sales taxes, excise taxes, and more can all apply depending on what state you live in.

There are some interesting fifth amendment constitutional law issues regarding mechanisms used to collect taxes on illegal drugs. In some cases reporting drug earnings can violate your rights against self incrimination depending on how it is done.

Re: Better explanation

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because the transactions are often to pay to undo the damage done by ransomware rather than purchasing illegal goods and services. Idiot.

Taxes != theft

[sjbe]

Fuck you. Taxation is theft.

If you don't want to pay taxes go live in somewhere where you don't use any of the benefits of paying taxes. No rule of law, no police or other first responders, no roads, no military, no contract enforcement, no judicial system, limited health care, no public education, no science research, no parks, no vaccines, no space program, no internet, no food safety, no drug safety, etc. If you want to live in a civilized society shut up and pay your taxes and stop selfishly whining about it. You benefit from the results too. Taxes are only theft in the minds of stupid and selfish people.

Re:Taxes != theft

[Opportunist]

Somalia looks like his preferred place to live. No taxation there. Well, provided you can keep the bandits at bay.

Re:Taxes != theft

[Archangel Michael]

North Korea is a socialist paradise.

Two can play the game of strawman! WOOT

Re:Taxes != theft

[Anonymous Coward]

You can have those without taxation.

how?

Re:Taxes != theft

[letthelightin]

There's no taxation in the USA either, provided you can keep the bandits at bay.

Re:Taxes != theft

[BarbaraHudson]

Venezuela is getting there pretty damn fast. And the shit-hole known as India*, where tax evasion was so bad that they had to change the currency. 60% of households are without a toilet, no proper sewer system, people shitting in the open on sidewalks, that's what tax avoidance gets you. It's now even grounds for divorce because an Indian court has finally ruled that making women hold it in until after sunset so they can take a dump outside (hopefully unseen) is cruelty.

They keep saying "taxation is theft," but ignore the fact that if you don't pay your fair share, you're stealing from everyone else who has to make up the difference. Not paying tax is theft.

Re:Taxes != theft

[BarbaraHudson]

Fire services are often provided by volunteers where there isn't a sufficient tax base. But it's kind of useless without a working water system - the 500 gallon on-board water tank in a fire engine sometimes just isn't enough. And if they can't afford to pay for staffing, they can't afford to buy a tanker truck.

Re:Taxes != theft

[mysidia]

If you don't want to pay taxes go live in somewhere where you don't use any of the benefits of paying taxes.

Taxation BEYOND the value of the benefits paying taxes generates is theft.
Taxation to provide benefits that are Not common goods is also theft.
For example: If the government collects $100 from 1000 taxpayers, and then spends $100000 on a project or service that
only benefits 100 taxpayers, for example, maybe that tax money goes to a service that only helps parents with children,
and 900 taxpayers don't have kids, then that is stealing $100 from 900 taxpayers.

No rule of law, no police or other first responders, no roads, no military, no contract enforcement, no judicial system, limited health care,

In the US a TINY fraction of taxes collected go towards paying for anything substantively related to those benefits --- that is called the ACCEPTABLE/Agreeable/Necessary taxation required by the social contract, and the proper required Tax to pay for those services when properly managed are not what people are complaining about when they say Taxation is theft - you can argue about the proper amount, but it's not magically an amount that explodes with the value of your income ---- Theft is loss of taxpayer money due to corruption, personal favoritism, cronyism, nepotism, or spending tax money in excessive amounts or on unnecessary jobs or services to extract personal benefits for the decisionmakers such as political favors, power, monetary contributions, helping a friend, etc. Also, those benefits you mention are ALL provided by local governments (Not the feds), which are typically funded by Real Property taxes And Sales Taxes; None of which are affected by a person's income or bitcoin holdings -- The federal government has very little role in upholding the rule of law, only the states and cities have a meaningful role in Public Education, the Police you need are locals, Roads are built by the states, The best parks are State and City parks, not until you talk about Space Programs and Military do you get to federal services --- the Feds spend practically nothing on Space, the Military is far in excess of what is needed, Food Safety and Drug Safety programs are probably moreso detrimental than beneficial on the whole; the Internet is built by private industry, so are Vaccines..

In fact, if your income is $20k a year or $50k a year, you still receive essentially identical benefits from all government services, so there's no reasonable basis your tax (Cost) for those services should be different --- It is simply JUST a racket, AND it is theft and enslavement.

Re:Taxes != theft

[Anonymous Coward]

I see America kept the same attitude even after the massacre of Native Americans. Good job.

Do you honestly believe none of your ancestors killed others for land? It was pretty commonplace through human societal history. Doesn't make it right or wrong, but explain why you can single yourself out as one who has the right to pass judgment on others. For all I know some of your ancestors came over and helped, or supported it indirectly buy purchasing goods from the Americas.

Those who make statements like yours belie their own ignorance.

Re:Taxes != theft

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, never question the condition, quality and efficiency of the "products" and "services" you're "paying for" with your tax dollars!
They all must be just perfect and exactly what one needs and wants as it all comes from beings above reproach.
If you do question it in any way it is YOU that has the problem. So shut-up and pay no matter what!

Re:Taxes != theft

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't want to pay taxes go live in somewhere where you don't use any of the benefits of paying taxes.

Taxation BEYOND the value of the benefits paying taxes generates is theft.
Taxation to provide benefits that are Not common goods is also theft.
For example: If the government collects $100 from 1000 taxpayers, and then spends $100000 on a project or service that
only benefits 100 taxpayers, for example, maybe that tax money goes to a service that only helps parents with children,
and 900 taxpayers don't have kids, then that is stealing $100 from 900 taxpayers.

No rule of law, no police or other first responders, no roads, no military, no contract enforcement, no judicial system, limited health care,

In the US a TINY fraction of taxes collected go towards paying for anything substantively related to those benefits --- that is called the ACCEPTABLE/Agreeable/Necessary taxation required by the social contract, and the proper required Tax to pay for those services when properly managed are not what people are complaining about when they say Taxation is theft - you can argue about the proper amount, but it's not magically an amount that explodes with the value of your income ---- Theft is loss of taxpayer money due to corruption, personal favoritism, cronyism, nepotism, or spending tax money in excessive amounts or on unnecessary jobs or services to extract personal benefits for the decisionmakers such as political favors, power, monetary contributions, helping a friend, etc. Also, those benefits you mention are ALL provided by local governments (Not the feds), which are typically funded by Real Property taxes And Sales Taxes; None of which are affected by a person's income or bitcoin holdings -- The federal government has very little role in upholding the rule of law, only the states and cities have a meaningful role in Public Education, the Police you need are locals, Roads are built by the states, The best parks are State and City parks, not until you talk about Space Programs and Military do you get to federal services --- the Feds spend practically nothing on Space, the Military is far in excess of what is needed, Food Safety and Drug Safety programs are probably moreso detrimental than beneficial on the whole; the Internet is built by private industry, so are Vaccines..

In fact, if your income is $20k a year or $50k a year, you still receive essentially identical benefits from all government services, so there's no reasonable basis your tax (Cost) for those services should be different --- It is simply JUST a racket, AND it is theft and enslavement.

If you don't want to pay taxes go live in somewhere where you don't use any of the benefits of paying taxes.

Taxation BEYOND the value of the benefits paying taxes generates is theft.
Taxation to provide benefits that are Not common goods is also theft.
For example: If the government collects $100 from 1000 taxpayers, and then spends $100000 on a project or service that
only benefits 100 taxpayers, for example, maybe that tax money goes to a service that only helps parents with children,
and 900 taxpayers don't have kids, then that is stealing $100 from 900 taxpayers.

No rule of law, no police or other first responders, no roads, no military, no contract enforcement, no judicial system, limited health care,

In the US a TINY fraction of taxes collected go towards paying for anything substantively related to those benefits --- that is called the ACCEPTABLE/Agreeable/Necessary taxation required by the social contract, and the proper required Tax to pay for those services when properly managed are not what people are complaining about when they say Taxation is theft - you can argue about the proper amount, but it's not magically an amount that explodes with the value of your income ---- Theft is loss of taxpayer money due to corruption, per

Re:Taxes != theft

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck you white boy.. you are living on my peoples stolen land.... fucking pack of fucking thieves.. it was NEVER your land by right... and still isn't THIEF!!!

Re:Taxes != theft

[sheph]

I'm not sure where you live but it can't be in the US. I like the US, I don't want to move somewhere else. But let's not pretend there are no problems here.

Tell me all about the rule of law in places like Chicago, Los Angeles, and New York. Yes we pay quite a bit for police. They use their funding largely for union protectionism. They're all about writing tickets in the name of safety, but if someone breaks into your house they'll show up 2 hours later to write the report. Live in a place without the castle doctrine? Gee, sucks to be you. But boy we sure got the guns out of the hands of dangerous criminals by creating more laws that the criminals ignore anyway. Sure you can call the fire department if your house catches fire. They'll come faster than the police but if it's fully involved they're going to let it burn to the ground anyway because it's too dangerous to fight the fire. Another bastion of union protectionism. Roads? Our infrastructure is falling down. They keep raising the gas tax under the auspices of fixing the roads and then tear the same stretch of road up 5 times over the course of 10 years. The government also withholds the road funds from the state whenever they don't do what they want. They're providing a lot of value there to be sure. Public education more closely resembles public indoctrination. We keep rewriting the history books to favor an increasingly left wing agenda. We dumb down standards so that we can statistically graduate more students (they don't know anything, but hey the education system got paid and did their job by golly). The military is necessary, however it's been long well known that if you're ever selling the military anything you bill triple the cost because they'll gladly pay it (hey, it's not like it's their money). The other stuff you mention is also of various levels of worth mixed in with a whole lot of waste. Healthcare is a joke. The judicial system is a joke. The FDA is a really big joke.

I don't mind paying taxes if we're going to be fiscally responsible. But when things are run the way they are how can you call that anything other than theft? They take our money by force, put us in jail if we don't pay, and then largely fail to do what they promised with the money. The other thing to remember is that before 1920s all of these things were paid by other means. There was no income tax. It was supposed to be temporary. Another promise from a politician.

Re:Taxes != theft

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure where you live but it can't be in the US. I like the US, I don't want to move somewhere else. .... Healthcare is a joke. The judicial system is a joke. The FDA is a really big joke.

You sure you don't want to move somewhere else?

Re: Taxes != theft

[Anonymous Coward]

Is deciding not to work or to work less or at a lower paying job also theft?

Re:Taxes != theft

[edtice1559]

The way you keep the bandits away in "taxless" places is by paying extortion fees. What happens in lawless situations is that people band together to protect each other and there is strength in numbers. This works but involves a significant time contribution as well as personal danger. At some point, separation of labor makes it more efficient to have some people maintain order full time and everybody contribute financially to pay those who maintain order. Eventually you get to a modern society where you can spend time writing brain-dead posts on slashdot about taxes being unfair. Clearly society can be a victim of it's own success!

Re:Taxes != theft

[jittles]

Taxation to provide benefits that are Not common goods is also theft. For example: If the government collects $100 from 1000 taxpayers, and then spends $100000 on a project or service that only benefits 100 taxpayers, for example, maybe that tax money goes to a service that only helps parents with children, and 900 taxpayers don't have kids, then that is stealing $100 from 900 taxpayers.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. That's why we need to end public education. I don't receive ANY benefit whatsoever from public schools. It's not like those schools keep children busy and out of trouble. And I don't want educated employees for my company. I want poor, uneducated masses that I can exploit for as little as possible. It's not like they'll turn to crime out of boredom or sheer desperation or anything like that.

Re:Taxes != theft

[sheph]

Lol!!! I see the irony. But moving wouldn't fix any of those problems and I'd rather fix it than run away.

Re:Taxes != theft

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, you can just leave....... https://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/17/exposing-the-hidden-tax-costs-of-renouncing-us-citizenship.html Oh no you cant, you have to buy your freedom from the american tax system

Re:Taxes != theft

[trawg]

people shitting in the open on sidewalks,

Sounds like San Francisco!

Re: Taxes != theft

[KGIII]

There is lots of taxation in Somalia. You just don't recognize the governments that impose those taxes.

There's a whole lot if government in Somalia. You may know them by the name, 'warlords.'

Re:Taxes != theft

[Anonymous Coward]

Found the fucking idiot!

Re:Taxes != theft

[Anonymous Coward]

1. I love how you say "civilized" to refer to a system based on systemic coercion and theft.
2. Why should a person born on one continent have to move to some other corner of the world or, worse, live at sea just because there happens to be some violent and popular mafia that claims ownership of said continent and its population. You're attacking those born into slavery because they are brave enough to say that slavery is wrong.

Re: Taxes != theft

[Anonymous Coward]

Indians shitting on the sidewalk has nothing to do with tax avoidance. It's a religious thing.

Re:Taxes != theft

[stephenmac7]

The fact that India is not as developed as the United States says nothing about the effect of taxation or tax avoidance. You can't say "Bob is fat and Ronald is not. Bob is mean and Ronald is not. Therefore, being fat makes people mean."

Re:Taxes != theft

[Opportunist]

True, but I'm too honest a guy to found a religion.

Re:Taxes != theft

[mysidia]

Quite simply you have more to loose.

Sounds like the same logic behind mafia-style protection rackets.

You therefore derive a greater benefit from these services.

NOPE. You get essentially the same level of benefit everyone else does.
Ultimately the police/firefighters do VERY LITTLE or Nothing to directly protect your individual property regardless of value.
Sometimes they will delay or not even respond to situations where only property is at risk.
Burglaries are a low priority compared to almost anything else --- they would rather catch speeders, drunk drivers, or
marijuana dealers than burglars.

It is INSURANCE that will pay for your losses, which is a free and willing contract --- insurance is very expensive,
but still much less costly than taxes, oh yeah, and it's based on the actual value of your physical possessions - not theoretically possible
possessions your income could have potentially bought with such and such money coming in.

If the cops don't show up when you are robbed, you could loose more money.

That's not true; if you're talking about value of personal property and/or real property.
Experience says cops/first responders care about jack shit about how much money you lose or stand to lose.
Their efforts are primarily expended to protect lives or meet the mandates of their department (Catching certain types of criminals will get them bigger $$$) --- property is a low priority, and you're not going to get extra efforts
for your $$$ to preserve more of it.

Re:Taxes != theft

[ebvwfbw]

Try living in NK for a while. Get back to us, if you can. Let us know of all the "wonderful" things there.

Re:Taxes != theft

[BarbaraHudson]

On the contrary, taxes are needed, but not sufficient, to pay for public infrastructure. There also has to be the political will to build it. If the money isn't there, or a tax revenue stream to float bonds or loans against, all the political will to build infrastructure won't make it happen.

Re: Taxes != theft

[BarbaraHudson]

Someone who decides not to work but lives off their own money is not theft, same as someone who works well or at a lower paying job without depending on tax-funded benefits - someone who intentionally leaches off others is at best a thief, at worst scum.

MORE MONEY FOR CRONIES

[Anonymous Coward]

official government policy.

Re: ELIMINATE MODERATION

[Anonymous Coward]

I modded you down cause I don't speak whiny lil bitch.

Re:Scary

[Kiuas]

The IRS scares me. They will stop at nothing to get every last penny in taxes owed by everyone.

It scares you that officials seek to do their job effectively? What?

That's what tax officials do. They collect taxes that people owe. Some people, especially wealthier people and large corporations seek to use different mechanisms to avoid paying taxes that they legally owe. If tax officials allow this to happen, they're basically saying that tax evasion is fine at which point everyone with the money to hire a tax advisor/set up a shell company will stop paying taxes, and the entire tax burden will be left on those too poor to be able to use trickery to dodge taxes, which would be destructive to the entire society. There are those who argue this is in fact already at least partially the case seeing how little taxes many megacorporations pay to their respective countries, and seeing how abundant different sorts of tax-havens like Panama and the Caymans are.

Unless you yourself happen to be trying to use Bitcoin to dodge taxes, you should be in favor of this, because the more sucessfully people avoid taxes, the more the pool of tax paying citizens shrinks because tax-evasion, the more taxes you will pay.

Their basically tax-Nazis.

No. Wanting to catch people who break laws does not make anyone a nazi. This is just as stupid as calling the police "the crime-Nazis" for wanting to apprehend criminals. Now you may disagree with certain laws and argue that said laws or said taxes should not be collected, but for that to happen you need to change the law, not point the finger the whoever is enforcing said law and break Godwin's law without clearly having even a modicum of understanding of what the word you're throwing as an insult means.

BitCoin never was anonymous

[bradley13]

It's been said before: BitCoin is not anonymous. That's not even part of the design: by definition, the blockchain makes all transactions fully traceable. The only anonymity is one of obscurity, and the IRS software does not address this: how do you map a BitCoin address to a particular person.

If you have that information, however, then BitCoin is fully open, and transactions are fully traceable. Even the "mixers" are just a stupid game that serve little purpose other that to impose a fee on people with guilty consciences.

If you want anonymity, you need something like Monero. I'm wondering how long it will take for governments to start trying to make anonymous currencies illegal. After all, if you have nothing to hide, you should be happy to publish all of your financial details for all the world to see /sarc

Re:BitCoin never was anonymous

[PPH]

I'm wondering how long it will take for governments to start trying to make anonymous currencies illegal.

Benjamin Franklins are next.

Re:BitCoin never was anonymous

[HeckRuler]

Man, this was finally explained by a coward up there.

Bit coins flow like water, there's no serial number on individual coins. It's values in and out. They mix together. And there's an endless number of addresses, and those addresses aren't tied to real people (UNTIL THEY ARE).

So if you want to receive bitcoins anonymously, you make a new address, receive the bitcoins, put it into a mixer, and take it out with a different address.

Now the only entity that knows who you are is the mixer whom you paid as a centrally organized likely-criminal enterprise.... that will most certainly attract the attention of anyone wishing to bust a bunch of bad guys. And since you had to pay them, likely with credit card, the feds can simply go to VISA and get most of the info they really need..... hmmm, ok, so maybe it's not anonymous. oh, wait, no. Rather than specific mixers people just use big bitcoin exchanges. It'd be harder for the feds to get a warrant for all transactions on an exchange, which presumably has legitimate business.

Re: ELIMINATE MODERATION

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool then quit your bitchin and go to voat or something. They will love you there.

How does one tax internet-enabled bartering?

[Anonymous Coward]

If I had an AI that level-up'd a bunch of WoW accounts and then I traded these accounts for physical goods, how much should I be taxed?

If I decided not to pay the local mobster the "protection" money he thinks he's owed, am I breaking the "law" or standing up to crime?

Why aren't all forms of currency accepted everywhere?

Every currency-currency, currency-commodity, or commodity-commodity transaction is a gamble; you hope that what you receive will appreciate better than what you departed with. Sometimes the value of an item is worth what it means to you and sometimes it is worth what you think it means to others (for further trading). I think it's good for the Federal Reserve to have some healthy competition: whichever currency fucks their users the least will be adopted or the biggest fuckers will have to change their game plan to compete.

It's anonymous until you get that transaction

[rsilvergun]

and good enough is often if not always good enough. Bitcoin just needs to be one stop on the road to money laundering. The goal isn't to be perfect, it's to make a trail hard enough to follow that it's not worth the effort. Kinda like a password. In theory you could guess any password given enough time but in practice you can't.

Re:It's anonymous until you get that transaction

[Anonymous Coward]

In theory you could guess any password given enough time but in practice you can't.

In reality every password can be brute forced given enough time.
In reality you aren't given enough time, eventually the heat death of the universe happens and you need to call it a night.

Re:ELIMINATE MODERATION

[Anonymous Coward]

When I have mod points I AM GOD and you will bow to me

Re: Better explanation

[DontBeAMoran]

When ransomware hits, it's also barely a blip on the total number and total amount of transactions. Dumbass.

Re:Better explanation

[PPH]

Came to post something like this.

Anonymous currencies (which Bitcoin really isn't) and currencies not controlled by central banks (which Bitcoin is) are quite useful under authoritarian and/or despotic governments.

I expect Bitcion use to increase significantly in the USA over the next few years.

Balancing act

[ErichTheRed]

No one likes paying taxes, so any time the IRS figures out how to track income or close a loophole, there's bound to be lots of grumbling. The only tax that the IRS is pretty much guaranteed to get is the tax on W-2 income and investment capital gains due to automatic reporting. Everything else can be gamed. Large companies purchase tax loopholes by buying politicians and accounting services, and there's not much that can be done about that. Small companies are basically free to report what they want to report, and they just roll the dice and hope they don't get audited.

If you're a government agency that everyone hates, and never get adequate funding because of it, you're not going to have the resources to go after every small-time Bitcoin miner out there. The IRS can only afford to audit a tiny percentage of taxpayers every year. So naturally, they're going to go after the big fish. They'll concentrate efforts on all-cash businesses, high-wealth individuals and companies that are reporting classes of income and deductions that are frequently gamed. In my opinion, this Bitcoin thing is no different than the IRS going after wealthy people and companies who are stashing their income in tax-friendly offshore accounts. If you've made a couple grand in Bitcoin speculation, that's very different from someone using it to launder all their business profits for the year. It's just another tool for them to use to go after people that they would otherwise target...they're not going to audit an individual for a $200 charitable donation unless it's one of the small number of random audits they do.

If you want to avoid taxes, go open a deli or pizza place -- I guarantee the ones near me pay almost nothing in taxes because on paper they have a very meager income. Or, just start your own small business one-person corporation and funnel all of your personal expenses through it. Business owners don't personally own their house, cars or other possessions -- their company does, and uses the purchases to offset income. Wage-earners are the only ones paying the official tax rates because of it.

Re:Balancing act

[mysidia]

The only tax that the IRS is pretty much guaranteed to get is the tax on W-2 income and investment capital gains

Yes... and the W-2 Reporting and forced witholding is Unfair enforcement, because it disproportionately hurts Employees, while giving corporations, individual contractors, and "Gig" / "Odd" employees who take cash for every job an unfair advantage.

So if you give up being an employee, and go out on the street and do odd jobs on the street, you can hit the taxpayers twice ---- first because you don't report most of your cash incomes, and second, because you report income in a range that results in Earned Income Tax credit..

Come to think of it.... cryptocurrency could be a lot like cash If people accept every payment to a unique wallet AND they put their coins through a mixer service AND they SPEND their coins directly in person for services/items rather than go to an exchange, AND they make certain to exhaust bitcoin wallet addresses early and purge every trace of records of each wallet after all the coins are spent.

Re:Scary

[Anonymous Coward]

It scares you that officials seek to do their job effectively?

The government does not handle money effectively nor efficiently.

They are infamous for fraud and waste.

Even their so-called success is insanely wasteful in comparison to alternatives.

Why? Because their goal is political support not financial wisdom.

So before digging deeper into my pockets I want them to figure out how to manage the trillions that they are already getting. Apple, Google, Samsung, Microsoft, and most other private companies can manage to put out good products and continue to improve them year after year... and yet the government still hasn't fixed the huge pot hole on the off-ramp by my house that has been there for years. They infamously can't even put up a website to handle registrations for mandatory health care-- Google, operating on miniscule budget in comparison somehow manages to run a near monopoly on world internet searches.

Some taxes must be paid, of course!
But what if we could reduce taxes by twenty five percent and still have a surplus and still meet the government's obligations?

Re:Scary

[Anonymous Coward]

The IRS scares me. They will stop at nothing to get every last penny in taxes owed by everyone.

Everyone? Hah.

Only the taxes owed by the little people.

Taxes == robbery

[mi]

No rule of law, no police or other first responders, no roads, no military, no contract enforcement, no judicial system

The US had all this aplenty before introducing Federal Income Tax. Today all of those things you list take but a small fraction of the federal budget combined — the rest is consumed by the pseudo-charities like Medicaid.

limited health care, no public education, no science research, no parks, no vaccines, no space program, no internet, no food safety, no drug safety

None of this requires taxation — confiscation of money at the point of a weapon.

You benefit from the results too.

Irrelevant.

Taxes are only theft in the minds of stupid and selfish people.

Yes, the smart people realize, they aren't merely theft, but an outright armed robbery.

Re:Taxes == robbery

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the things mentioned by the OP come out of state and local taxes.

I don't mind paying those taxes. I feel like I get a lot out of it. Federal, not so much.

Re:Taxes == robbery

[peragrin]

Close

Military. 28% of the budget
Paying back debt to social security 33% of the budget and rising
This is money the federal government borrowed in the 70'sand 80's from SS when SS had a surplus annually and is required to pay back. Ask the baby boomers what they spent this money on. They are responsible for spending it but are too stupid and selfish to pay it back.

Medicare 30%. Because everyone kept expanding services wile doing something stupid like prevent Medicare from negotiating rates to keep prices down.

My numbers might be off a bit but everything but those three total less than 10% of the budget. Welfare food stamps whatever add up to less money than the annual budget deficit.

Lastly the annual budget starts in a deficit. The USA received 3.5 trillion in income(taxes) annually but budgets for 4 trillion in spending ( that was 2014 I think).

You want to control government spending. A simple ke would do wonders. This years budget equals last years revuene.
That won't solve all the issues but it solves the longest standing one is that they always assume 10% growth in revuene. Something like 40% of the national debt is from just that. Another 30% is debt owed to SS

Re:Taxes == robbery

[Anonymous Coward]

limited health care, no public education, no science research, no parks, no vaccines, no space program, no internet, no food safety, no drug safety

None of this requires taxation — confiscation of money at the point of a weapon.

For each of the following, please name at least one country that has the item without paying for it with taxes (By the way, hybrids do not count. If, for example, a country has both private and public health care, it doesn't count. The entire system must be unsupported by taxation):

Health care, public education, science research, parks, vaccines, a space program, an internet-like network, food safety, drug safety.

Re: Taxes == robbery

[KGIII]

The boomers really didn't get much power until later than those years you listed. Look at the age of politicians and then look at the birth years for the boomer generation.

For tax purposes

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it a currency or is it more like a stock - do you only count a profit/loss when you sell it?

Re: ELIMINATE MODERATION

[BarbaraHudson]

There is no reason to allow someone to moderate in a discussion and then post anonymously. That's a bug - one that can be easily fixed. It's also dishonest. Then again, most logged-in users hide behind nyms anyway, so they're more like "semi-anonymous cowards."

Now back on topic. The bitcoin chain holds a record of every transaction. The IRS shouldn't have too hard a time now going back over years of transaction records. There's the flaw of bitcoin - if anonymity is broken, every transaction is on record, not just the most recent activity. And for bitcoin to work, every transaction needs to be recorded. And if history has taught us anything, it's that any encryption can be broken given enough resources and motivation. Just more proof that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, I guess.

Re: ELIMINATE MODERATION

[BarbaraHudson]

Except that logged-in trolls are easy to spot, and down-modding them reduces the number of posts they can make to 2 per account per day - and if suddenly the same IP address is used to crap-flood, it's easy enough to ban.

Now if you REALLY want to clean up things, have validated accounts with a real identity behind them. Sure this won't stop crap (it doesn't on sites like facebook or twitter), but eventually the shit will hit the fan, because the Internet never forgets. Enough people lose job opportunities for being assholes, it will sink in.

Possible grounds for abuse

[Anonymous Coward]

Disclaimer: I own bitcoin. I got them in the early days around 2010-2011 when mining with a personal rig at home was still worth it. The bitcoin price around the time that I got them was around $7. Then it got increasingly difficult to mine, and I stopped. I keep my bitcoin in my own wallet, and I never put them on any "exchange". At the time it was ridiculous to think of declaring them, since the total value was below $50 and there was no mechanism to declare them either.
I still have those bitcoin. But with increasing talk of taxation and spy tools like those talked about in the OP, I'm now scared of using them. And the reason is, I think that if I were asked to pay taxes on them, I would have to pay taxes at the current rate of $4000 per, instead of the value at the time when I acquired them of $7. Taxation of income should be at the time you make the income, not the time that you spend it. But I'm pretty sure that's not how the IRS would interpret it.

Re:Possible grounds for abuse

[tmshort]

Yes, you would. It's called capital gains... I assume the IRS would consider BTC an investment, rather than earned income. The capital gains tax rate is actually lower than earned income.
So you should've paid tax on the earned income of $7 (since you worked for that) in 2010/2011 (which would've been $0). Then you'd have a cost basis of $7. If you sold that 1 BTC 9possibly wrong assumption) for $4000, the capital gains would be $3993, for a tax of $598.95 (15%) assuming you make more than $37,950 filing as a single individual...

The problem is that just because you cash it out, doesn't mean you spend it, but it does mean you now have that "income" available to you. If the US were to tax based on spending, it'd have a nationwide sales tax (which is considered regressive) rather than an income tax.

Evading copyright?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hell yeah! Now if you'll excuse me I have a torrent to download.

Scary electricity

[Anonymous Coward]

All bitcoin is is a means to convert electricity into fiat money. Kind of silly to be taxing electricity.

Re: ELIMINATE MODERATION

[GuB-42]

There is no reason to allow someone to moderate in a discussion and then post anonymously. That's a bug - one that can be easily fixed.

Checking the "Post Anonymously" box is equivalent to logging out and then posting. This can also be achieved by loading the discussion in a private browser tab. So you have your reason : the workaround would be trivial.

Now back on topic. The bitcoin chain holds a record of every transaction. The IRS shouldn't have too hard a time now going back over years of transaction records. There's the flaw of bitcoin - if anonymity is broken, every transaction is on record, not just the most recent activity. And for bitcoin to work, every transaction needs to be recorded. And if history has taught us anything, it's that any encryption can be broken given enough resources and motivation. Just more proof that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, I guess.

Anonymity never was a design goal for Bitcoin. It is just that the system doesn't requires personal information to function. And the crypto behind Bitcoin is pretty solid, AFAIK it is even quantum computer proof. And should the current algorithms break, it would be possible to update the protocol.

Re: ELIMINATE MODERATION

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no reason to allow someone to moderate in a discussion and then post anonymously.

Sure there is. You can't accumulate mod points or gain/lose karma by posting as AC. And by the way: login, moderate, log out, post as AC. How would /. be able to prevent that?

Re:Scary

[Anonymous Coward]

Blah blah blah. It's theft. Get it through your fucking skull.

Re:Scary

[Anonymous Coward]

Hopefully Turbotax and the like will guide us through paying our taxes on BTC. I don't mind so much doing my civic duty. Where I take issue is the fucking complexity in it all that even our elected officials shrug on the validity of its implementation. Hell, get enough tax professionals togeather, and they will argue till the cows come home. It's insanity! And the worst part is, depending on if you followed the law correctly, you still might have broken it, and thus YOU, the tax payer is on the hook for the big-o-ass penalty and possible jail time.

Number One Person Of Interest ( Score: +4, True )

[Anonymous Coward]

should be this Con Artist.

The SEC and CFTC need to investigate Trump et al.'s insider trading given the daily flow of his insane tweets, statements, and brainfarts.

Yours In Finance,
K. Trout

Bitcoin vs Apple market cap

[Anonymous Coward]

The market cap for bitcoin is 70 billion (worldwide). Lets put that into perspective... the market cap for Apple is 815 billion. I would assume only a fraction of that 70 billion is held my US residents, lets say its half to be generous. Even if they collected all the potential tax on that 35 billion, you are looking at a whopping $10-12 billion payday.

And what percent of that do you actually think they will get? Maybe 10%, 20% if they are lucky... and just think of the time/training/effort/money involved in achieving that $1-2.4B.

It just doesnt sound worth it to me. Can you imagine training IRS auditors on blockchain tech.. LOL. Teaching them how to track down the user behind the address? How will they know it belongs to a US person? Just because it hits a US exchange? This is the whole Poloniex lawsuit all over again.

More than anything, its probably just scare tactics into getting more people to file bitcoin gains on their return.

Anonymizing cryptocurrency through cryptocurrency

[Anonymous Coward]

Crypto currency was utilize to anonymize your use of "currency". Now that there is a tool for revealing your anonymity, the only way to go is one more layer in: by employing another crypto currency. Perhaps all those doge coins or Coinyes that people have stocked piled could now be used for moving crypto currency around now that Bitcoin has popular and "the man" has caught on.

Long live Coinye.
Long live fish sticks.

Wait

[Anonymous Coward]

USA actually have rule of law that makes sense, police that doesn't shoot you, roads without pothole, military that protects instead of shoot people, contract enforceable without loophole, judicial system that's not corruptive, parking space in cities, free vaccines, free internet, food safety and drug safety? Wow, all those past news articles about USA must be fake news!

Re:Better explanation

[Agripa]

"It's a strong indication that Bitcoin is mostly used for criminal activity."

Hardly. By that logic everyone using cash are mostly engaged in criminal activity.

Based on civil assets forfeiture, that is the logic being used by the government.

Re:Scary

[Anonymous Coward]

The IRS scares me. They will stop at nothing to get every last penny in taxes owed by everyone.

It scares you that officials seek to do their job effectively? What?

That's what tax officials do. They collect taxes that people owe. Some people, especially wealthier people and large corporations seek to use different mechanisms to avoid paying taxes that they legally owe. If tax officials allow this to happen, they're basically saying that tax evasion is fine at which point everyone with the money to hire a tax advisor/set up a shell company will stop paying taxes, and the entire tax burden will be left on those too poor to be able to use trickery to dodge taxes, which would be destructive to the entire society. There are those who argue this is in fact already at least partially the case seeing how little taxes many megacorporations pay to their respective countries, and seeing how abundant different sorts of tax-havens like Panama and the Caymans are.

Unless you yourself happen to be trying to use Bitcoin to dodge taxes, you should be in favor of this, because the more sucessfully people avoid taxes, the more the pool of tax paying citizens shrinks because tax-evasion, the more taxes you will pay.

Their basically tax-Nazis.

No. Wanting to catch people who break laws does not make anyone a nazi. This is just as stupid as calling the police "the crime-Nazis" for wanting to apprehend criminals. Now you may disagree with certain laws and argue that said laws or said taxes should not be collected, but for that to happen you need to change the law, not point the finger the whoever is enforcing said law and break Godwin's law without clearly having even a modicum of understanding of what the word you're throwing as an insult means.

Re: ELIMINATE MODERATION

[BarbaraHudson]

Come on, there are plenty of ways to track people who aren't logged in. Or are you that new to this / that naive?