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IP Lawyer Who Represented TiVo Is Trump's Pick As USPTO Chief (arstechnica.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: President Donald Trump has selected Andrei Iancu, the managing partner of a major Los Angeles law firm, to be the next head of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. Iancu has been a partner at Irell & Manella since 2004 and was an associate at the firm for five years earlier. His most notable work in the tech sector is likely his representation of TiVo Corp. in its long-running patent battles with companies like EchoStar, Motorola, Microsoft, Verizon, and Cisco. TiVo ultimately succeeded in compelling those defendants to pay up for its pioneering DVR patents, and payments to TiVo ultimately totaled more than $1.6 billion, according to Iancu's biography page. Iancu also had a hand in Immersion Corp.'s $82 million jury verdict against Sony Computer Entertainment, in which a jury found that Immersion's patent claims on tactile feedback technology were valid and infringed. Those big wins aside, most of Iancu's work has been on the defense side. He's represented eBay in a case against Acacia Research Corp., a large, publicly traded non-practicing entity, and he worked for Hewlett-Packard when it defended against Xerox patent claims. He's also worked in the medical device area, enforcing patents for St. Jude Medical on vascular closure devices.

67 comments

  1. Re:Good by bugs2squash · · Score: 2

    It's good that he probably understands what the problems are. Maybe less so that he is used to profiting by them.

    --
    Nullius in verba
  2. Sounds knowledgable by XXongo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Sounds like a person who is actually knowledgable about the patent system. Would be nice if we knew something about his opinions, though.

    1. Re:Sounds knowledgable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. Tivo definitely had a valid claim against those companies, but of course that doesn't mean those who represented them are for patent reform.

    2. Re:Sounds knowledgable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Do you know a lot of people in your work environment that go around espousing ethics over profitiability all the time? If anyone did that at my work place they wouldn't work there much longer....

      My point is it's kind of unfair to criticize industry people for what their public opinions are.... their opinion is always going to be profitability and whatever the field considers a middle ground for "fair." You won't ever know what their true intentions are until they are in the position of power to change things... if you DO know ahead of time then chances are you are dealing with an ideologue, and that person is going to be shitty at the job when they get in there...

    3. Re:Sounds knowledgable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if trump picked him... what do you think?

      anti consumer, pro big business, patent troll loving scumbag, is the safe bet.

      we will NOT see any beneficial patent reforms. that's the other safe bet.

    4. Re:Sounds knowledgable by HiThere · · Score: 2

      I didn't expect to like his politics. It's nice that it sounds like he picked someone competent for a change.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    5. Re:Sounds knowledgable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > if trump picked him... what do you think?

      > anti consumer, pro big business, patent troll loving scumbag, is the safe bet.

      if ( "trump" == "true" );
              then
                      printf "%0.sassumption\n" {1..4}
      fi

      Please go play in traffic. I am excited for the future and you keep bringing the collective IQ of the nation down.......

    6. Re:Sounds knowledgable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And hence we have a low-IQ idiot as a president

    7. Re:Sounds knowledgable by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > Agreed. Tivo definitely had a valid claim against those companies

      No. Not really. Their patents were the very definition of obvious. People are willing to overlook sound governance once their pet brand is involved. Tivo is the perfect example.

      I was wondering how long it wouI was wondering how long it would take for some fanboy to crawl out from under his rock and defend them.

      That is the real problem here. People are willing to make excuses for bad practices (when it's their pet brand) even in a forum like this where people in general are willing to attack the status quo. Doesn't matter that the majority would attack the choice just based on the President who made it.

      Principles are very wibbly wobbly things these days.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    8. Re:Sounds knowledgable by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Crass pragmatism has limits.

      Even crass pragmatism has to acknowledge the negative implications of frivolous patents.

      20 year monopolies over stupid shit aren't a trivial matter. They are a burden on everyone. Even crass corporations can give lip service to "the greater good".

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    9. Re:Sounds knowledgable by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Except you are not going to get a better option out of a Democrat. You're kidding yourself if you think so. All of those virtue signalling companies in Silicon Valley wouldn't stand for it.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    10. Re:Sounds knowledgable by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > And hence we have a low-IQ idiot as a president

      Except Forrest Gump bothered to acknowledge the rules and game those rules to his advantage.

      This triggered thunderous shrill cries of "unfair! change the rules!".

      That's not bad for a drooling mouth breather.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    11. Re:Sounds knowledgable by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      "For their pet brands" -- you're ruling out astroturfing. You are also ruling out astroturfing "on your side". You, yourself, could be an astroturfer with a pre-written FUD response. It even includes moral invective against the opposing side, which is not a valid argument of persuasion.

      I wonder if most online discussions of controversial topics, especially ones involving government power affecting money, even involve real, independent people anymore.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  3. Hot Garbage by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    Who else but a patent troll would you think Trump would appoint to run the USPTO?

    There has never been an administration this corrupt, this "pay-to-play", this openly and wantonly willing to break ethics laws. I'm not even sure there's anyone in second place. I mean, all the way down to over-charging the Secret Service for golf cart rentals when they take the frequent trips to Trump properties to make sure no one disturbs the royal golf games.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:Hot Garbage by MAXOMENOS · · Score: 2

      I despise Trump and everything he stands for, too, but I'm still willing to consider that he might have stumbled into a decent pick. Do we have concrete examples of where Andrei Iancu is monstrously bad (or for that matter, pretty good) about IP and IP reforms?

    2. Re:Hot Garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Learn to read, this guy *fought* trolls, and represented "practicing entities". No idea if he'll be good for the patent system, but I at least know he isn't a troll.

    3. Re:Hot Garbage by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Who else but a patent troll would you think Trump would appoint to run the USPTO?

      This guy defended companies against patent trolls. But it appears you don't need factual info to form your opinion.

    4. Re:Hot Garbage by nwaack · · Score: 1

      I'd mod this '-1 completely ignores facts' if I could. Just because you hate Trump doesn't mean you get to make up whatever you want about him. Yeesh.

    5. Re: Hot Garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trump picked him. Trump doesn't do anything if it doesn't delight the Dark Prince.

    6. Re:Hot Garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then you are a fool who cannot learn from past experiences and should be lead to a large cliff and shoved off before being allowed to vote again.

    7. Re:Hot Garbage by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1, Interesting

      This guy defended companies against patent trolls. But it appears you don't need factual info to form your opinion.

      Here, let me help you.

      This is from the article:

      His most notable work in the tech sector is likely his representation of TiVo Corp. in its long-running patent battles with companies like EchoStar, Motorola, Microsoft, Verizon, and Cisco. TiVo ultimately succeeded in compelling those defendants to pay up for its pioneering DVR patents, and payments to TiVo ultimately totaled more than $1.6 billion, according to Iancu's biography page. Iancu also had a hand in Immersion Corp.'s $82 million jury verdict against Sony Computer Entertainment, in which a jury found that Immersion's patent claims on tactile feedback technology were valid and infringed.

      Does that sound like someone who is "defending against patent trolls to you? He got a $62 million award against Sony claiming that Immersiion had the rights to "tactile feedback technology". This guy is an ambulance chaser. He's a successful ambulance chaser, I will grant you, but he's swamp scum sucking off the work of productive people.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    8. Re: Hot Garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He doesn't actually like Obama.

    9. Re:Hot Garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rent free.

    10. Re:Hot Garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The GP got a 5+ insightful, so he has the wisdom of the mob. All you have is stupid facts.

      Seriously though, in today's world, all appointments should be viewed with great skepticism and an underlying assumption of some personal gain somewhere, even if not blatantly obvious. Any other stance on politics is just absurd.

    11. Re:Hot Garbage by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 5, Informative

      Does that sound like someone who is "defending against patent trolls to you?

      Well, you conveniently snipped your quote to omit the case where he defended eBay again Acacia, for one. Here are some others:

      1. Defended LG against Imperium IP Holdings.
      2. Defended RIM against Advanced Display Technologies of Texas.
      3. Defended RIM against Negotiated Data Solutions.
      4. Defended RIM against Unified Messaging Solutions.
      5. Defended RIM against Golden Bridge Technology.

    12. Re:Hot Garbage by squiggleslash · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, he's TiVo's patent lawyer. You know, the company that successfully sued Dish Network over technologies that predate TiVo's founding, but that TiVo was merely the first to popularize.

      It's in the summary.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    13. Re:Hot Garbage by PopeRatface · · Score: 1

      Looky here, goy - if Trump appointed him, he's a Nazi! How do I know he's a Nazi? Because they're all Nazis, I tells ya! NAZIS! THEY'RE ALL NAZIS I SAY! It's like anudda Shoah in here I tells ya! Anudda Shoah!

      --
      Oy vey! It's anudda Shoah, I tells ya! Anudda Shoah!
    14. Re:Hot Garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      he's swamp scum sucking off the work of productive people.

      Hello pot? Kettle on line 2!

    15. Re: Hot Garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RIM is crap. He just has a history of working for shitty companies.

    16. Re:Hot Garbage by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      So, what you're saying is that this guy, this parasite, that Trump appointed has been making a nice living by playing both sides of the patent dysfunction.

      Perfect. He's like a doctor who works for the tobacco industry. He's a goddamn shyster, the worst possible type of person to run the USPTO. People like Andrei Iancu are why our patent system is so messed up.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    17. Re:Hot Garbage by EETech1 · · Score: 1

      Time to make some white kettles!

    18. Re:Hot Garbage by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 1

      So, what you're saying is that this guy, this parasite, that Trump appointed has been making a nice living by playing both sides of the patent dysfunction.

      No, I wasn't saying anything of the sort. I was saying that your position that he doesn't defend companies against patent trolls is utter crap. Your response was to shamelessly jump to another lilypad and come up with some new inflammatory rhetoric.

      Your new position might possibly have some merit if he had both represented and defended against patent trolls, but that doesn't appear to be the case and I haven't seen you suggest it.

      As it is, this seems to leave you saying that we wouldn't want someone who is well-versed in legitimate companies' interests in both sides of patent disputes, and thus understands all the considerations at play from the various stakeholders, to be in charge of the Patent Office. That makes about as much sense as about anything else I read from you, I suppose.

    19. Re:Hot Garbage by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      and thus understands all the considerations at play from the various stakeholders

      I love this construction. "He's great for running the Patent Office because he's understands the considerations of all the stakeholders."

      But that's only if you consider "all of the various stakeholders" to include only huge corporate interests. What you fail to understand is that the greatest "stakeholder" in the patent wars is actually the consumer. First, because the goddamn consumer is footing the bill for the whole fucking thing. Every single penny going to the pockets of these huge corporations and their legal representation comes from the pocket of a consumer. EVERY. SINGLE. PENNY. And ultimately, the entire point of the USPTO is not to "protect stakeholders' interests" but to encourage innovation. We've got these corporations twisting the patent system until it screams. Putting all their US-granted patents into an offshore shell company and then paying "license fees" to those shell companies so they don't have to pay taxes on them. Then, they abuse the length of patents to jack up prices the way that greasy Martin Shkreli did before he got convicted of other crimes.

      So that's why I object to a representative of Big IP becoming the head of the USPTO. Because there is absolutely nothing in the man's background to indicate he gives one swinging fuck about what's best for the consumer, or what's best for innovation, or what's best for society. All he knows is what's best for his corporate interests.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    20. Re: Hot Garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obama was the Dark Emperor, not the Dark Prince.

      I'm sorry.

    21. Re:Hot Garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're not a patent troll if you're actually using the patents in your own technology. That's called protecting your invention.

      Get over your hate for Trump and recognize a good thing when it finally happens. A person that has worked in the patent system is going to recognize the good and the bad in the system. I'm sure that he also witnessed -- if not participated in -- plenty of patent troll lawsuits.

      So, I suppose from your standpoint, he should have not been involved in the patent system, but then he should manage it. That's dumber than you're trying to claim Trump to be.

    22. Re:Hot Garbage by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Does that sound like someone who is "defending against patent trolls to you?

      Maybe because those few examples need to be balanced against that very clear statement;

      Those big wins aside, most of Iancu's work has been on the defense side

      and the article goes on to explain more, but not so prominently as the items highlighted by the author with the intent to paint a picture in your mind, and you seemed willing to allow it to be a canvas.

    23. Re: Hot Garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "in today's world"

      Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was.

    24. Re: Hot Garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, guilty till proven innocent.

      It's a Trump appointment, it must be bad.

      Ratzo, just give up.

    25. Re:Hot Garbage by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      No, I wasn't saying anything of the sort. I was saying that your position that he doesn't defend companies against patent trolls is utter crap

      Every large company has to defend against patent trolls. The real question is whether he was a patent troll himself, and he has that history as well.

    26. Re:Hot Garbage by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 1

      The real question is whether he was a patent troll himself, and he has that history as well.

      I didn't see any cases where he represented patent trolls, and I note you didn't cite any. If you have any specifics, I'm happy to discuss.

    27. Re:Hot Garbage by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      The real question is whether he was a patent troll himself, and he has that history as well.

      I didn't see any cases where he represented patent trolls, and I note you didn't cite any. If you have any specifics, I'm happy to discuss.

      Sure, I'll go into a specific: I think Tivo's original DVR patents were bullshit. Whether they won court cases or not, they got a club to wield against people using obvious techniques that had been in use before Tivo was doing it. I guess YMMV as to whether that -really- counts as "patent trolling," but I set a low bar.

    28. Re:Hot Garbage by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 1

      Sure, I'll go into a specific: I think Tivo's original DVR patents were bullshit. Whether they won court cases or not, they got a club to wield against people using obvious techniques that had been in use before Tivo was doing it. I guess YMMV as to whether that -really- counts as "patent trolling," but I set a low bar.

      Yeah, now I see the disconnect. The traditional "patent troll" just owns and tries to collect royalties on the patent without actually doing anything with it, and in fact the more formal term is "non-practicing entity." Poor patent quality often goes hand in hand with patent trolls/NPEs, but it's really a separate issue. A patent troll/NPE could assert a very high-quality patent (though it's statistically unlikely since they usually buy them and thus have to content themselves with more marginal ones), and an operating company that actually manufactures products incorporating its patents could assert a very low-quality patent (though that's less of an effective strategy these days given the legislative changes over the past few years that makes it easier to cost-effectively attack marginal patents in the Patent Office rather than in litigation).

  4. Re:Good by markdavis · · Score: 2

    It's good that he probably understands what the problems are. Maybe less so that he is used to profiting by them.

    Both valid points.

    But profiting by patents- either defending for them or against them (which he did both), doesn't necessarily mean he likes the system the way it is, only that he understands the rules/problems. He might very well support patent reform (as many of us on Slashdot do) but we just don't know.

    Software patents, especially, are far too vague/generic, and often obvious. They have caused all kinds of stupid litigation that has hurt companies and consumers, alike.

  5. unimpressed by Thud457 · · Score: 1

    What, Daryl McBride wasn't available? Wait, no, should've pardoned Martin Shkreli and tapped him for the post.

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  6. Re:Good by bugs2squash · · Score: 3

    agreed - My tone was unnecessarily negative. The guy deserves the benefit of any doubt.

    --
    Nullius in verba
  7. The calculation by AlanObject · · Score: 2

    The candidate must be

    a) a true Trump believer that thinks all the bad press Trump has gotten is just partisan fear mongering.

    b) they think they are smart and independent and strong-willed enough to run the department credibly in spite of any shortcomings Trump or the rest of his crew might have.

    c) the increase in prestige of high office will do more for their reputation than association with Trump will hurt it.

    d) the entire structure is going to come crashing down regardless and the best plan is to be has high up on it as you can so you land on top and not underneath.

    Any other options? Any bets?

    1. Re: The calculation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As much as I hate Trump, I think the answer here looks a little like B, a little like C. Not really sure. By default I remain skeptical.

      This may also be a case of Trump picking a good pick in a position he doesn't care about in an effort to fix the narrative surrounding him. I think the damage is done, though, and no good picks from here on out will fix that. Just another failed calculated move from our Idiot in Chief.

    2. Re: The calculation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol-k, you have just defined the trump-spin

      1. Identify your dislike for Trump
      2. Identify why you are going to roll over and let him do whatever he wants.
      3. Profit!

    3. Re:The calculation by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 1

      e) He has a plan to cash in on this and get out without getting caught. If he gets caught maybe he has something he can leverage POTUS with to get a pardon.

    4. Re: The calculation by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      lol-k, you have just defined the trump-spin

      1. Identify your dislike for Trump
      2. Identify why you are going to roll over and let him do whatever he wants.

      So.... Trump is the devil because he could never ever, even accidentally/negligently/unintentionally, do a good thing?

  8. Patent is a ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

    ... is a virtue.

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  9. TiVo is a garbage company that stole from Linus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They hate freedom and open source so of course Trump loves them because only hateful thieves love that TiVo garbage that steals from content creators. Too many of them staved to death because of that TiVo garbage. Anyone that owned a TiVo is a Trumpster that wants TV to suck by chocking off their money. Chocking off their money.

  10. Re:Good by markdavis · · Score: 1

    I meant to add a ">" when quoting your original line in my reply... sorry about that :) I can't tell you how many times I wish I could correct things after they are posted.

    Anyway, in some ways it is a lot like people complaining about "the rich" using loopholes to lower their taxes. It isn't their fault the loopholes are there (at least I believe it isn't), and they would be stupid NOT to use them. Or people complaining about a President not winning the popular vote- that isn't the rules of the game, the electoral college is. There is nothing unethical or wrong about playing the games by the rules.

  11. What a career! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But now he's a racist.

  12. Re:Good by vux984 · · Score: 1

    It isn't their fault the loopholes are there (at least I believe it isn't)

    Yeah. It *is* their fault. Not so much the regular rich. The "upper middle class", and the "lower upper class" if you will. They just work within the laws that they are given. But the ultra rich ... they do help write the law, and have a lot of sway in creating the loopholes, and exert a lot of influence in protecting them.

    There is nothing unethical or wrong about playing the games by the rules.

    There is nothing illegal about playing games by the rules. There can be plenty wrong and unethical with it.

    And government is not a game; people don't get to shake hands and go home win or lose. Citizens are banned from serving in the military. Family members of citizens are barred from visiting because they come from given country. Rascist cops are given presidential pardons while the news is busy with a hurricane disaster. Missile strikes are given less focused attention than the cake at dessert. And while he's clearly enjoying playing president of the hurricane... even that wasn't enough for him to take a break from his campaign trail for 2020... bragging about winning Missouri in 16 mere moments after talking about the Texas situation.

  13. Dig The Hole Deeper by Chibi+Merrow · · Score: 1

    Here we have living proof of the phenomenon where, when confronted with proof their belief is wrong, people will just dig in further.

    Dude, patent trolls by definition are Non-Practicing Entities. Meaning they don't make products, just sue people for infringing on low-value patents. That description in no way describes TiVo or Immersion.

    Hey, guess what, Immersion DOES have the rights to "tactile feedback technology." THAT'S WHAT A PATENT IS! That's why Nintendo designed their Rumble Pak to work differently: Immersion had a patent on the rumble method Sony and Microsoft used.

    If you don't like patents, that's fine, but that has nothing to do with this guy.

    --
    Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
    Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
    1. Re:Dig The Hole Deeper by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      If you don't like patents, that's fine, but that has nothing to do with this guy.

      It has everything to do with "this guy". The head of the USPTO isn't there to represent patent-holders, he's there to represent the People. I'm surprised that you don't understand this. The idea that "this guy" is going to usher in some age of "patent reform" that will in any way help consumers is laughable.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    2. Re:Dig The Hole Deeper by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      No. Patent trolls are anyone that abuse the patent system. it doesn't matter if they are a manufacturer or not.

      You're trying to claim that harm doesn't exist because of the nature of the harm.

      You still have someone claiming ownership over something that isn't theirs. THAT is the relevant part of the "bridge troll" metaphor.

      Bullshit is bullshit regardless of whether or not you have a device that will be the only one allowed to be bought by the rest of us for 20 YEARS.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    3. Re:Dig The Hole Deeper by Chibi+Merrow · · Score: 1

      Stop moving the goalposts. The person you were responding to wasn't making some wild claims that this guy was some messiah that was going to reform anything. He's a patent attorney. He's familiar with the system. He's represented companies who were attacked by patent trolls, as well as companies who sued over technologies they actually developed and sold.

      What's novel about him is he's an apparently an uncharacteristically competent and experienced nominee compared to Trump's usual choices!

      --
      Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
      Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
    4. Re:Dig The Hole Deeper by Chibi+Merrow · · Score: 1

      You still have someone claiming ownership over something that isn't theirs.

      Who, exactly?

      --
      Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
      Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
  14. patent backlog by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are still some 32,000 patents filed in the 1980s and 90s that haven't issued some even further back. I believe the oldest known unexamined patent application is over 40 years old. What does this plan on doing about that? They need to go through those old patent applications as a priority. You may old patent applications so what but what if there are patents on things like mpeg, USB, HDTV, or smartphone technology .. if such a submarined patent applications suddenly issues everyone using a smartphone or the technology in question may owe a huge amount of back royalties.

  15. Re:Good by cmdr_klarg · · Score: 2

    agreed - My tone was unnecessarily negative. The guy deserves the benefit of any doubt.

    He does. In your defense, it is said that the pessimist is rarely disappointed.

    --
    THE SOFTWARE, IT NO WORKY!!!
  16. Misread it as Paid Time Off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm just saying that being 45 has hardly worked at all while in Office; he'd need a Paid Time Off manager, LOL.

  17. Re:Good by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

    Anyway, in some ways it is a lot like people complaining about "the rich" using loopholes to lower their taxes. It isn't their fault the loopholes are there (at least I believe it isn't), ...

    Well, they pay a fortune in "Campaign contributions" nee bribery every election cycle to get those loopholes injected, so......

  18. Re:Good by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 1

    I meant to add a ">" when quoting your original line in my reply... sorry about that :) I can't tell you how many times I wish I could correct things after they are posted.

    You can also use <quote> and </quote> to quote another post...

    --
    Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.