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Why Oracle Should Cede Control of Java SE (infoworld.com)
An anonymous reader quotes InfoWorld:
Now that Oracle wants to turn over leadership of enterprise Java's (Java EE's) development to a still-unnamed open source foundation, might the same thing happen with the standard edition of Java (Java SE) that Oracle also controls? Such a move could produce substantial benefits... Oracle said it has no plans to make such a move. But the potential fruits of a such a move are undeniable.
For one, a loosening of Oracle's control could entice other contributors to Java to participate more... [W]ith the current Oracle-dominated setup, other companies and individuals could be reluctant to contribute a lot if they see it as benefiting a major software industry provider -- and possible rival -- like Oracle... Indeed, the 22-year-old language and platform could be given a whole new lease on life, if the open source community rises to the occasion and boosts participation...
Despite the potential to grow Java SE by ceding control, Oracle seems content to hold on to its place as the steward of JDK development. But that could change given the tempestuous relationship Oracle has with parts of the Java community. Oracle has been at loggerheads with the community over both Java SE and Java EE... Oracle may at some point decide it is easier to just cede control rather than having to keep soothing the ruffled feathers that keep occurring among its Java partners.
For one, a loosening of Oracle's control could entice other contributors to Java to participate more... [W]ith the current Oracle-dominated setup, other companies and individuals could be reluctant to contribute a lot if they see it as benefiting a major software industry provider -- and possible rival -- like Oracle... Indeed, the 22-year-old language and platform could be given a whole new lease on life, if the open source community rises to the occasion and boosts participation...
Despite the potential to grow Java SE by ceding control, Oracle seems content to hold on to its place as the steward of JDK development. But that could change given the tempestuous relationship Oracle has with parts of the Java community. Oracle has been at loggerheads with the community over both Java SE and Java EE... Oracle may at some point decide it is easier to just cede control rather than having to keep soothing the ruffled feathers that keep occurring among its Java partners.
I think they acquired Sun (and Java as a result) as a dick move towards Google. If they had any inclination to do so, way back then would have been the opportune time. Doing so now would be seen as admitting defeat (as if the court loss wasn't a big enough statement).
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
Open source ruins everything
This is true. However, Java is already shit, so going open source wouldn't be a big change.
Java is a cancer that needs to die.
It's already pretty much dead. Running a system without a JVM is entirely possible today - i've done so for years.
I would never consider writing any software that depended on a JVM. Under any circumstances. Having had to support that kind of thing for the last 20+ years, i'd never willingly subject others to it.
The name is poison and it's dying its well-deserved death in just about every space you could mention. Even the military is divesting itself of Java, bit by bit.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Yeah, it's the #1 language on TIOBE index by a large margain, but it's dead. Sure. Ok.
Is there something about the millennial generation to just convince themselves what they like to be true? I mean, I think Justin Beiber is the worst, but I don't pretend that everyone hates him and his career is over.
Come back to reality kid. Java is used now more than ever, and will continue to be used for a very long time.
Oracle has been struggling to make Java even worse by themselves. Might as well let the community that brought us Gnome and SystemD dig it further in the ground.
Java is the new Cobol. Big doesn't mean good.
Wait, Windows is open source?
With your command of the facts, you sound like a trump voter. Yes?
And 57 years later it's still in the Top 25, what's your point?
It also took a long time for COBOL to fall, and Java is #1 right now. Java isn't going away tomorrow, or next year, or ten years from now.
I get the Java hate, there's a lot of things I don't like about Java, but are any of you living in reality. Declaring Java dead doesn't make it so, it just makes you look like a moron.
But but over "3-beeillion devices run Java." Ah ha I see what they did there! They never said they run Java *well*.
That means nothing. I've been to plenty of businesses where they have policies in place now they actively prevent Java apps being used. It's a dying language. Part of the problem is that they are still teaching it in universities and that probably contributes to their perceived popularity.
^^ Fact free politics-style rant, asking readers to agree on the basis of the writer's "passion" and reference to "dealing with it for 20 years".
Will that be enough here? *shrugs*
decides to include the new open-source Java as a part of it's .NET platform just to piss in Oracle's face.
"Profanity is the one language all programmers know best."
by Node.js and Angular for anything besides the odd query to a database here and there?
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
What languages do they use instead? Ruby? Go? Rust? JavaScript?
I went to Indeed right now and put in "java developer".
Jobs 1 to 10 of 30,796
Is there another language I could enter that would list a lot more jobs? Sure, every company has languages they won't use. I want some proof that Java is dead and/or dying, not "well, I don't like it so it's dead" or "well, my company won't use it so it's dead' or "well, the military is throwing it away, and no, I don't have a source for that".
Paul Krill is a joke. Just look at his history.
Larry Ellison didn't get to where he is (one of the richest in the world) by giving shit away. Is there a tax deduction involved? Hidden agenda?
the Rust Moderation Team, which enforces the Rust Code of Conduct. This code of conduct ensures a tolerant environment for all. Anyone who doesn't show tolerance is excluded.
We should use Rust to bring peace to the Middle East.
You joke, but this is what the Rust Code of Conduct says (with emphasis added):
The same paragraph that states "we don’t tolerate behavior that excludes people" starts with "We will exclude you from interaction".
Intolerance is the one exception to tolerance. Sorry if that seems like an oxymoron but it's the truth.
But the potential fruits of a such a move are undeniable.
How are these "potential fruits" going to help Oracle? I ask because that's the only thing Oracle actually cares about.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
What about React?
Public corporations tend to do things to benefit themselves. Oracle fought to get APIs covered by copyright -- and won. That's a step backward in the US software world in an amazing amount. Yes, the court didn't make Google pay because fair-use, but fair-user is judged on a case-by-case basis _at trial_. So going forward, because of Oracle's greed and unbending desire to control all of Java everything (and Android) all software developers in the US have this API pitfall to watch out for.
Second, even if there is no direct benefit, there's no indirect benefit to Oracle to open-source Java (or anything). So long as they can extract complex licensing and other fees from everyone wanting to use Java (EE) or the JDK or the API... that's exactly how they work.
Oracle wants to dominate The Market, All Markets, and Larry Ellison has an ego to rival anyone. Unfortunately people with large egos are unable to make decisions that benefit anyone other than themselves.
E
Java is disappearing from military and corporate requirements.
US Army mandate to write all new code in Java ended a few years ago.
It's going away. Really. It's time to learn a new language, for those who can. Unless you like being in dead-end support jobs for the next 20-30 years. Ask your COBOL forebears how much they liked that.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
If you want to do new, cool stuff, you're not doing it in Java.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
You're the smartass kid in class who takes everything literally as though its funny and clever and reads only enough of a sentence to feel like you're so smart to find a contradiction. But that contradiction falls apart when actually comprehending the whole sentence, had you cared to read it whole.
Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
Ceding control would only attract the scum who want to damage Java and create a string of compatibility issues from now to eternity. There is a certain value to saying 'Java is just about complete, and any changes should have compelling reasons' and trying to enforce that, rather than letting the language morons water it down with crap. Protecting the industry's investment in Java software is a worthy goal and should be worth billions to Oracle alone.
You might be retarded
Wrong. If you don't tolerate intolerance then you inherently become intolerant yourself. The only way to be tolerant is to tolerate those who are intolerant. It's that simple. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong, like you are.
Who does Trump hate the most? Negros or Mexicans?
Not might be; is fully and completely retarded. Nosql has replaced SQL, seriously? That's the same level of stupidity that has people here declaring Java dead.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Read the quoted paragraph again, and actually put some thought into it this time.
By excluding people who insult, demean or harass anyone, the Rust community has itself created a socially marginalized group that consists of these people who insult, demean or harass anyone.
By excluding this socially marginalized group of people that they've created, the Rust community itself inherently violates of its own code of conduct, which says it's unacceptable to exclude people in socially marginalized groups.
The Rust Code of Conduct is so inherently contradictory that merely by following the policies of the Rust Code of Conduct one inherently ends up violating the Rust Code of Conduct!
It's even sadder when one realizes that this Rust Code of Conduct is being pushed by computer programmers, who by necessity have to avoid this sort of ambiguity and contradiction in order to write functioning software.
If they can't put together something as simple as a code of conduct without getting mired in contradiction, we can't expect them to write software that works properly.
I would think that the sheer number of job available that need it is what is contributing to it's "perceived popularity".
But of course, the number of jobs in which one would use a programming language is certainly a piss-poor indicator of any true merit it might have, right?
(eye-roll)
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
What about React?
Angular people don't like to talk about it because it's a better idea and they have no answer to it.
Let it go. Java had it's day in the sun during the .com era (no pun intended). It failed after Sun struck out bigtime on what could have been and the biggest thing in quite some time. .NET is taking over large scale stuff, and newer node.js, angular, and even Python for the small to medium projects. Java is outdated and Sun and then Oracle left it out to rot by not making native compilers and obsessing over making it work with Solaris and forcing developers not to do win32 only. Meanwhile Python for some reason doesn't have this problem.
It is legacy and a security risk and will never have a native look and feel and compiler. c# is what Java could have been and keeps getting innovations like Linq and generics (I might be outdated as I haven't touched Java in 10 years on generics). Let it die we have other newer things now.
http://saveie6.com/
It's place is on servers. Fucking billions of them. Running everything COBOL used to. Maybe you're so ignorant you confuse some policy for not installing java on PC's, which could be all you're talking about, with a general decline.
I think you are talking about desktops, in which case you are correct - a JVM is no longer needed.
On servers it's a different story. Java is huge and work well for server apps.
You are not smart enough to study, let alone make contributions to, moral philosophy. Much smarter people than you have gone through this and understand that this is not a contradiction. You have not said anything that is persuasive to anyone who actually understands ethics and morality.
I'd tell you to go read some Karl Popper, but you wouldn't understand it.
By excluding people who insult, demean or harass anyone, the Rust community has itself created a socially marginalized group that consists of these people who insult, demean or harass anyone.
No, they existed long before Rust came along. Assholes have always been with us. They are not, and have never been, an oppressed minority group. Either jerkwads can be socialised to exist to civil society, in which case they should be, or they can't, in which case they do not belong in civil society.
Open source, like everything worth doing these days, depends on teamwork. If someone is unable or unwilling to be part of a team without jerking off all over their would-be collaborators then they are of no use.
Read the quoted paragraph again, and actually put some thought into it this time.
By excluding people who insult, demean or harass anyone, the Rust community has itself created a socially marginalized group that consists of these people who insult, demean or harass anyone.
By excluding this socially marginalized group of people that they've created, the Rust community itself inherently violates of its own code of conduct, which says it's unacceptable to exclude people in socially marginalized groups.
The Rust Code of Conduct is so inherently contradictory that merely by following the policies of the Rust Code of Conduct one inherently ends up violating the Rust Code of Conduct!
That's nonsense. You can always choose not to be an asshole.
I wasn't aware COBOL had fallen, just the opposite. I've been reading articles about companies trying hard to get this generation to learn COBOL from us grey hairs who are all ready to retire and are not even interested in high dollar contract work anymore. It might no longer be the go-to language for something new, but it sure is still in use in a lot of places.
Let's repeat it for you: If you don't tolerate intolerance then you inherently become intolerant yourself. The only way to be tolerant is to tolerate those who are intolerant. It's that simple. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong.
NoSQL was a fad. Thankfully it is nearly over
White millenials, especially the ones that say shit like "java is dead", and "who does Trump hate the most?"
Funny rant, but they have 109 open issues. The number you gave is of total issues.
then it will cut its spending on Java. Unless IBM or Google step up the plate, Java may die.
Uncle Larry's track record for destroying companies remains unblemished. He bought Sun, stunted MySQL, poisoned Java, killed SPARC and hardly seems to have noticed that his investment has yielded declining returns from day one. Now Oracle's mass-layoff of the remnants of Sun is nigh. He knows to price of everything but the value of nothing.
Java has been dead for a while now. No one that matters cares.
All your product belong to Facebook
Awwwwwww, the graphic designer has a technical opinion. Keep up the good work! Have an encouragement ribbon.
Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
COBOL is probably dying, but certainly more slowly than COBOL programmers. The shortage of COBOL programmers will hurt.
There are F/OS COBOL versions (that are not welcome in my house), but the ecosystem that hosts most of it is laden with old IBM mainframe systems that are not F/OS. I'd think that can only hurt the availability of replacement COBOL people.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
APIs are creative products in a lasting form, and hence are copyrightable by pretty much all copyright law.
Not even Larry Ellison argued that there are any restrictions to using a published API to write software that interfaces with the API. The Java APIs can be used to write implementations of the APIs or to be called by other software. At least US copyright law is very clear on this: copyright can't be used to stop people from doing something. Everyone in the case where Oracle sued Google agrees on that, and the appeal court noted that specifically.
Oracle's claim was that Google used the APIs not for interoperability of software (perfectly legal) but to present developers with a familiar API rather than making them learn a new one. By their argument, nobody would be writing Dalvik libraries that would be useful for regular Java programming, and nobody would be writing Android apps that called regular Java libraries, and that the only reason Google used them was because they were familiar.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
I've used Java, Scala, C#, and many other languages in various jobs. So, I'm far from an expert in any of them. I haven't yet used Kotlin, but it seems like Intellij's attempt to answer the issues mentioned above. It brings in C#'s extension classes to handle a lot of what Scala would do with implicits. I loved that feature in C#. C#'s awesome Linq DSL is built upon it.
Java is simple in the beginning. But, IMO, it eventually becomes more complex than the others. Over years, Java code takes on the complexity of Spring / Guice, JPA, Jackson, and numerous other annotation-heavy, reflection-based dynamic programming solutions. Or (worse), it tries to fulfill the needs those provide with custom solutions which grow until they're riddled with bug-prone inconsistencies. In the long run, dealing with large amounts of bloated, copy-paste, inconsistent, poorly documented, custom implementations is harder than dealing with the initial learning curve of a nice DSL -- even if that DSL is implemented in Java via ugly annotations and obscure run time proxy classes.
As example among many, creating a simple POJO in Java often means creating custom getter, setter, toString, equals, and hashCode implementations. This is so common that every major IDE includes code generators which make it easy to create these. But, that generated code can be modified. So, maintaining that POJO forever requires future developers to pay attention to the generated code. IMO, hiding the boilerplate behind language features (or even Lombok annotations) is preferable.
JPA is a more sophisticated example of a Java DSL. Raw JDBC seems preferable at first. But, that road can eventually lead to an even bigger mess. A DSL comes with a learning curve which impedes development in the beginning (especially when the DSL is implemented in Java), but the alternatives aren't pretty in the long run.