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Ray Kurzweil Explains Why Technology Won't Eliminate Human Jobs (fortune.com)

Futurist Ray Kurzweil, now a director of engineering at Google, made an interesting argument in a new interview with Fortune: We have already eliminated all jobs several times in human history. How many jobs circa 1900 exist today? If I were a prescient futurist in 1900, I would say, "Okay, 38% of you work on farms; 25% of you work in factories. That's two-thirds of the population. I predict that by the year 2015, that will be 2% on farms and 9% in factories." And everybody would go, "Oh, my God, we're going to be out of work." I would say, "Well, don't worry, for every job we eliminate, we're going to create more jobs at the top of the skill ladder." And people would say, "What new jobs?" And I'd say, "Well, I don't know. We haven't invented them yet."

That continues to be the case, and it creates a difficult political issue because you can look at people driving cars and trucks, and you can be pretty confident those jobs will go away. And you can't describe the new jobs, because they're in industries and concepts that don't exist yet.

Kurzweil also argues that "the power and influence of governments is decreasing because of the tremendous power of social networks and economic trends..."

"A lot of people think things are getting worse, partly because that's actually an evolutionary adaptation: It's very important for your survival to be sensitive to bad news. A little rustling in the leaves may be a predator, and you better pay attention to that."

25 of 409 comments (clear)

  1. We'll never run out of douchebag futurists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Seriously, this is so dumb. It assumes an equal amount of social or intellectual positions will be eventually created and some smooth transition of the working populace to these new careers.

    Nope. Not going to happen.

    We will see more hookers, maids, maid/hookers, oddjobs contractors, etc. Already see this in high tech cities.

    1. Re:We'll never run out of douchebag futurists by mwvdlee · · Score: 3, Funny

      Okay, so the first few generations of sexbots will generate a massive job increase in the medical professions, but how about when they get sexbots to operate reliably?
      I guess there will always be jobs in energy generation, though.

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    2. Re:We'll never run out of douchebag futurists by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It assumes an equal amount of social or intellectual positions will be eventually created and some smooth transition of the working populace to these new careers.

      Plus it assumes that people will be smart enough and capable enough to actually do those jobs. I think we're already bumping up against that ceiling. The machines are going to take over and there's no stopping it. Humans will just be a tiny blip on the evolutionary landscape.

    3. Re: We'll never run out of douchebag futurists by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Subtract the number of accidents and violent incidents in the pursuit of sex as well as the STDs, unwanted pregnencies etc. and my guess is sexbots will decrease the number of jobs in the medical profession.

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    4. Re: We'll never run out of douchebag futurists by DThorne · · Score: 5, Insightful

      While I agree with your succinct evaluation of the man who used to be my hero back in Synclavier days, on a very broad level I agree with him. You can pick apart his specific arguments until the cows come home, but I'm tired of the Chicken Little stories about everyone on welfare while rich people get richer. It belies a complete lack of historical research - people have *always* been losing jobs to technological advancements, the only difference is in the specifics. Just because many of us aren't terribly removed from a period of massive growth (post war expansion), we see that constant growth as some sort of norm. Read more history.

    5. Re:We'll never run out of douchebag futurists by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Plus, isn't Kurzweil's thing "The Singularity", which takes (as something between a premise and an article of faith) the impending availability of AI so strong it ranks somewhere between "indistinguishable from magic" and "indistinguishable from divine power"?

      The "eh, don't worry, there will totally be jobs in the future, I just don't know what they'll be because they are so futuristic" assurances are rarely helpful; but among AI pessimists(either in terms of absolute capability or in terms of development schedule) they are at least plausible. Coming from someone who expects AI powerful enough to nerd-rapture him before he dies, less plausible.

    6. Re: We'll never run out of douchebag futurists by Evtim · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Always....always...always....

      A group of bacteria were growing in a petry dish. Their civilization lasted for 60 days. Every day they doubled their numbers. On the 59th day some bacteria were trying to make a point that the food is finite that this level of growth is unsustainable. "What, are you crazy!" - replied most of the rest - "We have always found a way! Look how numerous we have become, surviving and adapting for FULL 59 DAYS! Also - half the world is empty, you morons (yep, the last division changes the dish from half-full to full; progression, bitches)! Remember back in the ancient times during day 42 we ran out of food but we found a way, we found that New world full of untouched agar-agar (apart from few savage bacteria that we killed). And then there was that "crisis" during day 50 when we ran out of agar-agar but we mutated and started eating the polymers below, that the great bacteriophage in the sky created for us (that was the polymer support mesh that the PhD student used). We will always adapt, always have been and always will. Always, do you hear! Always!!! Bloody alarmists"....and so the 60th day came and the bacteria could not mutate to eat the dish itself. The great bacteriophage in the sky got all the souls she needed and the PhD student got his article.

      Ponder this (you can also stibbons it) - on one hand we have, unprecedented by their magnitude and significance, events coming towards us (machine learning replaces intellectual jobs as well, no?) and on the other we console ourselves by extrapolating past events that have nothing to do with what is coming. Weird! You understand that we can make machines run the whole of the economy. ALL of it. Forever, because AI learns faster so if we create a new job, ANY new job, AI will be able to do it better and cheaper...understand? All future jobs are gone as well. From that moment we either enter the Aurora situation - 1 human per 100 km2 served by thousands of robots or we kill each other since there is no "profit" in such future....

    7. Re: We'll never run out of douchebag futurists by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The difference is that in the past you could own the means of the production, i.e. the farm or the factory, but you still needed workers. Throw in some employment laws to protect those workers and it's viable.

      Now you can own the means of production, and it uses robots and AI to do all the work so you don't need to employ anyone.

      It's not the end of the world, but we do need to be aware of it and plan for how to deal with it. It could be great for all of us, we could work a few days a week and still enjoy a good quality of life. But like those employment laws that mandated shoes for child cleaners and some minimal level of safety, it needs to be regulated and managed.

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    8. Re:We'll never run out of douchebag futurists by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      For a lot of jobs, the demand isn't for people who are Smarter, but people who are kinder.

      Normally if you have an analytical job, you are so focused on the brain work, that you often will overlook other people and their feelings, hence why a lot of MD specialists are normally rather terse. Because with faced with a difficult problem, they are trying to solve the problem and often see their patient as a collection of biochemistry then a person who is feeling pain, and may be scared. Also for Tech workers we are trying to get the parts to work and get things going, we often fail to realize if there is a problem, people are actually frustrated and other people may be frustrated to because they are waiting for the results. We have smart people who can fix the problems, but what we also have are the people who may not smart enough to deal with the technical issues, but are rather nice people, however instead of having them talk to the customers and make people around them feel better, they may be put doing some menial job, such as data entry, or filling out forms. Where their skills are being lost on helping people.

      That is where Automation comes in, it does the menial job that people really don't want to do, allowing them to change their focus on doing human things.

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  2. Kurweil explains nothing by ARos · · Score: 5, Insightful

    During the last paragraph of the piece, Kurzeil merely articulates that 'creative destruction' has taken place several times since the industrial revolution. He doesn't actually present any evidence that creative destruction will recur in the age of AI.

    1. Re:Kurweil explains nothing by careysub · · Score: 4, Interesting

      He doesn't actually present any evidence that creative destruction will recur in the age of AI.

      He doesn't have to. He is simply pointing out that we've been having this argument since mechanical loom was invented hundreds of years ago. And every time the Luddites have claimed that there will be no more jobs, and every time they have been wrong.

      And for all of Kurzweil's prating about "history" he shows no evidence of actually spending the effort to study it, even though he certainly has had the time to do so.

      Funny thing about those "mechanical looms" (and spinning machines, etc.) they did put huge numbers of people out of work! The effect of the First Industrial Revolution on the largest industry in Great Britain - cloth manufacturing - was to wipe out 20% of the employment in the span of a couple of decades (starting about 1770), and create huge numbers of paupers, a problem that persisted for about 70 years before eventually the economic gains of industrialization created enough jobs to replace those that they destroyed, around 1840.

      The historical record about this disaster is very well known, even if you don't bother to actually read about the history of the First Industrial Revolution. The "Dickensian" slums are infamous. The Poor Laws. The work houses (prisons for being poor). The legacy of the petty crime explosion from the massive unemployment (e.g. the "transportation" of convicts to Australia when they couldn't build prisons fast enough).

      The Napoleonic Wars came along at a convenient time (1795-1815) to alleviate this significantly for a 20 year period by providing alternative employment for a fair chunk of young men, but these are not what you would call productive jobs.

      And the jobs created in factories for the first several generations were worse than the jobs destroyed. The health of the British population declined during that early period of growing average wealth. Wages fell, nutrition fell, adult heights fell, lifespans shortened, the proportion of the population fit for military service fell dramatically.

      "Pointing out" stuff that is not true is, well, lying.

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  3. Clear logical fallacy by engun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Let's take this to the extreme. Imagine that we invented AIs that matched the average human intellect. All of a sudden, most jobs would be eliminated (including robot repair, because robots would repair themselves), because most jobs no longer require humans. This is similar to how most horses are still out of a job since the advent of the automobile. So the idea that when one job is eliminated, a new one will always arise is simply false.

    That is therefore, not an argument to say that we should not welcome an AI revolution - I think such a revolution would bring more positives than negatives for the future of humanity. But to assume that jobs will continue to "invent" themselves is magical thinking - we should consider serious alternatives such as UBI.

    1. Re:Clear logical fallacy by evanh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Correct. And the associated money stops being needed also.

      The final question then becomes what do the humans in power do with all this automation given they no longer require their fellow humans to keep things running. Can rules be effective when a workforce is irrelevant?

      Maybe the ultimate logic of the "Three Laws of Robotics" is for the better after all.

    2. Re:Clear logical fallacy by Calydor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And airplanes will never be more than the proof of concept made by the Wright brothers. There's no way those principles will scale to anything that is economically feasible.

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    3. Re:Clear logical fallacy by The_Revelation · · Score: 3, Informative

      Engun's comment is very concise. I would add that I believe the premise of Kurzweil's argument is flawed. We have not replaced all of the jobs in human history already. Jobs such as teaching, customer service (markets, traders etc), prostitution and people at the start of the food chain have always had to exist. Sure, those jobs may have become augmented throughout time to improve volume, but have never come even close to becoming significantly displaced. I'm unsure as to how he is deriving his numbers.

    4. Re:Clear logical fallacy by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you want to continue the current power situation, yes.

      Our current economy depends on people having to work so they can get money so they can survive. If you take this away, money no longer holds power over people, which basically means that the people who do have lots of money (and hence power) today would become powerless overnight.

      You think they'll simply let that happen?

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    5. Re:Clear logical fallacy by apoc.famine · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A second flaw in his argument is that in the past, we've automated things that required low IQ labor and simple, repetitive tasks, while creating new jobs that required those same (lack-of) skill-sets. We're now at the point in time where any conceivable new job sector which might involve humans doing repetitive tasks will start with robots, not humans. Any conceivable new job sector that involves a lot of busy work and simple decision making will start with machine learning in place, not humans.
       
      If everyone was IQ 130+, we might be OK. But they're not. There are a lot of people of moderate intelligence with some skills that are actively being replaced by automation. And any replacement job we could think up for them will start with automation, because it's cheaper to build that system in the first place than retrofit it on a human-driven process.
       
      When robots and machine learning can do any job you're qualified to do better and faster, what do you do? It's not like blacksmiths who could transition to machine shop and garage workers in a generation or two. It's not like agriculture workers who could transition to assembly line work in a generation or two. When any conceivable job you could ever do can be done better by a robot, what do you do?

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    6. Re:Clear logical fallacy by gtall · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A deeper problem is how do we value people. We can see a hint of this in the environment, how do we value wild animals? Kill them all until there is nothing left? Kill only a percentage of them per year?

      Valuing people is a lot more complicated. Giving everyone a stipend is essentially putting a value upon them. What amount should that be? Should some be more valuable than others? If you deem your value too low, what will you do to increase it? Currently, criminal gangs provide a way to value some people. That's their allure, people joining them feel valued. The consequences are horrid. What happens to a person's sense of worth when s/he's valued economically through a stipend the same as every one else?

      High-minded notions that we'll all have more time to do the things we like presumes a rose-colored glasses view of humanity. The internet is wonderful, yet it spawns all sorts of nefarious activities. There's no reason to believe humans free to do as they choose will choose wonderfully up-lifting activities.

    7. Re:Clear logical fallacy by coofercat · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If indeed jobs do keep getting created, what will they be in? Advanced Quantum Mathematics with Midwifery? How may humans are ever going to be qualified to do these jobs? Right now we /.ers can see a whole load of tech jobs have been created by previous semi-revolutions, and we're 'consuming' them. However, for every one of us, there are dozens of kids we went to school with who'd just never get qualified enough for an interview, let alone a first-line support job.

      If the only jobs left are super-advanced, high brain-function type jobs, then 99% of the world just won't be doing much. In that sense, things are somewhat worrisome if AI really does become a 'thing'.

      It's possible that more of us will start to do things which previously weren't economically sensible. For example, I might decide to make wooden furniture. I'd probably make quite decent stuff, but right now I couldn't make something as good, or anywhere nearly as cheaply as a machine can do it - so it's not economically sensible to give up even a day a week of my IT job working on it. However, if I spent a bit of time learning, I could conceivably make "nostalgic, man-made stuff" which looked good, worked well and allowed people to have an emotional attachment to the object in a way that a machine made one wouldn't. With machines growing, harvesting and planking up the raw materials for me, I'd presumably be able to get them quite cheaply, and as my other primary needs were taken care of, I'd only need to sell for cost + margin.

      How the world will react when there's a market flooded with 'authentic man-made' spice racks, wonky shelves and wobbly chairs is anyone's guess though ;-) How anyone would pay for any of it also remains to be seen.

  4. World population has doubled since 1971 by skullandbones99 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The world population needs to be taken into account because the population density was much lower in the past. Therefore, during the industrial revolution, there was insufficient people available for work which forced innovations such as the steam engine.

    In modern times, people need to have good education in order to have good paying jobs. AI will start to take away the jobs of educated people and these people will find it hard to get a new job. We should worry about AI making humanity redundant.

    1. Re: World population has doubled since 1971 by Kjella · · Score: 4, Informative

      I doubt the absolute number of people matter much, if you have half the people you need half the food, clothes, houses, cars, TVs etc. and if you have double you need double. Maybe on the margin you have niche items/services that only exist because we're 8 billion or resource constraints where there's not enough Beluga caviar for everyone or you have scaling effects where building 200m iPhones takes less than 2x 100m but I think they're small when you look at the whole economy. For the most part supply and demand rise together.

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  5. he makes the same error as many by aepervius · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Human were shifted from low (mostly) skilled job which were automated toward low skilled job which were not automated. the things is, this revolution is to add intelligence and learning to the machines, and make them cheaper, so that ANY low skilled can be pretty much automated. heck even skilled job can job can be automated more and more... And ocne you reach that point, ANY new low skilled job which open CAN be automated. How does mr kurzweil take that into account ? because from what I can see he misses the difference between THIS revolution to the previous ones.

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    1. Re:he makes the same error as many by paiute · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The same thing that has always happened in history.

      The same thing that has always happened in history is mass slaughter and wars over what's left.

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  6. It's in the detail by bickerdyke · · Score: 4, Informative

    For a lead futurist, that's astonishingly undetailed. I read a much deeper piece a few months ago, and it agreed with Kurzweil in two major points:

    * Each technological progress eliminates human jobs
    * Each technological progress creates new jobs
    * While it's easy to predict the eliminated jobs, it is next to impossible to foresee the newly created ones
    * But they will likely be more skilled and less manual labor than the old ones

    But that's the starting point. It's here where the problems will start:

    * for the skilled jobs, you need skilled workers. What to do with Joe Sixpack or anyone just not capable to learn those skills? (or for the US: to afford certified studies of those skills) Let them starve? Take their dignity by putting them on a welfare budget just low enough to not starve, but we still can mock them as lazy bums wo don't want to work?

    * most countries are already complaining about a shortage of STEM (in Europe: MINT) degrees needed for the current "skilled" jobs

    * In numbers alone, the ration between eliminated and created jobs got worse with each "industrial revolution". During the first one, the combined labor force of farmhands set free by the beginning automation in farming was not enough to fulfill the labor needs of the new factories. For the following technologies, the ratio declined until the latest (digitalisation of office) did not create more new jobs than it ate. So for the next one, it may be the first time, where actually less new jobs will be created than eliminated. And that they require an already lacking skillset, is not helping either.

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  7. What Kurzweil doesn't address by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

    All former forms of automation and job elimination were not complete. People displaced from farms were required in the emerging production industries, those eliminated there by automation were required by the emerging service industry.

    The problem we're facing today is twofold, and it seems Kurzweil ignores that completely. Yes, so far we always gained new jobs replacing the old ones. People who were no longer needed as farmhands went on to become factory workers. Factory workers replaced by automation became service personnel. Every time with a long period of incredible suffering for the people displaced because the new industrial branches took lots of time to develop.

    But what should develop this time? We're about to reach the point where anything a human can do, a computer, a robot, a machine can do better, faster, more efficient and without any chance of getting sick or flipping the boss off because it found something better.

    Worse yet, people are not fungible products. You can't replace person A with person B. And you can't put someone into a new job and expect him to be able to do it. Every time we went through a "revolution" in our industry, the jobs that the least qualified people could do were eliminated. You could employ someone with an IQ of 70 as a farmhand before the advent of machinery. He was useful. Today? What should someone like this work as?

    And what will someone with an average IQ work as in the future? Those jobs are what machines can (almost) do today. What we can easily observe already is that the required qualification to have a job is getting higher and higher. When you look at unemployment statistics, you can easily see that the lower the qualification, the higher the unemployment rate.

    Kurzweil does not address that problem.

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