China Blocks WhatsApp (theverge.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Verge: China has blocked WhatsApp, security experts confirmed today to The New York Times (Warning: source may be paywalled). Over the past few months, WhatsApp has experienced brief disruptions to service, with users unable to send video chats or photos. Now, even text messages are completely blocked, according to Nadim Kobeissi, an applied cryptographer at Symbolic Software, a Paris-based research firm that also monitors digital censorship in China. Kobeissi found that China may have recently upgraded its firewall to detect and block the NoiseSocket protocol that WhatsApp uses to send texts, in addition to already blocking the HTTPS/TLS that WhatsApp uses to send photos and videos. He said, "I think it took time for the Chinese firewall to adapt to this new protocol so that it could also target text messages." His company noticed the app disruptions beginning last Wednesday.

Comments

alternatives?

[DavidB]

So what can be used instead if you need end to end encryption? Signal might work, but I'd be surprised if it isn't blocked. Tor has a chat client now, but I don't think it works on iOS or Android. Keybase.io has a nice client that might work.

Re:alternatives?

[green1]

There is no alternative. Sure there may be some apps that they aren't blocking yet, but that's not truly a long term solution.

You can't solve an oppressive regime by building better encryption. If enough people are getting around the firewall the regime will just crack down on whatever method they're using. If there are too many methods, they might switch to a whitelist instead of a blacklist, or they could take the approach of some governments and just ban internet access altogether.

The government of a country has effectively unlimited resources when being compared to the individual citizens of that country. And if they don't have enough resources, they'll just take the resources they need from those same citizens.

When your government is working against you, there is no safe and sustainable way to work around them.

Re:alternatives?

[loonycyborg]

Just use irc over ssh. No way they'd block ssh. That'd make system administration a pain for everyone including them :P

Re: alternatives?

[Anonymous Coward]

Last time I checked ssh out of China was throttled to the point of connection time outs.

Re:alternatives?

[Sloppy]

So what can be used instead if you need end to end encryption?

Software can "prevent" MitM attacks in the sense of detecting when they're attempted and then refusing to work. But it can't really prevent a MitM attacker who says "let me MitM or else I'll make things stop working."

Solutions are hard. Here are some:

Use different physical links that don't go through their firewall. e.g. run a cable or use radios across their border.

Kill them or vote them out, until you have a more human-friendly regime.

(Ok, here's one software solution, but it has problems.) Maybe use steganography and try stay below the radar, but that's not an option for anything big/popular/mainstream.

Re:alternatives?

[AHuxley]

One time pad by hand. Dont reuse. Take photo of code as part of a much larger image. That removes the encoding and decoding risk from any OS or product.

Re:alternatives?

[Luckyo]

Yes. Google has been blocked on chinese great firewall for quite a long time. That's why their android phones have special China only models. Normal android phones are utterly crippled in China.

Re:alternatives?

[Luckyo]

AFAIK great firewall throttles ssh to point of uselessness, unless you're on the whitelist (i.e. a major company with special exemption).

Re:alternatives?

[slashrio]

...apart from being none of our business what a sovereign country is doing (not to us).

Re:alternatives?

[gwolf]

Yes. Google has been blocked on chinese great firewall for quite a long time. That's why their android phones have special China only models. Normal android phones are utterly crippled in China.

You mean, they perform as badly as if they were Replicant / Cyanogen?

Re: alternatives?

[Maritz]

lagging behind where?

Everywhere. Who cares how fast it is if three fuckin quarters of it is censored?

America needs a firewall

[Anonymous Coward]

to protect us against hackers and people like Snowden and Wikileaks

Re:America needs a firewall

[easyTree]

And plants need umbrellas to protect them from the rain.

Re:America needs a firewall

[slashrio]

If this wasn't hate speech...

And?

[Gravis Zero]

There were only two expected outcomes here: either WhatsApp folds and gives China's government backdoor access to their application or they get blocked. The only thing this means is that they have opted for the highroad and got themselves blocked. I would be far more concerned about the applications that China's government acknowledges that they allow.

Re:And?

[SuricouRaven]

They could take the higher ground still and get into a 'tech battle.' Make the protocol harder to block, set up dynamic servers on public clouds. It'd be pretty much burning every bridge to doing business in China, but those bridges are not looking very dependable right now anyway. China does have a strongly protectionist attitude - even if WhatsApp complied, the government would still penalize them in favor of any Chinese-owned competitor.

Re:And?

[Anonymous Coward]

Whatsapp has nothing to gain in China if it gives in to pressure. It's only use case is "secure" communication with the world. China already has a completely dominant messenger app called WeChat that does everything from chatting to ordering food and instant payment. Of course WeChat is an open book to the Chinese government. Whatsapp cannot ever hope to make it big in China. Giving backdoor access to the Chinese government would jeopardize any semblance of trust they have in other countries and give away its single "selling point" in China.

Re:And?

[Luckyo]

It's not about backdoors. Chinese control communications on much greater level, such as policing content directly. Remember, there is no freedom of speech in China.

Well

[DaMattster]

I block China! So there! :-D

Re: Well

[DaMattster]

It was meant to be a joke. Alas, good sarcasm is missed by millennials.

Re: Well

[Maritz]

"Everyone I don't like is a millennial"

Solid thinking there buddy.

Support libpurple and Spectrum 2

[Zombie Ryushu]

While i think the removal of the repressive Chinese Government from power is the only real solution to all this. One way is to support additional protocols to support libpurple (the library responsible for Pidgin) and the XMPP Application Spectrum 2. This allows Android XMPP Clients to talk XMPP to a jabber instance, and the XMPP host to use libpurple for the other protocol.

But there are no technical solutions around bad governments. The Chinese should push for a Secular Humanist Democratic reform of China.

Re: Support libpurple and Spectrum 2

[easyTree]

omg, China makes western countries look like democracies!

Re:Support libpurple and Spectrum 2

[Gussington]

While i think the removal of the repressive Chinese Government from power is the only real solution to all this.

Solution to what? WhatsApp is a product of the Zuckerberg tyranny, so this could be considered a good thing to a lot of people.
..

Re:Support libpurple and Spectrum 2

[lwmv]

Reform is not free. It need tons of money. They'd be happy if you guys could donate a couple of bucks to support them.

Re: Support libpurple and Spectrum 2

[crimson tsunami]

Yes, the most famous story about Chinese oppression is about a guy not getting run over by a tank...

Comment

[Pensioner79]

Make your network and do not worry about locks. Your internet pager http://helpsetup.ru/internet/b...

Re: That's because China is a LUDDITE country!

[easyTree]

I'd prefer updates about hosts files.

Re:This is the future of the Internet

[presidenteloco]

That is, until the power of conventional states is reduced to relative insignificance by bottom-up self-organizing blockchain-based economies and operations.

Re:That's because China is a LUDDITE country!

[Ritz_Just_Ritz]

Actually, it has a lot more to do with government officials being enriched by local companies who want to compete with whatsapp. Pay off enough cronies and their service gets blocked. They've had the tech to block it for a while. This has happened time and again to popular non-Chinese internet services and applications. Why ascribe to "luddite" behavior what can more easily explained by plain old greed and corruption.

Re:Blocked at the border

[presidenteloco]

...will be blocked at the border ...until we get our own satellite, balloon, and solar-powered-drone internet using hard-to-jam ultra-wide-band communications
(or something along those lines.)

China is going bad under Xi Jinping

[aberglas]

He has been suppressing all forms of criticism and descent, of which this is just a small part. He is aggressively using technology to control people. And they even recently released a document recently denouncing civil society and democratic values.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

The US fears them because the US owes China too much money. (Clinton talked about upsetting one's banker. Trump just doesn't know where China is.)

The Australians fear China because China owes Australia too much money. They are by far our largest trading partner.

The Europeans are incapable of any action at all without the US leading the way.

The North Korea crisis (I use the word carefully) is all about China. Yet nobody dares to say so. That could end very badly.

But the real fear is that China now has a large middle class. They cannot go back to the cultural revolution of th 1960s. When their economy stops growing at a fantastic rate (which it must) people will demand reform. Totalitarianism results in incompetence, nepotism and corruption. If Xi et. al. push back, there will eventually be trouble. Big trouble. By which time it will be too late for us to have any influence.

Incidentally, Chinese students are a major Australian export to China. But the Chinese recently warned that those undertaking an Australian education would become "incompatible with Chinese values". Chilling stuff.

Re:China is going bad under Xi Jinping

[Gussington]

Totalitarianism results in incompetence, nepotism and corruption.

You say that as if Democracy doesn't? Bush, Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Trump, Trump Trump, Trump, Kushner...

Re:China is going bad under Xi Jinping

[aberglas]

I get sick of people whingeing saying that we are just as bad as the totalitarian regime like China (or N Korea!). There is no comparison.

Sure, we only get the politicians we deserve. But we get to vote them out when they run too far off the rails. We get liberties unknown to the Chinese.

Our system is far from perfect. But at least we can all help to improve it.

Re:China is going bad under Xi Jinping

[aberglas]

The fight against corruption is largely a fight against Xis enemies. Most of the princelings are corrupt to various degrees. The ones that get prosecuted are the ones that could threaten Xi.

For all its many faults, democracy does get rid of bad governments peacefully. It is a serious error to underestimate its importance.

Re:China is going bad under Xi Jinping

[aberglas]

So, imagine what would happen in the US if there were no elections at all. The senior politicians got to choose who the junior ones would be. Of course they would all look after each other's interests.

You cannot freely express any opinion in the Communist party if you want to stay. And I do not even think you can join it without sponsorship. It is totally hierarchical, everybody needs approval from above. Sure there are factions, but it is not in the least bit free or fair. And Xi is actively purging members that have liberal views.

Cherish and protect our open, democratic values. They will be even more important as computers become ever more powerful, and capable of concentrating power.

Re:China is going bad under Xi Jinping

[rerogo]

Sure, it created high speed rail, but it also seized a bunch of landowners' land. In some moral systems, this is completely unforgivable, regardless of any benefit derived.

Positive outcomes are in the eye of the beholder.

Re:China is going bad under Xi Jinping

[antifoidulus]

Trump talked big game about China during the election, but has done absolutely nothing about China in the 8 months he has been president. Well, I guess thats not totally true he withdrew from the TPP which was formed mostly as a bulwark against China. Not really sure what he is doing, could be that Jared is making too much money off of China, could be that Trump needs Chinese money to fund more irresponsible tax cuts, could be because he is profoundly lazy, probably a combination of those factors.

Re:China is going bad under Xi Jinping

[aberglas]

If you want you can join the Democrats or Republicans. Just pay your fee. Turn up to meetings. Vote on local issues. If you can convince other grass roots members of a cause you can make changes. No senior member of the party has to approve your membership. You are allowed to disagree.

To join the Chinese Communist Party you have to be selected by the committee. Only one in ten applicants are accepted. They want to see that you are a hard worker and fairly smart, but also that you will do what you are told and not cause trouble. But if you are admitted, then that goes on your CV and makes it much easier to get good jobs. If you do not get in you will soon hit a glass ceiling and be excluded from any senior role.

Completely different from western countries.

Here is a nice article on some personal experiences of joining the party.
https://daily.jstor.org/commun...

Re:China is going bad under Xi Jinping

[aberglas]

I should add that of course in China there are factions and court intrigue. But it is within a closed, secretive, group.

Re:China is going bad under Xi Jinping

[Gussington]

Our system is far from perfect. But at least we can all help to improve it.

So the latest election improved things in your opinion?

Re:China is going bad under Xi Jinping

[Agripa]

I get sick of people whingeing saying that we are just as bad as the totalitarian regime like China (or N Korea!). There is no comparison.

Sure, we only get the politicians we deserve. But we get to vote them out when they run too far off the rails. We get liberties unknown to the Chinese.

Our system is far from perfect. But at least we can all help to improve it.

My standard of comparison is not "we are better than China".

Re:China is going bad under Xi Jinping

[Gussington]

I get sick of people whingeing saying that we are just as bad as the totalitarian regime like China (or N Korea!).

Your statement was that "Totalitarianism results in incompetence, nepotism and corruption", I merely pointed out that you get this with Democracy too, as demonstrated by the last 30 years of US politics.
Totalitarianism has a lot of bad side effects, but incompetence, nepotism and corruption is hardly unique to it.

Re:Hate to go to the Godwin thing here, but...

[Luckyo]

They already won the game long ago. Now, they're just mopping up the tiny remains of the resistance. WeChat has long crushed all competitors in the WhatsApp's field in China.

Re: own satellite

[slashrio]

...which will be declared illegal and shot down (or up, out of orbit).

Re:More Importantly...

[slashrio]

I'm surprised to hear that some people actually *did* pay $1 for a text message.
What an idiots.

Insinuating Text = SMS and web stream = phonecall

[vlueboy]

IIRC regular folks originally did word-of-mouth marketing for Whatsapp as an SMS-replacer in the third world. Like other proprietary TCP IP services, it can do much more, but I hate the confusion of insituating that web streams and messengers ARE texts and phonecalls. One crucial factor in the confusion is the growing association of accounts with address books and phone numbers (though the system doesn't use phone lines and is a veiled trick to gain marketing data in the guise of simplicity)

Web companies intentionally muddling the waters to sell something as a functional equivalent of a familiar classic tech often contribute to very confused users. Web giants don't usually have to deal with phone or email tech support.
The result is that when something goes wrong, *we* are the ones stuck figuring out how to help friends find missing messages... or explaining in non-technical terms why a [direct] call to someone via their OS's address book did get charged as pricey long distance call by their ISP instead of connecting through the intended TCP Whatsapp or Facebok "call"

These "texts" are not SMS

"Internet-based messaging services" offered by Facebook, Wechat, Whatsapp and other services should legally be prevented from being called "texting". Before shooting me down, consider why technical users today never call Slack messages (or IRC, or ICQ, or AOL chats) "texts." Android 6+ now allow awareness and blocking of attempts by Facebook and the like to provide one-stop-shop communication, but the accumulated damage to the popular understanding of telco communications vs. proprietary smartphone offerings is already extensive, and likely irreversible.

Re:That's because China is a LUDDITE country!

[allcoolnameswheretak]

What I don't understand is how all this shutting out of non-Chinese tech companies doesn't count as protectionism that goes against WTO rules, of which China is a member.
The original motivation might have been censorship, but it is also a convenient way of boosting the domestic tech industry by keeping competition out.
I thought stuff like this is exactly why the WTO was devised in the first place. Why is China not sanctioned for these actions?

No suprise but...

[ZeRu]

No surprise when something like this comes from China, but here in Croatia our traffic minister wanted to ban the Uber app (because just banning the Uber service isn't enough when you're a clueless luddite moron). He didn't gave any info how he's going to enforce the ban - even if local ISPs were forced to block the app everyone would be able to download it through VPNs.

Re:More Importantly...

[Maritz]

What is Whatsapp, and who really gives a shit?

We're supposed to give a fuck that you're so ignorant you don't know what whatsapp is?

Do you always pipe up to tell everyone in earshot that you don't know stuff? How's that working out for you?

Re:China is a hell hole

[Maritz]

Brilliant fucking plan mate, it's not as if they have their own nukes, is it? For your sake, I hope you're 12 or so.