Slashdot Mirror


A Fourth Gravitational Wave Has Been Detected (theguardian.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: Astronomers have made a new detection of gravitational waves and for the first time have been able to trace the shape of ripples sent through spacetime when black holes collide. The announcement, made at a meeting of the G7 science ministers in Turin, marks the fourth cataclysmic black-hole merger that astronomers have spotted using Ligo, the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory. The latest detection is the first to have also been picked up by the Virgo detector, located near Pisa, Italy, providing a new layer of detail on the three dimensional pattern of warping that occurs during some of the most violent and energetic events in the universe.

A tiny wobble in the signal, picked up by Ligo's twin instruments and the Virgo detector on 14 August, could be traced back to the final moments of the merger of two black holes about 1.8 billion years ago. The black holes, with masses about 31 and 25 times the mass of the sun, combined to produce a newly spinning black hole with about 53 times the mass of the sun. The remaining three solar masses were converted into pure energy that spilled out as deformations that spread outwards across spacetime like ripples across a pond. Detecting these tiny distortions has required detectors sensitive enough to measuring a discrepancy of just one thousandth of the diameter of an atomic nucleus across a 4km laser beam.
A paper about the latest discovery has been accepted for publication in the journal Physical Review Letters.

67 comments

  1. Great Disturbance in the Force by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    How about, uh, the last 48 hours. Seriously guyz, to the extent that you're able to divulge, what the hell happened? https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/09/27/faulty_data_center_takes_out_sourceforge/ Because we're glad you're back, but we really missed you.

    1. Re:Great Disturbance in the Force by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Because we're glad you're back, but we really missed you.

      You should have used the Slashdot app. The microtransactions for getting mod points are kind of a hassle, but at least you wouldn't have missed all the great news for nerds.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    2. Re:Great Disturbance in the Force by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Funny

      Check the most likely cause of Slashdown:

      [_] Gravity waves
      [_] Hurricane
      [_] Russians
      [_] Trump
      [_] Some dumbass tripped over a cord

    3. Re:Great Disturbance in the Force by slashdot_commentator · · Score: 1

      Gravitational wave??? That's a freaking lame excuse for slashdot to go down!

      --
      There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
    4. Re:Great Disturbance in the Force by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the joke option is always Cowboy Neal...

    5. Re:Great Disturbance in the Force by ArchieBunker · · Score: 2, Funny

      [_] Systemd

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    6. Re:Great Disturbance in the Force by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      Something, something, you insensitive clod.

    7. Re:Great Disturbance in the Force by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fucking cosmic rays.

    8. Re: Great Disturbance in the Force by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sharks. With frickin' lasers!

    9. Re:Great Disturbance in the Force by subk · · Score: 1

      Missing options: [_] Added UTF-8 support quietly [_] Paused to install NSA sniffer

      --
      Now, if you'll excuse me, I have backups to corrupt.
    10. Re:Great Disturbance in the Force by thomst · · Score: 1

      slashdot_commentator commented:

      Gravitational wave??? That's a freaking lame excuse for slashdot to go down!

      First it went down. Then it went up ...

      --
      Check out my novel.
    11. Re:Great Disturbance in the Force by Trax3001BBS · · Score: 1

      How about, uh, the last 48 hours.

      Seriously guyz, to the extent that you're able to divulge, what the hell happened?

      https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/09/27/faulty_data_center_takes_out_sourceforge/

      Because we're glad you're back, but we really missed you.

      Yep, I missed /. I submitted theregister.co.uk article it was linked from their wikipedia entry :) Current status Broken https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... citation led to the article.

    12. Re:Great Disturbance in the Force by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      appity app something hot grits something hosts engine

    13. Re:Great Disturbance in the Force by Z80a · · Score: 3, Funny

      You need the server to actually be able to boot up before getting overloaded.

    14. Re:Great Disturbance in the Force by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      But systemd generally manages to start systemd. Why do you need anything else?

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  2. Possible to surf these waves ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is not the warping they do exactly what is needed for warp drive?

    1. Re:Possible to surf these waves ? by someone1234 · · Score: 2

      Sounds useful, moving one thousandth of the diameter of an atomic nucleus every 2 weeks.

      --
      Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
    2. Re:Possible to surf these waves ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this how Silver Surfer gets around?

    3. Re:Possible to surf these waves ? by mikael · · Score: 1

      The gravity wave moves at the speed of light. By the time it reaches Earth, the displacement is one thousandth of the diameter of an atomic nucleus.

      Makes me wonder why we shouldn't see gravity waves creating refractive distortions in the surrounding space, much the same way that explosions do on Earth

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  3. Test by Templer421 · · Score: 1

    Test, is it working now?

  4. Local Report of find by Trax3001BBS · · Score: 1

    One of the three are here.

    "The gravitational waves were detected on Aug. 14, first at the Livingston, La., observatory. A few thousandths of a second later, they were detected at the Hanford LIGO and shortly after that at the Virgo observatory." http://www.tri-cityherald.com/...

     

    1. Re: Local Report of find by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Time is relative

  5. Puzzled by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I get the idea that spacetime is warped by gravity. What I don't get is how there can be ripples in spacetime. There appear to be people saying that gravity also moves at the speed of light which is how LIGO is finding gravity waves. But if gravity moved at the speed of light, surely Newtonian physics wouldn't work the way it does. E.g. if it took 9 minutes for the sun's gravity to reach Earth, our planet would not be where it is now. Does anyone know how this is possible?

    1. Re:Puzzled by anegg · · Score: 1

      I am not a physicist, so this is just me muddling through, but why do you think that an 8 or 9 minute delay in the gravity force would cause Newtonian physics not to work? If the attractive force due to gravity is constantly in effect, it wouldn't matter where the planet Earth was 8 or 9 minutes prior to its present location, the force would have still been felt. If the force suddenly switched off it would be interesting, because theoretically the planet would continue to orbit for another 8 or 9 minutes, but it would require a sensor much closer to the sun (that could survive the loss of the attractive force, and that could be retrieved and accessed later) with a synchronized clock to show that the event that switched off gravity happened earlier (because no evidence of the event could arrive at planet Earth earlier than the loss of gravity because of the universal speed limit).

    2. Re:Puzzled by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Note that gravity seems to pull the Earth toward the Sun.

      If gravity were acting faster then lightspeed, it would appear to pull us toward where the Sun was several minutes (depending on how ftl gravity was, could be anywhere up to about 500 seconds ago) in the past.

      Do remember that when you look at the Sun, you're not looking at where it is NOW, but where it was when the light was emitted....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    3. Re: Puzzled by Zorpheus · · Score: 2

      Gravity moves at the speed of light. This is one of the reasons why Einstein developed the theory of general relativity. Newton's formulas only work when the speed of gravity doesn't matter. I don't know too much details though.
      What I also wonder is, why do we detect gravitational waves? Are they only moving the matter, but not so much the photons if the laser beam? If they would move everything in the same way it should be quite difficult to detect something. Though I think some theorists said the same until the first detection

    4. Re: Puzzled by spaceman375 · · Score: 3, Informative

      The space that the photons are in is what changes size. To measure it they have two perpendicular "arms" in each detector. When the distance of space changes as a wave goes by, the change in each arm is different; they compare the two and that's when they can detect the ripples.

      --
      On the one hand you take life too seriously, and on the other, you do not take playful existence seriously enough. Seth
    5. Re:Puzzled by hord · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If you acknowledge that space and time are linked by the fact that it takes time to traverse space, it is therefore only logical to conclude that manipulations in space also cause manipulations in time. This is what the gravity waves are and why LIGO detects them the way it does. The shape of space changes which causes a disruption in the timing of laser pulses going down tubes.

      Your example of the Sun and Earth is complicated. Don't view the Sun as a beam simply transmitting gravity to Earth. Gravity waves are radiating outwards in 3D space in all directions at all times. The plane on which the Earth resides looks like an outward moving disc. As each pulse of gravity reaches Earth, it pulls Earth slightly towards the Sun and into the path of other gravity waves that would have been emitted right after the initial one. This process happens over and over and over and what you get is the elliptical orbit that we see today. The angles and speed of transit change as the rate at which the Earth passes through these gravity waves changes and you get an asymmetric version of the underlying phenomena.

    6. Re: Puzzled by hord · · Score: 1

      The gravity waves travel at the same speed as photons so they don't interact. What you record in the experiment is the change in the environment outside a constant stream of photons. Photons are emitted at timed intervals and will either bunch up or spread out at the detectors based on how the detector moved around in relation to the photons over time.

    7. Re: Puzzled by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Newton's formulas only work when the speed of gravity doesn't matter.

      I think more correctly you mean to say "Newton's formulas assume the speed of gravity is instantaneous."

      And over short distances, relative to astrological distances, that's a valid assumption.

      Even over long distances, Newton's formulas mostly work.

    8. Re: Puzzled by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gravity is delayed. The gravitational pull we see from the sun is from where the sun was 8 minutes ago, not where it is now. It happens to come from the same place that we see it, not where it actually is.

    9. Re:Puzzled by AlanObject · · Score: 2

      Don't view the Sun as a beam simply transmitting gravity to Earth. Gravity waves are radiating outwards in 3D space in all directions at all times.

      Well said. I would just add something someone told me once when I was pondering the same question. If the sun instantly disappeared, the Earth would continue in its orbit undisturbed for roughly eight minutes. And, of course, it would continue to be heated and lit for the same time.

    10. Re:Puzzled by GNious · · Score: 1

      Sun is moving at ~200km/s
      It's ~8 light-minutes away
      It's ~1.391 x 10^6 km in diameter

      Conclusion, it's moved ~1/13th of it's diameter

      This is basically invisible if we're in the path (at its pro- or retrograde) ... and also irrelevant when viewing the sun perpendicular to its movement :)

    11. Re: Puzzled by mikael · · Score: 1

      When three solar masses are converted from mass into pure energy (E = m . C^2) , that's a tremendous amount of energy. Mass/Inertia is due to the attraction of the quantum foam to atomic nucleii. When those nucleii disappear and all that mass is converted into photons, the stretched space time contracts and expands.
      Anything with mass (protons, neutrons and electrons) has inertia, while photons don;t have mass/

      Similar to the way tectonic plates creating a tsunami. Imagine the three ends of each detector are beach balls floating on a ocean. So long as the ocean is calm, these will stay in place. Whenever a wave rolls by. the distance between those balls will change.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    12. Re:Puzzled by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Conclusion, it's moved ~1/13th of it's diameter

      ~1/13th of the Sun's diameter is about 4 minutes of arc. Trust me, we can measure things MUCH smaller than 4 minutes of arc with trivial effort. We'd have noticed.

      Also, don't forget that the planet is moving relative to the Sun.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    13. Re:Puzzled by GNious · · Score: 1

      Yup :)

  6. 4? by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

    These are some of the rarest astronomical bodies in the universe and we've already detected 4 of them colliding? Wow maybe they are more common than we thought.

    --

    Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    1. It turns out that the universe is big. Really big. Even the correct word of astronomically big doesn't convey the full meaning of just how big. 4 is not an astronomically big number.

    2. Re:4? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Although the rate of merger observations is indeed higher than previously expected, black hole binaries have been thought likely to be incredibly common for a long time before LIGO and Virgo started observing them.

    3. Re:4? by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

      Thanks

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    4. Re:4? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's really fucking spectacular. Like suddenly having hearing after growing up deaf. This is just the beginning of what's going to be possible. Imagine a network of geostationary satellites measuring these interference patterns... Incoming asteroids? Maybe that sounds beyond the reach of precision, but the same was said about LIGO.

    5. Re: 4? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What makes you think they are rare? They're just hard to see.

  7. NPR (Nation Public Radio) posted a story on this by c8663 · · Score: 1

    NPR (Nation Public Radio) posted a story on this:

              http://www.npr.org/2017/09/27/...

    At the end of the story they said that since it was 2 black holes, it was unlikely that there would be any light from the event. What was interesting, was that they stated that there were unconfined reports of either a neutron star colliding with a black hole or with another neutron star a few days later. If this observation is confirmed, then there is a possibility that light could have been also observed from that event.

  8. Why just recently by rfengr · · Score: 1

    Why has LIGO on recently defected waves if it has been running for many years. Did they do some sort of upgrade?

    1. Re:Why just recently by Scarred+Intellect · · Score: 3, Informative

      The mirrors they had for reflecting the beam back down the tunnel have been SIGNIFICANTLY upgraded. They can measure how much the reflector swings on its pendulum by the impact of said laser itself.

      The Hanford LIGO facility can detect a tractor-trailer moving down I5. The effects of these and any other distortions or disturbances are very similar in nature to the waves they're trying to detect, so much of the early work was spent on identifying these and filtering them out. The mirror upgrades helped. (This all comes from a tour of the facility)

      So, in essence, yes. Upgrades. Physical equipment, sensors, hell, probably even people.

    2. Re:Why just recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There have been several rounds of upgrades, with lots of technology carried over from GEO 600, the test setup in Germany where most of the technology for LIGO and Virgo is developed.

    3. Re:Why just recently by avandesande · · Score: 1

      It takes time to analyze the data properly and write a decent paper about the findings. There are probably a string of observations in the last run but this one was the most interesting because of the Virgo detector being online.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    4. Re:Why just recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >The mirrors they had for reflecting the beam back down the tunnel have been SIGNIFICANTLY upgraded. They can measure how much the reflector swings on its pendulum by the impact of said laser itself.

      When you are using "said X" you should have previously referred to X before. You said beam, not "laser", and laser was implied, not actually said.
      That's still better than people who, in an effort to sound erudite, use "said X" when the object is in fact introduced for the first time.

  9. Shields! SHIELDS!!! by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

    Praxis?

  10. Poor physicists :( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From now on if anything bad related to gravitation happens (people falling down and everything), the italian judges will hold scientists responsible and will prosecute them.

  11. That was a very loud bang by AlanObject · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Did I read it correctly that 3 solar masses were converted to energy? Over what period of time I wonder. Our own sun's total output would not consume all its mass over billions of years.

    How big a blast zone did that leave? I can imagine star systems for light years around could have been burnt, destroying civilizations. Has anyone done the numbers?

    1. Re:That was a very loud bang by tinkerton · · Score: 1

      Well who needs civilization anyway.

    2. Re:That was a very loud bang by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes you read that correctly - 3 SOLAR MASSES were converted into energy, and the timescale is less than 0.1 seconds.
      In the region right around the merger, the shear in space (how much it was shrinking and stretching) from the gravitational waves was ~50% (ie 1km becomes 2km).
      It is awesome!

    3. Re:That was a very loud bang by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      Has anyone done the numbers?

      Yes, bigly. Believe me.
      People say they are the biggest anybody has ever seen.

    4. Re:That was a very loud bang by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How big a blast zone did that leave? I can imagine star systems for light years around could have been burnt, destroying civilizations. Has anyone done the numbers?

      Welcome to the universe, where things happen on a massive scale and nobody is around to give a damn. What do you think a Nebula is other than the left over cloud of smoke from an absolutely enormous event? Millions of light years across? No problem

      It has been known for literally decades that things on this scale exist. In this case, they're confirming yet another of Einstein's predictions, and finding that they can measure things which happened millions of years ago.

      For all of the people who think their own personal god is standing watch over them to keep them out of harms way, the universe is just there, it behaves according to magnificent physical laws, and it doesn't give a crap what happens to you. Of course, all of the religious morons will deny this is true because it violates their idiotic notion of the Earth being only around 6000 years old.

      Life is a series of chemical reactions. And while we can try to find meaning in it, the universe will step on you like a bug. You're just goo on a rock somewhere who thinks the universe is benign and on your side. On astronomical timelines, nothing lasts.

      There's beauty in that understanding -- life is short and tenuous, make the most of it while you can. That we're still confirming stuff Einstein said decades ago is a testament to how much we can try to grasp of this vastness we find ourselves in.

  12. Far Too Slow by tinkerton · · Score: 1

    I just want a Ligo app so that the moment Ligo detects a signal I get notified with a chirp and a vibration, so that I can almost feel the wave as it passes.

  13. Re: Remind me why gravitational waves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Em fluctuations act upon the em field. Grab dluctuations act upon the gravity field. There are 5 fields of force. Learn elementary science man.

  14. BS by snadrus · · Score: 1

    This always happens during times of intensive solar flares.
    I'm thinking the Electric Universe's answer is right.

    --
    Science & open-source build trust from peer review. Learn systems you can trust.
  15. Re:NPR (Nation Public Radio) posted a story on thi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I felt a great disturbance in the Force.
    As if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.