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FCC's Claim That One ISP Counts As 'Competition' Faces Scrutiny In Court (arstechnica.com)

Jon Brodkin reports via Ars Technica: A Federal Communications Commission decision to eliminate price caps imposed on some business broadband providers should be struck down, advocacy groups told federal judges last week. The FCC failed to justify its claim that a market can be competitive even when there is only one Internet provider, the groups said. Led by Chairman Ajit Pai, the FCC's Republican majority voted in April of this year to eliminate price caps in a county if 50 percent of potential customers "are within a half mile of a location served by a competitive provider." That means business customers with just one choice are often considered to be located in a competitive market and thus no longer benefit from price controls. The decision affects Business Data Services (BDS), a dedicated, point-to-point broadband link that is delivered over copper-based TDM networks by incumbent phone companies like AT&T, Verizon, and CenturyLink.

But the FCC's claim that "potential competition" can rein in prices even in the absence of competition doesn't stand up to legal scrutiny, critics of the order say. "In 2016, after more than 10 years of examining the highly concentrated Business Data Services market, the FCC was poised to rein in anti-competitive pricing in the BDS market to provide enterprise customers, government agencies, schools, libraries, and hospitals with much-needed relief from monopoly rates," Phillip Berenbroick, senior policy counsel at consumer advocacy group Public Knowledge said. But after Republicans gained the FCC majority in 2017, "the commission illegally reversed course without proper notice and further deregulated the BDS market, leaving consumers at risk of paying up to $20 billion a year in excess charges from monopolistic pricing," Berenbroick said.

37 of 200 comments (clear)

  1. Fuck Ajit Pai by OverlordQ · · Score: 4, Insightful

    He's just looking out for a job back at Verizon when he's done.

    --
    Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
    1. Re:Fuck Ajit Pai by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2, Informative

      Obama didn't fail, he was the greatest president ever! Fake News!

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    2. Re:Fuck Ajit Pai by GrumpySteen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Considering there are price caps in place where there isn't enough competition and Trump's FCC is the one trying to declare a single provider monopoly to be a competitive market so that they can remove those price caps, this sounds like you're grasping at straws to blame the Obama administration rather than Trump's.

    3. Re:Fuck Ajit Pai by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'll go better than that: fuck the current republicans. fuck them so bad they all get voted out of office next time.

      if america needed an education about what the R's stand for, they sure got one this time around. anything that helps consumers, the R's are blatantly against. (can you cite anything that contradicts this?)

      I realize that slash has been invaded by the R fans (even though as a tech forum, most of us are clearly NOT R-based in our thinking) but before you mod me down, I'd like you to cite an example of where a modern R has stood up for the regular guy and not for the ultra rich and powerful.

      I'm hoping that this tire fire called 'trump admin' really ruins a lot of people; especially those in red states. they need a harsh awakening and a wake-up call. they have been misled and have been guided into voting against their own best interests.

      I wonder if people really will realize this. I hear lots of talk, but when the next election comes, I have a feeling that the reds will forget all this harm that was done to our country and will follow their 'religion' and continue to fund those that work against the common man.

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      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    4. Re:Fuck Ajit Pai by cmdr_klarg · · Score: 2

      There is no better useful idiot than a religious conservative. Who better to believe anything said to them by figures of "authority"?

      You will also see that while most people hate the members of Congress as a whole, THEIR congresscritter is a "good one".

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      THE SOFTWARE, IT NO WORKY!!!
    5. Re:Fuck Ajit Pai by dywolf · · Score: 2

      yes, its obamas fault he left office before he could fix everything.
      its totally not trumps fault for changing things once he took office.

      what kind of moron are you?

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    6. Re:Fuck Ajit Pai by dywolf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      it wont because republicans believe the government is dysfunctional and broken by default.
      when they elect these ass hats who then proceed to break it, they simply reinforce their preexisting ideology (while totally ignoring that they ar the ones that broke it!).
      meanwhile they simultaneously believe that no matter what happens, they themselves will be ok ("my perimeter is secure", "i can take care of myself", "government doesn't benefit me") whilst ignoring everything government actually does for them.

      the republican party is now completely and totally based on delusion and ignorance of reality.

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      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    7. Re:Fuck Ajit Pai by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 2

      Actually, as James Damore showed, there are tons of conservatives in tech. It's just they they're deeply in the closet because they're terrified to out themselves due to a very justified fear of being fired.

      I mean, heck, you're openly supporting ruining these people, No wonder they're hiding.

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      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  2. On what planet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Oh you're not really starving, you can smell your neighbor's dinner from here.

    1. Re:On what planet... by spun · · Score: 5, Funny

      See you don't understand. It's actually harder to compete against imaginary companies. They've got unicorn cavalry and time travelling wizards. How is a real company supposed to compete against unicorn cavalry and time travelling wizards? They can't. We should give those poor monopolist companies a big tax break.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  3. Republican Corruption, what a surprise? by DMJC · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is anyone really surprised by this now? This has been the way of things in America for ages. Democrats aren't even good politicians, just centrist normals. Republicans are so far to the right it's hilariously stupid. America needs a third party and has needed one for years. At least a moderate right party if not a further left party.

    1. Re:Republican Corruption, what a surprise? by JohnFen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      At this point, I'd be happy if we got even a single party that was effective, cared about the nation, wasn't bought off, and wasn't batshit crazy.

    2. Re:Republican Corruption, what a surprise? by spun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Except that's not something you get, it's something you make. Effective, sane, and powerful organizations that fight for the rights of the little guy don't just happen by accident. People have to work really hard to create something like that, and most people are just too lazy, unless their very lives are on the line.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    3. Re:Republican Corruption, what a surprise? by JohnFen · · Score: 2

      that would just about be enough of a platform by itself.

      Not to me, since it doesn't address any of the things on the wish list I stated.

    4. Re:Republican Corruption, what a surprise? by spun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And meanwhile, other people, with far more money and political power, are actively trying to kill off whatever you are trying to build. Then, if you succeed, you will have to actively police your organization forever, to stop the sociopaths from taking over, because all they see is another lever of power.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    5. Re:Republican Corruption, what a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Trump is the 3rd party.

      that's why everyone is throwing such an epic hissyfit.

    6. Re:Republican Corruption, what a surprise? by bobbied · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I totally disagree. Trump is as republican as I am a woman. I can call myself one, even dress like one and in some places even use the women's room, but nothing can biologically make me one.

      Trump ran as a republican only because he would have never won the democratic primary and a third party is a non-starter in our system. He only self identifies as a republican for political convenience, but he's actually very much a democrat on the majority of the issues democrats find important. However, He doesn't care about either side's sacred cows, so they both hate him, while many voters love him for the very same reason.

      The original poster is right, Trump is hated by both sides of the establishment. He's hated by the republicans because he won without their help or approval and isn't beholden to their handlers (those who give them money and keep them in power). He's hated by the democrats simply because he won over the heir apparent. But Trump is Trump....

      --
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    7. Re:Republican Corruption, what a surprise? by Green+Mountain+Bot · · Score: 2

      "A republic, if you can keep it." I worry we cannot.

    8. Re:Republican Corruption, what a surprise? by JohnFen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      He only self identifies as a republican for political convenience, but he's actually very much a democrat

      Trump is no Republican, I agree, but he isn't anything like a Democrat either. Trump only cares about Trump.

      He's hated by the republicans because he won without their help or approval and isn't beholden to their handlers (those who give them money and keep them in power). He's hated by the democrats simply because he won over the heir apparent.

      I don't think any of this is accurate. Trump is hated by Republicans and Democrats for pretty much the same fundamental reason (although Reps and Dems might disagree on the details): he's a threat to the nation.

    9. Re:Republican Corruption, what a surprise? by spun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Let's actually list the things Trump and Republicans agree on:
      1. Tighter immigration control
      2. Less regulation on corporations
      3. Lower taxes for the wealthy
      4. Screw the environment (in case 2 didn't make that clear enough)
      5. Screw the LGBT community
      6. Pander to religious fundamentalists
      7. More military spending
      8. Screw minorities
      9. Keep as many people from voting as possible
      10. Repeal Obamacare and make sure poor people can't get healthcare

      As far as I can tell, that is the entirety of the Republican party platform. How is he not a Republican? What are the actual differences? I'm curious. Because the Republican party is bending over pretty far to ingratiate themselves with Trump, even when he insults them to their faces, and meanwhile Trump is trying to do everything they ask him to do. They are one and the same.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    10. Re:Republican Corruption, what a surprise? by i286NiNJA · · Score: 3, Funny

      Virtually every geopolitical expert in the world disagrees with trump on every issue. His beliefs are all republican propaganda that was intended for the masses and not for internal consumption. He's so wrong that his head almost exploded when he took office and our intelligence services attempted to explain the state of the world to him.
      Not just the CIA and the NSA, his world view is totally incongruent with foreign and private reporting.

    11. Re:Republican Corruption, what a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I will agree that both sides of the establishment don't like him because he's not part of them, and doesn't want to be part of them. He's an outsider to both and they have no power over him and are doing what they can to obstruct him..

      Nope. He's an insider, just a crass and bumbling one. He's gone to the right parties, he went to the right schools, his children went to those schools as well, and they turn their noses up and let him stick around.

      You're confusing Trump's inability to do anything with other people obstructing him. But that's Trump's fault, due to his personal incompetence.

      That is why you hear him called a "loose cannon" because he IS, by their definition.

      No, it's pretty much the definition of anybody who actually served in the military, unlike Mr. Heel Spurs, who didn't.

      Ok, ok, so the actual days of cannon in limbers are way behind, still, some of us know what it's like to fire artillery and the importance of securing them.

      He's got no control, he's not no discipline, he's really that wild and crazy.

      Some people thought it was just an act, a subterfuge, but it was real.

      They have no control of what this guy does.

      No, it's just a matter of not being able to grab the president by the scruff of his neck and spank him, no matter how much he deserves it.

      Now the debate about if he's good or bad for the nation will not be answered here by you and I, not at this point. We are in the midst of the political battle that will be hard fought for the next three to eight years. All sides are throwing all they got, flame throwers, hand grenades and mortar shells into the fray and where you may think your side is winning, nobody really knows how this will end up. Let's wait for the history to be written and we have the benefit of hindsight.

      Why? You aren't. You're already fetishizing him, and determining that you will worship him in all his glory for all time to come.

      You're just scared, because in your heart, you know you're wrong, that no matter how much you pretend otherwise, he'll always be a loose cannon, not because he isn't beholden to the powers that hold sway, but because he simply can't help himself.

      He doesn't piss himself because he means to show how much he doesn't care, it's because he really can't figure out how to control his bladder.

      But go ahead, praise the vintage. Savor the flavor.

    12. Re:Republican Corruption, what a surprise? by spun · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So human nature is immutable, and what is currently true about the species will always be true? We're too lazy for direct democracy, and always will be, even with networked computers?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    13. Re:Republican Corruption, what a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ... fight for the rights of the little guy ...

      Most countries call this "the government" but the USA enabled union-bashing by dismissing government-employed strikers, enabled child-bashing by removing truth-in-advertising, enabled welfare-bashing by cutting healthcare and unemployment services, abandons the weak via 'tough on crime' and 'work for the dole' policies, refuses to engage its single-buyer advantage.

      Then, congress-critters deliberately contaminate politics by claiming privately-owned is superior to government-owned, corporations have more rights than individuals, minor parties have no power. US congress also banned socialism, repeatedly enacted laws reducing the power of customers and employees, encouraged money in politics.

      ... most people are just too lazy ...

      That's part of it. The main reason is, so many voters believe the propaganda that they demand more corruption. As long as less than 4% of the population stand and fight the corruption, that is, join the swing-vote, the people will lose.

    14. Re:Republican Corruption, what a surprise? by i286NiNJA · · Score: 2

      What has to happen before I can post that trump's a failure and not expect you to contest it?

    15. Re: Republican Corruption, what a surprise? by i286NiNJA · · Score: 2

      The notion that an incompetent real-estate developer could successfully untangle our globalized society even as king of the USA is laughable and Trump's situation is more complicated than that.

      I get why some people voted for him but anyone still on the bandwagon at this point is totally delusional.

  4. Drain the swamp by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Led by Chairman Ajit Pai, the FCC's Republican majority voted in April of this year to eliminate price caps in a county if 50 percent of potential customers "are within a half mile of a location served by a competitive provider."

    Oh that seems fair. Not "served by a competitive provider" but rather, "within a half mile of a location served by a competitive provider".

    Which party is doing this shit again?

    Led by Chairman Ajit Pai, the FCC's Republican majority voted in April

    Oh, right.

    But after Republicans gained the FCC majority in 2017, "the commission illegally reversed course without proper notice and further deregulated the BDS market, leaving consumers at risk of paying up to $20 billion a year in excess charges from monopolistic pricing," Berenbroick said.

    Now who's the fucking moron?

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    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:Drain the swamp by OverlordQ · · Score: 2

      And before people go "But he was an Obama nomination" it was Mitch fucking McConnell that recommended him.

      --
      Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
  5. Nobody competes with themselves by cyberchondriac · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When is a monopoly not a monopoly? Why, when it's a monopoly, apparently.

    This is beyond idiotic and dovetails nicely into the recent news that Comcast and other ISPs have decided that Americans "pay too little" for their broadband, which is an outrageous claim. Maybe we pay too little for road access too, why not just make all roads toll roads?

    http://www.fiercecable.com/cab...

    --

    Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
  6. Guns Vs. Armies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    One of rather many flaws in modern American conservatist thought is the idea that because someone has a freedom that they are using to crush someone else, that this is OK, because in theory the other person could spend their life building up the same resources to crush the other guy.

    It's the same logic as with gun freedoms - even the most abject set of mass murders with guns is seen as socially acceptable in aggrigate, because in theory, a 'good' person could have popped up and shot the mass murderers with a gun also - therefore, it's no problem. Even with words mouthed towards mental illness, decade over decade, these same politicians reduce funding for those same mental health issues, AND promote legislation to make it easier for those same mentally ill people to get guns.

    Same here - they mouth words at how bad monopolies are, but put forth legislation and appoint people that makes it easier to form monopolies, and use them to ruin lives on a continuous basis.

    And no, you can't fight against this with individual action - monopolies when they form tend to by definition lock up a crucial resources that prevents you from fighting against them on an individual level. And modern 'conservative' ideology is for the same arbitration systems that prevent you from using the court to fix it, along with countless laws to shelter resources from any victory you could achieve.

    1. Re:Guns Vs. Armies by dave420 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's one problem with the "guns protect against tyranny" thing - the armed forces. If they're against the populace, then there's no amount of guns in private hands which can beat them. If they're on the side of the populace, there's no need for the guns, as the armed forces have theirs. Ask soldiers who've returned from Iraq and Afghanistan which they feared more - locals with guns, or locals with explosives.

  7. Re:We suck for allowing this by EndlessNameless · · Score: 3, Informative

    No one is doing a thing about it other than going wahhh wahh wahh.

    No one except the President can do anything about it. Pai is appointed, not elected.

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    According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
  8. What about the precedent of one Mr Ray-Jay Johnson by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    You can call him Ray _or_ you can call him Jay. Surely this must mean competition.

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  9. Re:Sad and sick by spun · · Score: 2

    I'm not sure Pai disbelieves this. Ask any smart-ish libertarian how they propose to regulate natural monopolies, and they will say they don't need to because of the potential competition. Any monopoly that abuses it's power too much will prompt people to technologically innovate their way out of the monopoly situation (see: canals, trains) or simply start some competition, and damn the first mover advantage. It's a BS argument, of course, but I think a lot of them really believe it.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  10. Diving into the piranha bowl by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 2

    At the risk of disturbing what is clearly an exceptionally robust echo chamber on this topic, here's my take:

    If the FCC is fixing prices at an artificially low level because there's only one provider in an area, there's zero incentive for a second provider to engage in the capital expenditure to start to service that area. The fiat prices make it impossible for a newcomer to recoup the cost of buildout. Nobody is going to sign up for that, and the monopoly will continue.

    Removing the price caps may be temporarily painful, but in the long haul someone is going to spin out that last half mile when there's a proper incentive to do so. (And the higher the incumbent jacks prices, the richer that incentive gets, so getting too greedy just slits their throat faster.) You then have multiple providers that will naturally compete on price to get more market share and pay down their capex faster. And if the incumbent lowers prices enough to disincentivize the other provider from laying that last piece of wire, the customers win that way as well. If you were talking about one provider in the entire city, that might be concerning. But having at least one other provider within half a mile completely changes the calculus in my view.

    Very happy to have a thoughtful discussion about this. Flamethowers can save their keystrokes.

  11. Re:Maybe by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2

    I'd almost agree that one ISP could count as competition, but that's missing the major problem with the scenario. In those markets, you have the Cable ISP with great speeds, high price, and unrealistic data caps. The "competition" is usually a Telco ISP that has crappy speeds, average price, and no data caps.

    As I understand markets (I am NOT an economist, so if you are one, check me): Even if the two competitors were comparable, two is not enough for market forces to push prices down toward cost-plus-modest-return. Three is iffy and you need four before it's close to certain.

    With only one, maximum profit is achieved by raising prices until anything higher will lose more from people who decided to do without than it gains from people who stick around and pay more.

    With two, maximum profit is achieved by adjusting prices until the customers are split evenly and ramping them up until, again, further price hikes lose more than gain. This is a "duopoly". It prices like a cartel. But no back-channel collusion is required. The price signals alone are enough to keep the players in sync and even drive toward the optimum.

    With several competitors the maximum profit would still be "split the customers fairly and charge all the traffic will bear" - a cartel. But the more players you have, the more you need communication among them to keep the customer base distributed and the prices in sync. Without it, a player who is being squeezed out (with too small a share of the customers) can drop his prices and gain more by improving market share than he loses by the sale price. This can get a price war going, shake out the weak players, and stabilize at cost plus enough profit that several players (three or more) survive.

    With three strong players the market MIGHT be stable for a ong while at the pricey cartel-like point without actual collusion. But with four or more it tends to collapse into the consumer-friendly state unless there's an actual cartel.

    (Variants include providing a degraded product at a lower price point. But that's iffy, more complicated to discus, and doesn't really change the "two is about as bad as one, three is iffy, you want four or more" rule of thumb.)

    Unfortunately, the government (composed more of lawyers and bureaucrts than businessmen) considers two to be "competition". And that's built into the FCC rules at a number of points. (For instance, the early cellphone channel allocations, which allowed only two companies in an area, or the "One telco wireline ISP and one cable ISP is competition" thing that led to the telco/cable duopolies.)

    So now "competition" is supposed to include two of which one is a threat of a hypothetical competitor?

    Seems to me the court should insist that there be a minimum of four non-hypothetical competitors in a market before they let the FCC treat the market as "competitive".

    --
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  12. Re:Sad and sick by spun · · Score: 2

    I've looked at history, and the harm done by monopolies is never offset by the benefits. Technological change doesn't happen quickly enough to mitigate the effects of shitty, overbearing monopolies. I've been over this a million times with libertarians and they haven't managed to change my mind, even with arguments that weren't just off the cuff, half assed attempts.

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    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton