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This Is the Week Wall Street Went Nuts Over Cryptocurrencies (bloomberg.com)

Wall Street banks that weren't already on the bitcoin bandwagon appear to be piling on, or least eyeing seats, after the cryptocurrency surged to all-time highs this week on the way to $6,000. From a report: Analysts are working to keep up with demand from clients for information. UBS and Citigroup published extensive explainers on blockchain technology, while senior executives at JPMorgan Chase warmed to the cryptocurrency during the bank's third-quarter earnings call. The digital currency has risen more than fivefold after trading at less than $1,000 as recently as December, breaking the $5,000 mark this week and already targeting the next thousand-dollar level. Throughout its rise, the cryptocurrency shrugged off tighter regulations, feuding factions and warnings from the likes of JPMorgan's Jamie Dimon of fraud and an eventual price collapse.

180 comments

  1. Bubble! by XXongo · · Score: 4, Insightful
    http://www.investopedia.com/te...

    What is a 'Bubble'
    A bubble is an economic cycle characterized by rapid escalation of asset prices followed by a contraction. It is created by a surge in asset prices unwarranted by the fundamentals of the asset M and driven by exuberant market behavior.

    1. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If you shout "bubble" a million times, there's a good chance you might be right, once.

    2. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you ignore obvious evidence of rapid price inflation in a market caused by people investing with the hopes of cashing out, there's a good chance you might be wrong every time.

    3. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If there is a commodity whose trading value increases five-fold in under a year, and you shout “bubble” (just once), there is a good chance you might be right once.

      Any questions?

    4. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      People are buying Bitcoin mainly because they think it's a way to make money fast. That is obviously not sustainable.

    5. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then put your money where your mouth is, and convert all your assets to cryptocurrency. I might toss a quarter in your cup one day.

    6. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A broken clock is right twice a day. If I stand to lose several thousand dollars depending on the time of day, you better believe I'm going to check if it's one of those two times.

    7. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Indeed.

      A bitcoin is not a lump of gold. You can't actually do anything with it. Much like fiat money; its value is entirely a matter of agreement.

      There is no good reason to believe that the value will continue to increase or hold steady over time. It, of course, might, but we are speculating entirely about human agreement, and not about a natural process of resource consumption.

    8. Re:Bubble! by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You can't categorically declare that Bitcoin's price is "unwarranted by the fundamentals of the asset". It's a new asset type and its fundamentals are yet to be determined. We're still feeling out Bitcoin's ultimate utility and long-term viability. Surges like this are inevitable.

      We've gone through this process several times already. Each time people have declared it a "bubble", and yet... while each surge has been followed by a "crash", the average price after each crash has been significantly higher than the average price before the preceding surge. This was true at $2, $30, $200, $1200, and $4000. The long-term trend has been toward gradually increasing prices and less volatility.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    9. Re: Bubble! by sl6551 · · Score: 1

      Don't call it a bubble until it meets it's terms, i.e. bitcoin needs to collapse in value then can be classified as a bubble. Surge in price alone isn't enough nor saying the fundamentals aren't there, since clearly many would argue quite the opposite.

    10. Re:Bubble! by JeffSh · · Score: 1

      the post all-time-high "crash" isnt a "crash" because it's a profit taking exercise that gets the currency in the hands of new adopters.

      The people who held the currency before the spike realize gains and cash them out. This causes a retraction as new adopters buy in, and then before long its time for a new series of gains, and then profit taking occurrs again.

      this will happen multiple times as bitcoin has the potential to become a world wide relevant and daily traded store of value.

    11. Re:Bubble! by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      If there is an IPO whose trading value increases five-fold in under a year, and you shout “bubble” (just once), there is a good chance you might be right once. Just once.

      Any questions?

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    12. Re: Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's a good way to grow money off the naive though. Buy, wait a short time and resell. Don't invest too much because I agree it will collapse but might as well ride the bubble for a bit. #capitalism

    13. Re:Bubble! by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      A bitcoin is not a lump of gold. You can't actually do anything with it.

      And what, exactly, were you planning to do with a lump of gold that would make it worth what you paid for it? Or do I want to know?

    14. Re:Bubble! by Lisandro · · Score: 1

      There is no good reason to believe that the value will continue to increase or hold steady over time.

      There actually is: Bitcoin is a fixed amount currency, with only about 21 million BTC available. If it popularity increases prices will go nowhere but up.

    15. Re:Bubble! by Jzanu · · Score: 1

      Company IPO only happens once, so if he is right just once then you just bought a useless thing more overvalued than Enron.

    16. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Make microchips. Priceless Jewelry. To name two.

    17. Re:Bubble! by Lisandro · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Gold is not valuable because it is tangible; it is valuable because it is scarce. So is Bitcoin, BTW. Much like gold, as a currency it is inherently deflationary.

    18. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its actually not a fixed currency. Its a controlled currency which is even stated on its Wikipedia page. Its not like gold rather more like diamonds. And if that fails and you need more BTC just setup another currency / block chain I.E Dodgecoin.

      No the only people who value it are the technologically challenged.

    19. Re:Bubble! by Lisandro · · Score: 1

      "Controlled"? What the fuck are you talking about?

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    20. Re:Bubble! by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Neither use of which comes close to making it worth $1300 an ounce. You can make breathtaking jewelry out of base metals--it's only "priceless" because of its gold content. Its use in microchips is severely limited because it's so hard to justify the cost of using it there.

    21. Re:Bubble! by Jzanu · · Score: 1

      Bitcoin and all the virtual currencies have no utility except as units for value exchange, primarily from the anonymitiy enabling money laundering and extortion amongst other financial crimes. Those are problems for governments and police until you become one of the victims. Before that, the problem for any investors is that that value isn't backed by anything, not even a promise from an authority with tax powers and an army. Bitcoin is an algorithmically generated string of bits, which may be unique temporarily but is subject to rapid depreciation with quantum computing or even heavy parallel computing.

    22. Re: Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not accurate.

      It's common in a bubble for the bulk of the trading to be between people who don't care about the fundamentals and if asked they will justify their choices based on the price trend.

      If everyone based their trading solly on their estimate of the fundamentals tehre would be fewer and smaller bubbles.

    23. Re:Bubble! by Lisandro · · Score: 2

      Well, no, not really. Disclaimer: i'm not yet quite sold on the concept of crytpocurrencies, but i've been studying them for a while.

      Bitcoin and other digital currencies do have utility and their value (specially in the case of Bitcoin) is derived from scarcity and the effort required to "mine" new currency. The main problem with BTC is that right now its market is minuscule and limited almost exclusively, as you explain, to value exchange. Relatively small operations can make its USD value change dramatically overnight; BTC is volatile because it is not widely used, and it is not widely used because of its volatility. I don't know if it will ever overcome this issue.

      Other than that, the design behind Bitcoin is technically very sound - not only in terms of crypto but also economics. Whoever came up with it did its homework.

    24. Re:Bubble! by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      Priceless jewelry

      There is no such thing. Find any jewel on the planet, it has a price value attached to it.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    25. Re:Bubble! by Jzanu · · Score: 1

      What happens when the cost of the computing resources required to generate more falls below the marginal selling price of a bitcoin? Its value starts a strictly decreasing spiral downward, along with all the other ones and none will ever recover value. Then any remaining holders are left holding empty virtual paper bags. This outcome isn't far off in practice certainly less than a decade, and likely just a few years if that.

      Then there are other systemic issues due to the origin of its value in illegal activities making it target for not just every imaginable regulation but making the holding itself illegal and subject to sentencing and fine/prison. This does happen and is targeted at stopping those illegal activities. For instance, try crossing an international border with a million in undeclared USD and see what happens.

    26. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a question. How is this a counter argument? It sounds like we are in agreement, so I really don't understand why you felt the need to reply with what you did.

    27. Re:Bubble! by Lisandro · · Score: 2

      What happens when the cost of the computing resources required to generate more falls below the marginal selling price of a bitcoin?

      Nothing more than someone gaining money easily, but we'll likely never hit that point. The amount of BTC available for mining is fixed; by next year over 80% of it will already be mined. A conservative estimate is that the last block will be mined in 2140 (by virtue of the block reward halving frequency every four years), but it is posed to happen way before. Right now a new block is mined every 9% in average, which is already 10% faster than the estimate.

      Then there are other systemic issues due to the origin of its value in illegal activities making it target for not just every imaginable regulation but making the holding itself illegal and subject to sentencing and fine/prison. This does happen and is targeted at stopping those illegal activities. For instance, try crossing an international border with a million in undeclared USD and see what happens.

      You can cross an international border with a million USD in undeclared bank assets and no one will ever know. BTC is the exact same in that regard.

      Now, i agree that the legality of cryptocurrencies is a big question mark and i have no idea how this will evolve in the future. In general governments don't like what they can't control nor tax.

    28. Re:Bubble! by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 2

      Bitcoin is a fixed amount currency, with only about 21 million BTC available. If it popularity increases prices will go nowhere but up.

      And that _if_ is the rub. If it becomes more popular you are indeed correct. If it doesn't then it's useless. As others have noted bitcoin is just a different flavor of Fiat currency - it has no intrinsic value. I

    29. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Technologically challenged? Are you serious? Most of the early adopters were anything but tech challenged. I get it, you don;t like it. But your analysis is so far from the truth is laughable.

      Bubble? probably, but it does not look like it is going to burst anytime soon. Until it does I'll continue to make money off it.

    30. Re:Bubble! by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Gold is valuable because unlike most other versions of matter, is very difficult to corrupt and fairly rare.

      Gold will remain after fires, earthquakes, floods .... It is slow to corrode (unlike silver)

      It basically just outlasts people and is difficult to create or destroy which makes it very nice "fiat" currency. The down side is it is very heavy and difficult to move in quantities. Italian Job Physics not withstanding.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    31. Re:Bubble! by Gilgaron · · Score: 1

      Its fundamental worth is less than a Groupon. And unlike something like gold that you can make things out of even if a pure gold meteor crashed down and increased supply by some crazy amount, the stuff is all worthless once somebody builds a better calculator.

    32. Re: Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bitcoin is artificially scarce.

    33. Re:Bubble! by Lisandro · · Score: 2

      In all fairness, nothing has intrinsic value. Not even gold.

    34. Re: Bubble! by Lisandro · · Score: 1

      Bitcoin is artificially scarce.

      Yes, it is designed that way. Its artificial scarcity is intrinsic - you cannot just switch it off.

    35. Re:Bubble! by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2

      Bitcoin has intrinsic value above nominal fiat currencies, in that it is not influenced by central banking authorities or government programs that devalue currency. This makes it ... deflationary in nature, and hence the pricing spike.

      The primary value in our current Fiat currency is that it is credit based value because it is inflationary. It is better to spend a dollar today, than save it for a marginal return that might not match the inflationary pressure on that currency. It is why most wealth is not maintained in currency form, but rather assets that increase in value faster than inflation.

      It is my opinion, that the combination of inflationary pressure on nominal fiat currency, and the deflationary pressure on cryptocurrencies like BitCoin, are both being reflected in the nominal currency to Bitcoin exchange rate. I am also sure that some of that is indeed "bubble" valuation. The question is, two fold, when is the bubble going to burst, and what is the proper current valuation of Bitcoin, relative to nominal currencies.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    36. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Visa and the all the credit card companies have no utility except as units for value exchange, primarily from the monthly loan shark rate.

      "Utility as a unit of value exchange" is synonymous with a Monetary System. That's what they do.

      Bitcoin does have utility for international trade without any ties to a particular nation or establishment, which coincidentally also makes it useful to the nefarious actors. But it also has utility as a currency that's free from direct government manipulation, but as it's WAY more volatile with such a small user base, and everyone speculating, that hardly matters.

      What's funny is that Bitcoin doesn't have anonymity, and you have to pay a mixer exchange that promises they're not logging who pays them.

      But as an uncontrollable distributed currency... of course the governments are going to fight it.

      but is subject to rapid depreciation with quantum computing or even heavy parallel computing.

      Eh, not really. There's a built in diminishing return on bit-coin mining. The purpose of that is to:

      A) Reward early adopters by literally giving them coins

      B) Make a limited pool of coins. There will be 21 million coins. 16 million coins have been mined thus far.

      C) Make an easy transition to people crunching the blockchain for pay. Yes, eventually you'll have to pay someone to have your bitcoin transactions go through, just like you pay VISA. Maybe more, maybe less.

      So the supply side WILL deprecate it's value.... a known amount ~23... over the next 30 years. With a massive breakthrough in computing power, that will happen sooner.

    37. Re:Bubble! by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

      Priceless jewelry

      There is no such thing. Find any jewel on the planet, it has a price value attached to it.

      What is the price of the crown jewels of England?

      For that matter, what is the price of the Hope Diamond?

      Things do not have a price unless they are available to be sold.

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    38. Re:Bubble! by mysidia · · Score: 2

      What happens when the cost of the computing resources required to generate more falls below the marginal selling price of a bitcoin?

      Chances are the people who bought those resources Already made their profit, because they did the calculations.
      The marginal cost of continuing to operate that hardware is very small though, particularly in certain parts of China where they get free electricity.

      At the point it becomes non-profitable to CONTINUE to operate bought and paid for miners, they either RAISE THE BAR FOR TRANSACTION FEES, so users pay a little more, or shut off, and the hashrate goes down ---- and eventually profitability of the miners increases, so it's self-correcting.

    39. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except there are companies seriously looking at mining asteroids that would devalue all of the world's gold (and other even rarer materials) to be worth pennies. Now not likely minable in our lifetime, but eventually, if markets are similar, it would be worth even a 100B trip to get one because they are worth trillions of dollars.

      So, gold is valuable now, but it won't be in the future. Also, if the world were in rubbles, and food and water is scarce, gold would be meaningless in comparison to water and food. survival > fiat capability

    40. Re:Bubble! by mysidia · · Score: 1

      A conservative estimate is that the last block will be mined in 2140

      Not the last block.... the last block that pays out a direct reward. After that last block, mining is subsidized by the transaction fees alone.

    41. Re:Bubble! by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Cryptocurrency also has all these advantages--it too is very difficult to corrupt, is fairly rare, and will remain after natural disasters. It even avoids the downside of being heavy.

    42. Re:Bubble! by Jzanu · · Score: 1

      Only by assuming that demand is constant, which it isn't. Demand is price sensitive, and everything has a life cycle with dead end.

    43. Re:Bubble! by Jzanu · · Score: 0

      When the early adopters are drug dealers and pimps and russian oligarchs I'd prefer to put them all in prison forever, not participate in a system that rewards them.

    44. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My personal fingernail clippings are very scarce. But they are worthless since no one desires them.

      The moment people realize the Bitcoin is simply a shared delusion then we will see who the greatest fool of investing lore is, exactly.

    45. Re:Bubble! by mysidia · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It is why most wealth is not maintained in currency form, but rather assets that increase in value faster than inflation.

      Perhaps.... but imagine a world with a deflationary currency. In order for businesses to persuade you to invest in their business or their debts, the bar for investing will be a much greater return --- because the business will have to increase in value faster or pay in interest a rate of interest you expect to be greater than the rate at which the deflationary currency increases in value, thus the cost of capital will be high, and businesses will be more responsible and careful with $$$ they spend not to waste it, Whereas with an inflationary currency it is almost a "Given", that tangible commodities and businesses will become worth more currency over time.

    46. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No they are not. You create new ones every month.

      Plus your fingernails, unlike bitcoin or gold, don't degrade over time.

    47. Re:Bubble! by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Somebody, somewhere, has a price listed for those items. Are they insured? Check their value there.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    48. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Perhaps.... but imagine a world with a deflationary currency.

      No need, just read a book. Until the mid-thirties the US had one with the gold standard.

    49. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're quibbling like a moron.

    50. Re:Bubble! by MangoCats · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Gold is very valuable because people have, throughout the past many hundreds of years, considered it very valuable. The fact that it is hard to mine, relatively easy to refine and store, etc. does help, but in the end the value of gold comes down to people's willingness to pay for it - and that willingness to pay for it has much more to do with its historical value than its current and future intrinsic worth, it's just a financial investment.

      Bitcoins have negative intrinsic worth, but they've managed to hang on as the "cybercurrency of choice" even while they are hardly differentiable from dozens, maybe hundreds of alternate blockchain based cybercurrencies. The only thing propping up bitcoin is people's willingness to continue paying for it and mining it. It's worse than betting on Coke or Pepsi. But, then again, plenty of people got stinking filthy rich by investing in Coke, or Pepsi.

    51. Re:Bubble! by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      Gold is not valuable because it is tangible; it is valuable because it is scarce. So is Bitcoin, BTW. Much like gold, as a currency it is inherently deflationary.

      A bit simplistic. Gold is not only scarce but also doesn't rust. If you start with an amount of gold, you can pretty assume you will still have that amount of gold even if buried in the ground and otherwise exposed to elements for decades so long as it isn't stolen. It also happens to be considered pretty, hard to fake, capable of being used for gilding, easy to work, and these days has some industrial advantages over other more commonly used metals that it would be used for if not for the cost but sometimes still is.

    52. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tin doesn't rust either and doesn't cost $1300 per ounce.

    53. Re:Bubble! by mikael · · Score: 1

      The ability to "mine" bitcoins is controlled. Originally people were using old low-end desktop PC's, then moved to high-end gaming PC's. The difficulty was increased. More people switched to GPU's which were 100x faster. The "difficulty" to mine bitcoins was then adjusted again. They moved to motherboards with 19 PCI slots. The difficulty was increased again. Some developers came out with bitcoin mining ASIC's (currently selling for $1900). Some users have struck gold simply by mining bitcoin hashcodes at random and finding a blockchain.

      It's a shame they couldn't apply this innovation to something like protein folding.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    54. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think too many pimps mined any bitcoins. The early adopters were geeks. The sort that hung around here in 2011. We're past the early adopters phase.

      It's fine if you don't want to participate in this system. You an choose to participate in the system that got 300,000 civilians killed in Iraq and funds the CIA's efforts to destabalize countries. Or you can go with the one that... supports the Russian oligarchs. It's still called the Rubble, right? Both of those are just kinda.... bigger thugs and classier pimps.

      But you obviously have some psychological or personal issues involved here, so good luck with that.

    55. Re:Bubble! by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      With Deflationary currency, those people producing goods and services that others actually value will be rewarded. And the earning power of the youth will benefit them when they are elderly. Hence the saying ... "a penny saved is a penny earned", which unlike current fiat inflationary currency is meaningless.

      Further, everyone knows what rampant inflation looks like, and why it leads to war and revolution. Nobody cared when it was runaway deflation, because holding a coin for two days doubled your wealth.

      I'm pretty sure that we have no real idea what business looks like with deflationary currency. We can make educated assumptions. One thing is for sure, savings would be more beneficial than spending, and credit would largely be rare, rather than common.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    56. Re:Bubble! by DanielRavenNest · · Score: 1

      Bitcoin's purpose is to transfer value, either in space or in time. It is not useful in itself, just like US dollars (the paper kind) are only useful in themselves for snorting white powder. Their usefulness comes in being able to trade for other things. Bitcoin is especially useful when the trade is over long distances with barriers in the way. Paper dollars are most useful in immediate local trade. They each have their niche.

      Since the supply of bitcoins for immediate purchase is limited, their market value is mostly determined by current supply vs demand. The rise in price causes some bitcoins which were in long-term storage to get unlocked, eventually balancing demand.

    57. Re:Bubble! by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Cryptocurrency is inflationary, because anyone can create a new cryptocurrency.

    58. Re:Bubble! by SethJohnson · · Score: 1

      Tin isn't an element, however.

    59. Re:Bubble! by desdinova+216 · · Score: 1

      is that similar to shouting Apps?

    60. Re:Bubble! by Jzanu · · Score: 1

      Try again.

      See: "A US jury indicted Alexander Vinnik on Wednesday after his arrest in a small beachside village in northern Greece on Tuesday, following an investigation led by the US justice department along with several other federal agencies and task forces.

      Vinnik was described by the justice department as the operator of BTC-e, an exchange used to trade the digital currency bitcoin since 2011, which was allegedly used to launder more than $4bn for people involved in crimes ranging from computer hacking to drug trafficking." The fellow was involved since 2011 and is an absolute criminal pandering to criminals."

    61. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Huh???

      Not only do I not know where reference to Tin came from, it sure as hell is element 50.

    62. Re:Bubble! by Khyber · · Score: 2

      3.5 billion pounds for the British Crown Jewels.

      Hope Diamond? About 220 million at current market price per carat.

      I am a certified GIA appraiser.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    63. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      American Indians of the West had no use for gold. They left in the ground and in the streams ...

    64. Re:Bubble! by codebonobo · · Score: 1

      How many appreciating bubbles does bitcoin have to go through before bitcoin stops being a just a "bubble"

    65. Re:Bubble! by bitbybitbybitcoin · · Score: 1

      Gold isn't inherently deflationary. We'll keep discovering new gold, which makes it kind of unpredictably inflationary. For examples of what that can do to the world, just picture what happened to the Old World after the New World's gold was discovered. When we start mining asteroids, things will change again. That's why Bitcoin's set deflationary-ness is so novel and valuable - even if we haven't solved the problem of transmitting between nodes at interstellar distances... yet.

    66. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bitcoin Mining won't run out of fresh blocks until the year 2140ish. As the mining reward slowly goes down, miners can collect more in the form of transaction fees, so it'll keep going.

      If the mining power available drops, or rises, the mining rewards automatically adjust. It's really very intelligently designed. Any problem you can think of is already handled.

    67. Re: Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Donâ(TM)t want to be disrespectful but your concept should update to the mind of the younger people that are looking at crypto currency as a new form o value that is not related to a real asset anymore

    68. Re:Bubble! by oakgrove · · Score: 1

      There will only ever be 21 million bitcoins. No matter how many copycats spring into existence that number will never change.

      --
      The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
    69. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tin isn't an element, however.

      Are you sure about that? My periodic table here says otherwise. Maybe you were thinking of bronze (an alloy of copper and tin)?

    70. Re:Bubble! by Powercntrl · · Score: 2

      Cryptocurrency also has all these advantages--it too is very difficult to corrupt, is fairly rare, and will remain after natural disasters. It even avoids the downside of being heavy.

      Crypto's rarity is simply an agreed upon constraint by its userbase. There's absolutely no reason it couldn't be forked to spew out more "coins", if most of the miners decided more is better than less, and updated to the new fork. To look at it another way, Bitcoin's rarity hinges on the same aspect of the human psyche which enabled Donald Trump to become president (as long as enough people agree to support something insane, it can happen).

      Unless there's some crazy breakthrough in the cost of nuclear transmutation, gold is going to stay rare.

      --

      ---
      DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
    71. Re:Bubble! by Comrade+Ogilvy · · Score: 1

      Further, everyone knows what rampant inflation looks like, and why it leads to war and revolution. Nobody cared when it was runaway deflation, because holding a coin for two days doubled your wealth.

      I'm pretty sure that we have no real idea what business looks like with deflationary currency. We can make educated assumptions. One thing is for sure, savings would be more beneficial than spending, and credit would largely be rare, rather than common.

      Your "pretty sure" is simply wrong. In roughly the same historical period we saw an advanced economy get smacked by hyperinflation and fall into chaos then war, the USA itself was getting hammered by deflation. It was a wonderful time when American shoe factories laid off workers to starve in the streets while barefoot farmers were kicked off their farms, all to serve the idolatry of gold.

      Gold fetishists have brainwashed certain people into believing that inflation is super scary while deflationary contractions are purely a theoretical problem. That is because they lie and some sheep are always eager to believe them.

    72. Re: Bubble! by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

      Yes, it is designed that way. Its artificial scarcity is intrinsic - you cannot just switch it off.

      Actually, you can. Bitcoin is open source - feel free to modify it any way you like.

      The difficulty is getting a majority of miners and end users to switch to your fork. It's already happened with "Bitcoin Cash".

      --

      ---
      DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
    73. Re:Bubble! by VeryFluffyBunny · · Score: 1

      Yep, Wall St. + Bitcoin is a match made in hell. Wall St. will gamble away everything they have, bankers will get their huge bonuses, executives will get stinking rich, and when they music stops, guess who's going to pay the bill?

      --
      Debate is a form of harassment. Do not question my truth.
    74. Re:Bubble! by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

      There will only ever be 21 million bitcoins.

      Actually, if everyone simply agreed to stop running the Bitcoin software and delete the blockchain from their computers, there'd be no Bitcoins. People could wake up tomorrow and decide gold is worth less than polystyrene, but the gold would still continue to exist. That's decentralization for you.

      --

      ---
      DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
    75. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Unquestionably definitionally a characteristic" and "wholly subjective" are not the sole alternatives at hand.

      Reality is, the same amount of gold would get you a top-of-the-line set of formal clothing today, as 2000 years ago. Compare with the results of any fiat currency.

      The only difference between "predictably a characteristic" and "intrinsic" is somewhere in the realm of navel-gazing philosophers, hoping to shoehorn some reading on Hume's "true substance" into the conversation somehow.

      The ones likely to soon get shafted by their local government, as demanded.

    76. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An exchange is not a bitcoin miner. It's simply an organization that trades BTC to/for another currency. Just because some criminals have used BTC does not mean all users of BTC are criminals. You argument is an Ad Hominem fallacy.

    77. Re:Bubble! by oakgrove · · Score: 1

      Actually, if everyone simply agreed to stop running the Bitcoin software and delete the blockchain from their computers

      Why would they do that?

      --
      The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
    78. Re:Bubble! by Jzanu · · Score: 1

      God damn you lot are all fucking idiots, you need to at least try to read coherently! I am talking about the entire bitcoin, the faggot before you obsessed with miners as claim on the only ones involved in 2011. Now go fuck off!

    79. Re: Bubble! by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter how many bitcoins there will be, because they are a member of the set of cryptocurrencies, and there is no intrinsic limit on the size of that set.

    80. Re: Bubble! by oakgrove · · Score: 1

      Bitcoin being in the set of all cryptocurrencies is akin to Facebook being in the set of all social networks. Bitcoin has the network effect and the economic incentive of the participants to keep building on it. Bitcoin ran away with the crown the same way the longest chain runs away with the consensus every 10 minutes. Every day more miners invest in hardware strengthening the BTC blockchain, more owners take a stake, more businesses associate themselves accepting BTC as payment. True, there are many ersatz challengers and they can all be dubbed "cryptocurrencies" endeavoring to soak up some BTC shine but in the end, there is only one BTC blockchain and whether people realize it or not, that's what they are invested in. If the BTC blockchain isn't verifying your transactions then, no, you have no claim to the "set" of all cryptocurrencies. The set of pretenders maybe.

      --
      The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
    81. Re: Bubble! by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      Facebook will lose dominance just like other big companies. Network effects can't support bitcoin perpetually, because it can't rise forever, and younger cryptocurrencies that are easier to mine and have not approached their economic limits will be seen as a better investment.

    82. Re: Bubble! by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      I am turned off by the fact that everyone is measuring bitcoin value in dollars.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    83. Re: Bubble! by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      It is supposed to be a currency. It should not have a price. I think the point was to substitute bitcoin for dollars. No one is doing that. Is this how we establish the value of bitcoin against a basket of goods?

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    84. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They've got worth explicitly because people are willing to accept Bitcoin. It's more functionally useful than gold because at least with Bitcoin I can spend it. I have more than a dozen local restaurants and shops that'll take my Bitcoin. I have NONE that will take gold. I also have hundreds of places to spend it online. I've had no problem spending 10s of thousands of dollars worth of Bitcoin in the past months. From car repairs to electronics to breakfast I've got options. My entire 3-week vacation across country from New Hampshire to Wyoming to California and back along the southern portion of the United States followed by driving up the east coast this summer was paid for with Bitcoin. Every conference I've attended in recent years has been paid for with Bitcoin. Both the hotel and all trips involving flights.

    85. Re:Bubble! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Crypto currencies are not commodities though, are they? It's a currency used for exchange. The upper theoretical value of a single bitcoin is something like 3.7 million dollars (world GDP divided by 21 million possible bitcoin).

    86. Re:Bubble! by mysidia · · Score: 1

      the USA itself was getting hammered by deflation. It was a wonderful time when American shoe factories laid off workers to starve in the streets while barefoot farmers were kicked off their farms

      All that tells you is that economic downturns (Booms and Busts) happen.
      And reminds that SUDDEN massive changes in price inflation / deflation are Bad, which
      are different from having deflationary or inflationary exchange currencies.

      That doesn't tell you anything in general about deflationary currencies or economics, however.
      Economics is mostly about forecasting "on average" / "eventually" / "when equilibrium is reached" results;
      the economy under ALL/ANY kind of monetary system and EITHER inflation OR deflation is subject to the
      possibility of temporary shocks / spikes in growth or sudden major losses, all of which are observed to
      smooth out only in time

      All long-term inflationary currency is is essentially a TAX, most of the value of which is taken from people and distributed to the bankers.

      People who want to save money for future use would likely prefer to hold their savings in Deflationary currency given a choice,
      and people who want to spend most money as soon as they get it would likely prefer Inflationary, so they earn more and more quantity of units over time
      to help replace what they didn't save.

  2. But UNTIL the COLLAPSE ... BUY! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    BUY! BUY! BUY!

  3. Oh for fucks sakes by rsilvergun · · Score: 2, Insightful

    it's only valuable because it's backended by a ton of illegal activity (money laundering, gambling, drugs, ransomware). Nobody's buying much of anything legitimate with this stuff because it's not backed by governments, no will it be. Sooner or later the government will crack down and it'll all collapse.

    Wall Street has always been a combination shell game and method for the ruling class to skim 50-60% off the economy without doing any real work, but this is just ridiculous. Come to think of it that's the only way I could see Crypto currency get a kind of legitimacy. I could see the ruling class forcing us to use it to buy stuff so they can skim even more off us working stiff's wages. Like credit cards but without the convenience and buyer protections.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm guessing you weren't one of the smart ones to invest early...

    2. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You misspelled "lucky."

    3. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you've been paying attention, governments HAVE been cracking down on it, or trying to. P2P networks are fairly resistant to national borders, if you weren't aware.

      Also the USD and Tide laundry detergent are also backed by illegal activity.

      Crypto is probably in a bubble right now. There's a reason that wealth is flowing to this space from elsewhere though, and it's likely the amount of fraud and debasement prevalent in fiat currencies backed by government violence and nothing else.

    4. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      cut out the retarded bias and especially the last two lines then your post shows that you ~almost~ understand the scam

    5. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lucky enough to be born smart enough to not internalize banker propaganda?

      I missed the opportunity to buy Bitcoin at 30 cents a pop and I kick myself every day for it. I put a few hundred in Ether two years ago to avoid missing the opportunity twice. Luck had much less to do with it than having a finger on the pulse of what's going on in tech and finance. Since then, major banks and tech companies like BoA and IBM have seen the writing on the wall and begun entering the crypto space.

      If you want some free advise, put as much as you're willing to lose in Monero (if you don't believe the entire crypto space is overvalued at the moment), at its current price it's a much better value than competing anonymizing coins like Dash and ZCash with the added caveat that it's not as widely supported in third party wallets.

      Not that you'll bother. People like you avoid any perceptible risk, then label people better at assessing it than you as "lucky". Have fun with your sour grapes.

    6. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Found the bit coin "investor"/patsy!

      No knowledge of economics? Check!

      No self-awareness? Check!

      No rational thought? Check!

      Two-bit brain? Check!

    7. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Literally made 20 grand on 500 dollars. Stay salty.

      Most "economists" don't understand economics. Go read some financial articles from three months before the last banking crisis to see what I mean. If you want to put your trust in government financed tea leaf readers, be my guest. Bitcoin has gained 400% in the last year, Ether has gained 4000%, and the USD has been on a steady decline for a century since the establishment of the federal reserve.

    8. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by Jzanu · · Score: 1

      How often do you lie to others? You might be a psychopath.

    9. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would I lie anonymously on the internet? I'm not even trying to convince anyone to buy, the insane gains from the last year have likely plateaued for the time being, you'd probably be better off in precious metals at the moment.

      Ether was under $3 two years ago, anyone active in the already 6 year old cryptocurrency community had the opportunity to find out about it and invest in it. I didn't even make that much, most of the people I told about it at the time invested more than I did, including one who now works for a blockchain company in NYC that works with the banking industry.

      You can think I'm lying, I really don't care. Go look at a chart, regardless of whether or not I really made 4000% gains, a lot of people clearly did. Not all of them were "lucky", some of them just knew more than you did.

    10. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by Jzanu · · Score: 1

      If you have personally invested money in bitcoin then you are a biased interested party by definition. Then anything in your self-interest of boosting prices on any temporary basis so that you can cash out, that provides your justification. This is why investing advice shouldn't come from the internet or anonymous sources, and anyone who offers it that way is suspect by default.

    11. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've got about 200x more money in Ether than in Bitcoin currently, the fact that you think I'm pushing the latter is a pretty clear demonstration that you have no idea what it is I'm interested in based on my posts. The only thing I'm interested in is dismantling the inflationary fiat monetary system states and state cheerleaders like yourself are interested in keeping supreme. Bitcoin, Ether, Monero, gold, silver, tulips or sticks, I really don't care which one manages to do it.

      Note: I've sold more crypto than I've bought, even if they all crashed to zero tomorrow I've still made money.

    12. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by Jzanu · · Score: 1

      I am talking about practical investing and awareness. Your belief that you are somehow the smartest one around just makes you an easy target for real criminals. The first one to find you will manipulate you even more than steal anything you do have for themselves. Hopefully that is just a bit of money.

    13. Re: Oh for fucks sakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never said I was the smartest, I said I knew something you didn't. A lot of people do.

      "Practical investing" isn't dismissing an entire asset class out of emotions. I put what I was willing to lose in crypto, I made some money as a result of that bet. I encourage you to put an amount of money you're willing to lose in whatever asset class you think may yield gains and stop acting like you're a genius for trash talking people who made money in literally the greatest bull run in history.

    14. Re: Oh for fucks sakes by Jzanu · · Score: 2

      I am cautioning everyone now from being stupid because there is only one direction for bitcoin and all the crop of virtual currencies to go - and that is to $0. Then they will be screwed financially, and given the typical age here that means they will have lost their retirement incomes. Don't be so stupid, and stop lying to others for your own temporary benefits.

    15. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you won't take advice from some one who succeeds in an investment because they are "biased"? Enjoy your ignorance. .

    16. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by Jzanu · · Score: 1

      I won't take advice from someone financially biased to encourage my investment for purposes of their own personal gain and against any consideration of my interests. Anonymous advice and internet advice is suspect because it has no legal framework for liability. That is fundamental for practical investment. I hope you grow up a lot more before you get money or someone will take it all from you very quickly. Faster than you can even realize they've scammed you, they will be gone.

    17. Re: Oh for fucks sakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Its ok. Point to me where Bitcoin touched you.

    18. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

      Literally made 20 grand on 500 dollars. Stay salty.

      Did you sell your ETH? If not, you made nothing.
      This is a fallacy even banks fall for, and that's one of the cause of the subprime crisis.

      If you did sell enough ETH and really made money, well played, and don't it lose back.

    19. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by codebonobo · · Score: 2

      Yes, Bitcoin is primarily purpose is for regulatory arbitrage and thus exists as a hedge against anarchism where states indirectly subsidize its value. The most effective way for states to attack bitcoin is to legalize everything and eliminate all taxes which I don't think is very realistic to ever occur thus feeding into the value proposition of bitcoin. There is a circular economy of the under-served who need bitcoin to survive and these users create an inelastic demand on a disinflationary supply of bitcoin driving up the price. States can no more stop copyright infringement or drug use than they can stop bitcoin.

    20. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More Salt than the Ocean.

      Sorry you missed the big initial games, and can't turn thousands into millions anymore. Still have a chance to turn tens of thousands into hundreds of thousands tho.

    21. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by Jzanu · · Score: 1

      A ponzi scheme whose advocates dress up their rants with imitations of the language of finance, but who have no understanding of how to calculate risk, and who don't care about mathematically expected returns. Bit coin and all the others have unregulated markets subject to wild manipulation, are most often used for illegal trade and money laundering. Advocates range from naive but useful idiots (in the political sense), to stupid over-entitled sheltered fools, to serious hard-ass criminals. Have fun, don't stay so long you're the last sucker holding an empty bag, and don't try to trick anybody else into joining your hell!

    22. Re: Oh for fucks sakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You keep posting opinions without making good arguments to support your opinions. You seem to often use logical fallacies in your posts.
      Do you have any actual facts to share?
      Any recognized economic theories to point to that support your hypothesis?

    23. Re: Oh for fucks sakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "ponzi scheme"

      So tl;dr you have no idea what you're talking about.

    24. Re:Oh for fucks sakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not huge on crypto coins myself, BUT the only reason the VCR and the interwebs got off the ground as fast as they did is because PRON was easier to distribute with them...

    25. Re: Oh for fucks sakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You fuckrards really need to learn more about finance. That is the field investment falls under, which includes speculation as a bad example. All bitcoin has is enthusiasm with no legal premise and a scheme convincing only for the ill informed and financially uneducated. Don't be stupid find a financial advisor before a criminal steals all of your money.

  4. Yeah 'cuz the stock market bubble means no debt! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    “I’m so proud of the $5.2 trillion dollars of increase in the stock market,” Trump said, referring to the bull market that began as the economy pulled out of the Great Recession during the months after President Obama took office.

    “Now, if you look at the stock market, that’s one element, but then we have many other elements. The country — we took it over, it owed $20 trillion, as you know, the last eight years they borrowed more than it did in the whole history of our country, so they borrowed more than $10 trillion — and yet, we picked up $5.2 trillion in the stock market, possibly picked up the whole things in terms of the first nine months in terms of value.”

    This fucking moron is our sitting President, in charge of things. Yes.

  5. Scammers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Looks like somebody bought their way into an unregulated market manipulation! Now guess what they are going to do while you suckers buy?

  6. So where can I go short on bitcoin? by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So in a functioning market, investors should be able to go long or short on an asset -- that is, it should be possible to assert that it will rise and to assert that it will fall (or if you're clever, buying options that assert the price will remain right where it is).

    As far as I can see, a hypothetical person that wanted to bet that bitcoin would fall doesn't really have a vehicle by which to take that position.

    1. Re:So where can I go short on bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd take that action.

    2. Re: So where can I go short on bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can short Bitcoin on many exchanges. Next time try Google before you open your mouth.

    3. Re:So where can I go short on bitcoin? by JeffSh · · Score: 1
    4. Re:So where can I go short on bitcoin? by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

      There are exchanges that offer such services.

    5. Re:So where can I go short on bitcoin? by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      That is partially why the banks want to play.

      This will end well...

    6. Re:So where can I go short on bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      look for jews.

    7. Re:So where can I go short on bitcoin? by JasonVergo · · Score: 2

      There are a number of exchanges where you can short it. https://www.bitmex.com/ is one of them.

    8. Re:So where can I go short on bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You obviously haven't looked very hard, as every major exchange across the globe allows for shorting bitcoin.

    9. Re: So where can I go short on bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can short Bitcoin on many exchanges. Next time try Google before you open your mouth.

      OK, I tried Google. Tell us about some that you know of that don't smell of fly-by-night operations and that haven't had their clients' accounts stolen from.
      The only one authorized for the USA, LedgerX, requires the investor to demonstrate owning $5 million in assets. That won't work for us.
      Why does the choice of exchange matter?
      It is because when there is a large movement in the market, the options' values can quickly get larger than the real assets held by the exchange. Bankruptcy follows and the investor gets nothing. Presently all I see in BTC options trading is the same market that trades penny stocks.

    10. Re:So where can I go short on bitcoin? by bradley13 · · Score: 1

      "investors should be able to go long or short on an asset"

      Um...why? Those are derivatives. If you invest in a small company, i.e., not publicly traded, derivatives don't exist. You invest because you believe the company will increase in value. If you believe the opposite, you sell your investment.

      Options, and indeed all derivatives, are mostly tools for the big investment houses and banks. In the best case, this is to hedge their bets, to limit potential losses. In the worst case, they use these tools to manipulate the market. For the ordinary investory, it's more like gambling: the fluctuations on derivatives are mostly driven by the games the big boys are playing, and have very little to do with the fundamentals of the investment.

      --
      Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
    11. Re:So where can I go short on bitcoin? by mysidia · · Score: 1

      So where can I go short on bitcoin?

      Greetings to you. I am Mohammed Abacha,the son of the late Nigerian Head of State who died on the 8th of June 1998.

      It is my great pleasure to write to you and present my business proposal for your consideration and possible acceptance which you will find mutually beneficial to both parties. In order to enable you to short the bitcoins... I will make the following proposition for you:

      If you agree to wire $6500 to an agreed upon 3rd party in collateral at my Bank of new Nigeria and pay me 10% APR daily on the maximum daily value of a Bitcoin plus 1% in administrative fees for the shorting escrow; then i'll loan you 1.0000 of my BTC for shorting, that you can sell to buyer of your choice and return to me later.

      If the value of BTC decreases or stays below $6000, thence you can give me my BTC back at your convenience: any time in exchange for a return of your collateral (but not interest).

      On the other hand, if the value of BTC increases, you shall within 12 hours deposit additional collateral to maintain 160% of the value of my 1 BTC you are borrowing at all times, and if you fail: you agree that ownership of the collateral transfers to me, and you will repay me for the maximum value my 1 BTC had that occurred on or after the date you defaulted; before we begin the transaction, you shall provide a signed and notarized promissory note to that affect with additional collateral or a surety bond towards your performance.

      What could possibly go wrong, though?

    12. Re:So where can I go short on bitcoin? by thelandp · · Score: 1
      Wow you really didn't look very hard. The first google result for "how to short bitcoin" seems pretty informative
      http://www.investopedia.com/ne...

      Seems there are plenty of methods, no more difficult than shorting pretty much anything else.

      That got 5 insightful? Slashdot, your standards are dropping

      --

      -- the only thing we have to fear is really scary things
    13. Re: So where can I go short on bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The restrictions on option trading tend not to be that steep--I've been doing it with as little as $150k in my account, although not at the highest levels. I don't even *want* the highest levels anyway since they require the margin agreement which has that scary "rehypothecation" clause in it that royally screwed some people a few years ago.

      Anyway, that same company promises a BTC options market this Fall, and maybe they won't have such steep requirements for that. You could load up on puts then. It's considerably less risky since you're only out the option premia if it expires OTM.

      Shorting carries theoretically unlimited risk, which is probably why they have steeper requirements.

    14. Re: So where can I go short on bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wow your google search must have been lazy.

      i used coinbase.com for months, since it is based in San Francisco, it is blessed by (legally allowed) the SEC and the government.

      their fees were a pain so i switched to kraken.com. also a US company, also legal, has low fees, hasn't screwed me in any way.

      coinbase and kraken aren't going anywhere. they have US investors to the tunes of hundreds of millions of dollars.

    15. Re:So where can I go short on bitcoin? by codebonobo · · Score: 1

      You have been able to short bitcoin for the last 5 years. Many exchanges allow you to open up shorts. Here is a regulated exchange in the US that allows you to short Bitcoin - https://support.kraken.com/hc/...

    16. Re: So where can I go short on bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wow your google search must have been lazy.

      i used coinbase.com for months, since it is based in San Francisco, it is blessed by (legally allowed) the SEC and the government.

      their fees were a pain so i switched to kraken.com. also a US company, also legal, has low fees, hasn't screwed me in any way.

      coinbase and kraken aren't going anywhere. they have US investors to the tunes of hundreds of millions of dollars.

      We are not talking about buying and selling BTC, we are talking about buying and selling options, also called derivative trading.
      As far as I can tell, neither coinbase nor kraken offers option trading per se. You can do a pseudo-short buy selling BTC you bought on margin, but that's not really option trading.
      Please correct me if I'm wrong about coinbase and kraken, but provide a reference. I'm interested to know.

      As for the cost of entry, this is what LedgerX says: https://ledgerx.com/trade-on-ledgerx It was $5 million as of September 2017.

    17. Re:So where can I go short on bitcoin? by george14215 · · Score: 1
  7. Master, you are flesh! by TheZeitgeist · · Score: 1

    ...ITS WORKING!!!

    -Lo Pan

  8. Re:Yeah 'cuz the stock market bubble means no debt by peragrin · · Score: 1

    The stock market has nothing to do with government finances.

    That's like saying since you got a raise this year I can buy a bigger house. It makes no sense and isn't related.

    Then again that is common currently idiots looking unrelated topics together and basing decisions off of that. Like autism and vaccines 100% false yet still.beloeved

    --
    i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
  9. Re:Yeah 'cuz the stock market bubble means no debt by Lisandro · · Score: 1

    And he's supposed to be a Wharton-educated businessman. Jesus effin Christ.

  10. Wall street... by gatfirls · · Score: 1

    Never a speculative bubble it didn't like.

  11. Good to see... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That this place is still filled with arm-chair economists heee-hawing about the demise of Bitcoin since 30 cents.

    1. Re:Good to see... by Jzanu · · Score: 1

      It is still not an investment because its value depends on technology and especially computing power somehow not advancing, which is one of the only guarantees in life (along with death and taxes).

    2. Re:Good to see... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is still not an investment because its value depends on technology and especially computing power somehow not advancing...

      Wot? Bascially, the only thing I've taken away from you is "herp derp, I don't know what Bitcoin is", but I'm going to bitch and moan about it.

    3. Re:Good to see... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why the mining difficulty automatically adjusts as more hash power is applied.

      That 'Problem' was solved from the very beginning.

  12. Thank you slashdot by JasonVergo · · Score: 3, Funny

    Back in 2011, Slashdot had a post about bitcoin. I thought it sounded interesting. So, I mined some and sent some money via dwolla to tradehill to mt.gox or something crazy like that and bought some. That $300 is now worth over $250k. I don't remember there being that many hater on the thread back then. If there were, I'm glad I didn't listen to them.

    1. Re:Thank you slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All the hate comes from the people who saw that same post, and -didn't- chuck in a few hundred bucks like you did, and are now salty as fuck they missed out on their chance of lifetime of being in the right place at the right time to make an easy million dollars that'd mean they'd never have to work a day in their life again... and blew it.

    2. Re:Thank you slashdot by Jzanu · · Score: 0

      All of you scammers sound the same. If you were actually in the demographics of this site rather than external scammers you would understand the technical problems with virtual currencies.

    3. Re:Thank you slashdot by JasonVergo · · Score: 1

      Are you calling me a scammer? I've been on slashdot a lot longer than you have.

    4. Re:Thank you slashdot by Jzanu · · Score: 1

      By account number? I hate accounts and only have one to post over the anonymous limit per day. That you attach meaning to it and attempt to discard thought on that basis shows that you are just an idiot though.

    5. Re:Thank you slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Back in 2011, Slashdot had a post about bitcoin. I thought it sounded interesting. So, I mined some and sent some money via dwolla to tradehill to mt.gox or something crazy like that and bought some. That $300 is now worth over $250k. I don't remember there being that many hater on the thread back then. If there were, I'm glad I didn't listen to them.

      Yes... there were haters of bitcoin way back then too. I know because I was one of the skeptics back then. I've since mellowed my opinion as bitcoin has proven itself to be more than a flash-in-the-pan.

    6. Re:Thank you slashdot by JasonVergo · · Score: 1

      Joining slashdot 18+ years ago was all part of my master plan to scam people today. I'm impressed how you unraveled my plan. You know what, I know that I'm not a scammer. I don't understand why you are labeling people as scammers without any proof. My point was that I'm super grateful that I read that article about bitcoin on slashdot back in the day. It's kind of insane that wasting time on slashdot has paid off for me.

      Now imagine if I had a beowolf cluster of gpu miners back in 2011.

    7. Re:Thank you slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you the one who posted "Magic Internet Money"? If so, you owe me 1250 Bitcoins. Please send to 17Yvsma9tfiuqVP7QhsFE2VmsFpTEMy17P. Thank you.

    8. Re:Thank you slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Obviously Jzanu is a shill for the US Federal Reserve, possibly Janet Yellen herself. I'm confident in this assessment as I have exactly the same overwhelming amount of evidence he utilized in labeling everyone here who disagrees with him a scammer.

    9. Re:Thank you slashdot by Jzanu · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm German, I just hate the direction of the US led economics and American idiots advocating the stupidity that is killing off everyone who isn't as greedy as possible. If I can help one person realize analysis requires more thought than that then I am happy. There are greater interests exist in the world, and greater purposes for existence. Family, community, peace, humanity itself.

    10. Re:Thank you slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it's worth $250K, but is it actually possible to convert that BTC to USD at that volume? Or does this just mean you can buy $250K off of vendors that support BTC? I could probably spend 250K on newegg or something, but that's still not "never working again" since I couldn't pay daily expenses with it.

    11. Re:Thank you slashdot by JasonVergo · · Score: 1

      There is no problem selling $250k of bitcoin these days. In the last 24 hours, $150 million dollars worth of bitcoin was traded on gdax. That's just one exchange. I could sell $250k of bitcoin right now on gdax and the price of bitcoin would go down less than a dollar. There is a lot of liquidity in the bitcoin market.

    12. Re:Thank you slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it's worth $250K, but is it actually possible to convert that BTC to USD at that volume?

      Why does this get asked so frequently? It takes a minute to search and find out. The daily volume on a very very slow day on a single exchange exceeds 50 million usd for BTC.

      The last time people panicked due to regulation of China's exchanges, the daily volume on the same exchange exceeded 300 million. Overall volume exceeded 800 million before it bounced from the previous low and look at where it is now.

      $250k would get eaten up very quickly when the market is going up.

    13. Re:Thank you slashdot by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      You're German, you own Europe, why aren't you creating your own reality with family and community? No, you're doing what you do best - get onto an American website and bitch and moan - in English - that the Americans are ruining everything. Everyone's sick of your shit. Fuck off, European.

      The US fought the Cold War and risked nuclear annihilation on its own soil to keep the Russians out of Western Europe, and mitigated ethnic tensions in the region, and all we got in return was European complaining about how stupid and greedy the US is from the very guys who fucked the world up in the first place. It's a total farce and it's high time it came to a screeching halt.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    14. Re:Thank you slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hi German. I am American, from (partly) German descent. Just wanted to let you know, not everyone over here is driven by greed. And also, greed isn't restricted to USA alone. But yeah, I can see how it looks like those in power are pretty much out for themselves, generally speaking, and that is probably true. Much of our entertainment (games, television) is designed to promote greed.

    15. Re:Thank you slashdot by Jzanu · · Score: 1

      You are a bad troll, go back to your bridge and stay there.

    16. Re:Thank you slashdot by JasonVergo · · Score: 1

      How so?

    17. Re:Thank you slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My big complaint about Bitcoin is it's basically a pro-global-warming investment... I know it's a tiny amount compared to everything else in the world like cow farts, but it's not exactly helping.

    18. Re:Thank you slashdot by JasonVergo · · Score: 1

      That's an excellent point. Though, you do realize the US dollar is the petrodollar?

    19. Re:Thank you slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My god... this is what Slashdot came down to.

    20. Re:Thank you slashdot by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

      All the hate comes from the people who saw that same post, and -didn't- chuck in a few hundred bucks like you did.

      As the saying goes: hindsight is 20/20. The technology landscape is littered with revolutionary ideas which totally flopped. DigiScents, the :CueCat, Divx, every early 2000s "Internet Appliance", disposable digital cameras/camcorders, self-destructing DVDs, etc. If I had thought any of those things was worth investing in, I'd have lost money, every time. It was entirely reasonable to view the concept of peer-to-peer currency, released by an anonymous developer, with a healthy dose of skepticism.

      This was just one of those rare cases where betting on a long shot paid off big.

      --

      ---
      DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
    21. Re:Thank you slashdot by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Stung, didn't it? Why is a wealthy continent of 500 million totally unable to defend itself and has to rely on a distant country of 300 million for its defense? Losers.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    22. Re:Thank you slashdot by allston · · Score: 0

      Why? Is it because the truth hurts?

    23. Re:Thank you slashdot by allston · · Score: 0

      Finally reading a comment I agree with, very rare here on Slashdot.

    24. Re:Thank you slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck off ivan, EU air forces can decimate Russia easily.

    25. Re:Thank you slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go back to sucking off Putin for favors faggot.

  13. Re:Yeah 'cuz the stock market bubble means no debt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The stock market has nothing to do with government finances.

    Corporate earnings, capital gains, and high-networth margin top tax bracket income is hugely impacted by what stock market is doing - hence the taxes levied on those sectors is hugely impacted by the stock market.

    This is amply demonstrated with California's fiscal situation at state government level. Very progressive tax setup there that depends more than national average on pool of high net worth individuals, and when stock market tanks the state is on brink of bankruptcy and when the bubble blows its good times (or at least solvent times) in Sacramento.

  14. Am I the only one that thinks by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    shorting should be outlawed? I get the concept but it's pretty much gambling of the worst sort. Plus if you're a big investor with lots of power you've suddenly got incentive to make a company fail. Heck, in a crypto currency market you could probably do all sorts of stuff to tank the price after you shorted it.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Am I the only one that thinks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Absolutely not. If you can borrow dollars to go long, then you should be able to borrow the asset to go short. This is a critical part of having healthy markets. Otherwise the market is skewed to the upside. If you really think you can tank a market by shorting it... give it a try.. see how it works out for you :)

  15. Shorting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can't short stocks unless you have a boatload of cash in your account. Naked short selling is frowned upon these days. The requirement isn't that out of the ordinary, especially for a completely new market.

  16. Bubble ahead! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not like Bitcoins are diamonds or U.S. currency!

  17. Their clients must be stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not for trying to get into bitcoin but having such poor googling abilities that they need to ask financial advisors how to invest in bitcoins

  18. Not a Bubble. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "characterized by rapid escalation of asset prices"

    Bitcoin has been 8 years in the making. Like a century in Internet Years. It's a fundamentally better way to transact value and those that still hate on it need to stop dragging their knuckles.