Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: How Can You Apply For A Job When Your Code Samples Suck?
An anonymous Slashdot reader ran into a problem when looking for a new employer:
Most ask for links to "recent work" but the reason I'm leaving my current job is because this company doesn't produce good code. After years of trying to force them to change, they have refused to change any of their poor practices, because the CTO is a narcissist and doesn't recognize that so much is wrong. I have written good code for this company. The problem is it is mostly back-end code where I was afforded some freedom, but the front-end is still a complete mess that doesn't reflect any coherent coding practice whatsoever...
I am giving up on fixing this company but finding it hard to exemplify my work when it is hidden behind some of the worst front-end code I have ever seen. Most job applications ask for links to live code, not for code samples (which I would more easily be able to supply). Some of the websites look okay on the surface, but are one right click -> inspect element away from giving away the mess; most of the projects require a username and password to login as well but account registration is not open. So how do I reference my recent work when all of my recent work is embarrassing on the front-end?
The original submission's title asked what to use for work samples "when the CTO has butchered all my work." Any suggestions? Leave your best thoughts in the comments. How can you apply for a job when your code samples suck?
I am giving up on fixing this company but finding it hard to exemplify my work when it is hidden behind some of the worst front-end code I have ever seen. Most job applications ask for links to live code, not for code samples (which I would more easily be able to supply). Some of the websites look okay on the surface, but are one right click -> inspect element away from giving away the mess; most of the projects require a username and password to login as well but account registration is not open. So how do I reference my recent work when all of my recent work is embarrassing on the front-end?
The original submission's title asked what to use for work samples "when the CTO has butchered all my work." Any suggestions? Leave your best thoughts in the comments. How can you apply for a job when your code samples suck?
And therefore taking it with you would be illegal?
Generally, code that you wrote for pay does not belong to you, so you won't be able to submit it as a code sample anyway. So write some open source software, and write it as well as you are able. Then you can submit that.
If a job candidate walked in and handed me proprietary backend code from his current employer, you can pretty much be guaranteed that he wouldn’t be getting the job. Aside from the obvious legal concerns, how could we be expected to trust that he wouldn’t do the same thing later with our code?
Most job applications ask for links to live code
In nearly all companies, what you wrote as part of employment is owned by the company. So asking for live code from job applicants is no different from asking for trade secrets, and there should only be one respond:
"It is both against my ethics and my employment contract to show any of my employer's code to you, but I can tell you my code is being used in production capacity in my employer servicing business function X, Y and Z. I am happy to provide codes which I do own so you can judge the quality of my work."
Essentially, you ignore the unreasonable requests and provide a reasonable alternative. Any company that rejected you for that, you wouldn't want to work there anyway, who knows what further unreasonable/unethical request you would get if they became your boss.
Oliver.
This is a re-iteration of a reply elsewhere in this thread.
I think a reasonable analog would be in terms of musicians - would you hire a musician based on the work of the band they were in or would you want them to audition for you?
The obvious example would be if you were hiring a musician based on them being an ex-Beatle would you be as happy with a Ringo as a John, Paul or George? How would you feel if you got George based on what you heard in the albums and later found out that Eric Clapton played some of the guitar attributed to George on the albums?
As an employer, I would want to see what the applicant could do as an individual contributor to show that they have the required technical chops and then use the interview process to determine whether or not they fit in with the company/team.
Doesn't matter if it's a musician or coder.
Mimetics Inc. Twitter
Which means that you should contribute to open source projects now and then just to leave some traces of your worth.
Or even develop some demonstration application that you can show. Doesn't really matter what.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
If you're looking for how well they architecture something or solve non-trivial problems, you might need more than 50 lines.
Indeed. I hire people, and I am looking for way more than 50 lines. At least 500 lines. It should be a non-trivial complete program that does something interesting. It is fine if it is something you wrote for a hobby project on your own time. In fact, it is BETTER if it is hobby code, since that indicates passion and a love of coding.
The first question I will ask is "Explain what this program does." I expect you to walk me through it, explaining as you go. It is surprising how many candidates can't do that ... since they clearly didn't write the code themselves. That is great. I love ending interviews early because I then have free time in my schedule.
Besides listening to a candidate explain their own code, I am looking for useful comments, logically named functions that do only one thing, consistently named variables, encapsulation of state, etc. The code should be readable and easy to understand. It should look like it was written by a competent professional who is proud of his craftsmanship.
I am looking for much more than a "grasp of the language". I am looking for a grasp of professional programming principles.
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
What would you think of a handyman whose answer to everything is "use a ball-peen hammer"? You might notice that's the only tool he has, a ball peen hammer. No screwdriver, no wrench, just a ball peen hammer.
Rust is like a ball peen hammer. There are a few jobs for which Rust is the right tool. For 98% of programming needs, another common tool is clearly a better fit. The limited memory safety Rust fanbois are so proud of is also true of EVERY interpreted language going back to the 1950s.
You newbie fanbois sound like if a Ford afficiando went on and on about "Ford trucks have FOUR cup holders!". The advantage you're so proud of is neither particularly uncommon or all THAT damn important.
In fact, it makes YOUR code less safe because you think that because the language eliminates ONE small class of errors (the same errors every interpreted language also protects against), that means you're safe and don't have to be careful. That's like if you have a great lock on your glovebox, so you leave your damn car unlocked while screaming "nobody can steal stuff from MY glovebox". Well, you're missing most of the risks while ranting about protection from one small category of risk.
I work for a respectable company and all our code is Apache licensed (open source) and publicly available. Anyone can see my code.
Let's not jump to conclusions and assume that OP is breaking the law.
That said, my advice to OP is to contribute code constantly to open source and free software projects. This is very impressive to employers for various reasons: 1) it displays your passion-driven, good quality code, in projects that you yourself chose, 2) it shows your delight in code itself, rather than profit, 3) it proves you're ambitious enough to work after hours to further your career.
I hire people, and let me tell you that people listing several open source contributions (including their own independent open source projecs) always jump to the top of the stack.
Here on Slashdot, you can surf the comments at +1 if you want to avoid the tsuris, but you can't post at +1.
I think you can actually.
At least 500 lines. It should be a non-trivial complete program that does something interesting. It is fine if it is something you wrote for a hobby project on your own time. In fact, it is BETTER if it is hobby code, since that indicates passion and a love of coding.
Unless you're working on web front end stuff, or open source projects, people aren't going ot be able to share any of the work they've done. If you're then relying on hobby projects, you're restricting yourself to certain types of personality and you're going to miss a lot of great people.
Some of the best pogrammers I've known work had and well during work hours then switch off afterwards, meaning they don't have any hobby projects. I also disagree that to have a passion for something you have to live and breathe it 24/7.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
First of all don't ever make available in any way your companies code unless you have written permission to do so. Second, you simply tell them that you can't provide said code due to NDA / compliance issues. Put together some great code on your own and offer that along with your reason. You will, by doing that alone, separate yourself from the pack as a guy wgo actually understands how businesses work. Finally, that is just going to get you a code monkey job. If you want a real job there has to be documentation including requirements and design specs, as well as test methodology with implementation of same. There is more, but if you get that fat you will be so far ahead of the pack you can worry about that tomorrow, which is exacrly when you should start preparing for the next time.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
I've never taken code from a previous job into a job interview. If I have access to that code, I'd be betraying trust by copying it and giving it to someone else. If I don't have access to that code, I can't anyway.
I have had a job application where a programming challenge was emailed to me with a three day deadline for completion, and sent back well structured working code, compilation instructions, a build script and working unit tests. I got called straight in for interview.
That seems reasonable to me; the programming challenge was a specific scenario so you couldn't search stack overflow for code examples (although this was in the days before stack overflow anyway), it let me demonstrate that I could program to a professional level, and it didn't require to me share any code that may belong to someone else.
Indeed. I hire people, and I am looking for way more than 50 lines. At least 500 lines. It should be a non-trivial complete program that does something interesting
I couldn't have done that. My professional work was in a team environment, where my code was part of a greater whole and a 500-1000 line excerpt might do an awful lot but certainly didn't compile and run standalone.
Shit, even my hobby code has that characteristic. Ask Linus for 500 line of his code and see if you get a complete fucking program back.