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Software Developer Creates Personal Cryptocurrency (wired.com)

mirandakatz writes: If you want to pick Evan Prodromou's brain -- as many people often do -- you'll have to pay him. And not just a consulting fee: You'll have to pay him in his own personal cryptocurrency, dubbed Evancoin. Currently, 20 days after his Initial Coin Offering, a single Evancoin is worth $45. As Prodromou tells Scott Rosenberg at Backchannel, "I'm not above a stunt! But in this case I'm really serious about exploring how cryptocurrency is changing what we can do with money and how we think about it. Money is this sort of consensual hallucination, and I wanted to experiment around that." The story goes on to explain what, exactly, goes into creating a personal cryptocurrency, and whether Evancoin could becoming a phenomenon that spreads.

102 comments

  1. Fancy Bartering by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I now take payments in goats and manual labor.

    1. Re:Fancy Bartering by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 1

      Of course, ALL money is just fancy bartering!

    2. Re:Fancy Bartering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only goatse. Nothing else. Or else the elf gets it.

    3. Re:Fancy Bartering by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      goatse man used a couple of these goats, is that "added value" in your system or "wear and tear"?

    4. Re:Fancy Bartering by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 4, Funny

      And by "manual labor" you mean handjobs, right?

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    5. Re:Fancy Bartering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it isn't, because money typically has no inherent value of its own. A gold coin might, a piece of paper doesn't.

      Also, the creation process of money and of goods you might barter is totally different.

    6. Re: Fancy Bartering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why should a good coin have any more value than a rock? To a bird or dolphin, they are worth the same.

    7. Re: Fancy Bartering by Immerman · · Score: 2

      It's an excellent conductor, easily malleable, shiny, and extremely corrosion resistant. Inherently valuable for a culture interested in electronics, jewelry, mirrors, or general metalworking.

      Why it's worth $$$$/ounce to a culture with numerous alternatives for any particular application? Gotta love marketing. Manufacturing demand for their personal profit since bartering began.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    8. Re: Fancy Bartering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You probably fuck goat's.

    9. Re: Fancy Bartering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Goat's what?

    10. Re:Fancy Bartering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Life has no inherent value of its own. Please make a better argument.

  2. that's a nice crypto-currency you have there by turkeydance · · Score: 1

    it would be shame if something happened to it.

  3. Why is it that.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...all these crypto currencies tour how that are more secure and better than the dollar, but yet they are willing to sell them for...dollars?!?!?

    1. Re:Why is it that.... by pushing-robot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because the creators can make more, and then they have cryptocurrency *and* dollars.

      Also, like stocks and religion, the power of currency is equal to the number of people willing to hold it.

      --
      How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    2. Re:Why is it that.... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Because, like dollars, and any other currency, they have no inherent value, and are just an abstracted medium of exchange and speculation. Far more sellers accept dollars as a currency, and so when you want to buy something sold in dollars, you first have to buy dollars.

      It's actually a really common thing to do for those who deal in many different countries. You want to buy widgets from a company that only sells them priced in Deutschmarks? You spend your Dollars, or Yen, or whatever to buy Deutschmarks, which you then trade for the widgets you actually want. If you're paying by credit card or similar that may all happen totally invisibly to you, but at some point the exchange must be made.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    3. Re:Why is it that.... by KingBenny · · Score: 1

      u huh ... the fed can print a warehouse full of dollars, it has zero added value until they're spent (llow me to translate your words for the sapients lol) ... same thing with cryptostashes, you can also choose to die with a billion in your pocket for instance, how much is it worth ? nothing, until you spend it, so there was this guy, i think he went by the name satoshi, who came up with this total alien technology that was a fucking ponzi scheme, and so i thought myself or i would have mined on cpu power back then ... he finished the project and vanished into thin air ... the feds say they know who he is, as honeypot as it gets, a suit and a tie dont make you a genius ... if that was the intention, a guy who actually uses several writing styles in chatlogs (IF he or she was one person) might be a bit too smart to come out crying out loud "BUT NO IT IS I THE REAL POKEMAN!" ... actually i suppose so far having not even spent "the original bitcoins" or the fucking cloud would be all over it ... its not possible to hide anything in the original blockchain so it stands to reason the original bitcoin would belong to the first miner so what was the motive ? cos now you have banks patenting it and the guy didnt make a fuckin cent ??? if thats not alien or next level then i dont know what is (woooooo-fff topic again shit)

      --
      Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
    4. Re:Why is it that.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The power of money (and stocks, and favors from an angry god) doesn't come from the number of people holding it. The power comes from the number of people trying to get it., and from the number of beneficial relationships built around it. Currency has to move in order to be valuable.

  4. How do you buy bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Having a commonly agreed-upon means of exchange, unit of value and store of value does not require "collective hallucination". That just shows his ignorance about monetary theory and the history of money and currencies.

    1. Re:How do you buy bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's a young hip techbro. He knows everything about everything, and history is wrong,

    2. Re: How do you buy bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He also leases a BMW 3 series lol

    3. Re:How do you buy bitcoin? by lucm · · Score: 3, Informative

      He's a young hip techbro.

      He's 49

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
      lucm, indeed.
    4. Re:How do you buy bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      What part of "agreed-upon" is not consensual hallucination?

      Money is nonsensical because if it measures value, why is it kept scarce? It's as if each time you measured something, you lost inches and have to buy more inches before you can measure something else. The definition of money as a medium of exchange and store of value is nonsensical. Money is more like points. There are no limit on points and the rules for point allocation are arbitrarily and fickly decided by a select privileged few, with very little regard to supply and demand.

      To conclude, your definition of money is quaint and wholly ideological, not observed.

    5. Re:How do you buy bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Evan P., or Mr. Bad as we knew him before, was a hip tech dude in the first dotcom period. Now he's a wizened old beard, perhaps not on par with jwz but not that far either.

    6. Re: How do you buy bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wow

      you sound incredibly young and idealistic. thatâ(TM)s nice for you, but it also seems that you have an inflated idea of your value to society. perhaps you should think about how easy you have it, and why you have it so easy. Then contemplate the people who neglected their friends, loved ones and their own health to give you things you take for granted. Oh they also invented things like electricity, internal combustion engines, and indoor plumbing. But their work is meaningless?

    7. Re: How do you buy bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Their descendants elected Trump into office so yeah, all that effort at building a society was apparently wasted.

      You probably should read more about how modern money works because it sounds like you have no idea and your "argument" is basically "ancients built it, therefore it is good" whereas the truth is modern money system was only recently invented and if you were to explain it to any ancient enough people they would probably say we are all sinners.

    8. Re:How do you buy bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Money is nonsensical because if it measures value, why is it kept scarce?

      Money is scarce as there are FINITE RESOURCES on this planet. Printing more money doesn't magically make more resources like oil, minerals etc appear out of the ground. Money is a placeholder for direct barter.

      Money is more like points. There are no limit on points

      So how will these "points" make scarce resources less scarce?

    9. Re: How do you buy bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah, idiot, explain the internet to ancient people and see what they say

      you fucking moron

    10. Re: How do you buy bitcoin? by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      Explain the internet to ancient people and see what they say.

      Well, the Internet is sort of like millions of TVs and -

      What are TVs?

      Well a TV is something that displays moving images and -

      Moving images? Images don't move, ya idiot! You get a painting and you hang it on the wall!

      Etc.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    11. Re: How do you buy bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Turing wasn't motivated by money. Leonard Kleinrock has explicitly said that economics was not a motivating factor in the invention of the internet; they just wanted to communicate with other universities through the computer. Berners-Lee gave away the world wide web protocols. He wasn't motivated by money. Faraday turned down a knighthood, because he wanted to figure things out, not simply make money.

      Capitalism throttles innovation because capitalism wants to control above all else. Money is about power. Quaint old economic theories about money as a store of value and medium of exchange make nice stories but have no relevance to life outside the window.

    12. Re:How do you buy bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oil was going to peak, then suddenly prices crashed because Saudi Arabia increased production, when it was supposed to have already peaked. Is oil really scarce? Oil prices are about politics and psychology and control and power, not about supply and demand.

      Finance multiplies the price value of any "real" assets underlying derivative tranches. You bundle a bunch of mortgages, tranche them up, and sell the resulting derivative products for higher than the face value of the underlying mortgages. Market mechanisms bid up the derivative assets into many multiples of the price value of the mortgages. Traders sell the derivatives to themselves, using Special Purpose Vehicles to keep it off-balance-sheet. World capital, according to Bain & Company, is close to $1 quadrillion, increasing at a rate of $30 trillion per year. For comparison, world GDP is only about $80 trillion.

      Finance is creating money out of promises to pay that circulate as money and trade at or near par with US Federal Reserve dollars. If the promises can't be met, finance offers many solutions: roll over the loans, pay out insurance on the loans (the insurers simply expand their balance sheet using derivatives as collateral for loans), forgive the loans (as the Fed bought toxic assets with newly-created, debt-free US Federal Reserve deposits).

      Tell me more about Peak Oil. The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones ...

    13. Re: How do you buy bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are batteling the generation condisioned to accept communism, thus an compleate lack of understandinc of basis economics is to be expected.

    14. Re: How do you buy bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Finance relaxes the budget constraint of basic economics. Solvency doesn't matter. Liquidity matters. Finance creates liquidity out of promises to pay, rolled over indefinitely until forgiven by the Fed. That's out-the-window economics. Money is being created at a pace that basic economics cannot handle nor predict. It's like dark energy confounds all of physics because, where is the energy coming from? Money is like that. There is far more private money being created out of thin air than basic economics can handle. So basic economics just ignores it and uses belittling mockery to marginalize anyone pointing out that the Emperor has no clothes.

    15. Re:How do you buy bitcoin? by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      Nothing has intrinsic store of value. Not USD, not gold, not anything.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    16. Re:How do you buy bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gold has value, it has real-world applications. The USD is backed by massive political, financial and military power. Stuff like bitcoin can be banned at any time by any government.

    17. Re:How do you buy bitcoin? by Whibla · · Score: 2

      What about energy?

      I'd actually go as far as to say that energy is the only true currency in the universe...

    18. Re: How do you buy bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're too smart for these old money men defending the all mighty dollar because they are so scared they'd be left behind if their 401k (or whatever it is you have in the states) took a shit because of new ideas. Pathetic losers in my opinion.

    19. Re:How do you buy bitcoin? by Immerman · · Score: 2

      Bread. Water. Heat in the winter. Iron when you're making tools. A place to live. An hour of your life.

      Plenty of things have inherent value - just not currencies. Their value is only in what real value other people are willing to exchange for it.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    20. Re:How do you buy bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And energy is expanding. As the universe accelerates apart, more and more energy is created out of vacuum.

      The dollar is the same: the more US Dollars created by fiat, the stronger the US Dollar gets.

    21. Re: How do you buy bitcoin? by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      "the truth is modern money system was only recently invented"

      You're ignorant.

    22. Re:How do you buy bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your definition of value is circular. Also, "inherent" would mean that the value is built in, and wouldn't depend on what other people are willing to exchange for it. ...and, for what it's worth, utilitarian theory, which you're alluding to, is not incompatible with monetary theories. They are different domains, to begin with, and attempt to explain different things.

    23. Re: How do you buy bitcoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clamshells and rocks weren't really money because there were no quid pro quo quoted prices.

    24. Re:How do you buy bitcoin? by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      Gold and USD are worth exactly what the market thinks they're worth. Their value is not intrinsic. If it were, the military power behind the USD wouldn't be relevant.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    25. Re:How do you buy bitcoin? by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      My point is that there is nothing that is worth the same tomorrow as it does today. The value of anything can only be measured relative to other things that also fluctuate.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    26. Re:How do you buy bitcoin? by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
  5. Currency has value because of COMMON value by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 1

    The whole point of currency, whether it's official government currency or cryptocurrency, is that it has an agreed-upon value by everyone who uses it. That seems to be a missing element in this "personal" cryptocurrency.

    1. Re:Currency has value because of COMMON value by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      In this case the market value of his personal currency, in terms of exchange rate against other currencies, is the monetized value of his own brand.

    2. Re:Currency has value because of COMMON value by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      That element is not missing.
      He offers you a service, you take it or leave it.
      And you pay him in his own currency ....

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    3. Re:Currency has value because of COMMON value by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      Agreed-upon value, eh? Then how come the amount of agreed-upon value I have keeps losing purchasing power every year?

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    4. Re:Currency has value because of COMMON value by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 1

      Yes, of course that "agreed-upon" value changes constantly. That's what inflation is about. Still, every time you purchase something, you and the seller "agree" that the money is a fair exchange for the item or service you are purchasing. You may not be "happy" about the exchange, but you agree enough to carry out the transaction.

    5. Re:Currency has value because of COMMON value by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 1

      And this guys' brand means nothing to me, therefore his personal currency is worth nothing to me.

    6. Re:Currency has value because of COMMON value by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Congratulations! You have just purchased a "Whoosh!"

    7. Re:Currency has value because of COMMON value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should quit and go on social security because then your income is indexed to inflation and your real income purchasing power is thus guaranteed not to decrease.

    8. Re:Currency has value because of COMMON value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sellers offer different prices to the same consumer. I recently had the experience of booking a hotel room; the computer reservation gave me one price, but the guy on the phone quoted me a different price. The price is quite arbitrary, and my knowledge is limited therefore the price I agree to says more about the seller's ability to manipulate me than about some mythical agreed-upon value.

    9. Re:Currency has value because of COMMON value by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      The point of currency is to have something that is "legal tender for all debts, public and private". This guys coin doesn't even come close, it isn't currency; it's a gift token. Valid in one shop only.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    10. Re:Currency has value because of COMMON value by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      It's a small price to pay for never having a negative interest rate on bank deposits. I think.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    11. Re:Currency has value because of COMMON value by John.Banister · · Score: 1

      I think the agreed-upon value is in his service, to which the currency is linked. It's like forever stamps, car wash tokens, or hug coupons. The use-specific currency purchases the same amount of service, regardless of how much the dollar valve of that service changes. In this way it could be better than (eg restaurant specific) gift cards since the restaurant can raise the price of their food after the cards are sold. It's more like stock certificates where one owns the same part of the company regardless of how the company's value changes. Of course, given the amount of ageism involved with decision making about purchasing services in the tech industry, how his personal salability compares to the declining value of the dollar might be a matter for some speculation.

    12. Re:Currency has value because of COMMON value by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 1

      If your description is accurate, then this is nothing new at all. Tokens and coupons are commonplace, and just because it's "on a computer" or "uses encryption" doesn't make it a new concept, nor does it make it currency.

    13. Re:Currency has value because of COMMON value by John.Banister · · Score: 1

      If you're suggesting that "personal currency" is an oxymoron for most uses of "currency," I do not find that I can argue with you at all. The singularity of its usefulness kind of interferes with the functionality of most of that concept. The personal nature of the use does avoid conflict with the National Bank Acts of 1863-66, though.

  6. What if growth stops by mattr · · Score: 1

    I suppose there is the fantasy of your time becoming more valuable but then why not just accept fractional coin payments? And by saying "My time is your money" what happens if he has an accident or gets bored and stops the experiment? The value will fall since there will be no growth, unless he is able to cede control to some other organization. It seems to me the calculation is that the sum of the full value of all coins he has made are together an investment he has made in trying to advertise his ability as a consultant and experimentally launch a cryptocurrency that is based on something other than air (in this case, his time). Might be more valuable / get coopted by nefarious types if he asks other developers to join in.

    1. Re:What if growth stops by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1

      The value will fall since there will be no growth, unless he is able to cede control to some other organization

      Are you sure you know how this game works?

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    2. Re:What if growth stops by mattr · · Score: 1

      To a limited extent as most people who do not use cryptocurrency. Perhaps not as much as you, since it has not been a major interest of mine. How do you see it playing out?

      I see now that there is indeed an ether-evancoin exchange, so perhaps it is not dependent on Evan. My point was what happens to the popularity of it as a currency, what do you do with your evancoin, if he gets bored or something happens to him.

      I am guessing that if all developers make their own similar coin which can interoperate / be exchanged for ethers, it could become interesting.

    3. Re:What if growth stops by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1

      To keep it simple, Evan create Evancoin and probably starts out as the only miner and client (node) on the network. A miners job is to do the math to make a valid block out of transactions. A nodes job is to transmit potential transactions (I want to send x to y) to a miner, or validate the blocks produced by the miners. As soon as another miner and/or node joins the network, Evan loses exclusive control of it. More join and the headless beast has a life of its own.

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
  7. So if I don't want to pick his brain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    his currency is worthless to me?

    1. Re:So if I don't want to pick his brain by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 2

      It's worthless now, but when the zombies apocalypse starts, Evancoin's value is gonna go to the moon!

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
  8. Musician Stocks by mentil · · Score: 1

    This reminds me of how some famous musician (Prince?) supposedly issued stock for his own career. Can't find a citation for that though.

    --
    Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    1. Re:Musician Stocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      You may be thinking of Bowie Bonds.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrity_bond

      http://www.billboard.com/articles/business/6843009/david-bowies-bowie-bonds-55-million-wall-street-prudential

    2. Re:Musician Stocks by mentil · · Score: 1

      That's probably it. Thanks.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
  9. Scrip is a thing already by Sarten-X · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is a common practice already, but now with added buzzword-compliance.

    For decades, organizations have issued scrips of various kinds. From gift certificates and coupons to the ubiquitous gift cards exchanged today, there's always some new way to get customers to invest in your product before they buy it. This guy now has his own scrip currency, with the gimmick of being a "cryptocurrency" so people can generate their own, essentially paying him in their time and recognition of his brand instead of an actual recognized currency.

    --
    You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    1. Re:Scrip is a thing already by FrankHaynes · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Let's see: we've gone from a single unified web browser that can run almost any application to a single app per site, multiplied by the number of sites desiring their own lock-in.

      So in that world, making a currency that can only be spent on one vendor matches up perfectly. I guess I'll market a "wallet" to store each and every different currency for all the different vendors who mine their own.

      --
      slashdot: A failed experiment.
    2. Re:Scrip is a thing already by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      For decades, organizations have issued scrips of various kinds. From gift certificates and coupons to the ubiquitous gift cards exchanged today, ...

      Or the “company store” from the turn of the previous century, which the robber barons used to force their own employees deeper and deeper into indentured servitude.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    3. Re:Scrip is a thing already by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

      I compared his coin to a gift certificate in another post, but now I'm thinking... there is a big difference between a gift card and this coin: shops that issue gift cards are obliged to honor them, at least I assume this is the case in most countries. This guy has no such legal obligation; he could just decide to retire at some point. Perhaps after selling off his own stash of coins. Pardon me, I meant to say after they "are stolen by hackers" of course.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    4. Re:Scrip is a thing already by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      The obligation is only due to contract law. To avoid even that, the cards usually say things like "no cash value" or "may be deemed invalid at any time", and usually carry expiration terms. The shop could also just close up and go out of business.

      The only real reason gift cards maintain value is that there would be a PR nightmare if they were suddenly invalidated. That risk is a liability to the company, countering the financial asset the company gained by selling them originally. It is removed by fulfilling the value of the card, which is itself a liability to the company. All of the real on-paper assets and liabilities cancel out, leaving just an intangible asset: Forced customer loyalty.

      If I hold a gift card for a restaurant, for example, I can go there and essentially eat for no additional charge. However, I'm likely to bring a friend, or order just a bit more than the card covers, or even just remember the good meal and come back later. Gift cards (and most other kinds of scrip, for that matter) serve as an easy and convenient way to get customers in the door, and hope that they'll spend more in the long run.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
  10. A single Evancoin is worth $45 by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1
    --
    #DeleteFacebook
  11. Ah, that's a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Look at that... on my personal cryptocurrency market, SlashAC-CC-eXchange, Evancoin just hit ZERO dollars, and ZERO cents in value.
    Well, that was quick.

  12. So... $45? by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

    Where exactly are his coins worth USD$45? Because it's not even listed on coingecko.com, for example.

    Would he accept payments in Flappycoins? Because I got a shitload of those...

    --
    #DeleteFacebook
    1. Re:So... $45? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you meant fappycoins?

    2. Re:So... $45? by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1
      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    3. Re: So... $45? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lul. My flappy coins dindu nuffin.

  13. Evancoin? by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

    Let's just abbreviate that as Ecoin - oh wait ...

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:Evancoin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eliot should hack ECoin to give everyone in the world free money. Instead of wiping out money in accounts, credit everyone's accounts.

  14. Funny how they all copy each other by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They all use the same blockchain, just with a different name, but the name always has Coin at the end of it. You could just copy all the bitcoin numbers and call them a new name and poof you have a new "currency" you can sell to suckers.

  15. Money is Not a Consensual Hallucination by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's a fungible commodity used for solving the coincidence of wants problem whereby the lack of a common acceptable abstraction for value in the economy forces people to engage in a lengthy and circuitous sequence of bartering transactions to ultimately receive the goods and services they want to buy, wasting a great deal of time and effort in the process. We all more or less agree to use money because it's far more efficient than the next best alternatives. However, in order to function as "money" a commodity must be capable of performing the following functions in the economy:

    1. Store of Value.
    2. Unit of Account.
    3. Medium of Exchange.

    In order to fulfill these three requirements a money should ideally have the following qualities:

    1. Not too scarce but also not too abundant.
    2. Easily divisible such that it doesn't lose value when broken into small pieces.
    3. Easily recombined into larger portions again without losing value.
    4. Easily recognizable.
    5. Difficult to counterfeit.
    6. Portable.
    7. Durable such that it doesn't rot, degrade, rust or corrode.
    8. Universally (or nearly so) acceptable.

    For much of human history, gold and precious metals were used for money because they fulfilled all three essential money requirements and all eight of the moneyish qualities. Today most money is now records in a database somewhere and gold has largely fallen by the wayside but even it still performs some functions admirably and arguably better than our current electronic fiat money, especially the store of value function. Crypto-currencies on the other hand generally have most of these moneyish qualities with the exceptions of the first and last ones and possibly number four as well. However, they tend to fail on essential money requirements 1 and 3 since the short term values frequently fluctuate wildly in a relatively large range while relatively few merchants accept crypto-currency as payment compared with say US dollars. For these reasons, it's probably more accurate to describe crypto-currencies as vehicles for speculation rather than actual currencies at present time.

    1. Re:Money is Not a Consensual Hallucination by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Value and exchange are arbitrary, different for different people, different for e same person. Prices are arbitrary, more about power than supply and demand. The price of money does not obey economic assumptions because covered interest parity has been persistently violated, and textbooks say that can't happen.

      Your story of money leaves out the essential consensual hallucination part. Gold was not hallucinated into money by the Indians of the American West. They left it in the hills and streams. Gold isn't hard enough for spears or tools. Gold as money is a hallucination.

    2. Re:Money is Not a Consensual Hallucination by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Value and exchange are arbitrary, different for different people

      You keep using this word arbitrary. I do not think it means what you think it means. Something is arbitrary when it has the quality of being determined by chance, whim or impulse and not by necessity, reason or principle and while it's certainly possible to approach economic decisions in your life with that attitude I would say that most people take a bit more care and deliberation in how, when and where they engage with earning or spending money or other economic decisions. Would you say that using money to purchase food is not necessary? Is that arbitrary? It's absurd to say that money is arbitrary when even a bit of reflection reveals perfectly reasonable counter examples, such as purchasing necessary food, clothing or shelter with money.

      The price of money does not obey economic assumptions because covered interest parity has been persistently violated, and textbooks say that can't happen.

      That is a non sequitur. It does not follow that money is arbitrary merely because some people elect to use it as a vehicle for gambling upon outcomes that are uncertain, like for instance the spot and forward values of various currencies. The act of gambling is certainly arbitrary, but that doesn't make all alternative uses of the stakes, money for instance, arbitrary as well. Indeed, if your argument were taken to it's logical extreme, anything which could be involved in a game of chance would necessarily be arbitrary in and of itself which is of course absurd.

      Your story of money leaves out the essential consensual hallucination part. Gold was not hallucinated into money by the Indians of the American West. They left it in the hills and streams.

      Bartering is not generally enough of an inconvenience in small tribal societies to necessitate the use of an abstraction, like money, or at least not exclusively. However, once a society reaches a certain size and level of economic sophistication the money abstraction becomes increasingly necessary, to the point where further economic progress is not possible without it.

      Gold isn't hard enough for spears or tools.

      You weren't paying attention to the economic requirements or necessary qualities of a monetary commodity. In primitive societies, precious metals like gold fulfilled the requirements and satisfied the monetary qualities best which is why they were used as money wherever they existed in sufficient quantities. In other times and places, where they were either not available or too scarce, shells and other items were used as money instead. To use your example of the native tribal society, the coastal tribal societies which existed in California before settlement by Europeans had and used "shell money" to help facilitate transactions and although they did not use this "shell money" exclusively, it was none the less a money in the sense that it had little or no value apart from it's use as a monetary commodity. Money may not be a weapon in its own right, although one can certainly imagine a society where the monetary commodity is weapons, but it is a tool unlike any other and thus, like weapons, can be very beneficial when used carefully and with reasoned deliberation.

      Gold as money is a hallucination.

      A thing is not true merely because you assert that it is. I have offered many logical, sensible and reasonable arguments in support of my position that money is not a hallucination while you and others on this thread have offered neither refutation nor logical counter argument. Money is not a hallucination, it is an abstraction. Of course, grasping abstractions requires a certain minimal degree of intelligence which I recognize that not everybody has. Perhaps that is why some among us still fail to grasp this essential truth.

    3. Re:Money is Not a Consensual Hallucination by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I say the value of money is arbitrary because the price of money is determined whimsically by traders who collude, set prices as they wish in chat rooms, and who are labile, reacting irrationally to minor events such as Libyan turmoil, which drove up oil prices based on rumor and speculation.

      The persistent long-term violation of Covered Interest Parity means dollars in swaps are worth more than dollars borrowed in money markets. There should be an arbitrage opportunity that should disappear, but it hasn't since 2008. Hence effective dollar prices are arbitrarily higher than quoted lending rates.

      Note that currency swap markets are very large. From https://www.bis.org/publ/qtrpdf/r_qt1709e.htm :

      "The outstanding amounts of FX swaps/forwards and currency swaps stood at $58 trillion at end-December 2016 (Graph 1, left-hand panel). For perspective, this figure approaches that of world GDP ($75 trillion), exceeds that of global portfolio stocks ($44 trillion) or international bank claims ($32 trillion), and is almost triple the value of global trade ($21 trillion)."

      The violation of covered interest parity is a very big deal because it presents such a glaringly large hole in standard economic theories.

      Clamshells did not have quoted exchange rates. They were really of a gift economy.

      You say stating something is not equivalent to truth yet that is exactly what you are doing. I tell a different story than you. You have no more claim to truth than I.

    4. Re:Money is Not a Consensual Hallucination by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, why did American Indians in California use clamshells, when gold was all over? Because gold as money is a hallucination. QED.

    5. Re:Money is Not a Consensual Hallucination by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I say the value of money is arbitrary because the price of money is determined whimsically by traders who collude, set prices as they wish in chat rooms, and who are labile, reacting irrationally to minor events such as Libyan turmoil, which drove up oil prices based on rumor and speculation.

      Nobody forces you to buy or sell at the prices they offer when they offer them. You chose to participate or not of your own free will. Billions of people making this same choice individually and the resulting streams of transactions have the effect of converging upon a generally agreed upon price that satisfies the greatest possible numbers of buyers and sellers. In the short run prices fluctuate according to human decisions which are by their very nature subject to emotion and illogical thinking. This is the basis of the field of behavioral economics and it's sound in principle. However, in the long run the price of any asset will converge upon the present value of the likely future earnings potential. I don't see any inconsistency between the observation that traders make bets based upon gut feelings and the observation that in the long run markets perform rational economic calculation.

      The persistent long-term violation of Covered Interest Parity means dollars in swaps are worth more than dollars borrowed in money markets. There should be an arbitrage opportunity that should disappear, but it hasn't since 2008. Hence effective dollar prices are arbitrarily higher than quoted lending rates.

      You've no doubt heard the expression that the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent? To that I will only add what I have already stated, which is that in the long run that which cannot continue will not. Also, consider that just because a rate is quoted for lending doesn't mean that you will be able to borrow at that rate or even to borrow at all, as occurred during the 2008 crisis.

      The violation of covered interest parity is a very big deal because it presents such a glaringly large hole in standard economic theories.

      You're quoting the notional value of these outstanding contracts. If push came to shove there is no way that all of these parties would be made whole. Eventually, some of them or all of them are going to lose everything. When that happens we should not bail them out. To consider the outstanding promises to buy and sell currency as having to be balanced by the supply of money actually available is strange in my mind.

      In my mind the question comes down to this:

      Do the collective preferences of billions of people, made manifest daily through billions of individual choices interacting to create our objective economic reality have any rational meaning in the long run or is the entire system, money included, merely an arbitrary system subject to whims that cannot be rationally explained?

      In my opinion the system itself is rational in the long run, even though in the short run or at the level of individual economic actors it may not be. In that context I don't believe that money, which is a manifestation of value in that system, is arbitrary, especially in the long, for the same reasons. Apparently, you don't subscribe and I have failed to convince you so I suppose that we will simply have to agree to disagree.

    6. Re:Money is Not a Consensual Hallucination by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, why did American Indians in California use clamshells, when gold was all over

      First gold was not "all over", even in California. This can be easily seen by consulting historical maps of gold prospecting and mining claims. Second, if the proposed money is not sufficient in supply to function as the money it will not be used as such. To give you a big hint, the major gold bearing regions of California are not located along the southern coasts of the state.

    7. Re:Money is Not a Consensual Hallucination by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Consider the Miwok. They lived in the first areas where gold was found. They must have seen it in streams and mountains. It held no value for them as money. The gold rush found gold all over their territory, and they were driven out.

    8. Re:Money is Not a Consensual Hallucination by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For me, the problem comes down to capitalism enclosing everything. If I could sleep outside legally I would have a better alternative to a motel price and could walk away. But they are criminalizing sleeping outside in this municipality. I must pay to sleep. That is an arbitrary price support that distorts value. Patents and other business protections also serve to distort prices away from value. Finally, advertising actively seeks to manipulate preferences through lies such as bait-and-switch, withholding information, and outright misrepresentation. Remember Feynman's Cargo Cult Science?

      " Last night I heard that Wesson Oil doesn’t soak through food. Well, that’s true. It’s not dishonest; but the thing I’m talking about is not just a matter of not being dishonest, it’s a matter of scientific integrity, which is another level. The fact that should be added to that advertising statement is that no oils soak through food, if operated at a certain temperature. If operated at another temperature, they all will—including Wesson Oil. So it’s the implication which has been conveyed, not the fact, which is true, and the difference is what we have to deal with."

      Wesson Oil seeks to manipulate consumers into preferring its product by not telling the whole truth. That distorts prices.

      You may say "in the long run it will be corrected", perhaps as more ppl read Cargo Cult Science, but why won't other distortions crop up that we aren't aware of yet? Will advertisers become more moral, or simply keep lying about other products, manipulating consumer preferences so that you think you prefer something that isn't what you are getting, or is more expensive than a better product that you prefer but have been told is inferior by a lying salesman?

      "To consider the outstanding promises to buy and sell currency as having to be balanced by the supply of money actually available is strange in my mind."

      The promises to pay circulate as money until a psychological crisis occurs. Then, if you are big enough, your failure will be an existential risk and the Fed has proven it can supply liquidity as needed to meet private money demand. And the dollar got stronger.

      I could go on, and on ... maybe I can't convince you, but someone else might be interested enough to do their own research into my claims ...

      I'll just quote Mary Mellor, in Money for the People:

      "The primary aim of the capitalist market economy is not the provision of essential goods and services for the people, but the investment of money and labor in activities that provide even more money (i.e., profit) for the owners of capital."

      Since r > g, capital becomes its own labor and owners of capital no longer need "real economy" customers. They can ensure they are provisioned, and price everyone else out because profits. They sell financial assets and flip houses to each other, and if I don't please them in some fashion they don't have to pay me or make sure I can afford food. Such is the natural future of market capitalism.

  16. PHP v1, v2, v3, v4 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..this is how PHP was born ..knocking-off CFM to render a developer's resume.

  17. psss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pssss nobody wants to pick his brain neither his stupid coins.

  18. I'm not above a stunt either.... by ka9dgx · · Score: 1

    I've figured out how to efficiently factor large numbers, and next year I'm going to use that knowledge to randomly redistribute all bitcoin wallets with more than 1 bitcoin in them, you've been warned. ;-)

    I leave it to the reader as an exercise determine how this breaks the rest of internet security.

  19. By Neruos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Arcades,

    Old arcades took tokens, you trade money for tokens, those tokens can only be used at that arcade,

    move on nothing to see.

  20. Nope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You didn't show up to science class, right? Energy is being USED UP, as we speak. One day all the energy will be spent, and the Universe will be a cold, dark lifeless place.

    1. Re: Nope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like your moms uterus.

      Zingggggggg. Tip your editors. I'll be here all night.

    2. Re:Nope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " One day all the energy will be spent, and the Universe will be a cold, dark lifeless place."

      That's why I'm rooting for global warming.

  21. Missing One Critical Function by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. Store of Value.

    One hundred years ago, an ounce of gold could purchase a finely tailored suit. Today, the same ounce of gold will still purchase a finely tailored suit.

    If fiat currency were a store of value, then the same amount would perform likewise. But it is not. Since it takes more and more fiat currency to purchase the same value of goods, fiat currency leaks value like a recently unplugged capacitor. I have a 5,000,000 dutchmark and a 100,000,000,000,000 Zimbabwe dollar in my collection that are both essentially worthless because of this reason.

    Instead, we fool ourselves into thinking that goods rise in value by calling it inflation. Watch a game show from the 1970s and you will see brand new cars selling for $3,000 to $4,000 USD. At the same time, the smart money has been invested in land, resources, and other durable goods.

    The reality is that our currency is not based upon anything of value. It is simply numbers printed on worthless pieces of paper. For the creators of any particular currency, Evan in this case, it is a situation where they can deal themselves in without doing any real work. All currencies eventually fail for this reason. That is why the U.S. Constitution expressly forbids fiat currency in Article I, Section 10.

    "No State shall... make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts".

    1. Re:Missing One Critical Function by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Constitutional article you cite applies only to states, not to the Federal government. Lincoln printed greenbacks.

      $20 could buy you a suit in 1913, but GDP pee capita was $400. 20/400 = 5%. 5% of today's GDP per capita is $2500, which will buy you a few suits and well over an ounce of gold.

      The money supply has increased much faster than inflation.

      In real terms, income purchasing power has increased dramatically since 1913. Not to mention all the products available now that cost $Infinity in 1913 because they hadn't been invented.

      Your story of dollar devaluation leaves out the key point that inflation has not kept up with money supply growth.

    2. Re:Missing One Critical Function by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gold undoubtedly stores value better than our current system of fiat money. However, storing value is not the only function of a money. When considering what is used as money and why, one must consider all of the monetary requirements and the desirable qualities of the commodity to be used as money. It's possible that a money might be worse in one or more aspects as compared to another, but still more useful overall or even better in some aspects but entirely unsuitable for other reasons. Gold is not widely used as money anymore because it's less efficient that either paper or electronic transactions and it's too scarce now to support the demands for settlement of all transactions in our modern globalized economy or in other words there just isn't enough gold to support it's use a medium of exchange. Can you imagine trying to transact business in terms of fractions of thousands of ounces of gold? It would be ridiculous. Hence, we don't use gold anymore as the monetary commodity.

      If fiat currency were a store of value, then the same amount would perform likewise. But it is not.

      The currency must store value for an economically useful amount of time, but it's unreasonable and unnecessary to impose as a condition that the money must store it's value for decades or even centuries without loss of potency or be rendered useless as a store of value. There is an equilibrium here between stability of value and ease of expansion of the money supply for the purpose of growing in proportion to economic need which is optimal.

      I have a 5,000,000 dutchmark and a 100,000,000,000,000 Zimbabwe dollar in my collection that are both essentially worthless because of this reason.

      Which proves nothing more than the fact that government power can be abused. It does not render fiat money ipso facto useless as money.

      Instead, we fool ourselves into thinking that goods rise in value by calling it inflation. Watch a game show from the 1970s and you will see brand new cars selling for $3,000 to $4,000 USD. At the same time, the smart money has been invested in land [modernfarmer.com], resources, and other durable goods.

      Inflation is necessary to accommodate economic growth. How much has the productivity of the US economy grown since the 1970s? How much greater must the supply of money be to support that larger economy? Inflation also has the important effect of both expanding credit and discouraging people from hoarding rather than spending or reinvesting their cash. In this sense a little inflation is useful, even though a lot of inflation, especially when it happens quickly, is dangerous.

      The reality is that our currency is not based upon anything of value.

      I disagree. If somebody borrows money today and promises to repay it in the future they will have to engage in productive economic activities to raise the necessary funds to repay the loans with interest. To the extent that money is an abstract representation of those promises to engage in productive labor in the future, they have value to the extent that that future labor or economic activity has value, to us and to society at large. I need food to put on my table, a roof over my head and gas into my car. Those things have value to me and they are provided to me by others in exchange for money. In turn, my employer pays me for my labor so that they can profit from my work product and I turn have money from wages to buy the things that I need but which I cannot directly produce for myself. Money underlies all of these transactions and thus has value as both a medium of acceptable exchange, unit of account and to a lesser extent these days as a store of value, although in the long run not the best option for that which is why we invest in things other than hoarding cash savings.

      The constitutional arguments have been dispensed with by other replies, so I will not repeat their arguments here except to say that I agree that the constitution was binding the states in that case and not the federal government.

    3. Re:Missing One Critical Function by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is he collecting the Zimbabwe currency, if it has no value? It has value to him, or he would throw it away. In fact a quick internet search shows a market for Zimbabwe notes, $125 for some of them. The claim that all currency goes to zero is thus refuted. The Zimbabwe note has value and can be exchanged for $125.

      "a lot of inflation, especially when it happens quickly, is dangerous."

      Indexation of all incomes to price rises fixes inflation, because real income purchasing power does not decrease. Israel has used a linkage mechanism for decades.

      $4000 in 1970 has an income value of $43900 today. The GDP per capita was $5000 in 1970 so $4000 was 80% of average income. Today, average income is $50k so you have much more money to spend.

      "they will have to engage in productive economic activities to raise the necessary funds to repay the loans with interest."

      The problem is that "productive economic activity" includes derivative formation. Derivatives functionally multiply price values of underlying "real" assets. So a bank promises to pay on a derivative in the future; that promise circulates as money today, is bid up by traders selling it to each other (often self-dealing); the derivatives can be exchanged at or near par for US Federal Reserve dollars, and spent; when the promise comes due, if it can't be paid the loan can be rolled over, forgiven (as the Fed did when it bought toxic assets), financed by other loans. Most "productive economic activity" is about lying to sell oversupply to unwitting marks.

  22. Someone's watching too much The Office... by elbiatcho1 · · Score: 1

    So, Schrute Bucks coming to fruition? ...might as well.