NYT Op-Ed Argues Amazon 'Took Seattle's Soul' (bendbulletin.com)

New York Times columnist Timothy Egan was part of the paper's Pulitzer Prize-winning team in 2001. Now he's written an op-ed arguing Amazon "took Seattle's soul." An anonymous reader writes: Since Amazon arrived "we've been overwhelmed by a future we never had any say over," Egan writes, with a message for cities competing to be the site of Amazon's next headquarters. Amazon now owns as much office space as Seattle's next 40 biggest employers combined, according to an analysis by the Seattle Times, "a mind-boggling 19 percent of all prime office space in the city, the most for any employer in a major U.S. city...more than twice as large as any other company in any other big U.S. city."

Egan notes Amazon is offering 50,000 high-paying jobs and $5 billion worth of investments, "a once-in-a-century, destiny-shaping event," but "You think you can shape Amazon? Not a chance. It will shape you... What comes with the title of being the fastest growing big city in the country, with having the nation's hottest real estate market, is that the city no longer works for some people. For many others, the pace of change, not to mention the traffic, has been disorienting... [M]edian home prices have doubled in five years, to $700,000. This is not a good thing in a place where teachers and cops used to be able to afford a house with a water view... As a Seattle native, I miss the old city, the lack of pretense, and dinner parties that didn't turn into discussions of real estate porn.
Wages have risen faster in Amazon's Seattle than anywhere else in America, and while Amazon changed the city's character, it also poured $38 billion into the city's economy. (Besides Amazon's own 40,000 employees, it also attracted another 50,000 new jobs.) "To the next Amazon lottery winner I would say, enjoy the boom," Egan concludes, "but be careful what you wish for."

Comments

never had it

[turkeydance]

can't take it

Re:never had it

[PopeRatzo]

I have proof that Seattle had soul, at least at one time:

https://www.billboard.com/file...

Re:never had it

[Dutch Gun]

Rich tech companies aren't new to the Seattle area (hint: Microsoft is just across Lake Washington in Redmond). It's just new to the city of Seattle proper. Far better to deal with the issues that come from a sudden boom than the opposite. Look at a city in decline to see how it *could* be.

Dramatic change always shakes some people up, even if it's generally positive change. Yes, there are some growing pains, but I think Amazon is going to be a huge long-term net positive for the city.

Re: never had it

[Dutch Gun]

Arguably much better. Walmart pays bottom rung wages, while Amazon jobs tech pay really well. In my own field of videogame development, they've sucked up a huge amount of local talent with their new game studio, largely by paying better wages. This ends up driving UP wages elsewhere as well, if companies want to keep their best talent. Boosted wages means local families have more to spend, and that's a boon for the local economies and tax revenue, which relies on sales taxes.

You can look at other parallel situations in the area. Microsoft was a *massive* economic boon to the small city of Redmond. That arguably had a much more significant effect on a much smaller economy, and it's done quite well. Redmond has a lot of really nice local shops, boutiques, and public places in the area. Yes, housing prices tend to rise, but that's a single negative amongst a huge number of positive effects.

Bitching about prosperity. Talk about first-world problems.

Re: never had it

[OolimPhon]

You realize that means absolutely nothing, unless you are prepared to move out into a cheaper area?

If your house doubled in price, that likely means that you'll have to pay double (or more) for your next house, too. You gain nothing.

Re: never had it

[Kjella]

Arguably much better. Walmart pays bottom rung wages, while Amazon jobs tech pay really well. In my own field of videogame development, they've sucked up a huge amount of local talent with their new game studio

More importantly, Wal-Mart comes to take over existing local jobs in other retailers while a new game studio would expand the market.

largely by paying better wages. This ends up driving UP wages elsewhere as well, if companies want to keep their best talent. Boosted wages means local families have more to spend

Now that's a gross oversimplification. If you rise with the tide, everything is great. But a lot of people are stuck in jobs that pay minimum wage, are set by public authorities or don't see any increased competition for the jobs they offer. Or they have some other form of income or fixed amount of money like social security or retirement savings. There are a whole lot of people who will not see any additional income or new busniess/employment opportunities.

Redmond has a lot of really nice local shops, boutiques, and public places in the area. Yes, housing prices tend to rise, but that's a single negative amongst a huge number of positive effects.

Many low-income families rent because they either can't afford to buy or they have too unstable jobs to commit. Their rent goes up, which is a much bigger deal than if you own and taxes go up. And shop space becomes more expensive so prices go up, nice but costly hipster establishments replace cheaper ones. Out with Costco, in with Whole Foods. That corner pub where you could get a coffee, a beer and an meal for a few bucks is replaced with Starbucks, hipster clubs and fine dining. Nice places are nice if you can afford them.

For sure, it's great for the city's economy and you might argue that through trickle-down economics that'll fund improvements to all. But very often there's a displacement effect, in comes the rich people so the poor people are pushed out to new communities. Not everybody is going to be happy about that and they got legitimate reasons not to be. Your post comes away as a little condescending, there's lots of positives and one tiny negative so if you're complaining you're a whiner. But some people only get the short end of the stick.

Re: never had it

[Mashiki]

Arguably much better. Walmart pays bottom rung wages

Seriously, stop with the bullshit on that one. Walmart pays over the minimum wage always has whether the state min. wage is $5 and they pay $7.50, or the province wage is $10.50 and they pay $13 they've always done that. Keep in mind that working at a big-box store was never meant to be a career, but rather something to help you along the path. Much like the current hipster whining that they can't survive with their gender studies degrees and working at starbucks.

Re: never had it

[deathguppie]

As a blue collar worker living in Seattle and currently looking to buy. I can tell you there is no way you can find a house in seattle for anything near $200k. You might be able to find a studio or one bedroom condo in seattle for around $250k but it's either going to be something the size of a cardboard box or have HOA dues in excess of $800 (often more than the payment will be). Actually anything within 1/2 hr driving to Seattle is quickly becoming the same. Houses are non-existent for >$250k. I'm actually just trying to find something like a one bedroom condo within driving range of seattle with a monthly payment of >$1500 because within a year the average rent will be much higher than that and the only chance anyone will have of being able to afford to live here unless you are making six figures will be near zero. Unless you want to live in a tent by the road.

I'm not blaming Amazon for this though. We expect progress, so when it arrives it's kind of pointless to bitch about it, but the same goes for those people needing my services. It costs a lot to live here so don't cry when you get my bill :)

Re: never had it

[getuid()]

You got lucky.

Others worked even more than you and still remained poor.

People tend to attribute success to their own efforts, and failure to "bad circumstance" or everybody else but themselves. But in fact both are wrong, it's both the same: part luck and chance, part hard work, part society and circumstance and everybody else.

So you worked hard *and* got lucky. (As did I.) Great, enjoy, and kudos to you, but that's no reason to be a schmug. Not everyone who's poor is so because they're lazy. Some worked even more than you, some nearly (or fully) killed themselves working, but lacked your luck. So they stayed poor, or worse: became ill, then poor, then remained ill, and will therefore remain poor regardless of what they do.

Be kind. That could have been you. (Or could become you, when your luck runs out.)

Re: never had it

[Rakarra]

Meanwhile, those of us who came from little and tended to be a little more self-made tend to get more a bit offended when the implication comes along, over and over again, that we didn't do shit and everything was handed to us because of 'white privilege' or heteronormity or whatever is fashionable to say gives you all the breaks today. If you work hard, teach yourself, and get ahead, don't be surprised if we aren't in favor of getting dragged down again by the mediocrity that didn't bother with any of those things.

There is WAY too much victimization in society, this idea that if you're going nowhere, it's not your fault, it always has to be others holding you down.

Re: never had it

[Rakarra]

If your house doubled in price, that likely means that you'll have to pay double (or more) for your next house, too.

And later you sell that house for the value you bought it for, maybe more. Doesn't change the fact that your first investment doubled. That was operating on the assumption that housing inflation doubles everywhere. It doesn't.

"Not a good thing"

[SuperKendall]

From summary :
[M]edian home prices have doubled in five years, to $700,000. This is not a good thing

It's always stunned me that people continue to make this argument. It's not good for incoming cops/teachers, but what about all of the cops and teachers that had been living there already for decades before? It is a massive windfall for them. Growth like that is in essence stoking a huge retirement bonus for everyone living in a city now. How can that possibly be a bad thing?

Yes new incoming teachers and cops will have to pay more to live, and in smaller spaces. But some of that SHOULD be made up by significantly higher salaries for those positions as well, and if they are not getting said salaries that is a direct fault of the local government, and no-one else.

Remember kids; any time you argue against general prosperity and growth you come off looking kind of dumb.

Re:"Not a good thing"

[Jzanu]

All cities are dependent on complex support services to function, it is incredibly bad strategy to displace the workers who maintain it. Spatial relationships matter, that is what makes cities work. Pushing out the support layer means the city falls apart until budgets rise to cover increased costs from dis-agglomeration and scattering of labor increasing their costs in a vicious circle. The cop-out of blaming local government only works when the companies responsible for the bubble and especially their employees actually pay full and complete taxes, otherwise they only increase the demand on local services without paying for increasing capacity. That means less is available for everyone, if distribution were even. In practice distribution is not remotely even, so this directly means less for everyone else (the older residents), while the new rich few horde everything they can.

Re:"Not a good thing"

[xski]

Remember kids; any time you argue against general prosperity and growth you come off looking kind of dumb.

Ditto making simplistic statements on complex matters.

Re: "Not a good thing"

[Nidi62]

I don't live in SEA, but where I live, over the past 2 years the value of my house has risen about 10% and added about $200 to my mortgage. If their houses have doubled in value, then their property taxes have risen dramatically as well, significantly increasing their monthly payments. Government salaries rise slowly, so houses they could afford only a few years ago now put them in the red every month.

Re: "Not a good thing"

[jeff4747]

hen you must be Canadian or British. Our mortgages stay the same as equity rises.

When you make your mortgage payment, you're also paying your property tax. The bank collects it from your payments and holds it in escrow until the property taxes are due. Because banks really hate it when the city forecloses on the property for back property taxes (and they like receiving interest-free loans).

So that poster's mortgage payment likely went up due to the higher property tax payment. While calling the payment "my mortgage" is not pedantically correct, people generally drop "payment" when talking about such issues.

Re:"Not a good thing"

[ShanghaiBill]

it is incredibly bad strategy to displace the workers who maintain it.

Working people are being pushed out by zoning laws and restrictions on the construction of affordable housing. Blaming that on Amazon is idiotic. If Seattle wants to be affordable to working people, they should approve a lot more building permits.

Re:"Not a good thing"

[Imrik]

Unfortunately, they'd prefer to raise the cost of new housing so they can finance construction of affordable housing. This results in less housing overall but allows the local government to control more of the money while also getting more residents that depend on the government and who will vote to perpetuate it.

Re:"Not a good thing"

[deathguppie]

It's actually crazy easy to get a building permit in Seattle right now. (sic. My brother works as a building inspector in the area.) The fact is that why would anyone buy a crazy expensive piece of land and then build something "affordable" on it. That's insane. You can toss up one of those square box stick houses with 4 bedrooms and a postage stamp yard and sell it in a day for more than $750K. It isn't zoning and restrictions it's just the market working the way it's supposed to.

Now if you want to bitch about the city council.. I'm ready to sing right along with you. They've forced landlords to lower what they can screen for, for applicant's to a point that now more and more rental properties won't even offer you an application unless you can show a better than 700 credit score. 690 is a pretty good score, but not enough to rent many places in Seattle. Instead of making it easier for lower income people to find housing they've actually made it harder for the average working class person to find it.

A 2nd HQ, or a smokescreen for an eventual move?

[Guppy]

Although Amazon has stated that they plan to establish a "2nd" HQ that is to be equal to their first, I have to wonder if the motivation is to set up an alternative location that could eventually surpass Seattle and become the primary HQ. It's apparent that there is growing resentment over Amazon's impact on the city, and maybe Amazon is planning ahead for a day when the local political environment is too hostile to support its continued growth.

If that happens, the locals anti-Amazon crowd may end up pondering the wisdom of being careful what you wish for.

When costs rise, things tend to be good

[guruevi]

When costs for housing rises, the city gets more property tax income, criminal activity goes down and the city can give police officers and teachers their much needed raises while the schools get better. If Amazon built outside the city, like many companies at one point did (eg. the Google and Apple campus), then you complain about companies destroying the small towns with zero-tax deals and using land that was once grasslands and wildlife while not giving back to the community.

It doesn't stop the teachers and police officers that live there from continuing to live there and if they want to, they can sell the house for a tidy profit, get themselves into a better position, go live in the suburbs, get better educated or retire early.

We're also very sad the fish mongers no longer occupy the houses near the river or the horse buggy makers near the city gates.

Re:When costs rise, things tend to be good

[zzyzx]

Property tax doesn't work like that in King County. The amount collected is fixed and it's divvied up by figuring out your ratio of appraised value to the county as a whole. As my house has gone up in value, my taxes have gone up some years and down others, depending on how the year went.

Amazon and Microsoft make Seattle MISERABLE.

[Futurepower(R)]

Amazon and Microsoft contribute to making Seattle a MISERABLE place to live. The world, not just Seattle, needs better city management. (Posting this again, with improvements.)

Amazon: Worse than Wal-Mart: Amazon's sick brutality and secret history of ruthlessly intimidating workers (February 23, 2014)

Amazon: Inside Amazon: Wrestling Big Ideas in a Bruising Workplace (August 15, 2015) Quote: "The company is conducting an experiment in how far it can push white-collar workers..."

Amazon: Amazon Under Fire Over Alleged Worker Abuse in Germany (February 19, 2013)

Microsoft: Microsoft Is Filled With Abusive Managers And Overworked Employees, Says Tell-All Book (May 23, 2012) The Microsoft headquarters is in Redmond, part of the Seattle metropolitan area.

Seattle: Together with Amazon, Microsoft, and inadequate city management, Seattle is an extremely miserable place:

Traffic: Seattle one of the worst U.S. cities for traffic congestion, tied with NYC (March 31, 2015) Quote: "An additional 23 minutes a day spent in traffic may not sound like much, but when it adds up over a year it becomes 89 hours." (Whoever wrote that must be accustomed to Seattle misery. An additional 23 minutes a day spent in traffic sounds HORRIBLE.)

Slow internet: Many areas of Seattle have poor internet connections. See the article, These places have the slowest Internet in the country. (June 25, 2015) Quote: "... Seattle ... CenturyLink (CTL) customers trying to access particular sites from 9 p.m. to 10 p.m. will have unbearably slow speeds."

Important questions for city managers and residents of Amazon's new city: 1) Do you want to invite a company to your city that has a history of abusiveness? 2) Could the managers of Amazon's new city manage Amazon's growth, or would it be almost completely out of their control?

Re:Amazon and Microsoft make Seattle MISERABLE.

[KC0A]

The August 15, 2015 article was a hatchet job. The Times reporters interviewed a handful of unhappy ex-employees and gave Amazon no opportunity to respond in the article. Amazon did respond later (https://medium.com/@jaycarney/what-the-new-york-times-didn-t-tell-you-a1128aa78931) and anyone who quotes the article should also mention the Amazon's response. Around Amazon HQ the article was considered laughable to the point that someone created a "desk-crying-interest" mailing list. Seriously, I've never seen anyone crying at their desk or anywhere else for that matter.

I've been around tech a long time. After three decades as a developer I was ready for a move to the West coast and got recruited by and then got an offer from Amazon. My experience has been good, and all in all it's one of the happiest places I've worked. No one is pretending it's perfect. We know there are thousands of things we can do better. We're trying.

Re:A 2nd HQ, or a smokescreen for an eventual move

[Frosty Piss]

It's apparent that there is growing resentment over Amazon's impact on the city, and maybe Amazon is planning ahead for a day when the local political environment is too hostile to support its continued growth.

The net effect of Amazon leaving Seattle would be like the auto industry leaving Detroit. There would be a mass exodus of hipsters, and in a sense the Amazon Bubble would pop leaving a significant number of losers.

And I'm all for it.

Times change

[Ayano]

So does the submitter suggest Amazon set up in the middle of a desert where there's no Impact? Does the desert have highly educated workers? A diverse environment and pool of talent to select from? Infrastructure? Proximity to Colleges?

The first rule of starting off or making expansions to any business to minimize the self cost by getting partners or investors. Amazon isn't going to set up in the middle of nowhere to build up from nothing like los vegas for the good of all, nor should it expect to.

Cascadia Subduction Zone?

[boudie2]

Earthquake insurance in a seismically active state like Washington is expensive. For a brick home, worth $500,000 the NW Insurance Council estimates rates could be as low as $3 for each $1,000 of the home's value to as much as $15. That works out to an annual premium of between $1,500 to $7,500 per year.

You don't need to displace them

[rsilvergun]

you just need to lower their quality of life substantially. You can get away with it to by getting each group (teachers, cops, cooks, mechanics) to blame the other group. It's been done this way for thousands of years with minimal side effects (you pay your cops bribes but it's still cheaper than a middle class salary). The system works... for the very wealthy. But the working class has fell for it since there was a working class.

Oh, this is what government is for, btw. You build a powerful government as a tool to balance the power otherwise held by the very wealthy. Sure, if you're not careful it gets abused, but the same thing can be said for any tool (fire, guns, cars).

Re:Went from a Microsoft Culture to Amazon?

[93 Escort Wagon]

I grew up about 40 miles to the south of Seattle, then lived in the city from 1978 to 1990. My wife and I decided to move out of Seattle at that point, after we decided to start a family (we weren’t fans of the schools). This was well before Amazon existed, but even back then locals were lamenting the loss of the Seattle we’d known. You can track down episodes of Almost Live from that time period (an iconic local comedy sketch show) and find others who grew up here expressing similar sentiments.

But, back then, we were complaining about the influx of guys like Egan - migrants from the east coast and (especially) California - who came here and fundamentally changed the city’s attitude. So it’s all a matter of perspective.

Anyway, to wrap it up - if you don’t know who J.P. Patches was, you are not in a position to complain about Seattle’s changes.

Re: Most teams at Amazon require Seattle Hundreds.

[ChrisMaple]

It's obvious why you can't get a job. Some day, if you ever grow up, you might try re-reading your post.

Bangalore

[PixetaledPikachu]

Absolutely! Instead of Seattle, they should have taken their money and job opportunity to Bangalore

Oh, please, zip it already.

[Qbertino]

Its not just the Bro-grammers, the standard programmers who were neurotic anxious kids themselves are the main bullies in IT. They prefer to blame everyone and everything except themselves for their personal failures, and failure to understand the real world. They isolate themselves in commute buses and avoid interacting with "normal" city residents, instead creating a single "inner party" enclave in which they now belong fulfilling deep seated needs, and love throwing everyone they can out. Even to the destruction of the city, region, and nation that they live in. Fuck the geeks who never grew out of being childish idiots.

Oh, zip it already. Please.

Jejus HB Chrickey, how much I've heard this nonsense. Yes we were anxious as a kid. That's what lead me to Zen philosophy at the age of 14. Truth be told: We *are* smarter than many other people around us - especially when it comes to seeing how society works. That's because many a nerd was on the recieving end when it came to bullying. One of the scariest things for me to discover in my mid-40ies is that I was right all along. With 16 you think you're surrounded by idiots. Noticing at the age of 45 that that might actually really be the case is a really scary thing.

I would take a special bus. Not because I don't like to interact with people. I very much do. I just don't like them puking all over me because they spent the night getting drunk while I was at the local hackerspace talking new software kits or our social dancing with cute and sexy ladies that aren't dumb as a post.

Truth be told, the world would be a better place if it were run by smart people. Yes, Sergey Brin is a bit wacky with his AR glasses and both Steve Jobs and Elon Musk appear to have an ego bigger than the known universe, but they actually quite often know what they're talking about and have a track record to prove it.

Just look at the stupidity in the public intellectual and political debate (US, Germany, everywhere) and you need not wonder for a second why smart people leave it all behind, go into the desert and start a tech empire that rules the world. I can't really blame them.

And nobody blaming anyone for their personal faliures. Or flooring a city. This is ultimate non-sense. As far as I can tell Amazon at least is trying to build office buildings that aren't complete shite and adding way more cultural value to Seatle than any yet-another-mass-entertainment-arena or consumer temple/ shopping mall ever could.

The curve for humanity points upwards only because of science and technology. Tech wins. Maybe Twitter or Snapchat seem to be a step backwards, but what they actually do is illustrate to the majority that their priorities my actually be quite stupid. But in general tech wins and moves humanity forward faster than ever - that's a plain and simple fact. So, yes, being righteous about it might actually be justified.

Bottom line:
Chill. And think about wether the smart people might actually be right most of the time - especially when it comes to analysing, building and shaping the world
we live in.

My 2 cents.

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Re:Don't talk about economic outcomes in aggregate

[iggymanz]

wrong, you're merely spewing bullshit that sounds good. in most cases they were on welfare before