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Many US States Consider Abandoning Daylight Savings Time (newsweek.com)

An anonymous reader writes: A special Massachusetts commission recommends the state stop observing Daylight Savings TIme "if a majority of other northeast states, also possibly including New York, also do so." After a 9-to-1 vote, the head of the commission reported their conclusion after months of study: "There's no good reason why we're changing these clocks twice a year"... According to local reports, "The commission studied the pros and cons of the move and found, for example, retailers liked the idea of more daylight late in the day for shoppers... They also said there would be less crime, fewer traffic accidents and we would actually save energy."

A Maine state representative argues that it's actually harmful to observe Daylight Savings Time. "Some of those harms include an increased risk of stroke, more heart attacks, miscarriages for in vitro fertilization patients, among many other undesirable complications," reports Newsweek. Maine's legislature has already passed a bill approving an end to daylight savings time -- if Massachusetts and New Hampshire also end the practice, and if voters approve the change in a referendum.

At least six states are considering changing the time zones, according to Newsweek, and when it comes to Daylight Savings Time, the Maine representative told a reporter she had just one question.

"Why do we keep doing this to ourselves?"

39 of 366 comments (clear)

  1. You left off by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... and these states consider this TWICE a year, EVERY year!

    1. Re:You left off by Calydor · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You sound like one of those "It doesn't happen to me" guys, which is great. You don't get a fucked up sleep schedule for several weeks? Wonderful. You don't get hungry an hour earlier/later than the clock says you ought to? Good for you. Obviously then no one does.

      You didn't get in a car accident today? No one else did. Your house didn't burn down? No houses at all burned down. You didn't die? Worldwide immortality achieved!

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    2. Re:You left off by omnichad · · Score: 2

      This is much better, but yeah - there are still problems. Daylight at the end of the day is much more valuable to me all year round. I would never want to drop DST all year, but if we need daylight in the morning in winter for a good reason, I guess DST just had to stay.

    3. Re:You left off by Chrisq · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In the UK reports show that keeping GMT+1 all year round would reduce accidents, reduce burglaries, save on fuel, and be good for health. The counter argument is that some Scottish farmers on the western isles wouldn't see the sun come up while they milked their cows. (They are too stupid to think of getting up at an earlier time on the clock) Every year the farmers win.

    4. Re:You left off by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Why would the cows care about what number a pointer on a clockface is pointing to? If they want to be milked an hour after dawn, the farmer milks them an hour after dawn.

    5. Re:You left off by Wycliffe · · Score: 2

      It's not a big deal, and changing your schedule by an hour, twice a year, does not cause strokes or miscarriages or anything else bad.

      I've lived through a lot of DST changes and have never given it a second thought. You change your clock and go on with your life.

      It might not be a big deal but people are saying it's pointless and does more harm than good. Why continue to do something year after year if there is no benefit?

      People change their schedules and daily routine more than that, regardless of the existence of DST. Last week I was watching a movie and went to bed an hour later than usual. The week before that I had to get up an hour earlier than ususal to drive to a different office for a meeting. These things happen a lot more frequently than the DST change, and people are fine with them.

      This is not an argument for DST. This is an argument against DST. Many businesses where I live already have "summer hours" and "winter hours". People already wake up at different times of the day depending on the time of the year. Why screw with the clock all the time? The only argument I've heard that makes a little sense is they don't want kids getting on the bus in the dark but many kids already do this with or without DST and again, it would be simple for schools to decide to shift the school schedule by an hour or more if it was a big concern. My town already has grade schools that run from 730-230 and high schools that run from 9-4 so they can double up on buses. They are more concerned with saving money on buses than they are about young kids getting on the bus in the dark or being home alone after school without their older siblings.

    6. Re:You left off by hey! · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm old.

      Hey, so am I! And you know what, being old means you tend to be miserable a lot of the time. It's a package deal: on one hand life afflicts you with suffering. On the other hand, you get to live.

      Being able to take it doesn't make you special; everyone who survives long enough learns to live with whatever it is aging has in store for them, whether it is arthritis, digestive problems, or for a majority of us, disturbed sleep patterns. That doesn't make disrupted sleep normal for younger people, or mean it should be compulsory for everyone.

      Now the smart thing to do as you get older is to optimize the time you have left. And that means paying attention to the best evidence we have. You say that your cells don't know what time of day it is? Wrong. Even single-celled eukaryotic organisms have circadian rhythms. So as you get older if you want to minimize your misery you have to get serious about sleep discipline. No late night screen sessions without blue-filtered glasses, regular bedtimes, don't eat or drink to much late at night. Basically all the stupid shit you did when you were a kid because you could get by on six hours of not very good sleep.

      As long as we're talking anecdotes, when I got serious about sleep hygiene I saw improvements in my arthritis and Type 2 diabetes sugar control. That makes sense because diabetes and arthritis are both inflammatory diseases, and the evidence is strong linking sleep disruption and a wide variety of inflammatory conditions linked with aging, including cardiovascular diseases and dementia.

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    7. Re: You left off by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Yes, but why do you feel entitled to make the rest of us get up early?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    8. Re:You left off by interkin3tic · · Score: 2

      If it were just the usual "culture wars" over here, that would at least be something. I have no doubt that any attempt to get it changed would run into conspiracy theories from Alex Jones and people insisting it was liberals trying to destroy farms. That would be annoying, but it's far more annoying to me that no one seriously tries anyway.

  2. It's"daylight saving" by Spy+Handler · · Score: 5, Informative

    singular, not plural.

    Also you don't need to capitalize each word. This is English, not German.

    Think of it like this: during a melee you pick up a +5 magic sword and say, "It's ass kicking time!". Not "It's Ass Kickings Time!"

    1. Re:It's"daylight saving" by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This is English, not German.

      Noch nicht, aber wir arbeiten daran.

      If you ask a linguistic, they will you that English is a butt ugly bastard mix of French and German anyway.

      But English is amazingly effective in that everyone seems capable of using it. I sat in a company cafeteria in scenic Austin, Texas, and listened to how a colleague from China talked to a colleague from India . . . in an English that would have turned my 8th grade English teacher into a rampage. But hey, they could effectively communicate with each other. The wonders of English!

      Capitalizing words in English seems to be a bit of a fad these days . . . we can't blame it on the "hipsters" any more since they are now history.

      What are the current counter culture folks called . . . ?

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    2. Re:It's"daylight saving" by Kjella · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If you ask a linguistic, they will you that English is a butt ugly bastard mix of French and German anyway. But English is amazingly effective in that everyone seems capable of using it.

      Everyone is capable of using it just like they could butcher any language, but English is a PITA to learn properly because they've generally not only adopted the vocabulary but also other bits and pieces. For example say the following words: beak peak weak leak steak... whoops, the last one is completely different for no discernible reason because it's a loaner from old Norse. You were knighted but not fighted, you were fought. And you're ugly-uglier-ugliest but beautiful-more beautiful-most beautiful not beautiful(l?)er. It's no wonder that basic users end up with "me love you long time" English, a lot of it is simply rote memorization that this is the way things are. Same with vocabulary, a driver does driving and a plumber does plumbing but a person cooking food is a chef rather than a cook(er?). It's not that any pattern is more or less valid, but English got all of them mashed together.

      --
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    3. Re: It's"daylight saving" by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2

      It is not true that a person who does cooking is not a cook. Have You really never heard the phrase "too many cooks spoil the broth"? A Chef is a master cook.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    4. Re: It's"daylight saving" by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2

      A driver drives, a plumber plumbs, and a cook cooks. A cooker also cooks, but a cooker is in fact a device. There are many inconsistencies in the English language, but this isn't one of them.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  3. The reason it doesn't happen by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Funny

    The reason it doesn't happen is because people will be upset when they find out they have to be on 'winter' time all year round.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  4. This is incorrect by maroberts · · Score: 5, Informative

    What they're suggesting is actually remaining on "Summer" time all year round.

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    1. Re:This is incorrect by MrL0G1C · · Score: 2

      UK here, winter time is stupid, it gets light before I even wake up and then it gets dark before I'm even on my way home from work. We just changed from BritishSummerTime which made a lot more sense.

      So Winter Time is stupid and rubbish, I'd much prefer to have some day time left in the evening than have it completely wasted whilst I'm sleeping.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    2. Re:This is incorrect by mark-t · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That doesn't work well in higher latitudes, because then you end up with schoolchildren walking to school in the morning while it is still almost pitch black outside through most of December and January. The hour right before sunrise is often both the darkest and coldest period of the night.

      Unless you propose that children start and finish school an hour later than they currently do, which could would be an even bigger clusterfuck than DST as tens of millions of adults, via a ripple effect, end up having to adjust their schedules to compensate, forcing them to work later as well, and negating the extra hour of daylight that they might otherwise have had in the evening.

      "Standard" time year around makes the most sense. Noon, logically, is when the sun *should* be at its highest in the sky, but on DST, the sun is at that position at 1PM through the summer months.

  5. Not quite by sjames · · Score: 4, Informative

    Several northern states are considering going from Eastern to Atlantic time, effectively springing ahead and never falling back.

  6. Re:Daylights savings causes miscarriages? strokes? by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Informative

    Ever since cell phones came out, I don't even notice DST anymore. It just kind of happens and my clocks adjust automatically.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  7. Make the entire year DST by execthis · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Most people don't like when DST ends, not when it is in effect. We don't like the loss of daylight in the evenings in Winter. It gets dark too quickly. People come come from work and it's already dark and they have no daylight time left to enjoy on their own.

    So if DST is abandoned, then clocks should be permanently adjusted forward one hour. Of course that would never happen because standard time zones are offset from UTC.

    So maybe the best solution would be to extend DST to cover the entire year.

    1. Re:Make the entire year DST by msauve · · Score: 2, Informative
      But of course, only an idiot would think that DST actually saves any daylight.

      Which is better than a the author of the summary, who's straight out lying. Where they (EditorDavid?) claim "A special Massachusetts commission recommends the state stop observing Daylight Savings TIme", the actual article says

      Massachusetts should only consider moving to what in essence is year-round Daylight Saving Time

      ...which is exactly the opposite of what the summary says.

      It's also sheer idiocy. But that's not surprising, since they studied a bunch of idiots - "retailers liked the idea of more daylight late in the day for shoppers." Sorry, no, there is no "more daylight." A government law can't change astrophysics. If people want more light after working hours, push for a change from a 9-5 to a 8-4 working day. Clocks are based around solar noon. We're screwing it up half the year now, don't screw it up for the full year.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    2. Re:Make the entire year DST by Powercntrl · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Most people don't like when DST ends, not when it is in effect.

      You have to be a morning person to actually like DST. Fuck that. Anyone who enjoys being awake at the crack of dawn should just get up early of their own accord.

      If you ask me, the biggest waste isn't daylight. It's all the road space, electrical generating capacity, and cell network bandwidth that goes unused every night, because there's a silly stigma against working the graveyard shift. Unless you work outside, it makes absolutely no difference whether the sun is shining over your place of employment. Convince half the population to be nocturnal and you've doubled the capacity of your roads, without paving a single new lane.

      --

      ---
      DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
    3. Re:Make the entire year DST by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The actual day is 23 hours, 56 minutes and 4.1 seconds, so we are already off by having a 24 hour day.

      Uhh, no. You're talking about a sidereal day, which is the rotation of the earth relative to the rest of the universe, and the reason that is different is because we are in orbit around the sun and that orbit shifts our relationship with the universe around us. Imagine spinning in a circle while you're on a merry-go-round that is itself spinning (much slower than you), and you are talking about your relationship to the school that the merry-go-round is near, not your relationship to the center of the merry-go-round. That is much different than a solar day, which is the commonplace use of the term "day". Otherwise, you'd effectively shift two hours in your daylight rotation every month. You're not even being pedantic here, just absurd.

    4. Re:Make the entire year DST by swillden · · Score: 5, Informative

      The actual day is 23 hours, 56 minutes and 4.1 seconds

      It's blindingly obvious that this cannot be true. Think about it. Our clocks measure 24-hour days. If the solar day (the time between when the sun is directly overhead) were actually almost four minutes shorter than 24 hours, noon would shift by two hours every month. Sunrise and sunset would shift by even more.

      The figure you mention is correct if you're judging completion of a day by watching far-distant stars (sidereal day). If you're judging it by looking at the sun, which is what's useful for human schedules, the mean length of a day is 24 hours and 0.002 seconds (solar day).

      The difference is that the apparent motion of distant stars is caused only by the Earth's rotation. The apparent motion of the sun is caused by the Earth's rotation and the Earth's orbital motion about the sun. Because the orbit is elliptical, the length of a solar day actually changes throughout the course of the year. But the mean length is ever so slightly more than 24 hours

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  8. Compromise by rossdee · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Advance the clocks half an hour next spring and then leave them there

  9. Sigh by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The whole point of DST in the first place is otherwise in winter the sun sets at 4:30pm. In the summer, it rises at 4:30am. This is fine for farmers, but for an urban population it's no good. I've lived in a region with no DST and it's silly, in summer the sun sets at 7:30pm. Totally wastes useful daylight. If you want to go back to this system so be it, but it's like there is no awareness of why it was adopted in the first place.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    1. Re:Sigh by theNetImp · · Score: 2

      I live in Japan, we don't do the whole change the clock thing, and you know what I absolutely love it. None of this changing the clock bullshit. A lot of people seem to think that it shouldn't bother people, but some of us do not work on the same schedule as the people during the day, and that change really messes up the schedules of those who have to work those hours. The end of changing the clocks is needed. The hour less daytime in the evening is not that hard to get use too, and honestly in the winter in MA when people are driving westward home from Boston (I use to do this commute every day for 10 years), having that change would be a good thing because right now people drive into the setting sun and it causes a lot of accidents.

    2. Re:Sigh by belg4mit · · Score: 3, Informative

      They buried the lead in the summary. They're not just considering an end to DST, but a simultaneous shift from Eastern to Atlantic time zone.

      --
      Were that I say, pancakes?
    3. Re:Sigh by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      The tme zone is chosen pretty well for New England and Eastern Standard Time. All of New England is within the "natural" border of EST, except for a tiny bump on Maine. Ie, they're not more than half an hour off of true solar time during EST. The western EST border strays too far west, but that's a problem for Michigan and the like.

  10. About the Only Good Thing... by rally2xs · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...of not changing would be making drive-in movie theaters viable in the western part of each time zone. Otherwise, you get off work at maybe 5, drive an hour home or maybe more if you're in this screwed-up area of impossible traffic that is the DC area, and when NOT being exactly on the summer solstice, having just a few minutes to get the lawn mowed (hour and a quarter for the 1 acre here, or 45 minutes for the zero-turn mower I have now), and that's it. Not getting anything else done outside. Walk the dog? Do it in the dark. Have a cook-out? Dark. Rake the leaves? Dark.

    Dark, dark, dark, dark, dark...

    Pee on that. Keep DST, and make the day for something besides sitting in the office and writing code while wasting all the best part of the day for doing stuff outside, then getting home and going broke feeding batteries to the flashlight(s). We can tolerate non-DST in the winter 'cuz its too nippy to enjoy stuff outside anyway, but lets apply roundup to the weeds, spray for mosquitoes, work on our big radio antennas (K8DH here), and everything else outside in the daylight by keeping DST!!!

    1. Re:About the Only Good Thing... by EvilSS · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Some of the proposals are to stay forever on DST (essentially shift one time zone east) to maintain that daylight year round. Yes it means some dark mornings but it would also mean an end to driving home in the dark at 4:30pm in December for many northern states.

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  11. Re:Time by sjames · · Score: 4, Funny

    I was in the 2nd grade the year we did DST in January. Far from scary darkness, the kids loved it. It was an excuse to carry a flashlight to walk to the bus stop (pretty cool when you're 7 years old). I'm sure some parents FEARED for safety, but since we had flashlights, we couldn't have been that hard to see.

  12. Re:Why even timezones at all? by _merlin · · Score: 2

    No it wouldn't. Time zones are very helpful, for example when you're trying to set up a reasonable time for a phone call/teleconference, or thinking about when someone will read an e-mail. You can think, "well, they're five hours behind us, so they won't be getting into the office for a couple of hours yet," or, "they're two hours ahead, so they should be just getting back from lunch." You can have a row of clocks showing the time in all your offices and from that have some idea of what part of the day it is.

    Without timezones, you'd have to think about what phase of the day a time corresponds to in another part of the world. It's more work to think through. It's been tried before. You may or may not remember "Swatch Internet Time", heavily promoted starting in 1998. They divided the day into 1000 parts called ".beats" with 0 at midnight UTC+1 and used the same values everywhere. It went nowhere because it just isn't useful.

  13. Re:Any language is "effective" by your standard by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 3, Informative

    What makes English easy to use and understand is that it is so very redundant.

    And it's not tonal. Mispronounced words are easier to understand, and tone can be use to convey meaning even when the vocabulary is lacking.

  14. Reason people may like it by pgn674 · · Score: 2

    I have found one logical reason that people may like DST. It normalizes sunrise time through the year, at the expense of extremifying sunset time. Here's a chart showing this.

  15. Re:This is a one sided bull by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The original idea was to conserve energy by having daylight when people are actually awake in Summer.

    In Summer, in Mid/North of Europe or the US, you have daylight from about 4-5am to about 8-9pm. Now, people rarely get up at 4am, and even if they do, they don't really care too much whether it's dark because they go to work anyway and don't need much light to get dressed and go to work. But it was thought that it would be beneficial to not need artificial lighting until about 10pm when most people would go to bed. That way we could "win" an hour of power consumption for lighting.

    No later than when LEDs came along and the power consumption for lighting became an insignificant fraction of our power use, the whole shit became totally obsolete for its original purpose. So we now make up new shit because "It's always been that way, and who made you king that you wish to change it".

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  16. Re:Atlantic time by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 2
    move the whole state into Atlantic Time.

    I live in the UK - please can we move the whole of the UK to the South Pacific.

    The way things are now, in the summer, its light from 3AM to 10PM,and in the winter its light from 10AM to 4PM. What the hell difference does moving the clocks one hour do apart from pissing us all off.

    PS the cows cant tell the time, even using analogue clocks.

    --
    Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
  17. Re:Sigh - It is not farmers by will_die · · Score: 2

    If you go an look into the reasons we still have the time change it is not farmers. They were actually the only people who have organized against it because it messes up the time schedule of animals and they want the sunlight at the end of the day during the fall months.