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Uber Drivers Have Rights on Wages and Time Off, UK Panel Rules (apnews.com)
Uber suffered a blow on Friday to its operations in its biggest market outside the United States when a British panel ruled in London rejected the company's argument that its drivers were self employed. The decision, which affirmed a ruling made last year, means that Uber will have to ensure its drivers in Britain are paid a minimum wage and entitled to time off, casting doubt on a common hiring model in the so-called gig economy that relies on workers who do not have a formal contract as permanent employees. From a report: Judge Jennifer Eady rejected Uber's argument that the men were independent contractors, because the drivers had no opportunity to make their own agreements with passengers and the company required them to accept 80 percent of trip requests when they were on duty. The tribunal, Eady wrote in her decision, found "the drivers were integrated into the Uber business of providing transportation services." The ride-hailing service said it has never required drivers in the U.K. to accept 80 percent of the trips offered to them and that drivers make well above the minimum wage. Employment lawyers expect the case to be heard by higher courts as early as next year.
Paid time off is legally mandated for all employed people in the UK.
firemen are paid to wait for the call so why not for other people who provide on call services?
sounds like a Mr.Burns joke from the Simpsons.
If you're sitting there for an hour and no jobs come up, that's called not working.
If you're sitting at home or out shopping, it's not working. But if you sitting in some parking lot waiting for a passenger to book you thru the app, that's working (although not active working). That's because you're wasting/spending your life for Uber's and the passenger's benefit.
And people that work (active or waiting) for 30 hours a week should have same benefits as an employee.
Probably means minimum wage WHILE working. Also, time off requirements can apply to those who "choose" to work too much. Good or bad this is just applying the same rules that other corporations follow to a different situation. But that concept might be too hard for you to understand.
Because firemen are required to wait and Uber drivers aren't.
Paid time off is legally mandated for all employed people in the UK.
Is this also true for the part-time IT consultant or contractor that gets paid an hourly rate?
Just looking to see exactly how far the UK takes the definition of "employed people"
If I don't eat at McDonald's I don't pay McDonald's.
And if they don't want to serve me food for 2 weeks I'm definitely not paying them for those 2 weeks.
Same is true if I had a meal plan somewhere.
My job (software consultant) says they want me sooo bad they'll pay for me to have 3 weeks off. The US gov doesn't make them do that.
So why is a gov MAKING some businesses PAY for services in exchange for NOTHING?
Another place where we are paying the government for someone else's generosity.
It's legally mandated in almost every country in the world.
For all intensive porpoises your a bunch of rediculous loosers
It depends, if you can show you contract for short periods with multiple clients, it is easy to prove you are really a contractor and not employed. If you work for, say, 10 years in the same place, and for no-one else, then not so much.
The summary is incomplete: it's PAID time off that they are entitled to.
In the UK all employees are entitled to a minimum of about 5 weeks paid time off every year. Uber argued that they are not employees, but legally they are.
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Because firemen are required to wait and Uber drivers aren't.
Ah, so clarity is needed around necessity? That's easy.
Go to any major city that has a long-established history with ride-sharing services and immediately shut every single one of them down.
You would find proposed legislation in front of the mayor within hours, re-defining ride-sharing as "critical infrastructure", with the pitchfork-wielding masses storming city hall by midnight...
No. As a contractor I have none of those rights. The key thing here is that the Judge has considered Uber driver's employees, not contractors.
Uber is the one contracting the drivers. The drivers are using their own equipment, at their own cost, and setting their own work schedule.
The drivers no more get to negotiate prices with their passengers than an independent contractor that's hired by a construction firm gets to negotiate their prices with the construction firm's clients.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Because firemen are required to wait and Uber drivers aren't.
Hmmm . . . well, maybe firemen could become hobby pyromaniacs in their spare time, and thus reduce the waiting time . . . ?
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
Because firemen are required to wait and Uber drivers aren't.
how convenient to create a system designed from scratch to screw its employees
you are literally insane if you desire to win the race to the bottom
Excellently put. People for some reason think working for Uber is like Sega's Crazy Taxi, where you take a passenger after another on a nonstop transportation action frenzy.
No, bro, they aren't stupid. They just don't agree with you.
Damn those socialists for winning weekends off, an eight-hour work day, minimum wage, and banning child labor! What horrible monsters they were!
These morons obviously can't and won't read.
It has one major problem There is always someone who will take a job for a lower rate than you need.
This lead to unionization, insurance, paid time off etc. etc
A nice example of a circular argument.
If you are employed and at the workplace, you must be paid. Just because the boss doesn't have any work for you to do is irrelevant. If there isn't any work, the boss should send you home.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
If I am signed into the Uber app AND the Lyft app but don't accept any jobs, do they both have to pay me minimum wage?
It's called socialism man. Dictating how businesses should behave since early XX century.
FTFY
I can understand why a business owner would want to treat their employees unfairly. But why would someone who works for another object to being treated fairly? After all labor laws are the bare legal minimum yet that's too much for some. And no, you shouldn't be allowed to demand more immigrants to undercut people already here just so you can buy your 3rd Mercedes.
Ridiculous. Uber did not exist ten years ago. Plus 95% of the population have never used them.
Of course, but if you decide to not go home and wait to see if any work will come up fior you to do, thatâ(TM)s in your own time, not your bossâ(TM)s
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
IT "contractors" are typically still EMPLOYED by someone.. like by the company that is the actual contractor.. so yes, THEY WOULD be entitled to all that, from their actual employer. and those with short term "contracts" with the firm they're actually working for, they're still employees, too, usually. just with a defined start and end date of their tenure.
the true definition of "independent contractor" is quite specific, in the uk *and* in the u.s., and uber shits all over it there and here.
It's hilarious that the US still calls itself "the land of the free"
Mandatory paid time off may be a good idea, but it is not "freedom". It is a restriction on liberty for (arguably) a greater social good.
"Freedom" would leave it up to individuals whether they want vacation, or would prefer shorter daily hours or higher pay. Because that is the tradeoff. The paid vacation is not going to be "free".
In many small towns, the firemen are part time workers who are "on call" from their day job. They only get paid for time spent either training or responding to alarms. They usually keep some equipment, such as extinguishers and first aid kits, in their home or workplace, so they can go directly to a reported problem in their neighborhood, rather than going to the station first. This generally works well, since response time is often the most important factor in an emergency.
Disclaimer: When I was growing up, my dad was a volunteer fireman.
I just took like 2 weeks off from Uber.
Did you get paid during that time. You know, like the "time off" we are talking about right now?
maybe firemen could become hobby pyromaniacs in their spare time, and thus reduce the waiting time . . . ?
They already thought of that. About 100 firefighters a year are convicted as serial arsonists in North America.
He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
Depends, are you an employee? I know of a contractor who works for himself. He pays himself the wage that his company company collects from whomever is using his services right now. He also has to set aside a small amount of money in a separate business account to cover the accrued cost of his holidays until he formally takes them.
Although nothing stops him from working while he's taking holidays which is how he gets around the annoyance.
There's a distinction between employee type. In most places casual workers don't get paid leave. Part timers however do. There's more too it then just being an employee or not.
It was about time somebody put a stop to this 'business model' which amounts to pure exploitation.
I am all for innovation and new business models, but what uber was doing is crass and blatantly illegal in the UK. They've stretched intepretations of labour laws, stretched definition of what a contractor is, not to mention licensing and passenger and driver safety. Above all, it's a wrong and exploitative model and I hope the UK courts will continue to enforce laws in this and all similar cases.
Only an american can make a silly argument like this. Freedom for corporations, not for the people.
Freedom is more than choice. It's also about what is basic decency and freedom from being mistreated and exploited by employers.
you are literally insane if you desire to win the race to the bottom
Judging by this site, a lot of Americans value exactly that type of freedom and will fight adamantly for it. It boggles my mind.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
they may be forced to schedule shifts and take any ride that comes up. But uber can be forced to pay full mileage / some kind of liable insurance coverage / cell phone reimbursement (very in us states) / toll fees / etc.
(based us laws don't know how it works in the uk)
Freedom is more than choice. It's also about what is basic decency
Government enforced decency is not "freedom". It may be a good idea in many cases, but simply using "freedom" as a synonym for "good" is idiotic.
freedom from being mistreated and exploited by employers.
Protection from being mistreated and exploited by employers. Whenever you see the phrase "freedom from" being used, rather than "freedom to", it is almost always being used inappropriately.
Part timers vs fake 1099's (some people are working the full 40 hours)
The 1099 in name only needs to stop good think the UK is cracking done on that.
Lot's of cable systems use middle man to have there cable guys be 1099's when they have little control over the pay or workload.
If you are on site, waiting for work, in the UK, an employment tribunal might decide that you are actually working for those hours. Bosses really need to send people home and not let them linger on site if they want to ensure that they are safe from an unpaid wages claim.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
In the UK, if you are on-call and required to stay at or close to a workplace, you must be paid. Volunteers have no such constraints.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
It depends, if you can show you contract for short periods with multiple clients
Many drivers work for both Uber and Lyft, and take fares from either app as they come in.
In America (don't know about the UK) most Uber/Lyft drivers are part time, and it is not their main source of income.
Right, it's painstakingly evident that these parliament bureaucrats have no clue how a system like Uber works and are attaching their preconceived notions of how a job should be. This is what happens when you let a bunch of technology illiterate fools in government dictate technology legislature.
Well, Firemen are occupying that waiting time with a bunch of stuff that is also their job like physical training, or maintaining vehicles.
What does a UK judge know about UK labor law anyway? They should listen to some rando American on /. for the real scoop.
I couldn't find details on the implication of this ruling. Does this mean that if I sign up to be a Uber driver in the UK, I can flip the switch to online, never take a single rider, and Uber is required to pay me a minimum wage for doing nothing more than sitting at my desk doing my regular day job? How do traditional taxi services in the UK handle things? Are those drivers paid by the hour? And if so what repercussions do they face if they never take a fare? Can they be easily fired?
You're wrong. Or rather you think in terms of freedom *from* government overreach. This model is freedom *to* self-realize in ways you otherwise could not. Limiting some freedoms like the freedom to enter into contracts that are deemed unreasonable will protect you against such contracts and give you a net freedom *to* self-realize that you otherwise wouldn't have.
It's social engineering and it's why countries that do it have a higher standard of living than those who don't. Work-life balance is important.
If Uber drivers have to be employees because they don't get to negotiate with the end-client, then it sounds like Amazon Mechanical Turk is in the same situation.
Must make sure they pay all users completing hits at least £7.20 / Hour.
In the UK, if you are on-call and required to stay at or close to a workplace, you must be paid.
Uber drivers are not required to stay at or close to a workplace. They can go offline anytime they want.
Even when online and waiting for a fare, they are not required to stay in their car, just nearby. I am rarely more than 100m from my car, so that doesn't seem like much of a burden.
Uber may not have existed but Uber's market did. Ride-sharing is not a new phenomenon. Why does it always come as some big shock to Americans that companies that want to operate in European markets actually have to follow established European law?
after graduating from University of Washington, I haven't had more than two days off contiguous in that time, which is more than thirty years! Why should someone that just drives a car get more time off?
who don't take enough rides or who turn down rides that aren't profitable. Uber does lots of stuff to control it's workforce. Sorta like an employer (hmmmm....).
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if Uber didn't tightly control working hours by punishing drivers for not accepting unprofitable trips or not accepting enough trips. Uber has been caught doing both and I imagine a subpoena could find lots of other examples of Uber dangling carrots to force certain behavior if we actually had a working labor board anywhere on earth.
I could probably come up with other reasons why Uber drivers are, for all intents and purposes, employees, but I'll give other's a chance to chime in. Also, you probably don't want to break the employee/employer social contract. Maybe in the UK. In the States it's probably a bad idea. Guns we got, mental health services and a safety net, not so much...
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I'm a UK IT Contractor and like most I use a company, my company pays me a salary even if I'm not actually doing billable work. I actually take around 3 months paid leave each year. That is my choice. My company charges my clients a billable rate around ten times the UK minimum wage. This sort of setup is common with contractors in the UK, some take less time off, some more, that is their choice, they get paid a annual salary that is well above the minimum wage including leave. I could work a couple months a year and I would still be better off than these drivers.
Uber drivers are employees, that is what this case has determined, Uber think they should be able to operate under US conventions, the UK employment law has ruled they cannot.
I've worked for start-ups here in Seattle for over thirty years. I would love to be able to "switch from online to offline" as you described, but as is the normal here we aren't allowed any time off. I haven't had a real vacation since I was 17 in 1985.
Probably because all the other US companies already in Europe flout EU law.
ur mom is stupid
We somehow managed to rule that corporations are people, so we're simply eating our own crow here.
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Counterpoint: this is what happens when you have a bunch of techno manbabies foolishly maneuvering around established workplace rules that make everyone's lives better.
Us white people just donâ(TM)t get any vacation time off.
Uber suffered a blow on Friday to its operations...
That opening line says it all. Uber's business model is treat employees as shitty as it possibly can.
Debate is a form of harassment. Do not question my truth.
And why Seattle has become the technology-powerhouse of the world. We typically are required to work the typical "Seattle Hundreds" which is a hundred hours a week, and unless we're from India, don't get any vacation time off. That is why Seattle, and thus Amazon and a hundred+ other companies, are doing so well.
The real problem in situations like this is the classic one of an imbalance of power. Basically, certainly in this case, the employer has nearly all the power. Thatâ(TM)s why there are regulations of various kinds, to even out the balance somewhat. Thatâ(TM)s what unions are for, and sometimes they get too powerful and then they start misusing their power.
Itâ(TM)s all about balance.
"Cats like plain crisps"
It's not there to provide flexibility, but to dodge benefits. Those that have flexibility are those that have it anywhere. Perhaps it should DIAF.
"Forget the engineers." -Carly Fiorina, briber of MIT Technology Review.
White people arenâ(TM)t allowed vacations.
Ah, the old freedom to be exploited by employers, which works great when they have all raced to the bottom and all do it.
I think that 100m counts as "close", don't you?
So, these drivers are somewhere near their car, monitoring their cellphones for rides. How is that not on-call?
In traditional employment in the UK, you could be in a cinema, or down the pub and still expect to be paid for your time if you are on-call at that time.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
What aspect of this is 'ride-share'? Is your uber driver actually going to the same destination as the ride other than for the purpose of driving them there? If not, it's not a 'share'. Stop drinking the cool aid!
There is a *huge* thing going on in the UK at the moment to stop people skirting the system by being a "contractor" or run their own company while fulfilling services for a small group of employers.
It's called IR35, and is fundamentally changing a lot of relationships - significant numbers of IT contractors have had to switch to actually being employed, doctors are having to do the same etc etc.
Uber and its workers violate IR35 in a big way.
That's how far the U.K. takes the definition of "employed".
How is that not on-call?
It is not "on call", because answering the call is completely optional. If a fireman or ambulance driver is "on call", he can lose his job if he doesn't respond. For an Uber driver, there is no repercussion, other than that fare going to someone else.
How do you âoenot let them lingerâ if they are working from home in the first place?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Sane governments like stable employment because it makes for happy voters, the majority of voters, the workers, that to whom society should be adjusted to serve because they are the majority. Hence the create laws to promote and protect stable employment in order to have happy workers and avoid workers revolutions, which always end up being rather scruffy, untidy and pointless affairs, replacing one group of exploiters with another group of exploiters or replacing one association of psychopaths with another association of psychopaths.
Stable employment = good and unstable employment = exploitative tool against the workers. What kind of society do you want?
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Lyft is not authorized in the UK. Uber is the only "car sharing" service that is authorized. Smaller ones have tried, only to be crushed by bureaucracy. Even Uber was almost shut down recently in London by the city.
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fucking hell you are stupid sometimes
But "freedom" per se is NOT a desirable quality. Because then you have the "freedom" to sell yourself into sexual slavery, the "freedom" to traffic in disempowered individuals, the "freedom" to accept unsustainable and harmful work practices. The freedom to sell your vote, the freedom to purloin public assets through corruption etc.
Mandatory paid time of is not MAYBE a good idea. It's ALWAYS a good idea.
And we can't just permit some people to do it, because that only leads to a race to the bottom.
All our labour law gains and safety regulations through the decades, pissed away in the name of "freedom"?
No thanks.
Why don't you hazard a guess? I think you'll get it right on your first try.
It was rhetorical... the answer is that you can't. If somebody you contracted for work wants to hang onto his own phone in the hopes that he'll get a call and you'll have more work for him to do when you have never asked of him to do so is doing so entirely on his own time. Not yours.
Some of the biggest reasons why Uber drivers would be considered independent contractors, in no particular order, are as follows:
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Paid time off is legally mandated for all employed people in the UK.
Is this also true for the part-time IT consultant or contractor that gets paid an hourly rate?
Just looking to see exactly how far the UK takes the definition of "employed people"
Erm... the court ruled that the employers of Uber are _NOT_ contractors. They lost the appeal too, so now Uber has to provide them with the same basic rights as other employees. Zero hour contract employees are still entitled to holiday pay in the UK. Zero hour contracts are closer to salaried employees than contractors.
Contract is different to employment, but you are meant to be paid more in order to be compensated for things like paid holidays (20 days minimum), paid bank holidays (8 per year), paid sick leave, so on and so forth. Contractors are usually paid far more than salaried employees but have to pay tax and NI themselves.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
It's hilarious that the US still calls itself "the land of the free"
Mandatory paid time off may be a good idea, but it is not "freedom". It is a restriction on liberty for (arguably) a greater social good.
"Freedom" would leave it up to individuals whether they want vacation, or would prefer shorter daily hours or higher pay. Because that is the tradeoff. The paid vacation is not going to be "free".
And thats why we don't see it as freedom.
I've lost count of the amount of times I've heard from an American "Wow, you're allowed to take a whole two weeks off at once"... and then watch their look of utter amazement when I tell them I do that twice a year. In fact in my current role, I get 26 days (5+ weeks) in paid holidays, 8 bank holidays and 6 closure days (which are over Christmas/NY when my workplace closes), so 40 days in total and I'm getting paid more than an American in my position (I get the same amount in GBP as my counterparts get in USD).
When I get more benefits and pay, I cant see how I'm less free because my employer cant threaten to fire me if I ask for more than 5 days off... Also, if I get sick that does not come out of my allotment of holidays... Yep, I get sick leave too.
Put simply, I cant call the ability to have your employer shaft you out of holidays or other benefits, "freedom". A willing slave is still a slave.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.