Tesla Is Rethinking the Rest Stop For California Road Trips (bloomberg.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Bloomberg: In-N-Out Burgers has some new competition for attracting drivers on two heavily traveled stretches of California freeways that help link Los Angeles to Las Vegas and San Francisco: Tesla's biggest Supercharger stations yet. The charging stations in Kettleman City, off Interstate 5, and Baker, near Interstate 15, each have 40 stalls, making them the largest among more than 1,000 in North America, according to an emailed statement Wednesday. If filling up your Tesla takes half an hour, you might as well get comfortable. The Kettleman City station north of Bakersfield has a play wall for kids, a pet relief area and outdoor space for families. It's open round-the-clock, there's wi-fi and there will be food as well. But if you want to stretch your legs, the nearest In-N-Out is just across the street. And there are inevitable Tesla touches at both: solar-covered parking and Tesla Powerpacks.

Comments

2 MW power supply?

[MountainMan101]

40 x 50kW chargers.
That's a reasonably large grid connection they'll need.

Re:2 MW power supply?

[Rei]

Not 40x50kW. 20x145kW max. Each Tesla Supercharger (excluding the new urban superchargers) delivers a max of 145kW to up to two stalls, with a maximum of 120kW per stall.

Most supercharger stations aren't battery buffered, but the new ones (and particularly large ones) increasingly are. This isn't designed so much as to provide backup power when the grid is down (although it will do so at low demand times) as it is to buffer out the surges between vehicles, reducing the peak draw and thus getting lower demand charges on their power bill. It also lets them incorporate the solar awnings (not the majority of the power delivered, but still useful).

Re:2 MW power supply?

[Barsteward]

seems like you've upset a few "haven't a clue" posters by displaying knowledge about a subject they know nothing about. :)

Re:2 MW power supply?

[Solandri]

It also lets them incorporate the solar awnings (not the majority of the power delivered, but still useful).

The solar awnings are mostly for show. If you do the math, they provide an almost insignificant amount of the electricity needed to charge the cars.

Figure 5x2.5 meter awning per car stall. By your account, there's 20 charging stalls per station. That's 20*5m*2.5m = 250 m^2 of panels. Figure they're using 160 W/m^2 commercial panels. Assume they're tilted facing south angled at the station's latitude. Multiply by the average capacity factor for the U.S. of 0.145, and a battery charging efficiency of 80%, and you get (250 m^2)*(160 W/M^2)*(0.145)*(24 hours)*(0.8) = 111.4 kWh. Or enough to give about 2.8 cars a half-charge (assuming 80 kWh batteries). Do note that the supercharger efficiency is probably even lower, as generally the faster you charge the battery the lower the efficiency (some of the energy goes into heating up the battery).

If you figure the station runs at half capacity for 12 hours out of the day at 30 min per charge, that's (0.5 capacity)*(20 stalls)*(12 hours/day)/(0.5 hours/charge) = 240 charges per day. So the solar panels provide only (2.8)/(240) = 0.0146 = 1.2% of the electricity needed to charge the cars. Even less if their electricity is going into a storage battery instead of directly to a car (that incurs another battery charging/discharging efficiency loss).

Solar's biggest drawback is that the energy is extremely diffuse. To do it right on a utility or car charging station scale, you need a big field covered with solar panels. Unless you're constrained by the available land area (which definitely isn't the case for a rest area by a highway), putting the panels on awnings above parking spaces or on top of buildings needlessly increases cost. Unless of course your primary goal is publicity - showing off the panels to people passing through.

Re:2 MW power supply?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hard to believe anything in the article since it gets basic facts wrong. More than 1,000 supercharger stations in North America? Nope! There are 1,047 world wide. Something that is not hidden and is easy to look up. There are 435 in the US, a bare handful in Canada, just a couple in Mexico - the total for North America is about 460. More than 1,000? Wrong.

Re:2 MW power supply?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes Komrade, but I see Putin has turned the divide and concur knob to eleven. I hope he pays you well also.
 

Re:2 MW power supply?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like the "for show" BP does when it places solar panels on gas stations?

Being that Tesla is also a company involved in selling solar panels and batteries, it seems like a good idea use stuff you're selling; even if it is for show.

You don't have to pay for it - what's the problem?

Re:2 MW power supply?

[jeremyp]

So an even bigger grid connection. 40 x 50 = 2000, 20 x 145 = 2900.

And that's just for 40 cars.

Re:2 MW power supply?

[Anonymous Coward]

Gas stations don't use much electricity. Those panels aren't just for show, they actually power a significant portion of the station.

Elon Must as Judge Doom

[chill]

You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night. Soon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations, inexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful.

Re:Elon Must as Judge Doom

[Anonymous Coward]

That's great because I will sync my high fiber diet with car charging needs.

Re:Elon Must as Judge Doom

[Anonymous Coward]

Pedro Sez, "get a charge from Eeeelon" - 25 miles

Re:Elon Must as Judge Doom

[Mr D from 63]

A truck stop for cars is what I'm seeing.

Re:Elon Must as Judge Doom

[nospam007]

"A truck stop for cars is what I'm seeing."

Exactly If you ate that burger in the In-and-Out and the employee didn't wash his hands, you'll have amply time for the out-portion of that burger.

Re:Elon Must as Judge Doom

[thinkwaitfast]

On my cross country trip this year,I noticed this was the norm for all rest stops on the eastern side of the US. I'm used to a dog run, picnic area and bathroom.All of the eastern rest stops were like mall food courts with a gas station. One even had a perfume shop(?!!) Who knew there was such a thing as a perfume store. And at a car rest stop? Actually, alI I could think was how horrible it would have to be to work there (but the guy owned it, so I guess he knew what he was getting into).

Re:Elon Must as Judge Doom

[Type44Q]

has a play wall for kids, a pet relief area

And these two can be one and the same.

Re:Elon Must as Judge Doom

[Anonymous Coward]

Time to dig up an old movie.

Brilliant

[goose-incarnated]

That's 80 fill-ups per hour. Truly, we are ready for a population using 90% electric cars.

Re:Brilliant

[Anonymous Coward]

They have to start somewhere. You don't have to have the capacity to charge a population of 90% electric cars when the population doesn't currently have 90% electric cars. Just pace your scaling just ahead of demand and you are fine, no need to go overboard otherwise you suck at business.

Re:Brilliant

[Anonymous Coward]

80 an hour is plenty for now, since the market share for electric cars is still relatively low. When demand for electric cars goes up, we'll start to see more efficient charging stations that will eventually reach time parity with gas stations in terms of refueling.

Re:Brilliant

[thegarbz]

That's 80 fill-ups per hour. Truly, we are ready for a population using 90% electric cars.

Not sure if you're actively trolling or ignorant, but 80 fill-ups per hour is well overkill for 90% electric cars. The vast majority of electric charging will not be done mid trip. Some insider info: Oil companies are bracing themselves for not only a reduction in fuel demand, but also a massive reduction in retail service, which is of interest when you realise that is where their highest margin products get sold.

Re:Brilliant

[Anonymous Coward]

a massive reduction in retail service, which is of interest when you realise that is where their highest margin products get sold.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or ignorant, but gasoline and diesel are the lowest margin products they produce.

Re:Brilliant

[goose-incarnated]

That's 80 fill-ups per hour. Truly, we are ready for a population using 90% electric cars.

Not sure if you're actively trolling or ignorant, but 80 fill-ups per hour is well overkill for 90% electric cars. The vast majority of electric charging will not be done mid trip.

I frequently travel to a popular holiday destination (660km between centres) that has a fuel station midway for people to fill up. Off-peak it sees 1200 cars per hour (some fill-up, some don't). Peak vacation time it gets 2500 cars per hour, and it handles this because filling up a tank with dead dinosaurs takes about 2 minutes.

Whether we like it or not families will drive to their vacations simply due to cost. The fact that they can charge up at home is irrelevant when they have to charge up mid-trip. Right now there really isn't a problem (too few electrics on the road). When almost everyone has an electric the mid-point station won't be handle to simultaneously charge 2500 cars per hour.

Re:Brilliant

[GuB-42]

There is a whole bunch of problems to fast charging.
For now, current battery chemistry (LCO) typically require 3h for a full charge. Going faster require means you are not using the full battery capacity. You may even damage it. That's why fast charge is typically only available for the first 50% or so. There are other battery chemistries (ex: LFP) that charge faster but you pay the price in term of energy density.
There is also the issue of heat. If you dump a megawatt of power into something relatively small like a car, the tiniest inefficiency is going to produce a lot of heat you have to deal with.
And finally, there are all the usual issues dealing with high power. If you increase the voltage, you need to invest more into safety and insulation, if you increase the current, you need thicker wires

To put things into perspective, considering a typical flow rate of a gas pump and its energy density, a gas car "charges" at around 20MW. Assuming electric cars are 4 times more efficient, one would require 5MW of charging power to achieve parity, 40 times more than superchargers. It won't happen anytime soon.

Re:Brilliant

[azadrozny]

The oil companies don't have much of a stake in the retail side of the gas station business. As I understand, most gas stations are small independent operations. They have a retail store to make up for their small margin on the gas.

Re:Brilliant

[Anonymous Coward]

I think he's talking about the Coffee and food.

Re:Brilliant

[Anonymous Coward]

> When almost everyone has an electric the mid-point station won't be handle to simultaneously charge 2500 cars per hour.

Of course we are at a particular time in the evolution of electric cars. You seem to think that, much like the combustion engine, little progress will be made for the next century. The median range for electric cars these days is just short of a single tank of gas, around 380km. The upper end of range is the new Tesla announced yesterday that has about 1.5x the capacity of a tank of gas, around 900km. 20 years ago you could go maybe 64km on the 3 models of car you couldn't own. 10 years ago, the upper end of range was what the median range is now. 10 years from now, 900km will be the median range with the upper end will be around 2,000km.

Re:Brilliant

[nospam007]

"Whether we like it or not families will drive to their vacations simply due to cost."

Until the Hyperloop is finished, you mean? :-)

Re:Brilliant

[torkus]

2007 called and they want their predictions back.

You can fast-charge to about 80% for one - and not in the theoretical 'we did it in the lab' but in the actual 'pull into a supercharger stall and it happens' kind of way. Battery life is something Tesla very, VERY carefully tracks and ... guess what? The packs are quite durable.

Heat management is also built into the packs since the peak power *output* is greater (though not sustained) than the supercharger input...oh, and they have to do thermal management from below freezing to over 100 degrees anyway.

And to wrap it up, no one is saying EVs are charging at parity with ICE. We aren't there yet...hence the point of TFA about rest stops so people can make use of the 30-60 minutes of down time.

Re:Brilliant

[Bing Tsher E]

That isn't "pace your scaling." It's called "scale to a natural saturation point." And that's about 10% of cars.

It's slick marketing, though. Because the urban planners really DO want us to buy into something that can only scale up for about 10% of the population to have the privilege of owning cars.

Re:Brilliant

[torkus]

80 fill-ups per hour is (I believe) fairly high for a typical gas station.

It's very, very low for a major highway rest-stop though. The ones along the NJTP have 20+ pumps and often a line...since it's illegal to pump your own gas in NJ.

Home charging does alleviate a lot of that demand (but where will people buy overpriced chips and candy?) and I don't think most people have quite worked out that logic yet. Assuming you don't take long road trips, you may NEVER go to a 'gas' station to fill up your EV. The typical car usage is still ~33mi/day which you could replenish from a boring 120v 15a outlet in ~10 hours...and less than one hour with the standard home EV charger.

Re:Brilliant

[Bing Tsher E]

Don't let the laws of physics get in the way. We have an agenda to push. So what that only a small minority of the population can own an electric car for it to be viable. We've got an ICE infrastructure to demolish so we can cram people into high-density housing along rapid-transit corridors.

It's not a conspiracy. It's what some of the pushy fuckers simply insist is inevitable.

Re:Brilliant

[torkus]

"Frequently" drive to vacation...3 or 4 times a year? This straw-man has been covered countless times.

Also, do feel free to document 2500 fill-ups per hour. That's 100+ pumps assuming a highly-efficient 2-3 minutes total per car. Even if so, that's a highly unusual situation to have a single rest stop mid-way between two 600km distant points.

And when EVs are commonplace enough, I highly suspect it won't be a problem. Instead of having to centralize a huge tank of flammable fuel, individual businesses can also offer charging in their own private lots to draw travelers in.

Yes, the grid needs upgrading for that, but in return all the fuel creation/distribution cost/waste/pollution/etc. winds down

Re:Brilliant

[torkus]

Except for the part where that's how their product gets sold. Give or take a rounding error, zero consumers buy gas from anywhere other than a gas station. Or that's to say, virtually 100% of consumer (and a large portion of commercial) gas sales are via gas stations.

So while they don't 'care' they also can't exist without them or some alternative.

Re:Brilliant

[Rei]

Meanwhile in the real world:

1) Teslas use NCA, not LCO or LFP

2) Model 3 can add 70-75 miles per 10 minutes charging at under 50% DoD (slow taper down after that, still fast), easily enough for road tripping without extra delays beyond meals and bathroom / stretch breaks.

3) It's unusual to charge to full (which takes about 75 minutes, not 3 hours) when on road trips; you generally charge to 80% or so. Or less if you're planning a stop at a certain point for which 80% would be overkill.

4) Model 3 (which can take up to 525A, versus the current 300A that superchargers can provide - aka, has the potential to charge *even faster*) uses a fan and radiator to get rid of waste heat while supercharging. There are louvres under the air dam that open up when there's heat that needs to be rid of and close otherwise.

5) Any need for faster charging than a vehicle can get rid of waste heat can be done with a cooled cable, with the charge port incorporating a heat exchanger - aka, waste heat goes into the cable coolant and back to the charger (which would have coolant tanks and a chiller). You don't need a thicker wire - just a cooled wire, and current can be increased by 1-2 orders of magnitude (passive air cooling of cables is a very slow way to get rid of heat)

6) It's not the "fill time" that matters for gasoline vehicles, it's the overhead. I've actually taken measurements on this - "speed running" gas station fills. With a gas station immediately on the way (no detouring), no traffic (waiting for a single car turning in front of you can significantly slow you down - let alone having to wait for a pump), paying with a RFID tag rather than credit card (faster), unscrewing the cap while validating the tag to save time, and filling up a car with a very small fuel tank, I find that the minimum time before I rejoin my path home is three minutes. Meanwhile, in your everyday life, an EV fuels in 10 seconds: 5 seconds to plug in in the evening, 5 seconds to unplug in the morning. In the comfort of your garage.

Re:Brilliant

[Rei]

Indeed, current superchargers are mainly in the parking lots of other businesses. Tesla gets to install them for free because the businesses love the idea of having people hanging around their business for 10-40 minutes, generally wanting meals and entertainment in the meantime.

With the new approach, however, Tesla wants to capture that business for themselves. Understandable, really.

Re:Brilliant

[thegarbz]

I frequently travel to a popular holiday destination

How frequently? When people (especially Americans) use frequently and holiday destination in the same sentence I am further reminded that being able to service 80 cars per hour is incredible overkill.

But side note: Notice that I didn't question the 90% figure? Maybe you're the 10% who can't justify the electric car? Or the further 10% who like me frequently travel to a holiday destination only accessible by a large SUV despite the fact I actually own a small hatchback.

Re:Brilliant

[thegarbz]

As I understand, most gas stations are small independent operations.

Your understanding massively varies by country and company. There are some oil companies that are 100% owned and operated by oil company employees. Others favour franchising agreements taking a cut of the profit (which brings us back to square one that it affects oil companies). Not sure on the specifics of California but I have yet to see any place anywhere in the world where the majority of gas stations are independent.

But still the point is the same. Retail margins are huge compared to gas margins. The amount of effort put in by oil companies to accommodate and prolong time spent on the forecourt is incredible as buying a cup of coffee nets them more profit than the margin on the fuel.

If you live in a country where petrol follows Edgeworth pricing cycles then depending on the day of the cycle an operator may make a loss on fuel sold and make up for it only in retail sales.

Re:Brilliant

[vtcodger]

On top of which, according to Wikipedia, the AVERAGE July high temperature in Kettleman City is 99F(37C). Trust me on this folks, 30 minutes is about 27 minutes longer than any sensible person is going to want to spend in that garden spot looking at a vista of dirt and long dead grass on a toasty Summer afternoon. (It's nice around there in February in wet years though).

OTOH, 30 minutes is a lot better than 40 hours or so trying to top up the charge from a typical 15 amp 117 volt connection in a local motel.

Re:Brilliant

[vtcodger]

Well, Tesla **IS** paying for this, albeit using borrowed OPM ("Other People's Money" for those not familiar with Anglo-Americanisms). If you are arguing that Electric Vehicle's don't deserve a public subsidy, you may have a point although under current law, Tesla's Federal subsidy is going to go away soon anyway. And I suppose that Tesla has the same right as any other private company to squander its investors'/lenders' money.

If you are arguing that EVs are kind of dumb if your plans include long distance driving, you probably have a point although I must say that compared to cryptocurrencies, the assembly of massive dossiers on the private actions of computer users, America's failure to control firearms, and the lunacies of the far right and left in America, Tesla''s operations seem almost rational.

Re:Brilliant

[GuB-42]

About fast charging, I've seen that Tesla use Panasonic NCR18650B batteries, looking at the datasheet ( http://www.batteryspace.com/pr... ), I see a maximum charging current of 0.5C and it takes nearly 2 hours to get to 80%. I'm genuinely curious as how they manage to get so far out of specs and still maintain decent longevity. Please enlighten me because seriously, every single technical writing I've seen related to Li-ion batteries don't match real-life results, especially regarding fast charge.

Re:Brilliant

[vtcodger]

"The median range for electric cars these days is just short of a single tank of gas, around 380km."

Ahem ... A typical North American sedan will have a practical range of about 300-400 miles on a tank of gas -- that's 480-645km. Of course, some folks prefer absurd vehicles with worse mileage. But I assume they have larger fuel tanks to compensate.

I also don't believe for a second that the median range of current EVs is 380km although I'm sure that a few can manage that on a nice Spring day starting with 100% charge on a reasonably new battery pack.

Re:Brilliant

[Bing Tsher E]

"It's about da oil companies."

So 1980s. Yep. Big Oil. They make it expensive for me to own my Cordoba. I can barely afford it on my UAW wages.

Re:Brilliant

[Bing Tsher E]

The nice thing about going to your vacation on the Hyperloop is that you don't have to fret about where you are going to go. No, you won't be going to an obscure park in Montana, let along Northern Minnesota.

No, you'll go where the Hyperloop takes you. Either Vegas or Palm Beach.

Get used to it, prole. You don't have the freedom to drive where you like anymore. That is reserved for the 1% now that we've killed the ICE.

Re:Brilliant

[Anonymous Coward]

I get 14 Miles Per Gallon and I go 550 miles on a fill-up.

Re:Brilliant

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, just like using planes and trains now. You really need to up your game, troll.

Re:Brilliant

[Anonymous Coward]

I call bull shit. A 2 lane road 100% full at 60 mph would barely provide 2500 cars per hour even if every single one of them stopped.

Re:Brilliant

[Barsteward]

so we are going to hit 90% EVs overnight then.. amazing..

Re:Brilliant

[Barsteward]

you could read this as a start.. . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:Brilliant

[Barsteward]

if the local motel gets smart, they'll install a surcharger

Re:Brilliant

[Barsteward]

they are going to have to stop a few times for a toilet break along the way so they can charge a bit each time.

Re:Brilliant

[GuB-42]

This wikipedia article only says that superchargers are able to pump a huge amount of current into batteries, but it doesn't explain why batteries don't get damaged in the process despite charging much faster that what is recommended everywhere I looked.
Usually, 0.5C is recommended, over 1C is said to cause damage, and superchargers seem to be able to charge at 1.5C.
And it isn't just superchargers, some smartphones can also charge well over 1C. And then again, all talk is about how to get more current to the battery, not how the battery can handle it. Though in the case of smartphones, battery damage may very well be part of planned obsolescence.

Re:Brilliant

[thinkwaitfast]

:( My last three vacations went to Montana (two to northern Montana).

Re:Brilliant

[thinkwaitfast]

I took a train to northern Montana last year. Pretty sure they had an airport there too.

Re:Brilliant

[thinkwaitfast]

How'd you like the Corinthian leather?

Re:Brilliant

[azadrozny]

This article suggests that only about 3% of gas stations in the US are owned by big oil companies, I couldn't find world-wide stats. I do understand your larger point however. The local gas station model is doomed. While some will survive as electric fast charge locations, most street corner stations will disappear as people convert.

Re:Brilliant

[stonedown]

I thought Tesla varies the charging rate. I think these batteries can soak up a lot of current when they are mostly discharged.

Re:Brilliant

[Type44Q]

Likely via more "intelligent" (i.e. carefully managed) charging than the typical consumer-level chargers. I recall that superchargers take you to 80% in twenty minutes and to 100% in twenty more...

Re:Brilliant

[BancBoy]

I hear it's rich!

Re: Brilliant

[Chuck Chunder]

In an electric car world most charging will be done at home, most cars will start out at full capacity every day. The requirements for opportunistic refueling drop significantly compared to petrol cars because cars donâ(TM)t have to refuel on average trips because the tank just happens to be low. Regardless, complaining that there isnâ(TM)t currently capacity for a future requirements is hardly a cutting criticism.

Re: Brilliant

[Chuck Chunder]

Can you explain your âoenatural saturation pointâ?

Re:Brilliant

[Anonymous Coward]

Panasonic NCR18650B batteries, looking at the datasheet ( http://www.batteryspace.com/pr... [batteryspace.com] ), I see a maximum charging current of 0.5C and it takes nearly 2 hours to get to 80%

superchargers take you to 80% in twenty minutes

Six times faster than the manufacturer datasheet. The manufacturer, who wants to put their products in the best possible light.

Sounds like a scam.

Re:Brilliant

[Bing Tsher E]

You seriously think you are going to take a plane or a train to Northern Minnesota.

Maybe a seaplane.

Or an ore train, but you'll have to rail hop to get on and off the boxcar.

No, the 'Hyperloop' will have very limited fixed terminals. Much more fixed than an airplane, where you just need a large flat strip of land.

Re: Brilliant

[Bing Tsher E]

Can you explain your fucked up Apple brand punctuation?

The point is that we run out of the elemental resources needed to produce electric cars on the scale that the existing automotive fleet exists.

Thus, cars become a rare luxury. And the common stiff rides the bus, where the bus allows him to travel.

If filling up takes half an hour....

[Anonymous Coward]

May as well get conformable... on Amtrak.

Re:If filling up takes half an hour....

[thinkwaitfast]

I did a three day Amtrak trip last year. It was anything but comfortable. If I do i again, I'll save up for a sleeper car.

Re:If filling up takes half an hour....

[BancBoy]

The sleeper cars are the way to go!

more stalls and more glory holes, please!

[Anonymous Coward]

More glory holes would make this trip so much better!

What kind of disgusting name is that?

[Anonymous Coward]

In-N-Out Burgers. Eww.

Re:What kind of disgusting name is that?

[Teancum]

What is your point? While not gourmet food of a 5-star restaurant (it is still fast food), it is definitely better tasting than McDonald's.

It is also California culture you are talking about. They have weird names for everything.

Re:What kind of disgusting name is that?

[will_die]

Not the fries. In/Out burger fries are terrible, thin and dry.

Re:What kind of disgusting name is that?

[umghhh]

In-N-Out is a reference to an activity keeping our species going. It requires frequent in and out action for a short while. You just need to watch yourself and get a written agreement of all participants for a case 30y later when you may occupy a position of power to exonerate yourself. But that is another story.

Not At Coalinga?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's where we used to stop to gas up.
A century ago, trains stopped to coal up at Coaling Station A.
But anything coal related isn't exactly popular in California these days.

Re:Not At Coalinga?

[tsqr]

Coalinga and Kettleman City aren't very far apart. Kettleman City is right on I5, which makes it more convenient. At least, it would be convenient were it not for the extremely stinky stockyard just up the road.

Re:Not At Coalinga?

[Fast Ben]

There is a Tesla charging station at Harris Ranch in Coalinga.
https://www.harrisranch.com/complex/tesla-charging-station-battery-swap/
There's a hotel there as well, and the Harris Ranch restaurant serves one of the best steaks money can buy. I stop in there every time I have to drive the I5.

As much as I love In-n-Out burger

[mjwx]

As much as I love In-n-Out burger... I don't really want to see it hispterised. I mean they do great food at reasonable prices (seriously Americans, this is what you do well, can you please export more of this and less war, violence and bad daytime TV). Seriously, the In-N-Out on Sepulveda blvd is a well known stopover for Aussie tourists travelling further afield in the US via LAX.

Oh well, I guess we'll just have to wait in line with our heads hung as people with oiled and manicured beards that raise questions about the menu and complain about the lack of vegan-paleo options.

Overages

[JBMcB]

Fun fact: if you leave your Tesla parked at a supercharging station for more than five minutes after it has charged, they charge you a $0.40/minute fee. Automatically billed to your credit card on file, which is required for using a supercharger.

But what happens if you own a Tesla that has been rebuilt?

(Car Guru - love this guy)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Refreshments?

[boudie2]

Will there be free Tesla Kool-Aid? It seems quite popular around here.

And then from those in a hurry... Extra profit!

[redmasq]

I can see them having the charging stations, but targeting those in a hurry and have a compatible car: for the low, low price of $39.95 + tax, take advantage of our battery swap service; we'll have you driving again in 8.5 minutes.

Re:And then from those in a hurry... Extra profit!

[torkus]

Less time than that actually, but the demand was minimal so they scrapped it. Superchargers are easier and cheaper to build and, despite cries otherwise, people WITH EVs don't actually seem to be having all the doomsday charging problems that people WITHOUT EVs keep assuring us exist.

Re:And then from those in a hurry... Extra profit!

[drinkypoo]

Less time than that actually, but the demand was minimal so they scrapped it.

There is literally no evidence that they ever performed a single swap.

Re:And then from those in a hurry... Extra profit!

[Anonymous Coward]

Less time than that actually, but the demand was minimal so they scrapped it.

There is literally no evidence that they ever performed a single swap.

Aside from the video. Google dude.

Re:And then from those in a hurry... Extra profit!

[drinkypoo]

Aside from the video. Google dude.

Sorry, I meant "on a customer car", where the battery pack is held in partly with adhesives, unlike the specially-prepared car used for the demo.

Really tired of this shit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Every time Elon poops or Tesla farts there's a post on Slashdot. Give it a fucking rest already.

Re:Really tired of this shit.

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Give it a fucking rest already

Perhaps we could use this new rest stop for that?

Obviously never been to a gas station

[RogueWarrior65]

30 minutes? Puhleeeze! People are willing to jockey their cars into the smallest spaces and enter the gas station the wrong way when one-way is clearly marked so they can fuel up and be gone as fast as possible. This needs to be done in 5 minutes max.

Re:Obviously never been to a gas station

[torkus]

Well that's the funny thing! My EV never HAS been to a gas station.

You see, I can charge it at home.

Sweet Living

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yes. I look forward to wasting an hour or more of my time waiting for Jimmy Bob and the rest to finish powering up. It makes me feel like I am saving the world, one hour at a time. Thanks MUSK, I look forward to my Universal Income as well to pay for the booth snacks. Cheers.

Great, less parking

[vossman77]

When I lived in San Diego, my biggest complaint about In-N-Out Burger is that they never have enough parking spaces and their drive through line is so long that it also blocks parking spaces.

Now they are taking their limited parking and giving spaces to Tesla-only car charging. Own a Chevy Bolt/Volt, Ford Energi, Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid, Fiat 500e, Nissan Leaf, no charging for you.

Re:Great, less parking

[MMC Monster]

When I lived in San Diego, my biggest complaint about In-N-Out Burger is that they never have enough parking spaces and their drive through line is so long that it also blocks parking spaces.

Now they are taking their limited parking and giving spaces to Tesla-only car charging. Own a Chevy Bolt/Volt, Ford Energi, Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid, Fiat 500e, Nissan Leaf, no charging for you.

I suppose Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, Fiat, and Nissan can team up and by a slot on the same side of the street as In-N-Out?

Frankly, I can't remember ever seeing a branded charger from any of those manufacturers.

Tesla paid to put it up. Tesla can (and does) make it car specific. Capitalism at it's best.

Re:Great, less parking

[Solandri]

my biggest complaint about In-N-Out Burger is that they never have enough parking spaces and their drive through line is so long that it also blocks parking spaces.

That's just an indication that demand is outstripping supply, and that more In-N-Out Burger restaurants are needed to meet demand. The "problem" stems from the chain being privately owned, and the family who owns it refusing to franchise. So they personally have to locate, finance, purchase/lease the land, and construct every new In-N-Out Burger restaurant that's made. And apparently the family members they've assigned to this task aren't able to do it fast enough to keep pace with the growing population of diners.

Re:Great, less parking

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually they seem to be in no hurry at all to expand, demand or no demand. The chain goes back to 1948 but they didn't even get out of Los Angeles until 1990, and into nearby Nevada in 1992. They only really cover 3 states, with scattered stores in 3 more. They also insist on having distribution centers built reasonably close to all new restaurants (fresh ingredients, I think). With this chain's highly regarded food quality they could easily have obtained financing to expand more rapidly without franchising, but they just don't seem to be in a hurry to expand that much. At this pace we will have In-N-Out's in my home state of South Carolina sometime around the year 2200 (although you can buy gift cards for the chain here - which is cruel, with the nearest location 1000 miles away in Dallas). My wife and I love the vanilla / chocolate / strawberry mix milk shakes (part of the fabled "hidden menu").

Stealing from the People

[Anonymous Coward]

You miss the point completely, this is all about getting free real estate from the state of California. To hell with paying for real estate, make the state pay you for the privilege of you using theirs.

Re:Stealing from the People

[Bing Tsher E]

Hey, a robust merging of the State and the big Capitalists kept the trains running on time, didn't it?

Tourist traps

[fluffernutter]

I'll keep my ICE so i can fill up and go somewhere that isn't a tourist trap thanks.

Rethinking the gas station

[doggo1939]

You standardize battery packs across the manufacturers of electric cars. Then you have "stations" where there are pre-charged battery packs. You drive in, take your depleted battery pack out and place it in a charging rack, and take a charged pack and put it in your car and drive off. Each car comes with a standard battery pack that ultimately ends up going out into the battery pack system. Sort of like gas cylinders for gas grills.

Re:Rethinking the gas station

[Joe_Dragon]

gas cylinders for gas grills can also be refiled ( can be cheaper)

Re:Rethinking the gas station

[Anonymous Coward]

See, I don't get this.

Do we go to a gas station and swap out an internal combustion car's battery with nary a thought? I mean, we could. It's just a battery clamp and 2 terminals, not that hard to do. Yet we think of a battery swap as "maintenance", requiring downtime and a trip to a garage or something. And yes, swapping a battery in an internal combustion car isn't often needed, but still.

The thing is that batteries are heavy. The battery pack for an electric car is going to be seriously heavy, and you'll have to have safety systems to deal with both the weight and the possibility of sparking. Large banks of batteries are going to be down low, meaning you'll have to jack up the vehicle, or at least have some kind of slick access port system.

And this is a major subsystem in an electric car, yet you are going to have to buy-in to the idea of "community use" of a shared asset that degrades over time. This opens the possibility of turning in a near-new, high quality battery pack and receiving an old, decrepit battery pack in exchange. Not a huge problem if the next service station accepts all swaps on an equal basis, but what if they decide it was you who ruined the battery pack and now you have to pay for it? No one wants to be left holding the bag for vehicle damage, it's like renting a car that has a dent. The rental agencies attitude seems to be, "every rental going out is in perfect condition, just sign the papers", but "every rental coming back in is a fleabag of mechanical problems caused by the renter bringing the vehicle back. Now they are going to pay!"

None of this speaks to me of, "just a quick run down to the service station to refill the car". Instead it speaks of, "make an appointment at the garage".

Re:Rethinking the gas station

[doggo1939]

You don't get it? I guess not.

When I say a standardized battery pack, I'm obviously not talking about what's currently in an electric car, for the reasons you point out. Let's leave the notion of a standard combustion engine car's battery out of it, it's not relevant to the discussion. The battery pack is not going to be embedded in the body of the car, or underneath it, like current EVs.

The battery pack is not going to have simple terminals. These theoretical batteries are modular, they snap in, think batteries like on a digital camera, or a phone with replaceable batteries, but larger. Maybe by the time we get around to this, battery technology will have provided us with a much lighter battery. And if batteries are still heavy, perhaps you have a robotic system that can remove the discharged battery, and place a fresh battery into the battery receptacle. Or maybe you have the modern version of a gas station attendant who operates a lift-assist device for the swap.

As for your notion of 'buy-in to the idea of "community use" of a shared asset that degrades over time', there are ways to deal with these issues, such as monitoring battery health and pulling failing batteries out of the stream. Or maybe the battery pack isn't part of the car at sale, much like the first tank of gas you get from the dealership when you buy a car, you get a battery pack with whatever charge is in it, and replace as necessary. Maybe the charge station company charges an annual fee for battery pack maintenance and replacement. Maybe that cost is part of the cost for the swap at the "pump".

You're looking at things as they are currently, and the way things are currently is not going to work. Nobody is going to want to wait half an hour while their car charges during their commute. (What if your commute starts from the person you picked up at the bar after work's apartment, where you parked on the street, having not charged to full capacity previously.)
 

REALITY

[Zorro]

California has damn few rest stops and MOST of them are closed most of the time.

The same can be said for Truck Stops, after Exit 9 in Arizona on I40 inbound you just don't find many till Barstow.

The economics of California actively discourages transportation infrastructure.

Going outbound you buy just enough gas to get to Exit 9 in Arizona to fuel up where prices drop dramatically!

Who givaes a fuck about fast charging?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not me, I've always said that cars should have hot swap batteries.
I just can't get over the fact that Elon touts faster hypeloop travel to ease congestion but then sidewalls the cars into truck stops to, 'take a break'. Just fucking retarded. Especially considering we have not hit peak 'charge' yet for ev's by a _lot_. Congestion at these spots is going to escalate, and the public have guns.

Rest stops suck for a reason

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who has been to Japan or Europe knows that rest stops don't have to consist of a smelly bathroom, a vending machine and a couple cement pick-nick tables. Rest stops in the US suck because small towns were (rightly) convinced that the interstate highway system would kill any small town that was bypassed even by a few miles. There are various laws, regulations and rules that keep the rest stop as crappy as it is.

No matter how things change

[darthsilun]

In the 70s, I could never drive from L.A. to San Jose, or vice versa without having to stop for a fill-up in Kettleman Shitty.

40 years later it's still the same. But wait, Now I drive a ICE car that gets 30+ mpg and I can drive all the way through on less than a tank of gas. Or I can buy a Tesla and time warp back to 1977. Does that come with an 8-track tape deck and a Eagles Hotel California cartridge?

Guess I'll pass on the Tesla.

Re:No matter how things change

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess your 70s cruiser also drove itself up the 5 fwy whilst not emitting tons of stuff out the mufflers? Guess you should definitely stick with your "refined" ICE technology, then. I did lolz over the Kettlemen Shitty, though.

Re:No matter how things change

[darthsilun]

Actually the car was a 60s "cruiser," it was a 67 Firebird convertible with a 400 (6.6L) Ram Air. It was a blast to drive. Pretty sure I'd still much rather drive that than any self driving car.

Yeah, I still emit some hydrocarbons these days, but not as much as the Firebird. But I'm guessing Tesla's Supercharger station won't be fully solar powered any time soon, so even driving your snootymobile doesn't come for free in the emissions department. I hope you're not holding your breath waiting to take delivery of your 3, in what, seven or eight years? If ever.

They are building a 42-stall charger in Norway

[Terje Mathisen]

This will be by the E6 highway, south of Oslo and near Rygge airport, construction has started and it is supposed to be ready in a month or so:

https://electrek.co/2017/10/28...

Perfectly located if we need a charge while driving down to the Hvaler archipelago.

This evening we needed to do some shopping on the way to Rauland in the Telemark mountains, so we naturally did so in Hokksund where Tesla recently opened a 20-stall charger by the Eiker Mall. Total time off/on the E134 highway was about 25 minutes and the additional charge meant that we didn't have to worry about the bad driving conditions west of Rjukan where we had to follow a snowplow across the mountain.

What's becoming very obvious after 1.5 years/48K km in a S70D is that Tesla simply gets it right, and that none of the (ICE) incumbents are even close at this point in time.

Terje

Protip: don't expand outside the US...

[itsdapead]

In-N-Out Burgers. Eww.

Too close to "better out than in" for comfort. (I'd give that 5 minutes if I were you!)

Meanwhile... this sounds like the UK concept of the "Motorway service station" - a car park, filling station, and a franchise-filled mini-mall. Renowned throughout the kingdom for their cuisine*.

(* Note: post from UK, may contain sarcasm**)

(** Actually, they were destination restaurants for about 5 minutes after they first appeared in the 60s)

Dean Pelton gives this idea 5 thumbs up

[Babel-17]

Oh wait, those aren't thumbs!