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Is Elon Musk Greatly Exaggerating Tesla's Battery Technology? (bloomberg.com)
"Tesla's newest promises break the laws of batteries," writes Bloomberg. Long-time Slashdot reader rudy_wayne summarizes their report.
"Elon Musk knows how to make promises. Even by his own standards, the promises made last week while introducing two new Tesla vehicles...are monuments of envelope pushing. To deliver, according to close observers of battery technology, Tesla would have to far exceed what is currently thought possible." The Tesla Semi, which Musk claims can haul 80,000 pounds at highway speeds for 500 miles, then recharge 400 miles of range in 30 minutes, would require "a charging system that's 10 times more powerful than one of the fastest battery-charging networks on the road today -- Tesla's own Superchargers."
The Tesla Roadster is promised to be the quickest production car ever built. But that achievement would mean squeezing into its tiny frame a battery twice as powerful as the largest battery currently available in any electric car. These claims are so far beyond current industry standards for electric vehicles that they would require either advances in battery technology or a new understanding of how batteries are put to use, said Sam Jaffe, battery analyst for Cairn Energy Research in Boulder, Colorado.
But Jaffe reaches an interesting conclusion. "I don't think they're lying. I just think they left something out of the public reveal that would have explained how these numbers work."
The Tesla Roadster is promised to be the quickest production car ever built. But that achievement would mean squeezing into its tiny frame a battery twice as powerful as the largest battery currently available in any electric car. These claims are so far beyond current industry standards for electric vehicles that they would require either advances in battery technology or a new understanding of how batteries are put to use, said Sam Jaffe, battery analyst for Cairn Energy Research in Boulder, Colorado.
But Jaffe reaches an interesting conclusion. "I don't think they're lying. I just think they left something out of the public reveal that would have explained how these numbers work."
He has to do something to keep people investing in his company, and keep the stock price high. Looking at the fundamentals, it's a crazyy buy for the stock. Never turned a profit, losing billions per year, cash-on-hand to keep running until summer next year - and massive commitments for new products and deliveries they have to meet. Add in the track record of never coming close to those delivery numbers - and it's crazy anyone buys the stock. So Musk has to put on the PT Barnum act and drum up more support so they can turn to the last option they have to raise more capital - sell more stock.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Is Elon Musk Greatly Exaggerating
Yes.
I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
The mega battery charger seems feasible because if the semi will have more batteries, so you can charge each cell at the same rate and still have a faster charging speed.
Does a bear shit in the woods?
Is water wet?
We need some rule-of-thumb that's the opposite of Betteridge's law of headlines
For trucks and buses that can follow the wires. They can be powered and "recharged" as they move, as well as following the wires automatically. Also, electrified freight rail. "Charging" vehicles while on the go is a solved problem and doesn't require production of large, environmentally-costly batteries.
Elon Musk exaggerates everything in his advantage. It would be highly unusual if he didn't exaggerate a claim in an announcement made to destract from the problems with the Tesla 3.
"I don't think they're lying. I just think they left something out of the public reveal that would have explained how these numbers work."
LOL. Good one.
Making a faster charger is simple, even more so when the battery bank is many small units. You just use one charger per unit in the bank.
As for storing more power per weight, that does take some advances. Graphene has been show to do 'wonders' for battery tech.
... and then walk it back.
Musk is a smart guy but he's also a salesman. Until we see the science, this is just sales.
With a title like that, you know the article is going to be good for a laugh. Sort of like people who say "physics says..." who wouldn't even recognize the formulae that apply to the problem in question if you wrote them out in front of them.
1) Passengers in the Roadster noted how high its floor is. Aka: it's a double-high pack. Tesla already makes 100kWh packs for the S and X that are single-high. They may need to extend a bit further forward and back because the Roadster is a bit smaller of a footprint (on S and X they only slightly overlap the wheelbase, and on Model 3 they're inside the wheelbase entirely), but there's nothing at all implausible about 200kWh in such a form factor.
2) The megacharger charge port has been filmed by KMan. It has 8 giant pins in what appear to be a 2x4 arrangement, with ground and control pins likely clustered in a side slot on the right. These pins are much larger than those on the supercharger port, and there's a lot more of them. Also note the 2x4 arrangement: there appear to be four separate battery packs, and there 4 separate drive units. It appears that bloody everything on this vehicle is redundant (one assumes that there's at least a charge balancing system between the packs).
3) The means to provide the power to the megachargers is very, very simple: they're battery buffered. Tesla has always been clear on this; they're not drawing that power straight from the grid. More to the point, Semi uses the same battery chemistry as Tesla's grid-battery buffers (NMC). It's an extremely durable chemistry.
4) The article is very reasonable in its assessment of the battery capacity on the 500mi semi - they say 600-1000kWh (I've been working on the assumption of 900kWh, but it could be a bit less). Their estimate on the price, however, assumes that batteries cost $100-$170/kWh retail. Yet the raw material costs for said cells is only about $50/kWh - and that's currently at "spiked" prices which can be expected to drop as the mining industry readjusts to the new demand curve (historic prices would be more like $35/kWh). The whole point of the Gigafactory was to make li-ion batteries - finally - get closer to the cost of the raw materials that go into them. These numbers simply suggest that the Gigafactory has done exactly what it was designed to do.
5) Their estimate of the weight of the battery pack is probably correct (around 5 tonnes). However, in addition to the weight savings from using electric drive units vs. a big diesel / transmission / pollution controls / etc, Tesla always builds light. Don't expect the primary structure to be made of mild steel on this one; expect UHS steel, with 4-5 times the tensile strength, for example. Guillen stated in Europe that it has the same payload capacity as a diesel semi (aka, the tractor is no heavier), and that's probably correct.
Or, to put it another way: none of the "experts" expected the Model 3 SR to come in at almost exactly the same weight as the BMW 330i, with the same performance, more standard features, and a cheaper price. It did. And the LR isn't much heavier than a 330i, and well faster (can't wait to see the specs on the performance package!)
6) Charge rates of 7 cents per kWh: First off, their estimate that charging should cost 40 cents per kWh is just absurd. Pure nonsense. Even Tesla's current generation of superchargers is half that ($0,20/kWh), and they have to pay demand charges. That said, 7 cents per kWh comes across as extremely ambitious... until you start looking into it. And then you realize how much of a game changer it is that Tesla is doing here.
We gotta go to a crappy town where I'm a hero.
But Jaffe reaches an interesting conclusion. "I don't think they're lying. I just think they left something out of the public reveal that would have explained how these numbers work."
So maybe it's Betteridge after all.
I don't think it's such a big mystery. They just started using higher density cells, and they literally design and produce their own batteries. So higher density and bigger battery. they have also decreased battery production costs tremendously over the past few years....
...a standard car charging point isn't powerful enough to charge a semi in a reasonable time?
Instead of immediately accusing them of witchcraft, perhaps... they just figured out a way to bundle multiple 'standard' standard car-chargers in parallel, and use those to charge separate battery packs inside a semi, greatly reducing the total recharge time?
His "scientific method" = 'great minds think alike" & he makes it HAPPEN (almost every single time per->) https://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=11361777&cid=55562719/
* I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I can't HELP but admire him for it... I don't know him personally, but I'm sure we'd "get along" (He's the type of people I'd like to surround myself with, conversation w/ "his kind" , expands your mind) - no joke.
APK
P.S.=> The world needs more dudes like Musk - Especially today - he "sets the tone/pace" & inspiration... apk
... is indistinguishable from (-$x).
Wheter it is the best gamers bei g called cheaters, the wisest people being called retards, or the newest technology being called magic.
It is a direct consequence of the Dunning-Kruger effect: People being so stupid, relatively, that they cannot imagine the advancedness, nor see their own incompetence, and hence be very confident in thinking it is stupid.
Where is the news in this?
We working on 100kW charger that fits in a 75L crate.
Easily scale to MW desk size device if anyone wants it.
It's bigger on the inside.
one of those dramatic lithium ion explosions would be a great way for him to go.
Tesla may have better optimized software and reduced friction components (within the axle) to take advantage of cruising. The software surely would take advantage of in depth GPS data and analytics gathered by the many Tesla model already on the road. Also Tesla may have improved regenerative braking capabilities.
From the specs, it looks like these two vehicles use solid-state lithium batteries, which are also being put into some other high-end EVs currently in development. Next question.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
See subject: I don't know enough to comment w/ accuracy vs. your statements - however - I do see him "making waves" in curved space (as Einstein theorized somewhat erroneously on 'space-time curvature' in a CONSTANT sized space (already error there, that's been proven via his 'constant' being a "kludge" (why I don't like theoretical physics vs. applied - show me etc. = why)).
* To MOVE people into inspecting his goals IS (imo + experience @ least here on /. alone via hosts against other 'solutions')? It's enough... I understand & like him, using it myself (it does help - especially vs. "nerds" stuck in their way of thinking, well-enough versed in it, to see how the other side thinks to spot your own "fuckups" etc.).
APK
P.S.=> You seem 'po'd' & of itself, that's HOW he gets others to pick away @ his ideas to overcome their objections to move forward into practice (like combining psychology & sociology to MOVE those who may be opposed into actually HELPING him (finding 'holes' in his ideas so he can patch them & then, try them eventually))... apk
Yeah I stopped drinking the Tesla Kool-Aid when he claimed the new roadster has 10k nm of torque. That nearly 7400 ft lbs.
For comparison (all in ft lbs):
Honda Civic: 138-295
2017 Tesla Model S: 317 to 792
Bugatti Veyron Super Sport: 1106
I'm betting the eight "pins" on the port aren't pins. They are sockets with two contact surfaces.
Eight 120 kWH batteries (five in the 300-mile version) made using the newer 2170 cells wouldn't be much of a stretch of the current technology. This would provide 960 kWH total which is within the range of estimated needs.
Tesla reuses the same AC/DC converter in their superchargers that they use in their vehicles. Current superchargers use 12 of these 11kW AC/DC modules to provide about 130kW (after losses).
If you go with the same theme but update it to use 12 of the 20kW AC/DC modules now used in the model S, the existing supercharger design could be trivially increased to about 216kW after losses.
Eight 216kW superchargers operating simultaneously could deliver 1,728kW - more than enough to provide a 400-mile charge in 30 minutes.
Name another car maker who is conscious enough to care about creating healthy environment for humans to live in.
Swap the batteries.
It would br nice if that didn't include lying. He's really getting tiresome.
Name another car maker who is conscious enough to care about creating healthy environment for humans to live in.
Healthy environment" You say? I'm not saying that they don't, but I don't think that is their ultimate goal
Not having to breeze toxic carcinogenic exhaust with particulate matter that kills your brain cells - I'd say yes, Tesla cares about environment around people who drive their cars.
"I don't think they're lying. I just think they left something out of the public reveal that would have explained how these numbers work."
That is really the same thing.
The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. Has Elon Musk greatly exaggerated Tesla's battery technology in the past? From what I've read, Elon Musk has always ended up providing what he claimed albeit a bit behind schedule and over budget. However, once the baseline product is established it seems to improve over time. Jaffe's conclusion that this are factors he is unaware of is a logical one.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
The first Toyota Prius model starting being sold in 2003 - long before Musk had even heard of Tesla, let alone decided to get involved in funding them.
That Prius electric technology is so successful it is now integrated into many of Toyota's lines. More importantly, those lines are actually profitable, and aren't over priced, overly limited vehicles, that suck up govt tax payer money to manufacture.
Toyota is driving innovation - worried about Li battery storage density, charge rates, and lifetime, they've started down the path of H2 fuel cell cars, but also maintaining their Li battery development.
Fast forward to today, and everyone from BMW to Nissan sells electric and hybrid cars. And they all do it without Elon's grandstanding and drain on the tax purse.
Elon is a loud, obnoxious marketer, but if you pay attention, you'll see that many car manufacturers are doing more interesting things in this space than he is. It's just that they are based out of California so the press doesn't pay very much attention to them.
You can never know everything, and part of what you do know will always be wrong. Perhaps even the most important part.
Why do they think these capabilities are so crazy? As far as charging you simply have to either up the voltage or increase the size/number of the connectors, if push really comes to shove battery swapping would get ride of the problem entirely by allowing slower charge rates. And the instantaneous power issues (either for speed or hauling) could be handled by capacitor banks that draw from the batteries. The electricity/charging station economics are a bit more tricky but if they can up their battery production, decrease their manufacturing costs and solar panels continue to be dirt cheap they could quickly become a major player in a several hundred billion dollar industry, charging their vehicles with their own equipment (thereby cutting out any third party overhead) and selling any excess back to the grid for general usage.
Nissan has made twice as many fully electric cars as Tesla has.
Renault and partners have made more than Tesla, I think.
BYD has probably made a LOT more than Tesla has, but exact numbers are hard to come by.
TSLA is not a finance institution with systemic exposure. Try having a clue what you're talking about before you post.
It's a new company, with new capital investment, if Tesla declared any profits and paid taxes on them, the accountants in charge deserve to be beaten to death with the tax code books. People who buy Tesla stock need to know fundamentals because it is a new company. The tax deductible depreciations on new buildings, plant and equipment are massive as is research, design and development. It would doubt they would generate any taxable profit for about a decade and them either major expansion or tax bills would start accruing. The realistic most likely outcomes, Tesla will be bought by an existing automotive or major electronics company (the electric car market is expanding pretty fast and some of the existing players will die or try to buy or merge with Tesla, especially with automotive and electronics and appliances likely to do some odd corporate rearrangements).
When it comes to the new Tesla Roadster performance, weight is key and it really depends on the design weight that is being aimed for and of course when it starts to get really light, the weight of driver and passenger. If they are working on really pulling the weight down, then much higher performance figures are possible.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Where in your head did "care about" get transformed into "ultimate goal"? You're like a straw man machine.
I don't totally disagree with this, but in fairness you should know the Japanese government very heavily subsidized research at both Toyota and Honda into hybrid engines.
With that said, it was clearly n wise economic exercise.
"The first Toyota Prius model starting being sold in 2003 - long before Musk had even heard of Tesla"
Fuck, how did you manage to stuff so much wrong info into so few words? The Prius first went on sale in Japan in 1997 and internationally in 2000; Eberhard & Tarpenning founded Tesla in July 2003 with Musk becoming Chairman in April 2004 & helping to securing financing while also investing millions of his own money.
"That Prius electric technology is so successful it is now integrated into many of Toyota's lines. More importantly, those lines are actually profitable, and aren't over priced, overly limited vehicles, that suck up govt tax payer money to manufacture"
Sure but that Prius tech did fuck all to get anyone excited about EVs or to goad the industry to get off their asses & build electric vehicles that people covet. Those lines are only profitable because Toyota already have profitable cars to offset the losses of the early years. It took them 5 years to get to ~120k sold in the USA which Tesla surpassed in roughly the same amount of time - for a car that cost THREE to FIVE times as much.
Hell, the electric underpinnings barely changed for 10 years, the battery remained the same size & power for about as long and it took a dozen years for them to figure out a larger battery and that it might be a good idea to attach a power cord.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
"It's a new company, with new capital investment, if Tesla declared any profits and paid taxes on them, the accountants in charge deserve to be beaten to death with the tax code books. People who buy Tesla stock need to know fundamentals because it is a new company"
The problem is they're burning huge amount of cash relative to sales and in one of the most cash-intensive & regulated businesses in the world. The bleeding can't go on much longer and their liabilities are adding up quickly. Not making money is fine; but if they're not close to break-even by the end of 2018, after a full year of Model 3 production, then Musk has some explaining to do.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
Name another car maker who is conscious enough to care about creating healthy environment for humans to live in.
VW had an electric version of the MK1 Golf, the Rabbit in the early 80s which was an electric car. Peugeot had an electric 206 a decade before Tesla brought out their car. Every European and Asian manufacturer has a range of vehicles which are far more friendly to the environment than the gas guzzling shit produced by Chevrolet, Ford, Buick etc. Even the American versions of European cars such as the Ford Mondeo which is sold as the Ford Fusion have larger engines because selfish Americans seem to think you need at least 3 litre engines to drive to the store to pick up a pint of milk.
I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either. - Scott Adams
Given that this Tesla Roadster already exists and many have driven in it, the article's claims that one would have to break the laws of physics/'batteries' to achieve it are a bit pathetic ..... we're supposed to believe that the article's authors understand where batteries are really at and will be capable of being in a couple of years better than Elon Musk, when they're so clearly wrong on this point given that Musk has already created the car they say will be impossible in 2-3 years to built, and demonstrated it.
(and note - the Tesla Roadster that he demoed clearly contained the claimed battery specs, else it wouldn't have been able to achieve the acceleration that the people experienced in it).
VW had an electric version of the MK1 Golf, the Rabbit in the early 80s which was an electric car. Peugeot had an electric 206 a decade before Tesla brought out their car.
How many of them were being manufactured back then? I mean, as long as your production is 99,9% ICE cars, you can hardly be called "conscious enough to care about creating healthy environment for humans to live in". Get that dirty shit out of at least cities and then we can talk about it.
Ezekiel 23:20
Name another car maker who is conscious enough to care about creating healthy environment for humans to live in.
The first Toyota Prius model starting being sold in 2003 - long before Musk had even heard of Tesla, let alone decided to get involved in funding them.
A huuuge red herring on your part. It seems that you couldn't plug a Prius in and recharge it before 2010, so Priuses before that had to choke citizens with their generator exhaust before that year.
Toyota is driving innovation - worried about Li battery storage density, charge rates, and lifetime, they've started down the path of H2 fuel cell cars, but also maintaining their Li battery development.
So they still keep getting distracted by building a separate infrastructure for small-scale hydrogen consumers? Then they don't really seem to be conscious enough to care about creating healthy environment for humans to live in, again.
Ezekiel 23:20
am tired about reading about revolutionary battery chemistry improvements year after year and my computer batteries charging and dying at the same rate they did a decade ago.
Maybe Musk just decided to actually build batteries with all those new technologies instead of waiting for the established players to poison their own established market? Oh wait, that must be what those humongous battery factories are for Tesla has been building.
To make that massive fraud more believable or something. Really, what's up with all the Musk trolls? I mean, he might be a walking a thin line without a whole lot of safety net regarding his business schemes.
But it's not like he hasn't cleared a whole lot of way on that line so far.
A few were supportive of high aspirations of zip2, paypal, spacex and tesla. If it's possible and easy, it's not worth doing.
I think a lot of the comments here are appalling. Suggestions of share price manipulation, lies and general cinicism are typical reaction of a small mind confronted with somebody who wants to push the boundaries of possible. He _is_ better than you, in his aspirations - if nothing else.
Well, they did have a working prototype doing max acceleration 0-70 mph runs all night long without recharging. The numbers they quoted appeared to be real numbers for that prototype.
Unlike Porsche and others who display a stationary model and claim that it will be able to almost match the performance of current production Teslas, some day, when they actually manage to make it work.
I think Tesla did figure out something new, aren't quite able to mass produce it yet, but already did make it in very small volume and are now testing it. They may not make the 2020 deadline (it's still Tesla, after all) but I doubt it will be much later than that. They are getting a lot better at actually producing things, delays on Model 3 are only a couple of months and that's after accelerating the development by a whole year. I expect them to deliver the first token roadsters in december 2020 and start producing them for real in the second half of 2021.
The roadster however did work already; catapulting people who reserved it from 0 to 70 mph all night long without a single recharge nor overheating...
TSLA is not a finance institution with systemic exposure.
No... but it is tied to SpaceX, to Solar City and some methods that may be the only way we keep our power grid going without larger, very costly, improvements.
The government saved car manufacturers because of their commitments in jobs, financing and domestic production.
Muskâ(TM)s companies are, possibly coincidentally, covering many of the same basesâ"in some ways even moreâ"to the point that no administration would want them to fail.
Itâ(TM)s not as far fetched as you may think, at least as a backstop plan by Musk.
"But that achievement would mean squeezing into its tiny frame a battery twice as powerful as the largest battery currently available in any electric car."
Why? A Bugatti Veyron at full speed empties its 100 liter gas tank in 8 minutes.
This 25 year truck driver says "NOPE"!
You do if you dont wanna look like a limp wristed European.
Has anyone accounted for new battery technology developed with the help of the inventor of the original lithium-ion battery technology? https://news.utexas.edu/2017/0...
That Prius electric technology is so successful it is now integrated into many of Toyota's lines. More importantly, those lines are actually profitable, and aren't over priced, overly limited vehicles, that suck up govt tax payer money to manufacture.
I know the "Musk is only successful because of subsidies" meme is popular around here but you know that Prius buyers took advantage of tax credits too, right? It's not like Tesla is the only company to "suck up govt tax payer money to manufacture". Toyota gladly accepts subsidies just like all the other car manufacturers. The only place Tesla is unique is that their entire line is eligible for the tax credit instead of a subset like the other manufacturers.
Enigma
If Musk were trying to keep the Tesla stock price high, he could've achieved that more easily by simply not recently going on record telling the media that he thinks Tesla stock is currently overpriced: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/1...
The fact that you think a guy who shouts to the media that his stock is overvalued is putting on a PT Barnum act to raise the stock price shows that you've drifted off hopelessly into conspiracy land.
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Toyota? The one that started the whole "green car" thing back in 2003 with the Prius?
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Generally Porsche tends to be very conservative (read - underestimate) with their numbers. Porsche already has a release date for their Mission-E car - end on 2019, and multiple test-mules have been photographed./recorded running around the 'ring.
15 minute charge to 80% is pretty good,
..........FULL STOP.
Had both a power cord *AND* an electric only operation mode.
Both those features were removed for USDM models because the Japanese (rightly!) thought Americans were idiots and did their part to idiotproof the vehicles in order to ensure people didn't constantly run the batteries down too low, and because the charger required a dedicated breaker to avoid tripping. I forget it if was 110 or 220 and what current, but it WAS an available option/standard for JDM vehicles.
So, producing cars most people can buy, and using that to pay the price of R&D on more efficient, better engines, as well as electric cars without needing to be propped up with continuous investment, such that it's an actually sustainable company, is worse than producing a relatively few cars, pulling in billions in funding, and needing to keep getting outside investment? Amazon at least had minimal need to keep investment coming in while they were losing tons of money. Tesla dies shortly after people say no to giving them yet more money (as investments, not profits), unless they completely GUT the R&D and product development, because they can't produce enough product at high enough margins yet (or likely for at least 3 more years), to fund that. They are still in the very expensive stage of building up the tooling and institutional knowledge of how to mass produce cars.
From the article:
"The Tesla Roadster is promised to be the quickest production car ever built. But that achievement would mean squeezing into its tiny frame a battery twice as powerful as the largest battery currently available in any electric car.
I don't think they're lying. I just think they left something out of the public reveal"
From the Tesla press release for the roadster: "Powering the Roadster will be a 200kWh"
From Tesla specs for the model S: Biggest available battery is 100 kWH
The author is right. Tesla are leaving something important out of their press release. They are failing to explain the complicated math of 100 x 2 = 200.
EVs are cleaner than fossil fuel vehicles even in parts of the grid where coal dominates.
We gotta go to a crappy town where I'm a hero.
In the past 8 years Tesla gross revenue has increased by a factor of 400. This is not a software business they can just make new cars appear out of thin air with a license key. They have to add factory space, but tools, hire tons of people and of course, buy a lot more parts and raw materials to make more cars.
Expanding a business like Tesla is a HUGELY capital intensive prospect. It's going to be a money loser until they grow to a size where growth starts to flatten out and scale starts to dominate. Don't confuse losses due to capital investment in facilities with per-unit manufacturing losses. At some point, they will reach a tipping point and their capital requirements will flatten out and their profits will be so big they'll make a grown man cry.
The trick is to stay in business long enough to reach that tipping point. And for that aspect of the business, having a front man like musk who can dazzle the masses like PT Barnum is a very good thing indeed. I predict in 10 years time the idea that "Tesla will never turn a profit" will be laughable.
..the more grandiose his schemes and claims become until at last everyone will admit he's naked.
Time for a new Emporer.
also Toyota manufactures MILLIONS of cars and sells them for $15-50k, Tesla manufactures thousands and sells them for $70-150k.
In terms of 'subsidy per car' I'm quite sure Tesla wins hands down (aside from the direct subsidy, the indirect subsidy is the carbon credits it sells to the big ICE manufacturers).
We're nto even including the BILLIONS Nevada gave them for the Gigafactory when considering subsidies.
Maybe LVMH should get a subsidy too.
Car folks have more than one definition for âoebest.â I suggest staying away from used car sales folks.
Your argument is tantamount to saying basically "Why bother shitting in the toilet? It doesn't change the amount of shit. We might as well just shit on the living room couch, on dinner table, and in fact wherever we happen to be at that moment. We might as well just shit everywhere because that's easier."
Yes.
Er, I meant... you know what I meant
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
China's shit factories ARE shitting everywhere but you keep acting like your scrubbed clean toilet means something downwind from the shit factory if it makes you feel better; just dont expect us to swallow that shit too.
I'm not sure you realize that if our climate predictions are even just remotely close to being correct, yesterday was already too late for manufacturers to ditch fossil fuels altogether. Your model could work...in a world where we have extra half a century to do something with it. We don't. There's nothing sustainable about what we're doing right now. Of course, that's not just the problem of the car industry, there's food production, construction, etc., but still.
Ezekiel 23:20
No, i am saying that if you want to have a "Green car".. Push for clean energy.
When your car is powered by a coal plant you are really just moving the polution somewhere else.
you mean covered in smog and causing 200 deaths like this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
when you outsourced your factory jobs to China.. you outsourced the polution as well.
Tesla can easily meet their claimed acceleration speed on the Roadster 2 with a 100 KWH battery that weighs 1200 lbs. In fact it's easier than hitting their claimed speeds with a 200 KWH battery that weighs 2400 lbs. All lithium Ion batteries can be pushed to 2X or 4X discharge rates to give you 2X to 4X the power. The penalty you pay for pushing the discharge rate is much fewer charge cycles before the battery reaches 50% useful capacity. That doesn't matter for a prototype or demo car but it's completely unacceptable for a production car.
I've been waiting 5+ months for Tesla to fulfill an order for a Powerwall2. No ETA on the delivery. Plenty of excuses that don't really explain why. So there is a lot of Hype from Tesla/Musk but can they really deliver? Forget about battery technology of the future if they can't meet the demands of today.
Yeah, it's pretty insane. Our Thanksgiving dinner of technologists, financiers, accountants, and lawyers figured he has a 1%-2% chance of success without giant government subsidies. We also estimated it wasn't a good idea to short the stock: there's too much idiot money out there.
He keeps missing his own production targets, he has big negative cashflow, his tooling plan for mass market cars is bizarre to the point of crazy.
He should just call his next car the "DeLorean, Mark II." It's cool, fast, uses high technology, and defies the laws of physics.
Govt tax payer money is to available to any manufacturer of electric vehicles, I assume, and not just Tesla. Or would all the other car companies when they make electric vehicles say, "No thanks, we don't want any of those electric vehicle subsidies"?
And it's still a Tesla and Musk still needs to be burned alive in public.
You clearly have no idea just how bad Musk is at running Tesla. One hand doesnâ(TM)t know what the other is doing, injuries are occurring and arenâ(TM)t being reported, operational roles have been outsourced at great expense, employee turnover is high, and the Fremont factory is a dinosaur, completely inappropriate for Teslaâ(TM)s needs. And that doesnâ(TM)t even begin to describe the issues Tesla has with its suppliers.
The company is a zombie, and with no cash, there is no reason for anyone to come in and buy them. Itâ(TM)s possible they arenâ(TM)t even turning a profit in the Model 3.
Tesla is worth ZERO. NOTHING. In the end, the bond holders will lose nearly everything, while the shareholders actually lose all their money.
I question whether Tesla will still be solvent a year from now.
These are good points, what Musk says should be possible, but
It has 8 giant pins in what appear to be a 2x4 arrangement, with ground...
One additional engineering requirement would be the cooling of the battery while being charged. You have any ideas how they might be planning that ?
Even much smaller batteries charged at a much lower rate heat up quite nicely.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Yes - you're moving the pollution to the power station, where it is far more easily dealt with, and not in the middle of towns and cities. Then, when those power stations are replaced by something greener, the electric cars don't have to be changed, and the pollution decreases.
> "a charging system that's 10 times more powerful than one of the fastest battery-charging networks
> on the road today -- Tesla's own Superchargers."
Yeah, and?
A 1.6 MW inverter is about the size of a large industrial fridge, at least the one we had in our warehouse was.
We know the charger port is basically four SuperCharger ports, which are 120 kW each, but CCS Level 2 is 350 kW using similar wires. Because it's a larger battery pack, they can divide up the cells into groups any way they want, which means they could solve the same problem by doubling the voltage.
Its funny, they've selected the easiest problem to solve and are saying it's some killer issue.
Green cars existed long before the Toyota Prius.
...because toxic carcinogenic particulates from tyres and road tarmac are so much better.