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Destiny 2 Misrepresented XP Gains To Its Players Until the Developers Got Caught (arstechnica.com)

Posted by BeauHD on from the hidden-figures dept.

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: Destiny 2, like its predecessor, depends largely on an open-ended "end game" system. Once you beat the game's primary "quest" content, you can return to previously covered ground to find remixed and upgraded battles, meant to be played ad nauseam alone or with friends. To encourage such replay, Bungie dangles a carrot of XP gain, which works more slowly than during the campaign stages. Players are awarded a "bright engram" every time they "level up" past the level cap; the engrams are essentially loot boxes that contain a random assortment of cosmetics and weapon mods. Everything you do in the game, from killing a weak bad guy to completing a major raid-related milestone, is supposed to reward you a fixed XP amount. As series fans gear up for the game's first expansion, slated to launch December 5 on PC, PlayStation 4, and Xbox One, its eagle-eyed fans at r/DestinyTheGame began questioning whether those rewards were really as fixed as claimed. Some players began to suspect that they were actually getting less XP than advertised each time they repeated certain in-game missions and tasks, such as the game's "Public Events."

With stopwatch in hand, a user named EnergiserX tracked the modes he played, keeping an eye on any shifts in XP gain over time. He put enough data together to confirm those suspicions: the XP gained in certain modes would shrink with each repetition. Worse, the game gave no indication of these diminishing returns. The XP-gain numbers that popped up above the game's XP bar didn't reflect the game's hidden scaling system. Thus, there was no way for a player to accurately calculate how their XP gain had been affected or scaled without going through EnergiserX's exhaustive process. With findings in hand, the tester posted on Reddit with calls to the developers for a response, which the community received on Saturday. Bungie confirmed its use of an "XP scaler" and added that it was "not performing the way we'd like it to," which meant the developer would remove that XP-scaling system upon the game's next patch. However, Bungie didn't clarify how the developers actually would have liked for this XP-scaling system to work, nor what factored into it announcing any changes beyond the system simply being discovered. Bungie issued a patch on Sunday that removed the XP-scaling systems, but it introduced another unannounced change to the XP system. "Bungie decided to tune the speed of XP gain by doubling the required XP needed to 'level up,' from 80,000 points to 160,000," reports Ars Technica. "Patch notes didn't mention this change; Bungie, once again, had to be questioned by its fanbase before confirming the exact amount of this XP-related change."

14 of 112 comments (clear)

  1. I miss the old days. by Harold+Halloway · · Score: 2

    We never had this problem with Manic Miner.

  2. How about a by ChoGGi · · Score: 2

    Sorry for lying to your customers?

    That said; it isn't like other MMOs don't have the diminishing returns system in place as well, wonder why they intentionally hid it?

    1. Re:How about a by rhazz · · Score: 2

      I suspect the actual post-levelling XP gains being scaled are a non-issue for almost all of the player base. The post-levelling rewards are not a "grind", it is just an added hand-out for cosmetic items and also some random gear mods which are non-cosmetic but can be bought from in-game vendors anyway. I'd like to hear some stories of how this actually affected a player's experience.

      The actual levelling system (prior to reaching 20) is a joke. On my second character I ran through most of the content and ended up blocked from progression because my level was too low to start the next mission. In one case I needed 3 levels and it took about 25 minutes of doing public events to get that.

  3. Just poor communication by pots · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This kind of system is common, usually meant to break up the grind - keep players doing different things, playing with other people, etc., instead of just running the same mission over and over again for maximum efficiency.

    This works best, of course, if you actually tell people that's what's going on. So that part's kinda funny, but this doesn't seem like a big deal.

    1. Re:Just poor communication by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      You know I thought the point of games were for relaxation, recreation, and escapism. When you get to a point where you are just grinding to get the next thing so you can grind more. Is a point where where I decide the game is no longer fun and I stop playing it.

      While I know that their are professional gamers out there, who will grind and do all the stuff needed for their craft, but for most people, it just becomes an unhealthy obsession. Where quitting is probably the better option.

      I am not sure why the game maker needed to tell people how it is calculating XP. Because when they do, you just need to do some calc to fine the most otimized action to win fastest. Vs. actually enjoying the game.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:Just poor communication by Glarimore · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're all missing the point.

      The purpose of diminishing returns isn't to "break up the grind" -- it's to reduce the number of Bright Engrams produced. Bright Engrams, unlike other loot, which aren't rewarded on level up but instead drop from enemies, can be purchased with cold hard cash. Fewer bright engrams generated naturally = more people purchasing bright engrams for money. Aside from new game sales and expansion purchases, it's the only way Bungie/Activision make additional money on the game.

      When in doubt, follow the money!

  4. Well, I thought that was the point... by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 2

    I thought the point of having a game was to play it. Now you're bitching because you have to play it more than you thought. There's no pleasing anyone these days...

    --
    That is all.
  5. Skinner box by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's amazing how people will pay for the privilege of running on a meaningless treadmill, and also pay for the privilege of not running on the meaningless treadmill, seemingly unaware that they don't have to run on the meaningless treadmill in the first place.

    1. Re:Skinner box by blahplusplus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's amazing how people will pay for the privilege of running on a meaningless treadmill, and also pay for the privilege of not running on the meaningless treadmill, seemingly unaware that they don't have to run on the meaningless treadmill in the first place.

      No it isn't, the whole plan since forever was to remove control of PC games from gamers. The problem is the market can't defend itself in a post internet age. You need physical proximity to the business to hold these companies accountable.

      The big plan was to rebrand games as "mmo's/online" and push drm since the informed members of the public are 100's of miles away, what are they going to do? Then all the corporate world had to do was wait for a new generation of gamers to grow up who don't know any better and are ignorant. The vast majority of the public is tech ignorant. If not for the internet these scam practices wouldn't be possible. The wall between the stupid half of mankind and the corporate world came down post mass internet penetration, allowing the corporate world to steal PC game software by cutting the software into two chunks and defrauding the public.

      Most of the public is too ignorant and uninformed to participate an a high tech capitalist society, the human brain didn't evolve to deal with it and we see the irrational dystopian outcome.

    2. Re: Skinner box by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      You are welcome (beep)

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  6. Unbelievable by Headw1nd · · Score: 2

    Next you will be telling me that dealers routinely short junkies when selling drugs.

  7. Re:What is the issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The game shows you how much XP you earn as you earn it and it's lying as soon as the scaling kicks in.

    They are of course also happy to sell the item you get for that XP for real money.

  8. XP is the least important issue by RedK · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Who cares about Bright Engrams. Seriously.

    How about the lack of a chat system with your Clan or just the general populace ? Lack of a match-making system, even just a manual one, to create Fireteams for Trial of the Nine, the Leviathan raid or even just Nightfall Strikes. Heck, there's a Exotic weapon quest, that you get at the end of a solo campaign quest, that requires doing Patrols, a solo activity, in a Fireteam. How about a Group Finder tool ?

    But yeah, please keep talking about XP, which is barely visible in game (not like you can even tell how much you need) and only rewards Shaders and other cosmetics and doesn't affect gameplay at all.

    I'm going back to World of Warcraft. (I kid of course, I never left World of Warcraft to begin with -_-).

    --
    "Not to mention all the idiots who use words like boxen."
    Anonymous Coward on Monday August 04, @06:49PM
  9. I run on this Treadmil by mrops · · Score: 2

    Its been interesting, the game has its roots in Halo, it was a great franchise. Rather well balanced game play. Go online with a team or alone, it would pair you up and you play. People played for the same reason they played soccer or basketball (minus the health benefits of said games).

    Then came destiny, what they did was create weapons and armor with random mods, as these artifacts dropped, you had a chance to get a god role, same weapon as other but say with extra stability and head seeker (slight beter aim assist to head). all of a sudden you were god in PvP. This is why people ran the treadmill. Naturally the community complained and complained as not every one could get a god roll on weapons and artifacts. Then there were exotics, e.g. rocket launchers with tracking and proximity, you wanted that.

    Secondly, the sweats complain there isn't much content at the same time they had god rolls and were unstoppable meanwhile the regular dad with two kids complained its impossible to get god rolls and be useful in PvP (or PvE for that matter). So its been a complicated balancing strategy for Bungie.

    Not only that over the last 3-4 years, a game that had its origins in PvP evolved deep into a PvE + PvP game due to the community feedback. Come Destiny 2... those random mods are gone as Bungie realised those god rolls are a problem. Now you don't have rocket launchers with tracking and proximity, you don't have guns that generate ammo out of thin year (even though those two were probably the most liked weapons on Destiny 1). The game as you describe has become a meaningless treadmill. Made my life simpler as I only have one day job now. I prefer PvP only, I have the weapons/armor that work since there are no more random mods. I play a few games and log off.