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India's Telecom Regulator Backs Net Neutrality (reuters.com)

From a report on Reuters: India's telecom regulator has made recommendations to ensure an open internet in the country and prevent any discrimination in internet access in a long-awaited report (PDF), after debating the issue of net neutrality for more than a year. The Telecom Regulatory Authority of India (TRAI) said it was not in favor of any "discriminatory treatment" with data, including blocking, slowing or offering preferential speeds or treatment to any content. The Indian regulator's support of net neutrality stands in contrast to the recent stance taken by the chair of the U.S. Federal Communications Commission. Last week, Ajit Pai, a Republican appointed by President Donald Trump in January, unveiled plans to rescind so-called net neutrality rules championed by former President Barack Obama that treated internet service providers like public utilities.

20 of 42 comments (clear)

  1. Time for another round? by Baron_Yam · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Most of us have at least a vague understanding of why some companies wanted NN destroyed, and how it will negatively affect American Internet services from the perspective of the average user.

    How many liars will come out of the woodwork this time to support the NN repeal by sharing 'alternate facts' and tell us history didn't happen the way it's documented?

    1. Re:Time for another round? by RedK · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How many liars will come out of the woodwork this time to support the NN repeal by sharing 'alternate facts' and tell us history didn't happen the way it's documented?

      Even though your post is just flamebait, how about you address the actual timeline, stop pretending the repeal is about "long standing rules", and stop pretending that they are as black and white as you put it. There's a lot wrong with the 2015 FCC regulations, and the FCC Commissioner of the time, appointed by Barack Obama, wrote a long dissent against them.

      The current proposal is also not exactly a Net Neutrality repeal as people put it disingenuously, it's a return of power to the FTC, and contains language against Blocking and Throttling (part of the 3 "Bright Line rules" of No Blocking, No Throttling and No Paid Prioritization).

      This discussion would be much less polarized if one side wasn't so much into spinning up Drama and making everything into a catastrophe for the Internet, and we stuck to actually discussing the policies being repealed and the replacement being suggested, which are much more nuanced than the "FCC should regulate ISPs under Title II" Camp is letting on.

      The only lies being told here are Lies by Omission by the camp going bonkers over this.

      --
      "Not to mention all the idiots who use words like boxen."
      Anonymous Coward on Monday August 04, @06:49PM
    2. Re:Time for another round? by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      Net Neutrality, is an easy set of rules to follow. Treat every packet like any other one.
      Getting rid of Net Neutrality opens the door for a bunch of laws and complex sets of regulations. How far is too far, can a competitors website be blocked entirely, or slowed down to a point where it takes hours to load? If an ISP is unfairly treating someone, would this be considered a violation of free speech. Then you have truth in advertising so if they advertise 1gbs speed, and that is only via premium content providers, then the rest get 10mbs then are you really getting what you think you are getting, because you may want this 1gbs speed to VPN into work. While you only get 10mbs because your ISP doesn't consider your place of work premium, and your work will not pay for premium access to your ISP, because it may not be a big enough company for it.

      In short if you want government out of your internet, then you should support Net Neutrality, because without it, they will be a bunch of complex set of laws behind it.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:Time for another round? by mwvdlee · · Score: 3, Informative

      No Blocking, No Throttling and No Paid Prioritization

      Feel free to point out where exactly in the proposal it bans blocking, throttling or paid prioritization: https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_pub.... Hint; it's not on page 134, chapter 235 where all three are explicitly no longer banned.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    4. Re:Time for another round? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Net Neutrality, is an easy set of rules to follow. Treat every packet like any other one.

      Including DDoS packets? Why are you making arguments that are childlike and simplistic to the point of dishonesty?

      When did Net Neutrality become a religion?

    5. Re:Time for another round? by RedK · · Score: 1

      In short if you want government out of your internet, then you should support Net Neutrality, because without it, they will be a bunch of complex set of laws behind it.

      The problem is that the 2015 are already much more than the 3 "Bright line rules" of Net Neutrality. They already are a bunch of complex set of "not even laws" (which is another issue with them, they literally are just agency regulations, never codified as actual law, which is why the FCC can now just repeal them).

      Want actual Net Neutrality ? Codify the 3 Bright line rules into Consumer Protection law. By the Legislative branch. You know, the proper way to do it. Shoehorning Title II unto ISPs with all the broad regulations it brings, and then trying to carve out specific exemptions for a particular type of carrier, is just an exercise in massive governement over-regulation.

      --
      "Not to mention all the idiots who use words like boxen."
      Anonymous Coward on Monday August 04, @06:49PM
    6. Re:Time for another round? by Green+Mountain+Bot · · Score: 2

      Sure thing.

      No Blocking is discussed on page 83 (para 142) :

      142. Many of the largest ISPs have committed in this proceeding not to block or throttle legal content.507 These commitments can be enforced by the FTC under Section 5, protecting consumers without imposing public-utility regulation on ISPs.

      Weasel words. "Many" (not "All") have "committed" (not "are obligated"), and those commitments "can" (not "will") be enforced ...

      We also reject assertions that the FTC has insufficient authority, because, as Verizon argues, "[i]f broadband service providers' conduct falls outside [the FTC's] grant of jurisdiction" - that is, if their actions cannot be described as anticompetitive, unfair, or deceptive - "then the conduct should not be banned in the first place."

      Anticompetitive is a judgment call, and this essentially opens up a lot of what would otherwise be clear demarcations of what is acceptable and what is not to litigation. And when it comes to deep pocketed and well represented corporations versus consumers, only a complete fool would think the consumers have a shot in hell. Handwave away, but these arguments aren't the least bit reassuring.

    7. Re:Time for another round? by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      This discussion implicitly centers around LEGAL Internet traffic. DDoS packets are not part of lawful or legal Internet activity. That should be clear to anyone possessing a thinking mind and basic English literacy.

      Please wake up, stupid, and stop trolling.

      You're conflating "legal" and "lawful." In the context of FCC (and FTC) regulations, they are not the same. "Lawful" means that there is no specific law banning it. During a DDoS attack, the attack itself is against the law, so clearly that can be stopped. However, the FCC's original network neutrality regulations only protected "legal" protocols and traffic - meaning it had to be specifically allowed. That allows ISPs to deem bittorrent traffic as blockable, because although it may be lawful, it's not explicitly allowed, and thus not legal. By the same token, if your ISP has a TOS (they all do, by the way), which, for instance, forbids you from running a home server on your end point, then any traffic out of there can be blocked because although it's lawful, it's not LEGAL (it violates the TOS).

      Any rule can be used like that. The FCC used the higher standard of allowing only "legal" content, because it allows ISPs to block, for example, home email servers (they generally all do that already), anything that *might* be a copyright infringement, etc.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    8. Re:Time for another round? by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      JUST QUIT IT

      If an ISP is unfairly treating someone, would this be considered a violation of free speech.

      Free speech addresses citizens speaking out about the government.

      You get a do-over.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    9. Re:Time for another round? by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      So say a company like AT&T who wants a government grant, or do some business. Now some behind the door deals with a President or Congressmen may sweeten the deal if AT&T customers have a hard time access to a popular news site like CNN (or Fox News if it is a Democratic leadership) just happens to run at 2400 bps. Ending Net Neutrality, can open the door for citizens access and free speech being blocked, because we are putting blocks to information that we don't want to give to the customers.

      I as the consumer am paying the ISP for bandwidth, I as the consumer should get the data that I want as the speed that the ISP says I should have it.
      If I am or the customers are using too much bandwidth, then throttle my whole account, charge me more, lower the bandwidth speeds. However the ISP shouldn't care about the endpoint of the communication. Because I have the freedom to listen/view other point of views. Just as I have the right to state my own.

      New Neutrality is a good thing... Will it make internet a little more expensive? Maybe. But it is worth the cost to make sure that I know my access isn't controlled, by the delivery agents.

      Being that the internet is a Government tool outsourced to companies. It is still a free speech issue.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    10. Re:Time for another round? by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      So say the original post didn't say anything about a government grant ...

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  2. Role reversal for a change by ketomax · · Score: 2

    India gets it right where an Indian origin American doesn't.

    1. Re: Role reversal for a change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, he's referencing that the head of the FCC is an Indian (from India, not NA native)

    2. Re: Role reversal for a change by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      Somehow I don't think India's stance on net neutrality contributes to the high overall level of corruption in their government, or any of the other things you mentioned. But it is pretty clear that the Americanized Ajit picked up some very ah, narrow, specialized interests during his tenure at Verizon and has zero problem using the arm of government to pick winners and losers in our economy. (Hint: The winner is Verizon et al, and the loser is nearly everyone else)

    3. Re: Role reversal for a change by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      Entrenched internet businesses like Netflix are lobbying against the changes because they won't like paying rent to the ISPs any more than the rest of us. I don't see any mortal threats to their dominance regardless of what the FCC does. And neither do they. Neutrality *is* key for giving new or smaller businesses a chance to compete, but it's certainly not a guarantee of their success. Unlike Ajit's proposed change, which guarantees plenty of new revenue for the ISPs, zero of which will get plowed back into infrastructure upgrades, or anything useful to anybody, besides Pai's buddies.

      Crony capitalism at it's purest. Gives a bad name to the whole ideology. Now, that doesn't affect me much, as an independent thinker. So yes, I do want the organization that gave us the seven dirty words to protect us from from monopoly-abusing telecoms. That is a critical part of their job, and NOBODY else can do it. I advocate evaluating individual regulations based on what good they do for the people of this country, not how closely they hew to some inflexible pseudoreligious ideology, or someone's idea of polite conversation. Maybe if everyone took that approach, government could do something *useful*. Imagine that - a government that works for its people, not for its officeholders and special interests.

    4. Re: Role reversal for a change by doctorvo · · Score: 1

      Entrenched internet businesses like Netflix are lobbying against the changes because they won't like paying rent to the ISPs any more than the rest of us.

      I have no doubt that you and most of the rest of Slashdot nerds want cheap Netflix streaming. But you don't represent "the rest of us", you represent a group of people with special interests.

      Crony capitalism at it's purest.

      Indeed, that is what net neutrality is.

      Gives a bad name to the whole ideology.

      "Capitalism" and "crony capitalism" are left wing terms intended to obfuscate and confuse people, often conflating "capitalism" with "business friendly". Just like other insulting terms, free market advocates have simply tried to own the term.

      "The ideology" itself is classical free market liberalism. It has no place for cronyism or unjustified market interventions. American Democrats have become the antithesis of classical free market liberals (or any form of liberals for that matter).

  3. India has the best laws in the world. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1
    Sadly, it does not enforce most of them.

    What it chooses to enforce is so haphazard.

    And it enforces it using a highly corrupt insanely inefficient bureaucracy

    Still it manages to be a sort of functioning democracy. No doubt it is very bad. But given the circumstances, it is way better than one would expect.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  4. I can't think of a better recommendation by doctorvo · · Score: 1

    India's telecom regulator has made recommendations to ensure an open internet in the country and prevent any discrimination in internet access in a long-awaited report (PDF), after debating the issue of net neutrality for more than a year.

    I can't think of a better recommendation for repealing net neutrality.

  5. To the extent that's true, it's horrible by raymorris · · Score: 2

    > Net Neutrality, is an easy set of rules to follow. Treat every packet like any other one.

    Treating low-bandwidth flows that extremely sensitive to jitter (ex VoIP) the same as you treat high bandwidth flows that don't care about jitter (ex Netflix) would make everything work poorly. If all packets were treated the same, 1960s-style, your video would stutter so bad it would be unwatchable in 352 Ã-- 288 and your VoIP would have sounds arriving in the wrong order, so "hello jellomizer" would arrive as "lloeh mijellozer". Fortunately, the hundreds of pages of NN rules that were in effect for a year and half weren't quite that stupid.

    An early draft DID say spam and spoofed packets had to be treated equally as legitimate packets, but we got the most obvious cases of stupid fixed. For security and prevention of DOS it's important to block spoofed and malicious packets as close to the source as possible and that wasn't completely made illegal by the NN rules as approved in 2015. It was damaged, but not completely barred in all cases like "treat every packet the same" would do.

    People who don't know a port from a fragment do say "treat everything exactly the same" because they don't have any idea how carrier networks work, but policy makers at the FCC aren't listening to Facebook meme-based comments. One Congresswoman did, dangerously, but that was handled.

    Unfortunately, there are several books each a thousand pages or more teaching network optimization methods to get the right flows into the right paths in the right order to provide the desired combination of jitter, packet loss, latency, and bandwidth that's needed for each type of flow. We moved away from mostly packet-based policy a long time ago - each packet is part of a flow. The user experience is based on the flow, such as a video stream or http response, so we focus most of our attention on flows, rather than tiny artificial, arbitrary pieces of data within the flow (packets). In other words, making routing, policing, and queueing decisions a million times, for a the million separate packets in a video, would be stupid - instead we make those decisions once, based on "he wants to watch a pre-recorded video, which will be buffered". Packet level stuff mostly comes into play because we know real-time flows such as RTP tend to have much packets that need to arrive in order, at equal intervals, while YouTube videos have much larger packets that are fine with being delivered in bursts, because it's buffered anyway.

    Anyway the point is, I only know maybe 15% of what there is to know about how to most effectively provide the best network performance for each thing you want to do on the internet, because I've only read maybe 4,000 pages on the subject. The best engineers, the CCIEs, apply tens of thousands of pages worth of knowledge to get the right packets where they need to be at the right moment, with the right volume of packets vs the acceptable packet loss.
    It's a complex science. Rules telling them how they must do it must take into account the complexity. Not only the complexity of the network technologies that are common in carrier networks today, but emerging technologies. Otherwise, the rules will be either damaging, ineffective, or both. (And the 2015 included plenty of both)

    1. Re:To the extent that's true, it's horrible by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1

      Nice post. A shame it couldn't be shoved under the appropriate politician's noses (perhaps with a bit more dumbing down... I doubt they understand 'packet', 'jitter', etc.).

      Then we need another post like yours to describe in very simple terms why it's a bad idea to let ISPs discriminate based on source and willingness to pay fees.