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Tesla Switches on Giant Battery To Shore Up Australia's Grid (reuters.com)

Tesla switched on the world's biggest lithium ion battery on Friday in time to feed Australia's shaky power grid for the first day of summer, meeting a promise by Elon Musk to build it in 100 days or give it free. From a report: "South Australia is now leading the world in dispatchable renewable energy," state Premier Jay Weatherill said at the official launch at the Hornsdale wind farm, owned by private French firm Neoen. Tesla won a bid in July to build the 129-megawatt hour battery for South Australia, which expanded in wind power far quicker than the rest of the country, but has suffered a string of blackouts over the past 18 months. In a politically charged debate, opponents of the state's renewables push have argued that the battery is a "Hollywood solution" in a country that still relies on fossil fuels, mainly coal, for two-thirds of its electricity.

22 of 173 comments (clear)

  1. Special Solution for a Special Problem by careysub · · Score: 3, Informative

    South Australia (and Australia generally) is a special case for renewable energy since it is a small continent, and sparsely inhabited.

    This is a fix for a remote corner in Australia, the edge of the 5th largest population center (Adelaide*) separated from it by 100 miles and isolated by hundreds of miles of emptiness from anywhere else. There is little redundant/backup infrastructure, or all that many people.

    More generally battery facilities shouldn't be needed in larger, more populous continents (North America, Eurasia).

    The solution to issues of variable power production is to connect the entire continent together with high voltage DC power lines (a nearly century old technology) which can ship power from one coast of North America to the other with losses of under 5%. You build enough excess solar and wind capacity that even under the worst conditions you still have enough for the entire continent (Canada and Mexico should be part of this grid also).

    This also allows using the sun out west to power the evening peak back east, and so forth, leveling out production/consumption mismatches.

    Pumped storage can service the entire grid since power can be transported long distances. The U.S. currently has enough pumped storage on-line to provide 2.2% of US grid capacity (and about twice this much more has been licensed), so it can be sited where ever geography makes it most convenient.

    We need some national-level vision to help bring this about (good luck with that at present), but mostly this can be done by private investment.

    *The greater metropolitan area of Adelaide has a population of 1,317,000 which is 77% of the entire population of South Australia (which is 50% larger than Texas). Things get really sparse really fast out past Adelaide's metro area.

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    1. Re:Special Solution for a Special Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      Lower transmission losses and connectivity between unsynchronized grids.

    2. Re:Special Solution for a Special Problem by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      Most long-distance transmission is DC these days.

      AC requires the whole grid to be fully synchronous.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

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    3. Re:Special Solution for a Special Problem by iggymanz · · Score: 2

      nope

      Ultra-high voltage DC lines are a real thing and the preferred and most efficient long distance solution, working commercial 1500 miles (2400 km) is state of the art and longer lines are planned

    4. Re:Special Solution for a Special Problem by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 3, Funny

      You build enough excess solar and wind capacity that even under the worst conditions you still have enough for the entire continent (Canada and Mexico should be part of this grid also).

      As a Canadian, I can already tell you that it will never work. Up north, we use metric electricity.

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    5. Re:Special Solution for a Special Problem by tlhIngan · · Score: 4, Informative

      Why HVDC? DC is a bitch to convert between voltage and current, and it (generally) is more dangerous at any given voltage, though to be fair at transmission voltage levels it makes little difference if you're a DC or AC flavored charcoal lump.

      If your grid is disparate, then getting them into synchronicity can be a pain. With modern semiconductors, it is however possible to rectify and invert DC into AC quite painlessly.

      This is used for grids that have historically never been tied together, as well as new grids which never were synchronized. In Texas, there's a grid intertie that connects the three major US and Canadian grids together so power imbalances can be dealt with. But trying to synchronize the grids is a next to impossible problem, so the intertie uses HVDC internally so it's able to move power between the grids as necessary.

      I believe China has a HVDC distribution network for the same reason - too many little grids to synchronize up.

      HVDC systems do have lots of advantages over traditional AC systems.

    6. Re:Special Solution for a Special Problem by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 5, Informative

      South Australia (and Australia generally) is a special case for renewable energy since it is a small continent, and sparsely inhabited.

      This is a fix for a remote corner in Australia, the edge of the 5th largest population center (Adelaide*) separated from it by 100 miles and isolated by hundreds of miles of emptiness from anywhere else. There is little redundant/backup infrastructure, or all that many people.

      More generally battery facilities shouldn't be needed in larger, more populous continents (North America, Eurasia).

      Many folks may not fully appreciate the primary function of these batteries. It is not to levelize renewables, but rather to provide fast response to prevent overloads and voltage/frequency support when there is a sudden event on the system. That is because, as you say, they rely on a small number of lines and therefore don't have the networked/redundancy to maintain reliability. Adding new transmission lines for these long distances is expensive.

      With the batteries, if there is a transient event on the grid the hope is they provide voltage and frequency support to ride it through without some overload on a major line. Now that it is operational, it will be interesting to see how well that works and how often that support is needed.

      One important factor to note, when batteries need to be available for this type of support they must retain a certain percentage of capacity. They can also use them for renewable levelization or peaking support, but they don't want to discharge them too much or they may not be able to supply adequate voltage/frequency support when called upon. Full discharge/recharge cycles will likely not happen often.

    7. Re:Special Solution for a Special Problem by 110010001000 · · Score: 2

      Two idiots arguing about agreeing with each other.

  2. Re:1910 called by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But it is equally a bad idea during 1910 to dump your investments in buggy whips and manure disposals because 2/3 of the road transportation is populated by horses. And we need these industries to stay strong while the transition takes place.
    While Renewable energy and battery storage gets perfected we still need to upgrade and manage the existing dirty power, to make sure services don't get cut off.

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  3. Fossil fools. The battery will help you TOO. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What people don't realize is that the electric grid is on demand; there has never before been a battery system. The power requirements of society must be monitored continuously, and generators must not only be put online as demand increases, but must also be taken offline as demand decreases.

    This has been one of the problems with the growth of solar panels in Hawaii. Those panels would dump more electricity into the grid than was needed, causing outages as safety mechanisms kicked in. Until batteries have become workable, the only thing to do with that extra power has been to squander it.

    Now, those batteries can be charged at off-peek hours by even those fossil fuel plants, and the batteries can then be used to supplement/smooth power requirements during peak hours. This will put fossil fuel plants under less stress, in terms of mechanics and personnel. It will make fossil fuel usage more efficient.

  4. Hollywood Solutions by citylivin · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Star Trek's PADD device was a hollywood solution too. Until it wasn't.

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  5. Elon Musk ... by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 5, Interesting
    An engineer who delivered one fourth of what Elon Musk has delivered will be assured of a place in Engineering Hall of Fame. But what he has delivered is still a fraction of what he promised to deliver and he will be judged by how much he fell short...

    He might end up a pauper dying alone in a hotel room like his inspiration, Nicholi. Or he might actually deliver enough of what he promised to be ranked along with Whitney, Colt, Edison, Westinghouse, Ford as the leading light of American Industry....

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    1. Re:Elon Musk ... by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2
      Fundamentally, Edison was a tinkerer, without fully understanding electricity or magnetism. He did manage to invent lots of useful things but without any real understanding of how/why they worked. On top of it he was a racist and cruel too. Electrocuted circus elephants purely for FUD.

      Nikola Tesla too did not understand the inverse square law. If you radiate in a spherical front, 10 times the distance from the tower, 1% is the power density. No way you could transmit power in spherical front wirelessly. He was doomed too, but at least he got AC right.

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    2. Re:Elon Musk ... by quanminoan · · Score: 2

      I never saw anything that said Edison was racist and cruel. Read quite a bit about him, but could be wrong. Most first hand accounts portray Edison as a very likable guy (great book - "Uncommon Friends"). The elephant fiasco was partially Edison, but as always the big picture is more complicated. The elephant killed was going to be put to death anyway as it had killed people at the circus. The brainchild of electrocution by AC was Morgan, Edison's business partner. However, Edison has stated the whole AC DC feud was his biggest regret.

      You're correct Edison didn't know much, however he hired people who did and ran the world's first industrial R&D lab for profit. While he was the "front" guy, credit was applied to those who innovated. Personnel in his lab invented myriad new devices and received credit. Edison's contributions came through tinkering, but quite successfully. You can't denounce his contributions towards working economical bulbs and phonographs, for example.

      Believe it or not Tesla too was a tinkerer. He didn't believe in atoms, for one, and had his own (incorrect) ideas about how the universe worked. Most of what came from his lab has messing around with coils, not a mathematically rigorous method. And to your point on whether or not he was a "good person", he was a proponent of eugenics and had an odd hatred of obese people, especially obese women.

      Really, everyone has faults and today's trend of painting everyone historically by their worst actions gets a little tiresome. Edison by all accounts was a great person who made fantastic contributions to society either directly or indirectly through his funding and personnel at his laboratory. The 20th century was born in his laboratory. Tesla too was by all accounts overall a great person, but his contributions to society have, in my opinion, been horrendously exaggerated.

  6. Musk wins again: Slashdot is butthurt by mschuyler · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is so funny. Here comes Musk--again--makes a big boast "Battery in 100 days or it is free!" Beats his own goal, turns on the battery, and some people here just can't stand it. Musk wins. You lose. Get over yourselves.

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    1. Re:Musk wins again: Slashdot is butthurt by linuxguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is not the same Slashdot that many remember from the old days. It is now filled with grumpy old naysayers and griefers.

  7. Re:Tyrant by Jzanu · · Score: 2

    No, capitalism requires that you chase capital without mercy. Socialism implies that you generate what people need.

    Read this article from 1988; specifically "It is this obsession with capital accumulation that distinguishes capitalism from the simple system for satisfying human needs it is portrayed as in mainstream economic theory. And a system driven by capital accumulation is one that never stands still, one that is forever changing, adopting new and discarding old methods of production and distribution, opening up new territories, subjecting to its purposes societies too weak to protect themselves. Caught up in this process of restless innovation and expansion, the system rides roughshod over even its own beneficiaries if they get in its way or fall by the roadside. As far as the natural environment is concerned, capitalism perceives it not as something to be cherished and enjoyed but as a means to the paramount ends of profit-making and still more capital accumulation."

  8. Re: In other words by Rei · · Score: 3, Informative

    Indeed. Look at the stats on the battery: 100MW, yet only 129MWh. This isn't storing power for long periods of time; it's providing a power-plant level of power until power plant outputs can be ramped up elsewhere. Hence it physically cannot be used as a "storage for when the wind doesn't blow" solution (unless the wind is only stopped for an hour or so). Tesla does make longer-term storage solutions too (it's done that for solar in a number of places), but that's not what this battery is.

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  9. Re:Tyrant by Jzanu · · Score: 2

    No, that is a command economy, designed for wartime efficiency in the face of scarcity despite increased needs for defence. Every country uses it for industrial warfare now. Socialism in the sense of the article is about removing the impetus for capital accumulation beyond what is used to meet the needs of people. Gluttony is the core of raw capitalism. This is why modern countries use social democracy with markets to correct that excess.

  10. Re:Elon Musk by Rei · · Score: 5, Informative

    Sure he did - he made a bunch of Slashdotters (and "experts") look silly ;)

    The proposed system would contain 129,000 kilowatt-hours of capacity, meaning the project's cost would start at around $42 million. The head of Tesla's battery division has quoted a cost of about $65 million in the past. Other experts say a system of that size is likely to cost somewhere between $60 and $120 million.

    (It cost $50M. And judging from Semi battery prices, if they were to do it again late next year, it'd be a small fraction of that much)

    Hope they have a site ready for him, leveling and concreting a section of land can take years. Yeah, yeah, I know Aussie is flat, but not that flat.

    Link

    Getting them there is only a small part of the problem. The real issue is that Australia can throw lots of roadblocks in Elon's way, from customs to building permits. And there is a hell of a difference between delivering enough batteries in the stated time and building up a power system to use them. I think Musk's ego go the better of him here and he shot off his mouth too fast. Betting that you can do something in 100 days or it is free against the very people who can block you at every move isn't the smartest thing to do.

    That's the rub. He hasn't even clearly defined what problem he will solve. The recent articles describe the symptoms of a more complex problem. Musk is proposing to alleviate the local symptoms possibly, not necessarily the core systemic problem which is continuously evolving. And of course he needs to tell them how much it will cost to 'solve' the problem.

    Australia clearly won't fall for his rhetoric.

    A container ship can cross the pacific in 2-4 weeks so that's not a big deal. Lead time would be a serious problem though for his 100 day boast. Presume it takes 20 days to transport the batteries and maybe another 30-40 to build them all (probably optimistic), they would be left with maybe a month to design, install and test the whole thing. Not saying it would be impossible but it would be a tight squeeze most likely unless he has already built the batteries and designed the system. He could probably get it up and running quickly but perhaps not at full capacity.

    Reminder: it was not only done 99 days from the bet, but only 55 days from the contract signing ;)

    It's not just the batteries that are the issue, unless Elon is only saying that the batteries will be there within 100 days. Utility scale electrical equipment is generally bespoke and/or custom manufactured and has long lead times. On top of the batteries you need to have utility scale inverters. You need switchgear to direct the produced power, you need large transformers to boost it up to utility voltages. In the organization I work with, we just finished a major electrical upgrade where we purchased 12 pad-mount transformers. While they were out of the catalogue, the lead time before shipping was still 8 weeks, and that was from a major manufacturer. Really big transformers, those capable of working with megawatts of power, take months to manufacture.

    When Vancouver lost one of the two large transformers that supply the downtown part of the city, it was found that it would take 18 months to get a replacement manufactured.

    I'm quite sure getting all the permits takes longer than 100 days.
    Where can I sign the contract for a free 100MW battery storage system.

    Given that it took 1.125 days per MWh for Los Angeles, I wo

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  11. Lithium? What about Vanadium Redox? by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I was under the impression that Australia already had substantial industrial-scale power grid energy storage using vanadium redox flow batteries.

    Seems to me that's a better match to the problem - unless Tesla has made drastic improvements in cost and cycle-life as a fallout of their work to improve them for cars and house-scale renewable storage.

    Lithium Ion batteries are, IMHO, more about portability of energy storage than price-efficiency.

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  12. Re:Elon Musk by thegarbz · · Score: 4, Funny

    Personally I only ever hire armchair engineers. Real engineers are useless for a comedy show.