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Warrantless Surveillance Can Continue Even If Law Expires, Officials Say (theverge.com)

Posted by BeauHD on from the business-as-usual dept.

According to a New York Times report citing American officials, the Trump administration has decided that the National Security Agency and the FBI can lawfully keep operating their warrantless surveillance program even if Congress fails to extend the law authorizing it before an expiration date of New Year's Eve. The Verge reports: The White House believes the Patriot Act's surveillance provisions won't expire until four months into 2018. Lawyers point to a one-year certification that was granted on April 26th of last year. If that certification is taken as a legal authorization for the FISA court overall -- as White House lawyers suggest -- then Congress will have another four months to work out the details of reauthorization. There are already several proposals for Patriot Act reauthorization in the Senate, which focus the Section 702 provisions that authorize certain types of NSA surveillance. Some of the proposals would close the backdoor search loophole that allows for warrantless surveillance of U.S. citizens, although a recent House proposal would leave it in place. But with Congress largely focused on tax cuts and the looming debt ceiling fight, it's unlikely the differences could be reconciled before the end of the year.

33 of 68 comments (clear)

  1. But but but TRUMP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    But TRUMP promised he would make America great again!?!?!

    You fucking sheeple.

    1. Re:But but but TRUMP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Face it, you done goofed. Claiming that Hillary would have been worse at this point is like claiming that the hooker that you thought would short-change you is worse than the one who gave you AIDS.

  2. The Patriot Act by e3m4n · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Turning citizens into suspects since 2002.

  3. The PATRIOT act is not a law. by jcr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It is forbidden by the fourth and fifth amendments to the constitution. Any official exercising any of these usurped powers violates their oath.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    1. Re:The PATRIOT act is not a law. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The PATRIOT act is not a law. It is forbidden by the fourth and fifth amendments to the constitution. Any official exercising any of these usurped powers violates their oath.

      True.

      Unfortunately, until the Supreme Court has ruled that way, it can be used to harm you just as effectively as if it were a law. B-b

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    2. Re:The PATRIOT act is not a law. by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      It is a law until a judge rules it unconstitutional
      Until then, any official exercising any of those powers is doing their job. It's not their place to question the laws that congress have passed.

    3. Re:The PATRIOT act is not a law. by psycho12345 · · Score: 1

      Except this is the great weakness of US law: It is legal until challenged. I would bet there's dozens of laws on the books that would be ruled unconstitutional in a heartbeat if they were actually challenged. But usually they don't affect anyone, don't affect anyone worth mentioning, or no one has standing.

    4. Re:The PATRIOT act is not a law. by jcr · · Score: 1

      neither you nor anyone else here is qualified to make that judgment

      The hell I'm not. I can read English, and the language of the bill of rights is not ambiguous.

      The only people who are, are the supreme court

      Tell it to Korematsu.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    5. Re:The PATRIOT act is not a law. by fafalone · · Score: 1

      Yeah well so is the entire war on drugs, half our military actions, and a good part of the government itself. Unfortunately being obviously against the constitution doesn't actually mean anything when the court lacks the integrity to say so.

    6. Re:The PATRIOT act is not a law. by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      What's this "constitution" thing? Asking for a friend.

      - Trump.

    7. Re: The PATRIOT act is not a law. by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2

      In most cases those laws stay on the books through selective enforcement. For example the police arrest people if they know they are not in a position to fight it, but if they know you have the means to do so they would never dream of it. Most people don't understand that a law can be illegal. I can't tell you how many times someone told me "of course they can do that ... It's a law!"

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    8. Re: The PATRIOT act is not a law. by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      We know it's not Trump. The tiny fingered Don doesn't *have* friends!

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    9. Re:The PATRIOT act is not a law. by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 1

      I agree with your first sentence. If I were a judge, I might even rule that way.

      But, our opinions aside, how is your second sentence different from the gold-fringers, sovereign citizens and other people that believe their interpretation of the Constitution or the law supersedes that of our organized government?

      I really don't think you are wrong, but we can't operate as a society if we don't respect the outcome of the dispute resolution system even when disagree with the reasoning. That's why I draw the line between the first sentence (opinion about how the law ought to be interpreted) and the second sentence (statement that your opinion is dispositive about officials carrying out their oaths).

    10. Re:The PATRIOT act is not a law. by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      The voters don't care, and if they can't be bothered, how do you think anything is going to change?

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  4. FISA Court by AHuxley · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Thats one busy rubber stamp approving all the warrant applications.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  5. What happened to the sanctions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    So what happened to the sanctions against Russia with the deadline of 1st October??.... Nothing, it passed, Trump did nothing about it, spineless Repubs did not say a word. Foxsky Newsky quiet sides with Russia, never mentions it.

    Here's the thing, as long as he hasn't signed their tax bill yet, Trump can do whatever he wants because Republicans need him to sign it. He can interpret FISA court approvals as substitute for laws, he can simply flat out ignore laws Congress passes, FFS he can even create a death squad funded by Russia's Direct Investment Fund to kill his enemies*.

    Republicans will do nothing because they want their tax bill signed. Putin could march in the Whitehouse and declare direct rule, and they'd be fine as long as he promises to give them each their $4.4 million tax break.

    * Yeh, there is no low point that can't be undercut:
    https://theintercept.com/2017/12/04/trump-white-house-weighing-plans-for-private-spies-to-counter-deep-state-enemies/

  6. Re: haha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The white house is the executive branch, charged with enforcing the law. Of course law enforcement is going to say the expired law granting them power is still valid.

    It doesn't matter, though. Interpretation of law is the job of the judicial branch, not the executive branch. This is not newsworthy.

  7. Law? There is no law. by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...the Trump administration has decided that the National Security Agency and the FBI can lawfully keep operating their warrantless surveillance program even if Congress fails to extend the law...

    So, the government can "decide" to say they're still within the law even if the law doesn't exist.

    How different is that from the old USSR or post-WW2 Germany, exactly?

    --
    #DeleteFacebook
    1. Re:Law? There is no law. by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2

      How different is that from the old USSR or post-WW2 Germany, exactly?

      words in english tend to be shorter.

      other than that, not much diff at all!

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    2. Re:Law? There is no law. by locater16 · · Score: 2

      It isn't, welcome to modern America!

    3. Re:Law? There is no law. by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Re How different is that from the old USSR or post-WW2 Germany, exactly?
      The old USSR had a fear of West Germany been a base for another invasion. Again.
      West Germany had a fear of Soviet spies and East Germans pretending to be good West Germans.
      Another fear was the files East Germany and the USSR had on West Germany mil/gov and their work before 1945.
      Would people in West Germany be blackmailed by East Germany due to their 1945 past? Too many people in the West German gov/mil had ww2 secret pasts.
      In East Germany the fear was the CIA, West Germany, MI6, the GCHQ, NSA. CIA backed NGO groups.
      East Germany also had some doubts that the USSR would really support them and was doing secret deals with West Germany.
      East Germany would have had some good spies but for a constant need to support Communist revolutions around the world in really bad ways.
      Nations around 1970-80's South Africa became very aware of East German spies. Silvermine in South Africa was kept busy.

      The USA feared for all its billions in global collect it all spying a well placed Soviet spy was sitting in the US mil reading all the results in real time on a good US gov wage.
      The Soviet Union was just still using human spies and getting results for free.
      They why the CIA and NSA did all the domestic spying. They could not trust their own contractors. Everyone in the USA had to be watched for signs of contact with the USSR.

      The UK was busy looking at the USSR, West and East Germany. West Germany kept UK spies very busy due to EU trade deals. East Germany was just for practice and to keep spy skills up.
      A lot of UK spies got used in the USA watching Irish groups in the US sending support and cash to Ireland. That support was stopped in the US.

      Every side could tell its spies they had very real reasons to be spying.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    4. Re:Law? There is no law. by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Their people didn't rise up in resistance either and look what happened to them.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  8. Re: New Constitution by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 1

    Stop and think about that idea for a moment.

    Given the current think-state of the US government over the past few decades, would you really want these idiots to rewrite the constitution ?

    These are the very same idiots who WROTE the Patriot Act. The same idiots who like to exempt themselves from the laws they create.

    The same idiots who think it's perfectly fine to spy on everyone ( else ) for any reason and hide all of their illegal bullshit behind a veil of secrecy.

    You want these folks to rewrite the only fucking thing that currently protects any hint of a right at all ?

    Are you insane ?

  9. Meh, what a ya gonna do? by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    Unless you can get the electorate to stop voting in "tough on crime" politicians then you're never going to see this go away. You'd need a top down approach of people willing to uphold the letter and spirit of the law. You'd also need to keep those people in office so they could remake the courts that have long since been staffed with the kinds of judges who favor all this. That usually means decidedly left wing people (most "libertarian" politicians turn tough on crime once they're in office). Folks are too worried about their taxes going up or their corporate overloards getting angry over their voting choices to vote that way.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  10. Re:haha by MoaDweeb · · Score: 1

    That is what 5 eyes is for. Although they are not supposed to spy on another's citizens to circumvent local laws. With NZ's experience with our spooks I would not trust them to make coffee.

    --
    New Zealanders are well balanced with a chip on each shoulder. One represents Australia, the other the rest of the world
  11. Schism/seccesion now by slshdtisctrldbysjws · · Score: 1

    If you care about liberty, if you care about freedom, you should be devoting your thought to separating from this system. There is no fixing this. It simply has to die. We need to construct a viable alternative to pick up the pieces when it does.

    --
    My karma was manually wiped by site staff https://slashdot.org/~slshdtisctrldbysjws 18 mod up, 10 mod down = bad karma
    1. Re:Schism/seccesion now by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      Power corrupts, and bad people work to get in positions of power. We still haven't found a solution to those problems. And no, having new people just means the government can't do their job properly and gets taken advantage of easily.

    2. Re:Schism/seccesion now by slshdtisctrldbysjws · · Score: 1

      That is a lie. There is no solution to the problem of power. Because there is no problem - other than the people themselves. They are disingenuous lazy scum who will inevitably be selected against by nature.
      Power always exists. Because some who hold it become corrupt does not mean there is a problem with power. That is power fulfilling its natural role. A bad ruler cannot live for long, he will run his system to failure, probably at the cost of many lives. He takes down all of his followers. And as the world shrinks, it finally comes to the point where the rotten have no where to run.

      The "solution" is to have many powers of similar magnitude to compete.
      As humans we can realize this and apply our will to this end. Or we can wait and have nature establish this the hard way - at the cost of huge proportions, no doubt the vast majority, of the populations' lives.
      The current consolidation of power will be a divine gift to those who survive its downfall.

      --
      My karma was manually wiped by site staff https://slashdot.org/~slshdtisctrldbysjws 18 mod up, 10 mod down = bad karma
  12. warrantless by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

    Rubber stamps? We ain't got no rubber stamps. We don't need no rubber stamps. I don't have to show you any stinkin' rubber stamps!

  13. The 4th amendment by jfern · · Score: 1

    Maybe it should be mandatory for judges to learn about the 4th amendment?

  14. Laws? by TheZeal0t · · Score: 1

    Laws? We don't need LAWS where WE'RE going!

  15. Re:Descent by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    Create another Church Committee report. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
    This time stop the domestic spying rather than creating a rubber stamp court to keep it going.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  16. A too-seldomly occurring reminder by slshdtisctrldbysjws · · Score: 1

    Everything we do electronically or with a connected device attached to our persons is being monitored and recorded by the corporate/government system in order to create a psychological model of the population with individual resolution for the purpose of predicting and controlling our thoughts and actions.

    Seems to be working well to divide us. When will people get a grip on this horrible truth and stop being so easily redirected to attack each other rather than the perpetrators? This seems to be the end of the long-established civilizations.

    --
    My karma was manually wiped by site staff https://slashdot.org/~slshdtisctrldbysjws 18 mod up, 10 mod down = bad karma