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Net Neutrality: 'Father Of Internet' Joins Tech Leaders in Condemning Repeal Plan (theguardian.com)

More than 20 internet pioneers and leaders including the "father of the internet", Vint Cerf; the inventor of the world wide web, Tim Berners-Lee; and the Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak have urged the FCC to cancel its vote to repeal net neutrality, describing the plan as "based on a flawed and factually inaccurate" understanding of how the internet works. From a report: "The FCC's rushed and technically incorrect proposed order to repeal net neutrality protections without any replacement is an imminent threat to the internet we worked so hard to create. It should be stopped," said the technology luminaries in an open letter to lawmakers (PDF) with oversight of the Federal Communications Commission on Monday. The letter refers to the FCC's proposed Restoring Internet Freedom Order, which removes net neutrality protections introduced in 2015 to ensure that internet service providers (ISPs) such as Comcast, AT&T and Verizon would treat all web content and applications equally and not throttle, block or prioritise some content in return for payment. The FCC's vote on the proposed order is scheduled for 14 December and it is expected to be approved. "It is important to understand that the FCC's proposed order is based on a flawed and factually inaccurate understanding of Internet technology," the internet pioneers state, adding that the flaws were outlined in detail in a 43-page comment submitted by 200 tech leaders to the FCC in July.

94 of 170 comments (clear)

  1. Legal Phrasing by sconeu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not phrased in legal terms, therefore Pai will ignore it.

    Of course, if it was phrased the way he wanted, he'd find another reason to ignore it.

    --
    General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    1. Re:Legal Phrasing by AlanObject · · Score: 2, Insightful

      .. Pai will ignore it.

      It does seem more and more that the fix is in. Follow the money: "legal tender" trumps "public interest" every time.

    2. Re:Legal Phrasing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Both have their shills"
      What's that have to do with anything? Net neutrality is better for 95% of humanity.

      Are you compelled to feign a nuanced opinion when you don't know what's going on?

    3. Re:Legal Phrasing by mean+pun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Are you really insinuating that Vint Cerf, Tim Berners-Lee, and Steve Wozniak are shills? You're sure you're not a shill yourself?

    4. Re:Legal Phrasing by mean+pun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "obabas congress" is a rather misleading term. A better phrase would be "the congress that Obama had to fight and circumvent to get anything done".

    5. Re:Legal Phrasing by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're sure you're not a shill yourself?

      No one pays me to post my opinions on Net Neutrality. Vint Cerf's employer, Google, does pay him to post his.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    6. Re:Legal Phrasing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So did "legal tender" trump "public interest" when net neutrality was first introduced after 20 years of internet without it?

      Possibly, but the primary reason net neutrality laws were introduced was to stop the major abuse being performed by ISPs trying to destroy the open Internet.

      Had the ISPs not started fucking with the traffic of Netflix, Hulu, Youtube, and any news sites that directly competed with the media arms of the ISPs, such laws wouldn't have been needed like in the beginning.

      But of course over the last 10 of those 20 years you claim were fine, US ISPs were blocking competition and destroying Internet startups and had to be stopped.

      Just as with most all laws, net neutrality was reactionary to the abuses being performed at the time.
      Making such acts legal again will go right back to having all the problems you refuse to admit have been happening over the last decade.

    7. Re:Legal Phrasing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Please actually research the regulations you claim didn't exist.

      The fallacy that the internet was an unregulated wonderland prior to 2015 is believed only by the uninformed or those purposefully trying to mislead others.

      If you actually understood how title I and II work you'd realize that the only time the internet was NOT regulated similarly as it is under the 2015 order was in 2014 when they struck down the 2010 order (as old copper lines were already covered under title II).

      In 2014, broadband companies used a terrible interpretation of title I (claiming that since they provide e-mail and DNS services they should fall under title I instead of title II). Essentially since they weren't dumb phone lines they claimed, dishonestly but successfully, that they were not telecommunication services but rather information services.

      The people who actually understand how the internet works have argued continuously that the title I classification is incorrect based on how and what the internet is and how it functions.

      The internet didn't need to be "regulated" as title II before since phone lines already were regulated (that's why before you had multiple small ISPs competing in every area plus some larger players like netscape, aol, prodigy, etc). Just because we replaced copper wires with cable and fiber doesn't mean we should magically change the way the internet is regulated. It should continue to be regulated like a utility.

    8. Re:Legal Phrasing by orgelspieler · · Score: 2

      You need to revisit the definition of shill. People who are deeply enthusiastic about something and share their opinions are not shills. You can call them activists, proponents, meat-puppets, or annoying relatives. They are only shills if they do not honestly hold the opinions they espouse, and are expressing them in order to get some remuneration from an interested party. It's possible there are people on both sides who are paid shills, but it's more likely that there are just a lot of Americans who don't want the Internet to turn into yet another bastion of unadulterated, pay-for-every-fucking-thing capitalism. (see airlines and healthcare)

    9. Re:Legal Phrasing by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1, Informative

      I'd say the Internet worked pretty well with light touch regulation. Net Neutrality was only a legal requirement from 2015 when Wheeler was FCC chair. It was suspended in 2017 when Pai was chair. That period is too short to say it's 'better for 95% of humanity'.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Google obviously see it as good for them.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    10. Re:Legal Phrasing by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 1

      It's not phrased in legal terms, therefore Pai will ignore it.

      Sarcasm aside, if you actually take a look at the submission it's pretty clear it was written by lawyers.

    11. Re:Legal Phrasing by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Funny

      No one pays me to post my opinions on Net Neutrality.

      And that's still more than they're worth.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    12. Re:Legal Phrasing by JohnFen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Light touch" regulation failed. ISPs began to abuse their positions, and that's why NN became a thing.

      It's true that if we could somehow get a real competitive market in place where people had real options for where people get their internet service from, we wouldn't need anything like NN. I suspect that everyone (except the ISPs) would prefer that solution.

      However, that appears to be an impossible goal. So, the next best thing is something like NN regulations.

      The worst possible thing is the FCC's position of just letting the ISPs do as they please. The FCC is saying "fuck you" to us all -- either we have to be OK with bending over for the ISPs or we get to do without the internet.

    13. Re:Legal Phrasing by spatley · · Score: 1

      Net Neutrality's potential impact on Google and Facebook's current business is overall evenly positive and negative, leaning slightly toward the negative.

      Big orgs like this have the bargaining power to negotiate "fast lane" traffic and use those agreements to squash their competitors if Neutrality was rolled back. If you had to have a new multi million dollar contract with a telecom to get any of your traffic to be transmitted, Those are certainly the ones that have the power. and this will give big players a distinct advantage.
      The only real minus for big computing that I can figure out is that it will reduce the number of startups and new ideas that emerge and become potential acquisition targets for them.

    14. Re:Legal Phrasing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Internet did work pretty well before it was mistakenly reclassified as an "information service". Still, this wasn't a problem until sufficient computational power became available within routers for deep packet inspection. This sort of practice should never have been allowed in the first place, and in a market absent competition, abuse was inevitable. Once the technology was available, large ISPs began their assault on net neutrality, and they didn't stop until forced to.

      Here is a record of known abuses, which will only be the beginning should Pai have his way. That list is almost certainly incomplete, and abuses will grow to be much worse now that ISPs have unprecedented power to extort both customers and third parties alike.

    15. Re:Legal Phrasing by p4nther2004 · · Score: 1

      Big orgs like this have the bargaining power to negotiate "fast lane" traffic and use those agreements to squash their competitors if Neutrality was rolled back

      Cough. Big orgs like this have the bargaining power to be PAID if Neutrality is rolled back.

      No one watches CableVision/BrightHouse. They watch CBS, NBC, Fox. CableVision/BrightHouse PAY CBS, NBC, Fox to carry their content.

    16. Re:Legal Phrasing by Wraithlyn · · Score: 1

      Telecom companies are natural monopolies due to physical cable infrastructure. How do you propose to change that?

      Is "common carrier" status also a band-aid?

      --
      "Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
    17. Re:Legal Phrasing by Solandri · · Score: 1, Troll

      During Obama's 8 years in office, The Democrats controlled the House for 2 years, and the Senate for 6 years. During Obama's first two years in office, the Democrats controlled both the House and Senate, and for 6 months had a supermajority in the Senate (could not be stopped by fillibusters). They had a good chance of passing anything during those 2 years (just needed to convince 2 Republican Senators not to fillibuster), and could've passed anything they wanted with impunity during those six months.

      That they didn't pass any net neutrality legislation during those years tells you it's not really that important to them. And that their current protestations about it are merely to force the Trump administration to "fight and circumvent to get anything done."

      The things they did choose to pass during those two years were unpopular enough with the voters that the following election they lost control of the House by the largest swing since 1938, and almost lost control of the Senate (where only 1/3 of the senators were up for re-election). Compare this to net neutrality which seems to have pretty universal support outside of monopoly ISPs, and might even have helped them in the election if they'd bothered to pass it.

    18. Re: Legal Phrasing by omnichad · · Score: 1

      The perfect people to send a message to Congress!

    19. Re:Legal Phrasing by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So Google and Facebook are push NN out of the goodness of their hearts? I find that very hard to believe. Particularly as both of them were involved in the non Net Neutral Internet Basics in India

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      They obviously see NN as being a plus in the US where they're don't own the ISPs. In other places, they're trying to own the ISPs and don't want Net Neutrality.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    20. Re:Legal Phrasing by omnichad · · Score: 1

      "obabas congress" is a rather misleading term.

      Sure. Maybe even a meaningless one.

    21. Re:Legal Phrasing by oldmac31310 · · Score: 2

      Great link AC. Everyone should read that.

      --
      http://www.acetonestudio.com
    22. Re:Legal Phrasing by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      Above Trump should read Obama.

    23. Re:Legal Phrasing by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      The reason it was enacted, though, was because the large ISPs saw dollar signs in requiring Internet companies to pay them or have their services slowed down.

      Exhibit A: Ed Whitacre, then CEO of AT&T, saying Google gets a free ride on AT&T's systems. (When Google actually pays for their own bandwidth even if they aren't paying AT&T directly.)

      Exhibit B: Comcast allowing their peering connections to saturate so Netflix would slow down. This was to either a) keep Comcast users from using Netflix or b) force Netflix to directly pay Comcast to restore what should have been basic network operations.

      When the ISPs abused their positions and wanted to charge both ends for the same service, Network Neutrality was enacted. Now, when it's removed, they'll be free to move forward with the plans they had not that many years ago.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    24. Re:Legal Phrasing by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      I would definitely prefer if we didn't need Net Neutrality. If I could choose from 10 or more ISPs, market pressure might keep them in check. Instead, I have 1 ISP: Charter. If Charter abuses their monopoly position, I can either complain while paying them anyway or go without Internet. Neither puts any kind of check on Charter's actions.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    25. Re:Legal Phrasing by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      It's just a bunch people shilling for Comcast and Verizon vs another bunch of people shilling for Google and Facebook.

      What a perfect example of a false dilemma. An either/or proposition that's based off a flawed assumption -- that if you're in favor of Net Neutrality, you're in Google and Facebook's pocket.

      In this particular issue, what we have here is something that benefits Comcast and Verizon and other large telecoms/cable companies, and adversely affects EVERYONE ELSE, so in that case, of course my interests align with Google's and Facebook's. I get screwed, Facebook gets screwed, we all get screwed, except for the gatekeepers.

      The intention for that seems transparent: It's the company line of Comcast and Verizon that Net Neutrality is just trying to benefit Facebook and Google as a way to make it sound like it's big business favoritism, thus undercutting the moral argument for NN. So by pushing that message, they get to change the message from "Big ISPs use their monopoly/duopoly position to force sites to pay them extra" to "Comcast/Verizon want money, Facebook/Google want money, the only right decision is to not have rules saying who is right."

    26. Re:Legal Phrasing by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      I'd say the Internet worked pretty well with light touch regulation.

      You're right, it worked just fine UNTIL ISPS started pulling these shenanigans. The 2015 regulations were put into place as a direct result of the previous years of escalation when the ISPs started slowing down Youtube and Netflix until they started coughing up fees beyond bandwidth costs. This isn't a slim window here, we have a evidence of this happening for much of the last decade.

    27. Re:Legal Phrasing by sabri · · Score: 1

      Telecom companies are natural monopolies due to physical cable infrastructure. How do you propose to change that?

      Traditional phone companies are limited to physical cable infrastructure. Modern internet companies are not. In most civilized countries outside of the U.S., the last mile is a shared resource, allowing multiple operators to work on the same physical infrastructure.

      The only way to stop the might of large internet corporations is to enable and support a healthy competitive market. Simply having the government dictate how private property can be configured, is not the solution.

      Is "common carrier" status also a band-aid?

      Common carrier status does not legally impact a network's ability to run differentiated services over the same infrastructure.

      --
      I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
    28. Re:Legal Phrasing by Holi · · Score: 1

      If it was phrased in a way he wants it would say "Abolish Net Neutrality. -Your beloved owner Verizon"

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    29. Re:Legal Phrasing by Holi · · Score: 1

      Net Neutrality did not come out of a vacuum, it was a response to some heavy handed action from the major ISP's.

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    30. Re:Legal Phrasing by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      "obabas congress" is a rather misleading term. A better phrase would be "the congress that Obama had to fight and circumvent to get anything done".

      Are we also talking about the first two years of Obama's term when the Democratic Party had a super-majority in both houses of Congress?

    31. Re:Legal Phrasing by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1, Informative

      MADISON RIVER: In 2005, North Carolina ISP Madison River Communications blocked the voice-over-internet protocol (VOIP) service Vonage. Vonage filed a complaint with the FCC after receiving a slew of customer complaints. The FCC stepped in to sanction Madison River and prevent further blocking, but it lacks the authority to stop this kind of abuse today.

      So they got fined by the FCC and stopped doing it

      https://www.cnet.com/news/telc...

      COMCAST: In 2005, the nationâ(TM)s largest ISP, Comcast, began secretly blocking peer-to-peer technologies that its customers were using over its network. Users of services like BitTorrent and Gnutella were unable to connect to these services. 2007 investigations from the Associated Press, the Electronic Frontier Foundation and others confirmed that Comcast was indeed blocking or slowing file-sharing applications without disclosing this fact to its customers.

      The FCC ruled against them and they said they'd move to different mechanisms to handle 'high bandwidth customers'.

      https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/...

      TELUS: In 2005, Canadaâ(TM)s second-largest telecommunications company, Telus, began blocking access to a server that hosted a website supporting a labor strike against the company. Researchers at Harvard and the University of Toronto found that this action resulted in Telus blocking an additional 766 unrelated sites.

      This is bad. On the other hand Google and Facebook have also blocked content on political grounds on Youtube and Facebook and everyone told me 'private company, First Amendment doesn't apply'.

      Obviously it's Canada so the First Amendment doesn't apply, and neither do FCC rules. It seems very bad though

      https://thetyee.ca/News/2005/0...

      AT&T: From 2007â"2009, AT&T forced Apple to block Skype and other competing VOIP phone services on the iPhone. The wireless provider wanted to prevent iPhone users from using any application that would allow them to make calls on such âoeover-the-topâ voice services. The Google Voice app received similar treatment from carriers like AT&T when it came on the scene in 2009.

      Apple operate a walled garden and if AT&T convinced them to block apps from their store, they can do that. Net Neutrality doesn't affect this

      WINDSTREAM: In 2010, Windstream Communications, a DSL provider with more than 1 million customers at the time, copped to hijacking user-search queries made using the Google toolbar within Firefox. Users who believed they had set the browser to the search engine of their choice were redirected to Windstreamâ(TM)s own search portal and results.

      They were exposed in the press and backed off the change.

      https://www.dslreports.com/sho...

      MetroPCS: In 2011, MetroPCS, at the time one of the top-five U.S. wireless carriers, announced plans to block streaming video over its 4G network from all sources except YouTube. MetroPCS then threw its weight behind Verizonâ(TM)s court challenge against the FCCâ(TM)s 2010 open internet ruling, hoping that rejection of the agencyâ(TM)s authority would allow the company to continue its anti-consumer practices.

      The service seems pretty terrible but who cares? It's not like you don't have a choice of other mobile carriers if you don't like it.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      " Slate's Farhad Manjoo panned the service by suggesting that MetroPCS was able to

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    32. Re:Legal Phrasing by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      No one thought Obama should be king. If anyone hated Obama as much as the GOP, it was all the liberals he let down by being centrist and tepid.

      We approved of things like executive orders or FCC making rules because the action, not the actor, were right.

      Additionally, we didn't invent them specifically for Obama. Yes, we may have been fans of the DACA executive order, but if we had screamed bloody murder about it, executive orders would still be there for Trump to abuse.

      Finally, if you think net neutrality would be safe had Obama insisted that the republican controlled congress set the rules, I have high speed internet to sell you.

    33. Re:Legal Phrasing by mikael · · Score: 1

      They needed the computational power in order to do packet routing with 100Mbit networks. At the time, that required custom ASIC's rather than CPU's. Once the power is there to inspect MAC addresses, IP addresses, ports and packet sizes, other data like protocol versions becomes trivial to analyze.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    34. Re:Legal Phrasing by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2

      Gee I can't win here can I?

      "How do we know you're not a shill!"

      "Well no one pays me to post my opinions"

      "Ha, that proves your opinions are worthless".

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    35. Re:Legal Phrasing by Straif · · Score: 1

      Exhibit B: Comcast allowing their peering connections to saturate so Netflix would slow down. This was to either a) keep Comcast users from using Netflix or b) force Netflix to directly pay Comcast to restore what should have been basic network operations.

      This is almost everyone's goto example for the need for NN laws but even in your own description it has absolutely nothing to do with NN or the regulations that were passed to enact it. Allowing peering connections to become oversaturated has to do with interconnectivity between networks and NOT how the packets are handle within a given network.
      It's like throwing a party for 50 people at a house with a only a 2 car driveway and no street parking and then forcing the town to increase speed limits to try and deal with parking issues. The 'solution' has nothing to do with the problem.

      In the Netflix case the problem was they opted for a service provider that wanted to go cheap and force their cost on the residential ISPs. Peering agreements tend to be balanced through either data transfers or monetary compensation. If traffic tends to be about equal in both directions then no money needs to change hands but when traffic is 90% going one way the abusing network is expected to compensate the other by some means. With the explosion of Netflix traffic their ISP wanted to continue with outdated peering agreements even though the data transfers were ridiculously unbalanced. NN does nothing to combat this.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    36. Re:Legal Phrasing by jafac · · Score: 1

      Vint Cerf sits on the National Science Board - pretty much for free. That's a vital service he provides to our nation, and he's done it for 30+ years.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    37. Re:Legal Phrasing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Exactly! It is clear that Ijit Pie and possibly others at the FCC have been bought and paid for to push the agenda that the big ISPs and Telecom companies want. Want to see who benefits most from pretty much anything these days? FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!!!

    38. Re:Legal Phrasing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The only way to win around here is to get a +5 funny rating.

    39. Re:Legal Phrasing by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      It's hard to take moral argument seriously when the same people making them say it's fine for Google and FB to censor or ban people on their networks because 'it's a private company, the First Amendment doesn't apply'. Well no, it doesn't. But not everywhere is the US and free speech is a wider concept than speech protected by the First Amendment. And if it's a moral argument not a legal one, shouldn't it be a wider issue than the First Amendment?

      Actually Net Neutrality is very narrow issue - it's whether ISPs should be regulated under Title II or not.

      And it turns out you can make a pro NN argument for not regulating ISPs under Title II

      E.g.

      https://stratechery.com/2017/p...

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    40. Re:Legal Phrasing by burtosis · · Score: 1

      legal tender terms

      ftfy

    41. Re:Legal Phrasing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Vint Cerf sits on the National Science Board - pretty much for free. That's a vital service he provides to our nation, and he's done it for 30+ years.

      He also is or has been a Vice President at Google, I presume paid very significant amounts of USD. While employed by them, he testified before congress about network neutrality. The financial conflict of interest is readily apparent. I.e. one should interpret his views on Network Neutrality as being most closely aligned with Google's. I personally don't consider Google's views on Network Neutrality to be ethically consistent. Note well how they only allow "non-commercial" server use on their Google Fiber ISP in Utah. Smells like a use-restriction tax/rent/tribute kind of thing to me. Hardly in the spirit of FCC-10-201 implying that there were no such taxing gatekeepers on cybercommerce.

    42. Re:Legal Phrasing by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      It's hard to take moral argument seriously when the same people making them say it's fine for Google and FB to censor or ban people on their networks because 'it's a private company, the First Amendment doesn't apply'. Well no, it doesn't. But not everywhere is the US

      Everywhere is not the US, but Google and Facebook are bound by US laws. We're especially talking about US laws when we're discussing US government action being taken against them, which is what the result of laws restricting behavior would be. But regardless of legal arguments, if I set up a service, it's really my choice whether I want, say, hate speech on it, unless having such speech violates the laws of where my service is hosted. And if I don't want to work to provide a platform for such speech, I shouldn't have to. It should be my choice. And that choice is just more important than your desire to use my platform for your own speech. This doesn't even get into the cases of people who were banned for actual harassment of other users.

      You have freedom of speech. But no one should be compelled against their will to work to give you the platform that you prefer to express yourself. You have other choices. I don't really use Google for communication, just for the occasional web search. I don't use Facebook at all, and I'm not really missing anything (according to my friends who are still on Facebook). I'm not going to file lawsuits against either of them because their services don't meet my wants. I just looked elsewhere and found places that work better for me for socializing.

      To bring it full circle, people usually don't have that choice in broadband ISPs. They ISPs are given monopoly or duopoly power (in the case of cable + telco). If they want that power, that power had better come with more open requirements. They were able to get away with their shakedowns of Netflix (most prominently, though nowadays people seem to forget this because Netflix caved and raised their subscription rates years ago) but also Google, HBO (that was a weird story), and pretty much any content provider which competed with the ISP, because these mega-ISPs are also content providers now.

      That, among many other reasons is why this whole Comcast/Verizon vs Facebook/Google is comparing apples to bananas. The issues involved are not at all similar.

  2. Like a heel in wrestling by t0qer · · Score: 1

    Sometimes I think the current administration is just doing things to purposely piss people off, like a heel in wrestling.

    1. Re:Like a heel in wrestling by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Sometimes I think the current administration is just doing things to purposely piss people off, like a heel in wrestling.

      T is a WWE fan, so it wouldn't surprise me. Most politicians usually try diplomatic or indirect wording when they criticize in order to avoid inflaming those criticized. T tossed that rule out the window and jumped up and down on it with his 300 lb body: Twitter seems connected directly to the core of his brain (micro-USB ;-)

      Another problem is consistency. In the past he's talked about benefits of certain types of regulation, but now it seems ALL regulation is "bad". Is he confused, or is it part of his intentional trolling kit?

    2. Re:Like a heel in wrestling by reg · · Score: 2

      Twitter seems connected directly to the core of his brain (micro-USB ;-)

      Given the lack of error correction, I'm pretty sure it is an old school 2-wire serial link, with no parity bits (can you have disparity bits?) and definitely no stop bits. Also seems to suffer from lots of external interference....

  3. This why Google hired Vint Cerf by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

    He's a bona fide e celebrity and he's also very pro Net Neutrality. Which Google clearly see as being in their long term interests.

    --
    echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  4. Learn to read by Comboman · · Score: 5, Informative

    Both the article and summary state Vint Cerf is the father of the Internet and Berners-Lee is the inventor of the World Wide Web.

    --
    Support Right To Repair Legislation.
  5. Re:TBL is NOT the "father of the Internet" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And _he_ wouldn't make the claim either. TBL is the father of the _World Wide Web_.

    You also wouldn't be able to find a person under the age of 30 who would know the difference, thus making semantics rather pointless.

    In fact, with the way we've marketed ourselves away from the "www" domain preface, I doubt if even 25% of the population even knows what the hell the "World Wide Web" is. The masses only know it as the "internet" now (or in the case of GenY/Z, their "left arm").

  6. Repealing Net Neutrality by Camel+Pilot · · Score: 2

    What is the problem they are trying to fix by repealing Net Neutrality? I don't get it...

    1. Re:Repealing Net Neutrality by Tablizer · · Score: 4, Informative

      What is the problem they are trying to fix by repealing Net Neutrality? I don't get it...

      GOP more or less says, "It gives companies freedom to innovate and create jobs. More freedom = more jobs & more innovation."

      Of course there are practical limits to the benefits of high-freedom, and as most of us know, oligopolies usually end up abusing freedom to lock out competition and lock in customers; ruining what capitalism is supposed to provide in theory: competition and choice.

      The bottom line is that telecom oligopolies spend a lot of campaign donations to get their way: and bribery works.

    2. Re:Repealing Net Neutrality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That it was a violation of federal law when it was implemented. They want to revert back to the prior ways before someone challenges it in the courts and the current administration is forced to defend a regulation they did not put in place and do not agree with.

    3. Re:Repealing Net Neutrality by sdinfoserv · · Score: 1

      Yes, the cabal of major ISPs (AT&T/Comcast/Verizon) are prohibited from carving the internet into a cable like system with Net Neutrality, preventing them from changing you by the "station", or in this case, site. Additionally, they want be able to develop "profiles" of your surfing habits and sell them to marketers without your knowledge or permission.
      Repealing NN is an estimated $8B dollar gimme to the cabal.
      To achieve their aim, they have peppered congress with $101M in gravy to ensure their victory.
      https://www.theverge.com/2017/...
      Of course, unlike cable providers, ISP's do not have to license or bid for content for rebroadcast. We as end users are already paying for content (netflix/prime/hulu subscriptions) and for the connections. Remember the definition of ISP (Internet Service Provider?), Despite record profits, that model isn't good enough for them:
      https://www.reuters.com/articl...
      No matter what the people think, or who says it, NN will be repealed. may god have mercy on their souls and our check books.

    4. Re:Repealing Net Neutrality by bigpat · · Score: 2

      What is the problem they are trying to fix by repealing Net Neutrality? I don't get it...

      I will bite. I hope this is going to be one step back and two steps forward and not just one step back. But being skeptical is likely the wisest response.

      Though I don't agree with lifting net neutrality in this fashion without the FCC actually addressing at least the technical aspects of what minimum standard levels of inter-connectivity we want and need for our telecoms to provide to the country. But I do and did disagree with the blanket approach to Net Neutrality which appeared to focus too much on content and business arrangements rather than the technical aspects that are needed to ensure the robust, resilient and reliable communication system that the Internet is intended to be.

      Differentiation of services has been built right into the protocols. One reason there are QoS bits in the header on an IPv6 packet is so the networks can prioritize traffic. And yes, even to charge more for higher priority traffic. Now that was more so envisioned for things like emergency calls or things that needed less latency or putting lower priority on packets that could be delivered at a higher latency at a later time. But as I understand it, paid prioritization for a better QoS or paying less for deliver later QoS was considered right from the beginning of IPv6... In many cases there is a higher cost to hardware and networks that deliver packets faster, though to some extent delivering faster is less expensive from a hardware, electricity and memory caching perspective.

      However, that doesn't mean we want telecoms making decisions about peering with other networks (or not peering) based on content and business arrangements that harm consumer choice. But I do see some real use cases where end users themselves might want all the networks from point A to point B to get a little something extra for prioritizing certain packets and delivering a better overall experience. And it has benefited technology in general to establish a virtuous cycle where early adopters can pay more early on for improved services that are rolled out to everyone else at affordable prices later. So, a blanket prohibition doesn't make sense either.

      The devil is in the details of the regulation and what comes next. We really should want to see a more equitable society where we aren't metered at every turn for bandwidth and quality of service. And charged hundreds of times over for bandwidth and service we are already paying for. Or throttled so that only the top paid tier of services can actually make good use of the full Internet. The playing field is far too rigged as it is.

      But probably some of those details should come from the Federal Trade Commission and are more about lack of options and what it means to have local monopolies where people don't have meaningful choices of Internet access providers where the rules of a free market would otherwise help weed out bad business practices and choices that customers don't want. The government interest is in fostering a free market. If local monopolies are the only Internet option, then regulation must prevent extension of anti-competitive practices.

      And probably the FCC should really be getting down to the technical details of exactly how telecoms connect up their networks and regulating them to make sure that they are providing the necessary connections for the communications their customers want. Just as they do with spectrum to maximize the usefulness of limited spectrum to the public.

      For simplicity, "Net Neutrality" has been an easier way to regulate, but it probably isn't the best possible way. That said, I don't see the FCC moving towards the more hands on technical approach of regulating the Internet like they regulate spectrum. I think you could get to a net neutrality like approach under the regulatory framework of minimum standards for ensuring a robust, resilient and reliable national communication system rather than with

    5. Re:Repealing Net Neutrality by pots · · Score: 1

      Of course there are practical limits to the benefits of high-freedom

      That's one way to look at it. You could also see it as a case of competing freedoms: the telecoms' freedom to fuck us over... er, ::hem:: the telecoms' freedom to take advantage of their market position, vs. everyone else's freedom to use the internet as they choose (rather than in whichever way the telecoms choose).

    6. Re:Repealing Net Neutrality by crunchygranola · · Score: 1

      If Trump/Pai stick to the free market dogma and also outlaw local governments from granting service monopolies, then net neutrality isn't needed.

      Outlawing local monopolies would help some (although how this can be legally implemented I am unsure of - I am sure that Trump/Pai can't do it) but would hardly eliminate the need.

      There all kinds of ways of preventing competition for the local distribution system (the pole access restrictions on Google requiring them to get their competitor to agree to perform service...). But most important is the high cost of entry.

      It is economically infeasible for many competitors to lay down fiber - it is a 'natural monopoly'. We need laws and regulations that require open access to a single fiber network, just like we have common access to roads. Geometry makes the idea of competing companies building competing private roads to everyone's homes obviously ridiculous, but economically the situation for fiber isn't much different.

      --
      Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
    7. Re:Repealing Net Neutrality by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      What is the problem they are trying to fix by repealing Net Neutrality?

      The problem they are trying to fix is that the major telecoms are slightly limited in how much they can rip off the public. They want to remove those limits.

  7. Technology is ampliative by Adeimantus9 · · Score: 1

    Technology just amplifies what's already there. For the people who are interested in using it it expand their world and genuinely connect with and learn from others, I think social media is tremendously beneficial. But if you're determined to be prejudiced, it can give you an endless source of justification for your prejudices, and if you're vulnerable to disinformation, you can find enough to choke on. Most importantly, both the good and bad effects are probably at work in everyone. Otherwise smart, good people can make really dumb mistakes.

  8. Re:TBL is NOT the "father of the Internet" by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

    That's not what is being claimed

    "father of the internet", Vint Cerf; the inventor of the world wide web, Tim Berners-Lee; and the Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak

    In xml it would be

    <?xml version="1.0"?>
    <xml>
      <people>
        <person id="0">
          <title>father of the internet</title>
          <name>Vint Cerf</name>
        </person>
        <person id="1">
          <title>inventor of the world wide web</title>
          <name>Tim Berners-Lee</name>
        </person>
        <person id="2">
          <title>Apple co-founder</title>
          <name>Steve Wozniak</name>
        </person>
      </people>
    </xml>

    --
    echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  9. Re:Enough already by mean+pun · · Score: 2

    Net neutrality was introduced to stop nasty things that were planned or introduced by the ISPs. There was an imminent threat when it was introduced, and the ISPs certainly haven't become any nicer in the meantime.

  10. All it will take is 1 money man to control it all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    All it will take is 1 money man to control it all & buy up all the ISPs out there (yes, it's doable - monopoly laws = shit now) to control what is said, seen, & heard.

    APK

    P.S.=> Welcome to the 'gated community' that is going to be nothing more than a cattle herding brainwashing system to CONTROL THE MASSES (who often don't think for themselves which IS excusable as they're only products of their environmental inputs believing what they're told as I was myself as a boy believing they actually TELL THE TRUTH - no more of that here in "garbage in/garbage out I/O data of the mind") - & what do the controllers DO if you tell it how it is & they have no VALID response? This -> https://apple.slashdot.org/com... TRYING TO HIDE IT!... apk

  11. Net Neutrality by Presto+Vivace · · Score: 1

    Public Support, “Light Touch” Regulation, and the Coming Court Challenges https://www.nakedcapitalism.co... So, handing over half of US households to the tender mercies of an ISP monopoly is transparent, alright, but not, I think, in the way that Pai means. I’m sure the populist farmers and Grangers of Minnesota or South Dakota who had to ship their grain to market over one railroad in the 1880s would find RIFO oddly familiar. “Freedom for whom?” they might ask.

  12. Meanwhile... by x0ra · · Score: 2

    Google arbitrarily blocks Amazon devices from accessing its content... https://www.ft.com/content/500...

    1. Re:Meanwhile... by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      That has nothing to do with Net Neutrality. As the Obama administration passed the NN regulations, Google would still be free to do that. Funny how Google and co were never harmed by NN. Wonder whose pockets they line.

  13. Re:TBL is NOT the "father of the Internet" by arth1 · · Score: 1

    Could be they don't teach how semicolons are used in school anymore.
    The youth of today probably think their use are as separators in video game titles.

  14. Re:Regulation yeah right by orlanz · · Score: 2

    Hummm, on one side we have ISPs, Ajit a lawyer, fake public comments, and random Slashdot posters. On the other we have independent media companies, the old FCC head who was an ISP insider, EFF, 20 internet leaders, boat load of public comments, and random Slashdot posters.

    Which side to pick... decisions decisions... hummm... so tough to choose.

  15. Re:Enough already by sgrover · · Score: 1

    See the story here: https://yro.slashdot.org/story.... This is what the rest of the world will look like without net neutrality.

  16. [correction] Re:Repealing Net Neutrality by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    Correction: "...spend a lot on campaign donations..." (not "of")

  17. Does *anyone* actually support repeal? by v1 · · Score: 1

    besides Trump and Big Business / the cable providers I mean...

    --
    I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    1. Re:Does *anyone* actually support repeal? by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Re:Does *anyone* actually support repeal?...besides Trump and Big Business / the cable providers I mean...

      If Fox News, Rush L., Breitbart News, and their copy-cats say "it's good", most their readers/viewers will believe it uncritically.

      If "the liberals" hate it, it must be good. It's being spun as a plot by liberals to gain control of the media and make government bigger, giving the gov't more power to force socialism on red states, outlaw Christmas, take away their guns, create welfare-dependent zombies who vote for more welfare, etc. Basically, an old-fashioned slippery-slope argument.

      Their script is pretty predictable by now for anyone who has followed politics for a few decades.

    2. Re:Does *anyone* actually support repeal? by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      If "the liberals" hate it, it must be good. It's being spun as a plot by liberals to gain control of the media and make government bigger, giving the gov't more power to force socialism on red states, outlaw Christmas, take away their guns, create welfare-dependent zombies who vote for more welfare, etc. Basically, an old-fashioned slippery-slope argument.

      As much as I'm personally in favor of Net Neutrality, giving the FCC power to impose Internet regulations is a VERY VERY bad thing. It always has been, the 1990s is a nice list of case studies why giving government regulatory power on the Internet is terrible. The only reason there's any discussion here is the ISPs have been forcing everyone's hand, and that citizens don't have choice in the broadband world.

    3. Re:Does *anyone* actually support repeal? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      the 1990s is a nice list of case studies why giving government regulatory power on the Internet is terrible.

      What are the 2 strongest examples?

    4. Re:Does *anyone* actually support repeal? by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      The Communications Decency Act is a good start. Other anti-pornography/decency laws dovetail nicely into it. Porn was the most visible difference, but diversity of opinion, an open expression of ideas, knowledge on all sorts of subjects (though mostly computers). Sadly, 20 years later, we're far far more divided and partisan than we ever were, but back then on the 'net, everyone's big chant was "don't meddle with our Internet." We liked its Wild West flavor. We didn't want tons of regulations for what we're allowed to look at, or do, or talk about. Everyone knew at some point the government would try to step in, and everyone hoped that can could be kicked down the road for as long as possible. All you had to do was look at the wasteland of broadcast television at the time, or anything decided by "standards and practices," and didn't want the 'net to become so stifled and creatively void.

      Another good example is the entire history of the telecommunications industry until the breakup of Ma Bell. The entire history of broadcast television. Etcetc. The US federal government has a pretty good history of absolutely stifling and slowing to a standstill any communications fields it gets into.

    5. Re:Does *anyone* actually support repeal? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Communications Decency Act is a good start. Other anti-pornography/decency laws dovetail nicely into it.

      Ironically, conservatives are the one who want to regulate sex and sexual issues in communications & elsewhere, the same ones who otherwise claim laissez faire is usually the best route. Conservatives are for freedom of the wallet, but not freedom of sex/gender.

    6. Re:Does *anyone* actually support repeal? by Trogre · · Score: 1

      Very much so.

      When Donald Trump pulled the US out of negotiations for the despicable TPPA for example, protesters around the world who were vehemently opposed to the deal suddenly fell silent and eventually came back saying perhaps the deal wasn't so bad after all.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
  18. Oh wait, you're serious. by mcmonkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "It is important to understand that the FCC's proposed order is based on a flawed and factually inaccurate understanding of Internet technology."

    It's not they don't understand. It's that they don't care. Or put another way, it's not a bug, it's a feature.

    The powers-that-be behind the repeal of Net Neutrality know what the effects will be. They're counting on them.

  19. Yes, absolutely by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I'm not sure any law is needed. All the screeching seems to be about actions that would already be illegal or actionable by either States or DOJ, or companies that were harmed. It's called Anti-trust and unfair competition.

    It's been pointed out that NN regulation might legitimately be something the FTC should regulate.

    NN deals essentially with trade and business practices, while the FCC is supposed to deal with airwaves and technical issues, so FTC seems like a good fit.

    1. Re:Yes, absolutely by mlyle · · Score: 1

      FCC deals with plenty of "trade and business practices." They've traditionally been the primary agency regulating telecom business at a federal level as far as tariffs and interconnection agreements and universal access. Yes, the DOJ and FTC are involved too.

      Net neutrality is fundamentally both. It's a set of technical standards posed against business practices. ("OK, what kinds of things are OK for network management, and what kinds of things cross the line into favoring some kinds of traffic to leverage monopoly powers in the last mile?" "OK, peering. What's the tradeoff between legitimately complaining another carrier is being push-heavy vs. trying to make it hard for netflix to get into your network?")

  20. Logic Shmojic [Re:Oh wait, you're serious.] by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    Too many slashdotters are surprised politicians and political appointees are not logical. Keep in mind you are dealing with Ferengi's, NOT Vulcans. Rule of Acquisition #623: "Logic is Not Profitable" (disclaimer: I made up that ROA, although there are existing similar ones.)

    Note that I am not making a distinction between parties nor administrations here. It's a general rule. As far which group is more Ferengish, I'll leave that debate to another thread. And you can substitute "power" for profits in many situations.

  21. Re:TBL is NOT the "father of the Internet" by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    The youth of today probably think their use are as separators in video game titles.

    Muphry's Law, isn't it?

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  22. bastards by zlives · · Score: 1

    the father need to produce more bastard internets this one has grown sick and is about to die.

  23. Re:Fixing overreach by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

    You may believe this, but I can assure you that most lawmakers who oppose net neutrality are not as concerned about the nature of net neutrality's legislation as they are about the very existence of such regulations in any form. I would bet good money that if it were done "the right way" as you propose, conservatives would still work to repeal net neutrality, using some other excuse to conceal motives which most people would consider to be mustache-twirling villainy.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  24. Re:Like a magic act by JohnFen · · Score: 1

    The administration is doing what's right legally

    I disagree. The right thing legally is to recognize the actual fact of the matter: an ISP is communications carrier, not a content creator.

    The FCC is doing everything it can to distract from this simple fact. It's a gigantic lie, intended to benefit major corporations at the expense of us all.

  25. If you want NN back by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    You're going to have to show up at the polls. And that includes your primary. Until there's a party in charge that supports it it's dead.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  26. The FCC Does Understand It by perry64 · · Score: 2

    "It is important to understand that the FCC's proposed order is based on a flawed and factually inaccurate understanding of Internet technology,"

    This is very incorrect. The FCC understands that, without net neutrality, internet technology will lock in far more profits for Comcast and their allies. That's the only thing that they care about.

    All their verbiage that people are decrying as incorrect is nothing more than FUD to justify a decision that has nothing to do with technology, or what's best for the majority of people, or anything else besides increasing and, more to the point, ensuring profits for the big guys for years to come.

  27. Re:Like a magic act by omnichad · · Score: 1

    Did you ignore all the people that corrected you the last time you posted this drivel?

    The court challenge resulted in reclassifying the internet as Title II - which actually put the internet under FCC jurisdiction. So sure, they said the FCC didn't have the authority, but then they gave it to them.

  28. Tim Berners-Lee favored fast lanes by George_Ou · · Score: 1

    Tim Berners-Lee favored fast lanes which makes him support Pai's position on Net Neutrality. I quoted him 10 years ago here http://www.zdnet.com/article/a.... He said "Net Neutrality is NOT saying that one shouldn’t pay more money for high quality of service. We always have, and we always will."

    1. Re:Tim Berners-Lee favored fast lanes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sounds to me like he says, you should be able to pay for higher bandwidth.
      He doesn't say: You should have to pay extra to get access to specific information based on the payment scheme your internet provider decided for you.
      High quality of service: low ping times, high bandwidth

  29. Conclusion doesn't follow premise by kd3bj · · Score: 1

    He conclusively proves that the FCC doesn't understand the Internet; then he concludes, therefore, the FCC should be the ones to regulate it. I'm not sure I follow that.

  30. Unfortunately For Tim and Steve.. by Neuronwelder · · Score: 1

    " You can't fix stupid " Ron White - Comedian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

  31. Re:conflict$ of intere$t on all side$ by Trogre · · Score: 1

    Can someone decipher this?

    Is AC saying that Cerf was opposed to home servers, a position that no sane person with any technological inclination would take?

    --
    "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
  32. Re:don't listen to this idiot by VanessaE · · Score: 1

    Don't listen to this AC either - in some jurisdictions, unusual ballots ("absentee", "provisional", or some other paper ballot in lieu of electronic voting, whether mailed-in or not) are NOT counted until all votes cast by "normal" means have all been processed after the polls close, and only if the estimated total number of issued, unusual ballots is still enough to affect who wins.

    In other words, if there were a million unusual ballots issued, but there's more than a million normal votes separating the winner from the losers, the unusual ballots are ignored. The notion sucks, but I suppose it's done to avoid wasted effort (== wasted tax dollars).

    Get your ass to the polls. Vote by whatever method is considered "usual", and if it's electronic, just suck it up, use the stupid machine, and double-check that the little printed receipt matches who you voted for.

  33. Other "father of the internet" is against NN by syril · · Score: 1

    Bob Kahn, co-designer of TCP/IP (with Vint obviously) has been against net neutrality for many years.

  34. Re:TBL is NOT the "father of the Internet" by arth1 · · Score: 1

    It certainly are.