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Apple To Transfer Chinese iCloud Operations To Chinese Firm (bbc.com)

Apple's iCloud services in mainland China will be operated by a Chinese company from next month, the tech giant has confirmed, though Apple will still have access to all data stored on iCloud. The company said it had made the move to comply with the country's cloud computing regulations. iCloud accounts registered outside of China are not affected. BBC reports: The Chinese cyber security rules, introduced in July last year, include a requirement for companies to store all data within China. The firm, Guizhou on the Cloud Big Data (GCBD), is owned by the Guizhou provincial government in southern China. Guizhou is where Apple opened a $1 billion data center last year to meet the regulations. iCloud data will be transferred from February 28, Apple said. Customers living in mainland China who did not want to use iCloud operated by GCBD were given the option to terminate their account. Apple said the "partnership" with GCBD would allow it to "improve the speed and reliability of our iCloud services products while also complying with newly passed regulations that cloud services be operated by Chinese companies." It added that Apple had "strong data privacy and security protections in place and no backdoors will be created into any of our systems." However, some on social media have said the step gives Beijing more opportunity to monitor its citizens and others living in the country.

72 comments

  1. First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Okay, so really, how does forcible transfer of assets constitute a free market?

    1. Re: First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who said China was a free market?

    2. Re:First by zlives · · Score: 5, Insightful

      China is not a free market...

    3. Re:First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There is no "free" market... that's a BS construct sales pitch, it doesn't exist. Everyone regulates trade. Everyone.

    4. Re:First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No one is forcing Apple to do anything. They can just close their services to China if they don't want to follow the regulations, same as every one else. Just ask Google.
      How about the EU? And all the other countries that do similar things?

      Companies must follow the laws of the countries they operate in film at 11.

    5. Re:First by jblues · · Score: 1

      This is undoubtably for 'security', not that it is a free market.

      --
      If it acquires resources on instantiation like a duck, then its a shared_ptr<Duck>
    6. Re:First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What forcible transfer? Apple voluntarily are doing this to stay in the market, these laws are very similar to what is coming in or already exists in many other countries too.

    7. Re:First by kenwd0elq · · Score: 1

      Apple is "voluntarily" doing this because the only other option is the complete loss of Chinese access - and probably all Chinese assets including manufacturing and intellectual property. How long could Apple survive if the PLA starts selling "knockoff" Apple phones and computers that are built in previously-Apple-controlled factories by previously-Apple-controlled technicians? After nationalizing all the Foxconn facilities?

      Tim Cook controls NOTHING that isn't in China's pocket.

    8. Re:First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly!!! apple is choosing to sell out.

    9. Re:First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think anybody in the USA stops you from selling your xyz widget to someone else.

    10. Re: First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try selling a gun and see what happens.

    11. Re:First by lkcl · · Score: 1

      China is not a free market...

      dude, where have _you_ been whilst the unethical pump-and-dump and blatant insider trading has been manipulating crypto-currencies world-wide? :)

    12. Re:First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There already are Apple knock offs. China has knock off everything.

      You've never been to China so you should shut your mouth.

    13. Re:First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Starting a business is MUCH easier and quicker in China as they go by the 'don't cause trouble' rule of business. Do whatever you want, but don't make trouble.

      Ever try to start a business in the US?

      Everyone raves about the Chinese street vendors selling food and goods. Some of these markets are famous. Try that in the US and see how far you can get.

      China IS a shitshow, but starting a business is nowhere near the hassle like in the US.

    14. Re:First by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Microsoft does this with Azure. Their EU operation is run by a separate company, so they cannot be compelled to hand over data to US law enforcement because they have a complete separation and no one in Microsoft has access to the data in the first place (at least, in theory). I believe the other big cloud providers have similar things, because otherwise they can't sell hosting to any company that needs to comply with the GDPR (i.e. anyone in the EU).

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    15. Re:First by sabbede · · Score: 1

      No other country imposes this kind of rule. China won't let data be stored outside its borders, fine. But it won't let a foreign company own and operate a data center within its borders, so Apple now has to pay the Chinese government to use servers in a datacenter owned by the government. So, since the government own the servers on which any Apple user's data would be stored, it has access to the user data and Apple's data. IP ripe for harvesting.

    16. Re:First by sabbede · · Score: 1

      Did an EU government tell MS that they couldn't build their own datacenter, they had to use one owned by the government?

    17. Re:First by sabbede · · Score: 1

      No it isn't! No government tells a company they can't run their own datacenter or require them to use one owned by that government.

    18. Re:First by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Nope, they simply told Microsoft that no company could legally do business with Microsoft if they operated their own datacenter.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    19. Re:First by pedz · · Score: 1

      Just in California :-) (sarcasm in case you didn't recognize it)

    20. Re:First by sabbede · · Score: 1

      Who did?

    21. Re: First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Regarding Apple or Microsoft. What about our American data that crosses national borders and ends up somewhere like China? Is our data safe from those governments?

    22. Re:First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you honestly believe that YOU have a 'free' market? Bahahahaha.

    23. Re:First by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      The EU, by passing the GDPR.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    24. Re:First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So don't store your data in China. Or if you feel you must, use encryption.
      If Apple doesn't want to provide services to the biggest online customer base in the world it's free to take its ball and go home.

    25. Re: First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      works just fine

    26. Re: First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's actually pretty easy for someone to sell or buy guns legally in the US. Of course it is just as easy to sell and buy guns illegally. The US could enact the most restrictive gun laws in the world and it would not make a difference in the number of guns available to the public. The proverbial horse has already left the barn. Any new or meaningful restrictions would entail law enforcement collecting guns from the public. If the government tried to collect the guns from those who are not criminals all that will accomplish is make every gun owner a criminal. And there is also that pesky 2nd Amendment which a lot of people would use as a rallying cry to fight the government. The 2nd Amendment was created to provide the citizens with the right to form a well regulated militia to fight the government. The government would effectively creating the conflict the 2nd Amendment covers.

    27. Re: First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And..not true. MS need to comply with regulation (GDPR) both as a controller and processor. The same goes for e.g sub processors.

  2. This worked so well for Microsoft /s by greenwow · · Score: 2

    But seriously, Mindtree that handles support for Microsoft is just a disaster. We opened several tickets in July when we first started moving to Azure, and not a single one of them has been resolved.

    1. Re:This worked so well for Microsoft /s by zlives · · Score: 1

      but... but... cloud

    2. Re:This worked so well for Microsoft /s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We've been dealing with Azure via Mindtree for a pretty large billing issue for over six months. Employees of Mindtree keep answering, but they don't have access to see what services we're using so they can't answer our questions, and they don't have the ability to escalate issues. The last reply I received from them was from a guy named Keshav Kumar Bansal that said:

      "We will now begin working together to resolve your query."

      Begin to after over six months? Amazon support is nonexistent unless you pay extra, but at least they can answer billing questions quickly over the past 11 years I've used them.

    3. Re:This worked so well for Microsoft /s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      We keep losing disks on Azure, but keep still being billed for them. That's annoying, but of course having servers crash and having to set them up again from scratch is a bigger problem. The highest level person we've talked to at Mindtree is Sonal Kathel, but even he doesn't even have permission to look at vms or disks so he can't help. Microsoft is providing the worst of both worlds. Support that isn't trained, can't escalate, and can't even view info about what they're supposed to support.

    4. Re: This worked so well for Microsoft /s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But hey - it allowed MS to fire a ton of Americans. So it must be a good thing, right? Hillary in 2020!

  3. Firewall by sphealey · · Score: 2

    The other half of the walnut is: what protections is Apple putting in place to ensure that once the PRC's intelligence agencies have penetrated the data center and systems located in the PRC (because they will) that this foot in the door will not give them leverage to penetrate the rest of the system located in the US and EU?

    1. Re:Firewall by zlives · · Score: 3, Funny

      i think apple has an intel based CPU with IME to protect us from that.

    2. Re:Firewall by AHuxley · · Score: 2

      The same protections and skill used to keep the NSA out?
      PRISM (surveillance program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    3. Re:Firewall by Avidiax · · Score: 2

      The solution that I have seen in a couple of companies now is this:

      The Chinese DC's are isolated. All network traffic from the Chinese DC to the other DCs are whitelisted (from the non-China DC), with a long process involved to get anything added to the whitelist. Typically, only backup, migration, and monitoring are allowed. No keying material valid in a non-China-DC is allowed in the Chinese DCs. This means that any migrations will involve reencryption with new keys. Automated and manual audits of inter-DC traffic are performed.

    4. Re:Firewall by AHuxley · · Score: 2

      The national internet is a China wide intranet.
      Want to invest and build a brand in China? Laws are clear about how encryption will be used, the needs of law enforcement.
      All international networks in and out are tracked back to see if they are a VPN thats new, unknown to the gov and mil in China.
      Some VPN's will work in China at full speed and without question. Why? The government gets to se all its own citizens who are trying to use the service.
      For that agreement foreigners get to feel like the VPN is winning with a fast VPN that got past the gov due to skills..
      The same for other brands. Help the communist party and all is good.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    5. Re:Firewall by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i think apple has an intel based CPU with IME to protect us from that.

      I understand that you're being fascetious, but on the serious side of things, Apple is putting in custom silicon to lock things down at a hardware level with its T2 chip:

      * https://www.macworld.com/article/3245764/macs/the-t2-chip-makes-the-imac-pro-the-start-of-a-mac-revolution.html

      That won't help with generic servers that runs their cloud infrastructure, but I think it's a general sign that they're serious about privacy and security (where the law allows).

    6. Re:Firewall by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The same protections and skill used to keep the NSA out?

      PRISM (surveillance program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Companies "participated" by having their glass tapped so that comms between data centres were being monitored.

      Google for one started encrypting their inter-DC links, and even do a lot of intra-DC crypto as well. I wouldn't be surprised if others (including Apple) did as well.

    7. Re:Firewall by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      AC did you forget how some big US brands helped?
      "... handed the NSA access to encrypted messages" (12 Jul ‘13)
      https://www.theguardian.com/wo...
      "pre-encryption stage access to email"
      "had tripled the amount of Skype video calls being collected"
      "routinely shared with the FBI and CIA, with one NSA document describing the program as a "team sport"."
      "helped the NSA to circumvent its encryption"

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  4. When will the West learn by AHuxley · · Score: 0

    China will not accept your freedoms.
    Your brand accepts the laws under the Communist party in China.

    What did the West think it would be like? All Tiananmen Square like with a digital democratic civil society forming around the US brand?
    Communist governments do not allow freedom in. Communism controls brands so Communism has no competitors that can spread democracy and freedom.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    1. Re:When will the West learn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh gee, they'll learn at about the same time they learned that islam is not a religion of peace.

    2. Re: When will the West learn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. That was LITERALLY how Trade with China was sold to the west. We get cheap shit & they get democracy..

      hah. #freedumbs indeed

    3. Re: When will the West learn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Show me any religion that is.

      Fuck your jeebus.

    4. Re:When will the West learn by gravewax · · Score: 1

      religion of peace is an oxymoron.

  5. Don't Trust the Chinaman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    As the wise man said, only a fool trusts the man from china. Are you a foo!

  6. china is spoilt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh, so china's good enough for a data center, but fuck australia.

    People here go to the App store or any of apple's cloud services to get one thing done, and then they leave, Apple loses out on incidental sales.

    they're idiots.

  7. Clear Signal by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    "We're not going to implement the Chicomms' demands".

    But they'll work with a partner who will. Probably keeps their nose clean while complying with regs, and side-stepping the issue for shareholders.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  8. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  9. "No backdoors in our systems" by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

    They felt no need to state the very obvious implication - "of course, in a month they will no longer be *our* systems".

    --
    #DeleteChrome
  10. So? by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

    ... gives Beijing more opportunity to monitor its citizens and others living in the country.

    OK with me.

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  11. Who's More Evil At This Point? by kenwd0elq · · Score: 5, Interesting

    All the big tech companies seem to be in a giant rush to knuckle under to totalitarian regimes, and I'm not sure who's worse at this point. Google, whose motto seems to be "Sure, Be Evil!" or Apple, who is about to turn over all the records for every Chinese Apple customer to the Chinese Government?

    1. Re:Who's More Evil At This Point? by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 2

      This question is one I've genuinely struggled with... should private companies refuse to do business with totalitarian regimes like China? I used to think "yes", but how well did that really work out for us with Cuba? Refusing to engage in commerce doesn't seem to meaningfully affect regime change any more than bombing cities won WWII (at least by itself) - it mostly just makes people even more miserable.

      In the case of Apple, it's not like refusing to allow iCloud services to Chinese citizens will somehow make them immune from government surveillance. After all, you *already* are required to have a government-snooping app installed right on your phone. It's apparently the law in China that a Chinese-owned firm is required to operate any sort of service there. It would be more newsworthy if this was NOT happening.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    2. Re:Who's More Evil At This Point? by iamacat · · Score: 1

      Absolutely not. A billion of people in China can make their government accountable if they choose to. In the meantime, we are struggling to make our own government accountable (hi Snowden). Telling everyone on the planet how to live should not be on the top of our priority list.

    3. Re: Who's More Evil At This Point? by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      Silicon Valley capitalists sure do love oppressive totalitarian regimes.

    4. Re:Who's More Evil At This Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google: Be evil.

      Apple: Take money from evil.

    5. Re:Who's More Evil At This Point? by lkcl · · Score: 1

      All the big tech companies seem to be in a giant rush to knuckle under to totalitarian regimes,

      oh, are you referring to the USA?

      and I'm not sure who's worse at this point. Google, whose motto seems to be "Sure, Be Evil!" or Apple, who is about to turn over all the records for every Chinese Apple customer to the Chinese Government?

      .... and out of the prying eyes of the NSA and the CIA... or had you not noticed the reports here on slashdot about mass-surveillance of U.S. Citizens?

    6. Re:Who's More Evil At This Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Telling everyone on the planet how to live should not be on the top of our priority list"
      this sounds good until things like overseas toxic waste dumps, overseas child labour and blindness to lead wielding regimes for profit happen.
      the profit ..uhm ..err... profits you in 'murica but was generated thanks to above.
      home country = everything rosy and the "compost" stays overseas.
      you got what you came for AND you didn't meddle. perfect!

    7. Re:Who's More Evil At This Point? by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      All the big tech companies seem to be in a giant rush to knuckle under to totalitarian regimes, and I'm not sure who's worse at this point. Google, whose motto seems to be "Sure, Be Evil!" or Apple, who is about to turn over all the records for every Chinese Apple customer to the Chinese Government?

      Huh. I was modded to oblivion here just the other day for saying that China is an evil totalitarian regime.

      It was a different context though. It was about China censoring unapproved points of view. I was pointing out that that is just what evil totalitarian regimes do.

    8. Re:Who's More Evil At This Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      After all, you *already* are required to have a government-snooping app installed right on your phone. It's apparently the law in China that a Chinese-owned firm is required to operate any sort of service there.

      What a load of bollocks. Got even the flimsiest bit of evidence to go with you complete bullshit?

    9. Re:Who's More Evil At This Point? by l20502 · · Score: 1

      Apple has been losing chinese market share to chinese manufacturers focusing on quality.

    10. Re:Who's More Evil At This Point? by iamacat · · Score: 1

      We have onshore toxic waste dumps, domestic child labor and policemen mowing down law abiding citizens. Maybe if we clean up our own shop, we can lead by example without being heavyhanded?

  12. bite me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Taking it up the arse seems to be apple's new policy. Go, Tim, go.

  13. Tim Cook is weak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A move like this shows heâ(TM)s a slave to revenue. He should take a principled stand like Larry Page did.

  14. Why not move manufacturing? by ITRambo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Apple is being pushed around by the Chinese government. They really need to begin building automated plants in the US. China can suck it. The fall of the Western world started when we gave China the know-how and resources to build our cheap stuff more cheaply. Then they moved on t to better stuff. Now they're controlling the whole system. Apple will eventually lose much of their company if they stay in China. Get out now. Apple: you can survive on Western profits, you sellouts.

    1. Re:Why not move manufacturing? by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      Apple is being pushed around by the Chinese government. They really need to begin building automated plants in the US. China can suck it. The fall of the Western world started when we gave China the know-how and resources to build our cheap stuff more cheaply. Then they moved on t to better stuff. Now they're controlling the whole system. Apple will eventually lose much of their company if they stay in China. Get out now. Apple: you can survive on Western profits, you sellouts.

      Why not? Because then their profit margin on their $1000+ phones would only be 99.5% instead of 99.9%.

  15. You're not running them anymore, Apple. by SeaFox · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It added that Apple had "strong data privacy and security protections in place and no backdoors will be created into any of our systems."

    That doesn't mean a whole lot when the Chinese company is the one running the physical machines, Apple. Or are you saying there's no way a MTTM attack can be introduced?

    1. Re:You're not running them anymore, Apple. by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      Or are you saying there's no way a MTTM attack can be introduced?

      Whoops. Obviously I meant MITM there.

    2. Re:You're not running them anymore, Apple. by sabbede · · Score: 1

      Nothing to worry about, this Chinese "company" is a government owned entity, so you know you can trust it.

  16. on the other hand... by lkcl · · Score: 1

    "However, some on social media have said the step gives Beijing more opportunity to monitor its citizens and others living in the country. "

    However, privately, the NSA and the CIA expressed their disappointment at losing access to critical opportunities to monitor the citizens and others living in the country.

    1. Re:on the other hand... by sabbede · · Score: 1
      Which is a bad thing. The NSA and CIA are foreign intelligence agencies, spying on other countries is their job. Spying on Americans is what they aren't allowed to do, spying on the Chinese is what they're for.

      The biggest problem here isn't even about government spying, it's that China won't let Apple do business without handing control to the Chinese government.