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Apple Could Use ARM Coprocessors for Three Updated Mac Models (techcrunch.com)
According to a Bloomberg report, Apple could be working on three new Mac models for this year. From a report: All three of them could feature an ARM coprocessor to improve security. Apple isn't switching to ARM chipsets altogether. There will still be an Intel CPU in every Mac, but with a second ARM processor. Currently, the MacBook Pro features a T1 chip while the iMac Pro features a T2 chip. On the MacBook Pro, the ARM coprocessor handles the Touch ID sensor and the Touch Bar. This way, your fingerprint is never stored on your laptop's SSD drive -- it remains on the T1 secure enclave. The Intel CPU only gets a positive response when a fingerprint is validated. The iMac Pro goes one step further and uses the T2 to replace many discrete controllers. The T2 controls your stereo speakers, your internal microphone, the fans, the camera and internal storage.
I wonder how long it will be before the security enclave is hacked (if it hasn't been already). Nice PR, though.
What, didnt notice that even the mighty Fruit could not get Intel do deactivate the ARM core in the chipset, a.k.a Intel ME?
At first glance this appears to be a whole new way to attack the machine...
Only a matter of time before the Intel chips disappear completely.
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
They are already getting rid of 32 bit support, soon they will fully iOSify MacOS from OS X to OS i. With an ARMed walled garden. The $5000 iMac Pro is the swan song for Intel Macs. MacOS 10.14 will be full Facebook machines
Of course none of that info is secure any longer due to spectre and meltdown on the Intel side. Everyone is going to need to replace their CPU's. There's going to be a huge class action lawsuit (or several of them.)
so storage will be cut down to 1 pci-e x4 bus mixed with co-processor traffic. nice way to cut the power of the new mac pro (at least it has the lanes to not stuff it on the DMI bus that also has network and all other io on it)
For the ones with less pci-e they should do pci-e like this.
X16 cpu to switch and switch X8 video card X4 TB (one bus) X4 (storage + co cpu)
and DMI for all other IO.
mac pro at least 1 open pci-e X16 + video card X16 + at least 2 TB buses. and maybe X4 storage 2 (non boot) and (X4 boot + co cpu) = 48 pci-e other IO on DMI or swap storage 2 for X4 10G network and put storage 2 on DMI.
If AMD EPYC then to go 3 X16 slots one filled with video card + 2-4 TB buses + 10 GIG-e duel port + x4 co cpu + 3X4 M.2 slots + other IO.
PC manufacturers have been using these for a long time. They started out as 8-bit MCUs with a builtin ROM and have been getting more and more powerful with time.
So what, Apple is going to use a small ARM CPU to control some functions to free up resources for main CPU. Makes sense right? Not a lot different then how GPU's have progressed in similar fashion to move CPU tasks to the GPU. It almost seems like these story sort of want you to believe Apple is moving their Mac's to ARM CPU's as main processor and that's not even close to what is happening.
Remember the NuBus DOS card you could get to run DOS at 'native' speeds?
That said, I welcome it and other similar endeavors. I wish I could buy a more 'modular' desktop for exploratory development. For my work I'd rather have a boatload of ARM cores or FPGA devices on a x16 PCI link than a video card.
What a load of bull droppings. Not all Mac users use Faecebook or any other antisocial media for that matter.
I've never even seen a FB screen or app and don't want to.
They will; but it will cost an ARM and a leg.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
Apple could kill Meltdown and still have perfect Intel compatibility by just using AMD. I am not necessarily saying they should not have the ARM coprocessor, just that using AMD instead of Intel would increase security drastically. Also because AMD doesn't have the management Engine. They have something equivalent, but that doesn't have a full IP stack and other "niceties" like that.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Loool he doesnt have a tech job, have you not seen the nonsense this guy posts? He isnt even out of basement yet
...then Apple would have to include an industrial grade air conditioner to prevent 3rd degree burns due to the copious heat emitted from the CPU.
I highly suspect that this change will render hardware compatibility with off the shelf components a thing of the past for Apple (again).
This means no more Hackintosh should a future OSX require this chip be in place.
No, no, no. He's been bragging for months that he's the best I.T. closet cleaner in Silicon Valley.
(slow clap)
"Oh good, my slowclap processor made it into this thing." - GLaDOS
#DeleteFacebook
Maybe they will fix the myriad root exploits at some point too. That would be nice!
Typical bullshit Apple Hater comment.
Some drive-by hate-filled-bullshit, with zero substantiation.
Of course none of that info is secure any longer due to spectre and meltdown on the Intel side. Everyone is going to need to replace their CPU's. There's going to be a huge class action lawsuit (or several of them.)
Apple released their OWN Spectre and Meltdown patches for the past 3 macOS versions. I haven't heard that their versions of the patches have the same issues as the Intel ones that everyone is rushing to un-install...
I think the idea of having several cpu (whether intel or ARM) is very neat. I guess it'll add complexity to the development, but...
1) Do they work autonomously (ie, does the main processor intervene somehow in the coprocessors)? Because this could make the coprocessors hackable AND with the total inability to be fixed by a system update. Am I right? say the one controlling Touch ID is exploited to send your fingerprints to whoever (kind of like having several intel MEs) . How do you fix it?
2) If the main processor only requires an OK signal from these coprocessors... can it be tricked? can it be made to "believe" a fingerprint is right when nobody actually touch the touch ID?
What a load of bull droppings. Not all Mac users use Faecebook or any other antisocial media for that matter.
I've never even seen a FB screen or app and don't want to.
I have absolutely ZERO social media accounts.
Interesting way to make hackintosh machines more difficult to build, but an arm core can be emulated with qemu.
Nice try.
macOS will still have to install on the dozens of Mac models WITHOUT an ARM coprocessor; so, for the next foreseeable while, that paranoid fantasy will remain just that.
No it will probably create new ones.
TonyMac will steal code from legitimate developers and make it possible.
very, very good. Intel, welcome to your death knell lol...
Isn't Slashdot social media?
So how exactly is this different from the SMC (System Management Controller for those that don't know)? AFAIK the SMC already does these tasks.
Sounds like they're just replacing whatever the SMC used to be (I'm assuming an FPGA of some sort) to an ARM CPU?
So a fingerprint or other auth is stored externally, then tells an Intel chip, yeah, go ahead and boot.
In possession of that machine, we just fake the auth to the Intel chip and move on from there.
There is no Apple hate here; Apple *thinks* they're smarter than the rest of the world, but have become vastly insular, and a cult unto themselves.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Even more Apple lock-in to their hardware. If they had a brain, they'd not waste so much time on lock-in chips and put more time into making their hardware worth buying. They keep undermining the reason to stay using them as everybody else surpasses "good enough" to being about equal.
I know it would be impossible... but apple could turn their pro laptop into something configurable more than other laptops. Sure they could require use of the store... but being able to bolt on a thicker battery, replace the battery, SSD, RAM... are not different than the others-- but if those tiny boards used to connect the ports on the side of the computer had some more space internally with a nice strong faceplace attached... users could swap out either the left or right side boards/ports on the laptop. at a premium price at the apple store. None of what I'm suggesting would add much in size to the laptop; furthermore, the next gen batteries would more than make up for space lost. I can't understand why they don't just sell a bolt-on bottom plate with more battery power... so many actual pros prefer battery for weight... not that we are talking much at all-- laptop protection covers probably add as much.
Ironically, making apple laptops the most configurable while still being proprietary (it is a hardware company after all)
Typical fanboy who willingly lives in the Reality Distortion Field.
On first glance I immediately dismissed the "security" bit in the preview as click-bait... The interesting idea, at least to me, is the idea of having low power ARM acting like a hybrid south-bridge that functions as CPU for simple web browsing or media playback [I think these may already exist in some forms]. Unfortunately while there is a brief mention of the ARM chip handling sound there was not much other detail. I would guess the difficulty is in how to seamlessly transfer data and processing to the Intel CPU when needed.... so had hoped that's what this would be about. I suppose I read way too much into "coprocessor" in the title... but forming strong opinions on as little information as possible is what Slashdot is about after-all :-)
Every PC has dozens of microprocessors, so adding an ARM chip into a computer is no big paradigm shift. A typical PC has a SATA controller, USB controller, video card, etc. One of the big things that Intel has been good at over the years is integrated more features onto a single die. Around 2000 is when they started adding wireless directly onto the die ("Centrino") followed by integrated video. I forget when the memory controller got integrated.
Maybe they will fix the myriad root exploits at some point too. That would be nice!
When the company gets word of a root exploit, it gets patched quickly. If you know about 10,000 of them, Apple would be really interested.
The auth works with encrypted security tokens. The app establishes a security key with Touch ID. Touch ID then countersigns that token back to show that it has been authenticated. You can't just fake the auth without access to key material and algorithms.
Watch for a forthcoming OS that will run macOS apps and iOS apps simultaneously, with a touchscreen for at least the laptop models. At first such a machine will primarily for developers, replacing the iOS simulator that is now part of Xcode, but we may then see the long-awaited convergence of laptops and tablets.
EZ PZ. Monitor the transaction with a logic analyzer. Cough the stream to your favorite GPU board, or perhaps an ASIC or FPGA that knows the algorithm. Somewhere, the security key is stored. Hammer that as an alternative. Voila: unlock.
Or just find where the state is termed valid somewhere downstream of this logic path and flip (or pound) a few bits.
The sheer sanctimoniousness of inter-process systems designers galls the shit out of me. With a clever enough hammer, you can break anything, and Apple is and has never been an exception to this.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Because that is beyond their technological prowess.
I agree, and I believe that most people will be ok with using qemu to emulate the chips they are missing for, let's face it, not the most necessary functions of their computer.
An x86-64 hackintosh can spare a few CPU cycles to pretend an arm chip is there. The software is free. You can emulate an arm CPU as easy as any other.
Personally, I never asked my computer and cell phone to be the same. I am very comfortable with them being different tools for different jobs. I am fine with them being optomized differently so that they can do their job in as an effective way possible.
I think of all the non-sense that has hit Mac Os in recent years, in an effort to make it more IOS like. I do not like how they removed management controls away from iTunes. I LIKED having more robust photo options. Almost everything they have added in to merge the two operating systems has made my MacBook pro's interface worse.
To me, it is culmination of the split between Jobs and Cook. Jobs wanted to make technology insanely great. Cook wants to make it insanely the same.
"Liberalism is a very noble idea, currently controlled by some very bad people. Be sure you do not get the two confused.
Reasonably intelligent person: Hey, this fingerprint stuff is sensitive. Let's isolate it in separate hardware!
Non-stupid detail person: ... and since it's specialized hardware and has information we want to control let's lock it down and have it only run code we've signed!
Well-meaning idiot: ... and since it only runs our code, let's make it More Secure by having zero transparency!
Fucking worthless moron: ... and since it's More Secure, let's put it in control of more stuff! And add more software! And funnel everything through it! Let's have it run the keyboard! And the camera! And the disk!
(Intel): ... and let's give it direct network access, too!
Hacker: Pwnt!
This pattern happens over and over again at company after company. People build these "secure" enclaves to isolate things, and then as soon as they have them they blow that isolation by shoveling in every damned thing they can think of so everything can be "more secure". And since it's in charge of everything, it has to have control of everything. And then it gets cracked.
THAT'S NOT HOW IT'S SUPPOSED TO FUCKING WORK!. If you have a sensitive function, you put it in its OWN FUCKING COMPARTMENT. And you give it no more privilege than it needs to do that one thing. You don't dump in a shit-ton of unrelated software into a coprocessor that's trusted for everything (and, by the way, is usually pretty much invisible to the OS).
Morons.
I'm not an apple fanboy, quite the opposite, but if you will make such a statement, please back it up with sources.
But they can just abandon the intel-only macOS tomorrow after they pushed the CPU speed downgrade as final upgrade.
Suuuuure. But what would you need a Hackintosh for then anyway?
So a fingerprint or other auth is stored externally, then tells an Intel chip, yeah, go ahead and boot.
In possession of that machine, we just fake the auth to the Intel chip and move on from there.
There is no Apple hate here; Apple *thinks* they're smarter than the rest of the world, but have become vastly insular, and a cult unto themselves.
In practice, Apple's "Go/NoGo" is a LOT more complicated than a simple Logic-Level. That's why you can't swap-out the Fingerprint sensor in an iPhone/iPad. It has a unique cryptographic pairing with the SoC. I'm not sure how that's handled with the Intel CPU in the MacBook Pro; but I am sure Apple has more than just "Pull this pin low for an "Unlock" Signal".
And yes, Apple IS smarter than the rest of the world (or at least as smart as the top people in this field); at least in this regard.
Ask the FBI. BTW, the phone they (had someone else) crack was FAR less secure than later models.
EZ PZ. Monitor the transaction with a logic analyzer. Cough the stream to your favorite GPU board, or perhaps an ASIC or FPGA that knows the algorithm. Somewhere, the security key is stored. Hammer that as an alternative. Voila: unlock.
Or just find where the state is termed valid somewhere downstream of this logic path and flip (or pound) a few bits.
The sheer sanctimoniousness of inter-process systems designers galls the shit out of me. With a clever enough hammer, you can break anything, and Apple is and has never been an exception to this.
Then why is the FBI ranting and raving?
They sure as HELL don't have to do so for Android phones!
And the "Knows the Algorithm" part isn't necessarily so "EZPZ" when BOTH ends are non-discoverable, like in an iPhone. It might be possible in a Mac, unless Apple has convinced them to put some custom hardware in their CPUs (which they very may well have).
With a clever enough bolt, you really do need the proper tool to remove it.
I'm not saying it's impossible; but Apple has a VERY good track-record in this regard.
In possession of that machine, we just fake the auth to the Intel chip and move on from there.
I doubt if the "auth" is something as simple as a voltage change on a pin. You have no reason to believe that it is easy, or even possible, to "fake the auth".
EZ PZ. Monitor the transaction with a logic analyzer.
This will only work if Apple's protocol is designed to total morons supervised by other total morons.
You can't just play back a bitstream to defeat encryption, because every transaction uses different "salt" and timestamp.
... an ASIC or FPGA that knows the algorithm.
Many of the most robust cryptography is based on published algorithms. "Knowing the algorithm" is obviously not enough. You also need time, like quadrillions of times the life of the universe. Good luck.
He lies a lot for apple.
I have absolutely ZERO social media accounts. /.
You are mistaken. You have an account on
And I would not wonder if there is one or two more Wiki/Forum/Discussion sites where you have an account. An old delicious account perhaps, or on reddit?
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
...Then why is the FBI ranting and raving?...
It has nothing to do with whether or not they can gain access tithe device. It has everything to do with conditioning the public to accept less secure devices, because, terrorism...children.
LMAO.. fuck the FBI. Let's see what the NSA, Mossad, and GCHQ are doing with it.
And no, the FBI and the NSA do not play nice with one another.
I have absolutely ZERO social media accounts. /.
You are mistaken. You have an account on
And I would not wonder if there is one or two more Wiki/Forum/Discussion sites where you have an account. An old delicious account perhaps, or on reddit?
If you consider tech forums "Social media" (more like anti-social media around here!), then I have a VERY few of those (but no Delicious or Reddit); but I consider "Social Media" the usual subjects: Twitter, Facebook, Snapchat, etc, which are not "Tech-focused". I don't even know very many, because I just don't give a shit about that stuff.
I only put up with Slashdot because it's like beating oneself over the head. It feels so good when you stop!
Only in somebody's dreams.
After Intel ME flaws, Apple ME flaws?
Nobody has to replace their CPUs, but you will have to live with less processing power than Intel led you to believe you had. Well, you did have it, but it wasn’t safe. So you can choose: fast or safe. Hey, look: a car analogy!
They'll ditch compatibility when convenient, regardless of what the community has to say. Never forget that Apple is the king of planned obsolescence.
What could go wrong, right?
Interesting way to make hackintosh machines more difficult to build, but an arm core can be emulated with qemu.
Nice try.
macOS will still have to install on the dozens of Mac models WITHOUT an ARM coprocessor; so, for the next foreseeable while, that paranoid fantasy will remain just that.
Are Hackintoshes even still a thing?
Honestly, that's the first time I've heard that term in what must have been 5 or 6 years... I don't think many have bothered on a serious level because Windows 7 was good enough and Apple made it too hard. I imagine the only people doing it now are doing it just for the LoLs.
However welcome to the beginning of the end. The Mac User is now just an Ipad user with a bigger bill, its only a matter of time before the Intel processor is dropped and MacOS and IOS become one. No-one does serious work on a Mac, despite your forthcoming protestations.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
you can.. but that auth wont decode any of the stored data. duh.
it doesnt have to.. just the key. or hack the driver that looks for the chip.
its a hackintosh anyways. its not supposed to run now'even.
They'll ditch compatibility when convenient, regardless of what the community has to say. Never forget that Apple is the king of planned obsolescence.
They've been "looking the other way" regarding the Hackintosh community since OS X debuted nearly TWENTY years ago.
I really don't think they are using the ARM coprocessors to do that, overtly; but if macOS starts DEPENDING on their presence...
Interesting way to make hackintosh machines more difficult to build, but an arm core can be emulated with qemu.
Nice try.
macOS will still have to install on the dozens of Mac models WITHOUT an ARM coprocessor; so, for the next foreseeable while, that paranoid fantasy will remain just that.
Are Hackintoshes even still a thing?
Honestly, that's the first time I've heard that term in what must have been 5 or 6 years... I don't think many have bothered on a serious level because Windows 7 was good enough and Apple made it too hard. I imagine the only people doing it now are doing it just for the LoLs.
However welcome to the beginning of the end. The Mac User is now just an Ipad user with a bigger bill, its only a matter of time before the Intel processor is dropped and MacOS and IOS become one. No-one does serious work on a Mac, despite your forthcoming protestations.
Hackintoshes are most CERTAINLY still "a thing", especially with the long-time since the Mac Pro refresh, and the fact that some have been pining for the "return of the tower" since the Cylindrical Mac Pro came out in 2013. Plus, some people are just "cheap"...
Apple will not be dropping Intel (buy they may switch to AMD, if they can get their power consumption down to a reasonable level); because they know they sell a LOT of MacBook Pros (and some iMacs) to people running primarily Windows or Linux, and those aren't switching to primarily ARM any time soon. There is just TOO MUCH software out there that is still x86, and Apple is WELL AWARE of that!
As far as "no one does serious work on a Mac", you're simply full of shit. Period.
Well, look at it this way: /. password, too, or not?
American immigration officers ask you for your social media account passwords.
Would they want your
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Well, look at it this way: /. password, too, or not?
American immigration officers ask you for your social media account passwords.
Would they want your
I honestly don't think so.
It's for interacting with 40-year-old virgins on another continent, so it's one of the safer ones.
And here we go, an ARM zealot (or at least an Intel hater).
Let me guess, you have been cheerleading for ARM servers for what, a dozen years now? How's that going?
Your need to inflate your ego construct with the actions of others says a lot about you. Maybe you should consider basing your self-worth on something a bit more solid and closer to home, hmmm?
I mean, Apple could go with ARM, or AMD, or even build their own CPUs. But what if they stay with Intel? Would you be able to go on living? Or would you have a total meltdown at the mall, over fries and a pop?