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Germany Considers Free Public Transport in Fight To Banish Air Pollution (theguardian.com)
"Car nation" Germany has surprised neighbours with a radical proposal to reduce road traffic by making public transport free, as Berlin scrambles to meet EU air pollution targets and avoid big fines. From a report: The move comes just over two years after Volkswagen's devastating "dieselgate" emissions cheating scandal unleashed a wave of anger at the auto industry, a keystone of German prosperity. "We are considering public transport free of charge in order to reduce the number of private cars," three ministers including Environment Minister Barbara Hendricks wrote to EU Environment Commissioner Karmenu Vella in the letter seen by AFP Tuesday.
The only reason I drive rather than commute by train is that it's a lot cheaper for two people to drive than it is to get the train.
Free doesn't mean free. It means now every time your neighbor gets on a bus you have to pay a fractional cent. Paying it for them motivates them to use it more. Now it means all your neighbors.
That might work there, but where I live the bus sucks so bad I couldn't use it if it were free. It takes a minimum of three hours to get to where I want to be, less than one to drive.
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Public transport should be cheaper than taking your car, but if it's free, then people abuse it (taking it for granted) and there is a downward spiral of ghetto-ification.
There's lots of people who commute every day that don't actually need to be in the office every day.
But the company decides it's more convenient and they aren't paying for the commute so they make everyone come in.
I could do 95% of my job from home, but no, I have to come in, because it's easier to yell across the office than it is to pick up the phone.
If there is only 1 bus every day, even if the bus is free, I will not take that bus.
I live 6km from my work, there is a bus that stop just in front of my house every hour. I still take my car to go to work. Why?
By car it take me 15-20min to go to work in the morning and 8-10min to go back in the evening.
By bus with a change for a metro it take me ~20min in the morning and between 45min and 1h15 in the evening.
Even if the bus and metro were free, I still value the time lost way higher than the price of riding with my car.
Now people they would walk will take the bus instead, so there will be more bus lines and people will get fatter, causing them to take the bus more
itâ(TM)s like a virtuous cycle but with obesity and pollution instead
provided free of change by the manufacturers and the conductors and engineers will all be working for no pay?
Here's the thing: It costs billions and billions, and billions to make and maintain those roads. That's considered a worthy service built by shared effort of the society. The additional cost of running buses across those roads is much less, basically a small percentage of cost to increase the the capacity and utility of those roads more.
It makes the overall society more efficient, since those tax dollars are saving millions of individuals much more money over time, usually folks who actually spend money in the economy instead of the savings/investment classes that tend to shelter their activities from the economy at large.
Ad described, at least, makes sense to me - and would be nice to use if I ever visit there.
Ryan Fenton
Roads receive "investment", public transport (including rail) receives "subsidy". As if a layer of tarmac is somehow going to earn money on its own if only enough were spent on it.
Politicians love to play these verbal sleights of hand to fool the stupid and unfortunately it works a lot of the time.
Sure, because if public transportation was free, everyone would quit their jobs and just ride around on the buses all day.
As for all of the commenters in this thread who have poor bus service - it's a self-fulfilling cycle. Fewer people use the bus, so municipalities reduce public transportation funding, so bus service keeps getting worse. Breaking the cycle requires greater investment in public transportation, and greater incentive for people to use it - like making it free.
The biggest obstacle to public transportation improvements is the condescending attitudes of rich people, who believe "buses are for poor people". Because rich people are the ones who make the policy decisions.
Some cities such as Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, etc. are so spread out that providing reasonable public transportation, even if people are paying, is impossible. Europe has dense urban cores in their cities, and even car-centric German cities haven't spread out so much that providing transportation is a problem. A place like Dallas with zero natural boundaries has spread out to hundreds of square miles. In cities like that, public transportation isn't generally used as a way to get to work...it connects low-income housing with places of employment, hospitals and shopping areas because that's where the limited funds are best spent.
Other US cities like New York, Boston, Philadelphia and Washington are at least candidates. Metro NY has a decent regional transportation system...there are 3 commuter railroads and several suburban bus lines, and a good amount of development has grown up around the rail lines. And of course, the city itself has subways and buses. Unless they absolutely need their cars to get around during the day, or are super-wealthy and don't care about parking costs, most people who are working normal-schedule jobs take the train or bus into the city. In other cities, you'd need way more than free fares to get people out of their cars.
Fare revenue from public transportation doesn't come anywhere close to paying for the real cost of running the system. Getting rid of it would make it even harder to run, unless everyone decided that it was a public good and should be paid for with taxes or reduced spending on roads. Also, people would have to understand that they can't externalize the cost of living on a 3-acre lot in a super-far flung suburb...making bigger roads just encourages more sprawl-based development. And that's a lifestyle change I don't think most Americans can handle.
The government assigns you a job and assigns you a living apce within walking distance of that job. Government also assigns doctors, dentists, grocery stores, other shops places within walking distance of everyone and tells you which doctor to go to, where to shop, etc. No problem.
In other words, all these problems are an offshoot of our ability to make choice. You choose where to live, you choose where to work, you choose where to get your entertainment and, at the moment, you choose how to get there. Complain too much about how the system is failing and the answer will be to start taking away some, and eventually all, of those choices.
You are forgetting that roads are also heavily subsidized. So, each time you drive to work you are taking money from a neighbor who cycles, or walks, to work. https://frontiergroup.org/repo...
"Aside from gas taxes and individuals’ expenditures for their own driving, U.S. households bear on average an additional burden of more than $1,100 per year in taxes and other costs imposed by driving. Including:
An estimated $597 per U.S. household per year in general tax revenue dedicated to road construction and repair.
Between $199 and $675 per household per year in additional tax subsidies for driving, such as the sales tax exemption for gasoline purchases in many states and the federal income tax exclusion for commuter parking benefits.
An estimated $216 per year in government expenditures made necessary by vehicle crashes, not counting additional, uncompensated damages to victims and property.
Approximately $93 to $360 per household in costs related to air pollution-induced health damage."
This is only a small snip from the article that I provided the link to.
I work for a municipality (in a different country) and made the same suggestion about a decade ago. I suggested that public transportation should be free. I reasoned that being free, many times more people would use it. The reduced wear and tear on roads and thus the savings on road maintenance, the reduced air pollution and resulting slight health improvements, less traffic congestion and thus time savings for everyone would offset the cost of funding the transportation. The idea was dismissed as being ridiculous by some. I didn't do a cost analysis, but I thought it should have been at least looked at. I'm glad to see there's some forward thinking types in Germany at least considering it. Hopefully it work out. The reduced air pollution would probably also net some savings for countries that have publicly funded healthcare (I don't know if Germany has this or not).
Free.
"You keep using that word, but I do not think it means what you think it means."
"I don't think software should necessarily be free
Per Netflix's Dirty Money, all of the major car manufacturers are putting out cars that break their own emissions standards - and NOBODY in their own governments is doing anything about it. It's as if they've all been bought off.
Maybe the corrupt... er, "green"... German government should go after the lawbreakers before trying radical (and potentially really disruptive) ideas like giving services for free.
BTW - If you haven't seen that Dirty Money episode about Volkswagon, take an hour out and watch it. Amid the surprising depths of dishonesty that higher-level executives will go to turn an ever-bigger profit, the part about the Volkswagon-employed Germans actually considering gassing people (and monkeys) to win a PR war is darkly hilarious.
I was both in California and in Germany. I understand what you mean, however, in comparison with Germany there is no public transport in California.
In Germany pubic transport is rather clean and efficient.
Same for a Bus or a Train, Dirty, Smelly, NASTY!
Even an 40 year old beater car is better than public transportation.
your 40 year old car has 40 years of accumulated and uncontrolled fungus growth in the seat cushions and the heater ducts. it has 40 years of dead skin cells accumulated in the carpet and the upholstery. it has 40 years of your spew soaked into the driver's seat.
Old-guy I get free public transit in JAX; never use it. Public transit makes me stand outside in the heat and cold. I drop-dead in ten minutes waiting for a bus in 90-F weather. Happened twice. I drive a Mustang and kiss-the-babes. Public transit = nogo for me. Fuck warmists.
Why would I want to get on a bus full of savage niqgers and jihadists? This kind of thing only works, if it works at all, in an ethnically homogeneous society and not a Judeo-bolshevik "global village".
There is no such thing as free. Governments are not a source of revenue. Anytime anyone says the government will provide something for "free" they'd be much more accurate if they'd instead say "paid for by someone else that is compelled by the government under threat of force and/or imprisonment."
I'm sure this will get down-modded repeatedly because we're at a point where over 50% of people are receiving "free" stuff from the government.
A major reason is due to air pollution, aka taking care of your citizens health. Also known as not permitting car companies to externalize costs, i.e. having some one else cover the cost of people sickened by your product.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Germany is still the largest coal user in Europe. The mining unions are very powerful there, cars are a drop in the bucket as far as pollution, the thing is they are visible, not many people like to live next to large power plants. If Germany had not shut down there nuclear plants they would have easily met the EU mandate.
Same for a Bus or a Train, Dirty, Smelly, NASTY!
Have you ever been to Germany and used the public transport here?
If not, how can you judge?
I'm using public transport here in Berlin daily. And while there is room for improvement, the buses and trains usually are not dirty or smelly.
I saw a story that the local bus systems spends 10 bucks for every buck it gets in fares. So how far are we from free as it stands. Europe may be different but in the US the mass transit brand is pitiful except for a few cities. People already pay a significant premium to drive.
I hear much of the rail lines in California were bought out long ago by the gasoline companies, and shut down to passenger transport.
Public transportation will never work in America until the older people (35 and up) here die, they are ridiculously lazy and scared of practically everyone.
I always wonder if the cost to provide, collect, process, enforce, etc public transportation fees (i.e. bus fee, subway token, etc) is more or less than the money actually collected.. For example, I recently took a public trolley that had to have and electronic machine at each station to accept th coins to print the trolley-trip-ticket. Is the cost of deploying and operating the ticket machines including collecting the money and maintaining them and the cost of the paper tickets and picking up the trash from dropped tickets and employing guards to check tickets, etc more or a significant part of the cost of the $1.25 ticket price?
Maybe it is cheaper to make the transportation free for all.
I hear much of the rail lines in California were bought out long ago by the gasoline companies, and shut down to passenger transport.
They were bought out by a combination of automobile companies, gasoline companies, and tire companies, and there was plenty of other money involved as well. Trains are just too damned efficient for America.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Bullshit!
I live in the ruhrgebiet, which has the highest population density of not only Germany, but in western Europe.
Believe it or not, most people around here do not work in Düsseldorf or even Köln. They work in places like Ratingen, or Essen or even Duisburg.
Personally, I happen to live a mere 16 KM from my office. Very short by standard of this area of Germany.
Now, normally I leave for work at about 6:30 and it takes me about 25 min to get to work. On the way home, at 16:30 it normally runs about 35 min. If I leave at 5, it takes about 1 hour or more.
How long does it take with the train? Hard to say, since there is no train. There are hardly any trains around here.
What about the bus you ask?
I tried that once. 2.5 hours. No fucking thanks.
My eBike? About 50 minute, no matter that time I leave.
In the summer I only take my ebike. I would love to take a train or a bus, but it is literally impossible to use public transport to get to and from work where I live. So... I drive. There has never been a situation where I could not park either.
I could not care less if the bus was free. It's like giving out free chocolate covered shit bars. Sure, they are free, but it's still a shit bar.
Public buses are gross where I live. I can only imagine how much more disgusting they are in places with millions of 3rd world migrants that piss and shit everywhere. Not to mention how violently psychotic those creatures are.
I'll keep my nice clean car, thanks.
Germany, along with other 1st world polluters, should stop exporting/outsourcing their "recylce services" to africa, where the afrikaner are burning pcbs, wires, coils, e.t.c. to extract metals like copper.
The only one who cares is some California grade citizens that drive a prius to reduce "smug", but send their trash to be burnt in 3rd world countries.
Green energy and environmental friendly investments is the easiest excuse to burn E.U. money without others asking questions.
People abuse it and don't take care of anything that is "Free"
Look at any public bathroom, NASTY!
In Germany many bathrooms in public areas are pay toilets, and they are definitely cleaner than the free public ones.
...that most of the comments posted for this story are from people who haven't spent much time travelling in and between German towns and cities. Unless you live somewhere really small and remote, German public transport is comprehensive (synchronised trains, trams, buses, and metro), safe, clean, reliable, frequent, and convenient. Also, European cities were designed and built long before the car was a thing, so most things are within walking distance from each other. Town and city centres are also pleasant, green, lively places to be; to go to (pavement) cafes and bars, go shopping, buy groceries, the cinema, theatre, etc., or just hang out downtown and watch the people go by and maybe bump into someone you know. It's a very different way of living compared to the north American towns and cities I've been to.
BTW, I remember being stopped and asked by a couple of German students in Canada who wanted to know where the local supermarket was (in a town of over 100,000 residents). They were shocked when I told them there were no downtown supermarkets.
Debate is a form of harassment. Do not question my truth.
Since all roads lead to Ausfahrt, I'll just wait for that bus. Then I will be sure to get there.
My backpack holds enough for a week of food.
But the supermarkets are literally down the street. I have 4 in under 1km distance. So I simply jave no need to stock up.
I just jump on my bike and get whatever I crave, on the day that I need it. Basically I treat the shops as my pantry and fridge.
Of couse I still do stock up on items that I don't need often. Like salt or oil etc. I just buy whatever went empty at the beginning of the month when I don't need it earlier.
But remember all the offerings we have available.
My bike, bike sharing, car sharing, taxi, cargo taxi (30â to move all my stuff to a different apartment), bus, tram, s-bahn (urban-suburban trains), dense train network, and only then planes.
I was both in California and in Germany.
Are you sure you're ok? How'd you survive the split?
That was the streetcar lines in the early 20th century. The US used to have the most extensive railroad network in the world, and Los Angeles (!) had the most extensive streetcar network in the country. Many of the streetcars were built by private companies, and the cities put restrictions on them like not raising the fare above 5c even when inflation raised expenses. The companies went bankrupt, the cities took over the streetcar lines, and then in the post-WWII car mania they ripped them out and replaced them with buses, and then let the bus network deteriorate and cut service and didn't extend it to new neighborhoods. The earliest ones were removed in the 1930s (Los Angeles); the latest ones in the late 1950s (Portland). Some northeastern cities that are denser like Europe kept some of their streetcar lines and commuter rail and modernized them (Philadelphia, Boston; also San Francisco; along with the Chicago El and Metra; NYC subway, PATH, LIRR, Metro-North, NJ Transit).
What letthelightin is talking about is an additional factor, as depicted in the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" The car makers (not gasoline companies I think) bought up streetcar networks and ripped them out and replaced them with their own companies' branded buses, with less service so that people would buy the company's cars. There's disagreement over whether that really happened, but probably. I was born after the streetcars were gone so I didn't see it.
Atlanta is doesn't have decent public transport? Someone better tell MARTA
IOW, your ass is talking shit, son.
Way to go Team Creimer show them who is the genius!
Also never let those naysayers get into your dreams!
Team Creimer dreams:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
I have just closed my eyes again
Climbed aboard the Team Creimer train
Driver take away my worries of today
And leave tomorrow behind
Team Creimer, I believe you can get me through the night
Team Creimer, I believe we can reach the morning light
Fly me high through the starry skies
Or maybe to an astral plane
Cross the highways of fantasy
Help me to forget today's pain
Team Creimer, I believe you can get me through the night
Team Creimer, I believe we can reach the morning light
Though the dawn may be coming soon
There still may be some time
Fly me away to the bright side of the moon
And meet me on the other side
Team Creimer, I believe you can get me through the night
Team Creimer, I believe we can reach the morning light