New Tech Industry Lobbying Group Argues 'Right to Repair' Laws Endanger Consumers (securityledger.com)

chicksdaddy brings this report from Security Ledger: The Security Innovation Center, with backing of powerful tech industry groups, is arguing that letting consumers fix their own devices will empower hackers. The group released a survey last week warning of possible privacy and security risks should consumers have the right to repair their own devices. It counts powerful electronics and software industry organizations like CompTIA, CTIA, TechNet and the Consumer Technology Association as members... In an interview with The Security Ledger, Josh Zecher, the Executive Director of The Security Innovation Center, acknowledged that Security Innovation Center's main purpose is to push back on efforts to pass right to repair laws in the states.

He said the group thinks such measures are dangerous, citing the "power of connected products and devices" and the fact that they are often connected to each other and to the Internet via wireless networks. Zecher said that allowing device owners or independent repair professionals to service smart home devices and connected appliances could expose consumer data to hackers or identity thieves... Asked whether Security Innovation Center was opposed to consumers having the right to repair devices they purchased and owned, Zecher said the group did oppose that right on the grounds of security, privacy and safety... "People say 'It's just my washing machine. Why can't I fix it on my own?' But we saw the Mirai botnet attack last year... Those kinds of products in the wrong hands can be used to do bad things."

Comments

Paging Richard Stallman...

[Anonymous Coward]

The IT world needs your commentary, Mr. Stallman.

Re:Paging Richard Stallman...

[LinuxIsGarbage]

The IT world needs your commentary, Mr. Stallman.

Give him some time. He needs to wait for his cron job to finish. He surfs the internet as follows:

"I usually fetch web pages from other sites by sending mail to a program (see https://git.savannah.gnu.org/g...) that fetches them, much like wget, and then mails them back to me. Then I look at them using a web browser, unless it is easy to see the text in the HTML page directly. I usually try lynx first, then a graphical browser if the page needs it (using konqueror, which won't fetch from other sites in such a situation)."

AKA Security Through Obscurity

[Zamphatta]

& history's shown that isn't a good idea. unfortunately, I'm guessing the not-so-tech-savvy politicians will fall for that argument, especially since they'll get a lot of money to do so.

Re:AKA Security Through Obscurity

[Anonymous Coward]

Post all your user names and passwords.

Re:AKA Security Through Obscurity

[PolygamousRanchKid]

I'm guessing the not-so-tech-savvy politicians will fall for that argument, especially since they'll get a lot of money to do so.

I'm guessing that the NSA is afraid that if we are allowed to open up the devices we own, we might find the "friend" that the NSA has planted in there.

Like and Intel Management Engine, for instance.

Re:AKA Security Through Obscurity

[Anonymous Coward]

I demand the right to hack my neighbor's Tesla autopilot.

I hate that dick.

Re:AKA Security Through Obscurity

[Anonymous Coward]

List available here

Re:AKA Security Through Obscurity

[Ironlenny]

If you open the case, you'll let the hackers in!

Re:AKA Security Through Obscurity

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm guessing that the NSA is afraid that if we are allowed to open up the devices we own, we might find the "friend" that the NSA has planted in there.

Unlikely.
Most people wouldn't be able to tell an NSA backdoor from any other chip in a device if they opened it.
Those who would are going to take it apart regardless of what the law says and in most countries reverse engineering for self education is legal anyway.

Also, most of the time repairing doesn't take any particular skill or knowledge.
Anyone who is capable of selling phones would be able to follow online instructions to replace the screen.
After the early 2000's capacitor debacle a lot of them had to be replaced on motherboards and in TV's.
Soldering on a motherboard sounds geeky at first, but since the problem was with hole mounted capacitors anyone who ever soldered a null-modem cable had the equipment and skill needed.

This is purely a commercial move, either to make bank on repairing old devices or to make it so expensive that people are forced to buy new ones.

Re:AKA Security Through Obscurity

[Anubis IV]

There is some of that, sure, but they actually have a point hidden in the doublespeak.

For instance, in the case of the touch sensors used by iPhones, they’re uniquely paired with the rest of the hardware via cryptographic keys, ensuring that if a bad actor ever tried to replace the sensor with one that would grant them unfettered access the rest of the iPhone would refuse to play along.

The problem, however, is that this trade organization is trying to suggest it’s an either-or problem when it isn’t.

If a user wants to replace their touch sensor without going through Apple, they should be able to do so! The cryptographic keys shouldn’t prevent them from doing so, and Apple, thankfully, has backed off on their previous stance that caused that iPhones using third-party sensors to cease working. That said, if a user chooses to do so outside of Apple and enters their password to confirm that they accept the use of an untrusted part, they also accept the responsibility for vetting that part themselves, which few of them are likely to ever do. As such, they are indeed opening themselves up to a variety of potential security vulnerabilities.

All of which is to say, if a user is buying from a particular manufacturer, they clearly trust that manufacturer, and I’m fine with a manufacturer taking steps to ensure that trust is well-placed, but if a user wants to take that responsibility on themselves, let ‘em. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.

Re:AKA Security Through Obscurity

[rhazz]

It's not even that, it's just the same fear-mongering that Apple was trying to push when they wanted to criminalize jail-breaking iPhones a number of years ago. Back then it was claimed to be risk to the mobile infrastructure allowed by having users install third-party software on a device connected to the network. All they really wanted was to maintain full control at the expense of the consumer because it's part of their business model. The difference is that today the fear-du-jour for devices is privacy and there are more players in the market.

YEAH! They endanger customers!

[Zurkeyon3733]

They are in danger of NOT completely emptying their wallets to the fat-cats and the CEOs "Bonus" programs and Beer Funds.... Gotta fix that!

Let's let the consumers decide

[alvinrod]

Let's let the consumers be the judge of what's a danger to themselves. People who try to go around making laws and rules for someone else's good tend to do a spectacularly poor job of it and generally cause just as much harm as good, even in the case where they're well-meaning instead of clearly under some ulterior motives as is the case here.

If people want to accept some increased risk (which I don't believe exists) by using third party repair services, that's on them. If a company wants to warn their customers about the possibility of danger, that's as far as they should go.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[careysub]

I don't think you are following along with this subject (though mysteriously you are currently rated "Score:4 Insightful").

It sounds like you think that there is a movement afoot to pass laws to ban people from repairing their own property. That is the opposite of what is happening here. Businesses are trying to take away the ability to repair products through purchase contracts, designing products that can only be repaired by the manufacturer (there are various ways of doing this), and restricting access to spare parts. People are trying to get legislation passed to preserve the ability to repair products, which has up to now been assumed to exist.

The whole point is that corporations are trying to take away the ability of letting consumers decide.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[El Cubano]

Let's let the consumers be the judge of what's a danger to themselves. People who try to go around making laws and rules for someone else's good tend to do a spectacularly poor job of it and generally cause just as much harm as good, even in the case where they're well-meaning instead of clearly under some ulterior motives as is the case here.

I totally 100% agree with you. However, I feel it necessary to point out that the logic being used by these industry trade groups boils down to "these are dangerous things which must be kept out of the wrong hands."

Coincidentally, or not coincidentally depending on how conspiracy-minded you are, that is the same argument used by gun control advocates.

Now the merits of the position can certainly be argued as to how they pertain to both smart electronics and also firearms. However, I would consider anyone that supports right-to-repair and gun control, or who opposes both, to be engaging in some sort of congnitive dissonance. People can either choose for themselves or they cannot.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[Anonymous Coward]

What this misses is that without a law saying that everything has to be repairable, there are all sorts of ways for a company to make it uneconomical, unfeasible, or cryptographically impossible for anybody else to repair things.

Just saying there shouldn't be any relevant laws is equivalent to saying "let them eat cake".

Re: Let's let the consumers decide

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps then, industry should spend a little more time on "should I make this?" rather than, "Fuck it, chuck it out there then lets con some politicians to pass bogus legislation."

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[Kjella]

The whole point is that corporations are trying to take away the ability of letting consumers decide.

Well, in the past you were mostly concerned with the quality of the repair and we've had that whole run with third party parts and uncertified labor. Unfortunately with a lot of modern gadgets it's not that it doesn't work, it's that it's also a Trojan horse. Like, whatever the customer wanted fixed is fixed, but it'll also steal all your private data or contain a backdoor to be controlled like a puppet. With digital signing it can empty your bank accounts and do serious damage. It's not just because they want to secure their own monopoly profits that they want to ensure the integrity of the system.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[Kjella]

That "-1, Overrated" mod really should be replaced with "-1, I disagree but I got no arguments or facts to contradict you with so I'll just try to silence you". Ah well...

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[burtosis]

"Which has up to now been assumed to exist" assumed by who? Because I clearly remember apple trying to claim and also fight in court that jailbreaking is illegal Also that fixing your home button is illegal - they bricked phones over it before the backlash of stupid forced them to recant (FFS just disable the print reader not the phone) Tell this to farmers who can't repair thier own tractors because it's illegal, it goes on and on. We wouldn't need right to repair laws if it was always assumed.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[Anonymous Coward]

Except this is being used by John Deere to make it so only they can repair their tractors.

So, farmer John's tractor needs an oil change. He could do it for $80 for the oil and a filter, but NO - he has to call John Deere, so they can send a technician to do it for him. Sure, the oil change is only $120 (50% mark up), but the trip charge (farms tend to be isolated places, away from civilization). is another $240. So, yeah, now you're talking about an $80 oil change costing $360. Keep complaining about the cost of groceries.

And what danger is there of the tractor getting hacked?

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[Anonymous Coward]

Except this is being used by John Deere to make it so only they can repair their tractors.

So, farmer John's tractor needs an oil change. He could do it for $80 for the oil and a filter, but NO - he has to call John Deere, so they can send a technician to do it for him. Sure, the oil change is only $120 (50% mark up), but the trip charge (farms tend to be isolated places, away from civilization). is another $240. So, yeah, now you're talking about an $80 oil change costing $360. Keep complaining about the cost of groceries.

And what danger is there of the tractor getting hacked?

Same AC - Forgot to mention WHY the dealer has to do it:

To reset the software kill switch that stops the tractor dead after so many operating hours, when the oil change is due.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[fido_dogstoyevsky]

Sounds standard for mission critical systems where hundreds or thousands of lives could be at stake. Don't like
boenig's exorbitant maintenance fees? Come to Bob's discount 787 repair.

Provided Bob is licenced (ie they've proved they really understand how to fix stuff properly) - there really isn't a problem.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[William Baric]

You just repeated the nonsensical argument of the industry. I do think the "overrated" mod was appropriate.

Is it possible that a repair shop would install a Trojan horse on one of their customers' devices? I guess. Is it probable? No. Believe it or not, but not every technician is a criminal who wants to empty your bank account and then flee the country.

Do you also believe company should forbid people to change their hard drive and to reinstall the OS on their computer because they would end up being "controlled like a puppet?"

Re: Let's let the consumers decide

[Puls4r]

By your reasoning , we'd be finding gps trackers installed in our cars so independent repairman can sell or location data. Plumbers would install remote shutoffs so we had to call them back. By your logic, no repair would ever be a safe repair if done by a third party. You are an idiot.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[Anonymous Coward]

Letting consumers be a judge of what's dangerous sounds good in theory, but people are generally not very knowledgable. See, tide pod challenge, stupid tech support questions, etc.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[clovis]

If, as these industry leaders say, these products are so dangerous, then liability for errors in their design needs to be written into law.
And especially for well known bad design errors such as common admin passwords, backdoors, and ports open by default to incoming connections.

At first I agreed that letting the consumers be the judge of what's a danger. There's no way a consumer can know about the internal design of these products, and it's probably illegal to try to find out anything if the manufacturer chooses not to publish.
It's not always the purchaser that gets harmed. Buying a device that becomes part of a botnet may cause much more harm to third parties than the purchaser. Who is liable for that harm? Right now, pretty much no one. I can't support making the consumer responsible for making a poor choice of a device that has an obfuscated design and interface.

They claim these are dangerous products. So, let's take their word for it, and make these dangerous products have lawfully required minimum standards in the same way that cars, airplanes, household electric devices, and plumbing do. And make the manufacturer liable for civil and criminal charges if they fail.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[omnichad]

So don't trust any third party repair companies, but totally trust the first party manufacturers because reasons. They are no more trustworthy and they know it.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[Anonymous Coward]

Adjusting GP's point, then, results in: Require the vendors to offer the equipment in both third party repairable and proprietary repairable versions for the same price (or allow the proprietary repairable versions to cost more) and see what the market wants.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[WinstonWolfIT]

Bought two Surface Books -- 3 year warranties -- with the full knowledge that warranty service means a clean unit is sent back to me. Hello Cloud. The detach feature on one of them borked, and it was seriously painless to restore my account when the replacement arrived. To me, this is far preferable to the hunk of iron that my Thinkpad was -- as much as I loved the TP's keyboard, it was serious shoulder strain. Pretty certain the Macbooks are equally not repairable.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[CrashNBrn]

However, I feel it necessary to point out that the logic being used by these industry trade groups boils down to

This is a "Lobbying Group." And much like most such groups,
1) Claims to represent companies|people that it doesn't,
2) Chooses a name "Security Innovation Center," that is the polar opposite of it's actual intent,
3) And like most Lobying Groups exists soley to bring about specialist protectionist legislation that will screw over the most people for the least amount of money.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[JaredOfEuropa]

Neither of these are black and white issues, unless you believe in an absolute right to bear arms or repair stuff. There's always a trade-off, and usually there are multiple options between the 2 extremes. Someone may want the right to repair because the upside (cheaper repairs because of no monopoly, more devices being repaired instead of thrown out) outweighs the downside (a very very very farfetched scenario where a rogue repairman called Harry Tuttle installs an illegal little bypass in your aircon). There's no contradiction in that same person weighing the upside of owning guns for self defense against the fact that with guns we invariably end up with a bunch of dead kids from time to time, and deciding that a ban on guns is better. Or maybe to push for gun control and registration, if that means we can have guns but no dead kids. It's not about whether or not people can choose for themselves or not, but what the potential consequences of their choices are.

Re: Let's let the consumers decide

[Anonymous Coward]

Also people who don't like that their neighbors store radioactive materials.

I may say then that the anti gun control crowd hate net neutrality, given Pajit's friends.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[Anonymous Coward]

Warranty repairs is only for the warranty period. (Your three years.) Computers no longer double in speed every 18 months, so I keep my devices much longer than the warranty period.

Smartphone? On its fourth year. No need to replace it as it still works fine. Replaced a battery that died.
PC? five years, still going. Had the graphics card replaced under warranty when the three years were almost up. If some minor part breaks, I can replace it myself.

It is not a problem of money - I could afford a PC every two years if I wanted to. But why? New PCs aren't much better than the old, and there is the hassle of setting the new machine up the way I like it. So another year it is.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure if trolling or idiot.

There are shades to positions. You fuck. I can support some gun control like "No machine guns for schizophrenics." and also support "My new phone can't be glued shut by the manufacturer."

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[jvkjvk]

I don't think you are following along with this subject

What? Of course he is. *you* appear to be the one not following along.

It sounds like you think that there is a movement afoot to pass laws to ban people from repairing their own property.

There is. From TFS: "The Security Innovation Center, with backing of powerful tech industry groups, is arguing that letting consumers fix their own devices will empower hackers. "

A movement afoot to ban people form repairing their own property.

That is the opposite of what is happening here.

O really? From TFS: "The group released a survey last week warning of possible privacy and security risks should consumers have the right to repair their own devices."

Right there, "risks" should consumers have the right to repair"...

People are trying to get legislation passed to preserve the ability to repair products

Possibly, but nowhere in the summary does it say something like that. This is about what YOU say isn't happening.

The whole point is that corporations are trying to take away the ability of letting consumers decide.

The whole point of THIS article is that there IS a movement afoot to pass laws to ban people form repairing your own property, which directly contradicts your previous assertion.

From TFS: "asked whether Security Innovation Center was opposed to consumers having the right to repair devices they purchased and owned, Zecher said the group did oppose that right "

Kind Regards.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[Anonymous Coward]

Letting consumers be a judge of what's dangerous sounds good in theory, but people are generally not very knowledgable. See, tide pod challenge, stupid tech support questions, etc.

Look, we had like what? 50 years where people could get their VCR or TV repaired at some third party without problems.
They could easily have harmed themselves by trying to do so themselves. Mains current is dangerous and a CRT could give you a shock and a if you poke at the high voltage.

The idea that we shouldn't be allowed to repair or stuff wherever we want is stupid and people arguing for less ability to repair are either stupid or malicious.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[CaptainDork]

... I'll just try to silence you ...

Hyperbole.

I can see the post, so it's certainly not silenced.

Value judgement aside, moderation doesn't work the way you apparently think it does.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[Anonymous Coward]

"Which has up to now been assumed to exist" assumed by who? Because I clearly remember apple trying to claim and also fight in court that jailbreaking is illegal [wired.com] Also that fixing your home button is illegal [inverse.com] - they bricked phones over it before the backlash of stupid forced them to recant (FFS just disable the print reader not the phone) Tell this to farmers who can't repair thier own tractors because it's illegal, it goes on and on. We wouldn't need right to repair laws if it was always assumed.

The right to repair can be asserted as a right "retained by the people" (9th Amendment) and "reserved to the people" (10th Amendment). As such, the lawyers attempting to prevent the exercise of this right - whether a contract is involved or not - are violating their oaths to uphold the Bill of Rights.

This is also the infringement of fundamental rights "under the colour of law", which is a criminal offence under long-standing federal law.

The problem is getting the judiciary to uphold the laws on the books. Associations of legal professionals make substantial campaign contributions to the politicians who select judges (or to the political parties to which judges belong).

It's the usual problem. The law is clear, but the politicians and the legal profession are unethical and don't care what the law says if there is money to be made. They ignore the law, and hide wrongful conduct behind a bodyguard of laws. This claim that "right to repair laws endanger consumers" is just another lie.

The clear lesson here is that crime does pay, you just have to be a lawyer or a politician and hide what you doing behind a lie.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[david_thornley]

Um, why the cognitive dissonance? A libertarian could easily oppose gun control and government regulation of what private corporations make, or someone could think guns dangerous enough to warrant regulations and want the ability to repair legislated, dismissing this claimed danger. Those are completely consistent viewpoints.

Re:Let's let the consumers decide

[Rakarra]

Do you also believe company should forbid people to change their hard drive and to reinstall the OS on their computer because they would end up being "controlled like a puppet?"

If you believe all the phone manufacturers and video game console manufacturers*** , then yes!

*** Actually, just about every consumer electronics company outside of the desktop computer market.

WTF!

[Anonymous Coward]

So if I repair my stuff myself I can be considered a HAXOR!!

What is next? If I breathe air and exhale carbon dioxide I can be blamed for contributing to global warming?

Re:WTF!

[Ungrounded Lightning]

What is next? If I breathe air and exhale carbon dioxide I can be blamed for contributing to global warming?

That argument HAS been made. Also if you fart. Especially if you're a cow.

No, really! They've passed laws (at least in California) requiring cow farts to be collected, rather than letting the methane (several times more3 greenhousey than CO2) be released into the atmosphere to cause global warming. Since it's not practical to build a machine to suck them out of the cows, cattle operations now have to keep the cows in sealed barns and do some pricey processing of the air.

Couldn't POSSibly be the vegans trying to make hamburger prohibitively expensive, nope, nope.

Re:WTF!

[dgatwood]

Or they could just add red seaweed to their feed.

Re:WTF!

[postbigbang]

And so they're trying to fool with bovine genetics to get the farts out of the gene pool. No, really.

Fool with cow genetics, try to fix your washing machine. Which one is worse? We have a schematic for the freaking cow, but we can't get one for the washing machine.

That's a problem.

Re:WTF!

[haruchai]

"Also if you fart. Especially if you're a cow."

It's the burps, not the farts that produce most of the methane
http://metro.co.uk/2017/03/25/...

Re:WTF!

[Anonymous Coward]

God damn it creimer, don't you have a #Fatlivesmatter dinner meeting you could attend instead of submitting your spam to slashdot?

Re:WTF!

[Anonymous Coward]

You sound bitter, bro.

Re:WTF!

[Anonymous Coward]

Breaking out the "don't know what to say" classics tonight, Chris?

Security, privacy and safety?

[quonset]

WTF? These "smart" devices already aren't secure, send your data to someone at a distant location, and don't always work as the manufacturer says they should. And these same people are worried someone might hack them?

What next? Making computers where the bits and pieces are welded on so one can't upgrade it?

Re:Security, privacy and safety?

[LinuxIsGarbage]

What next? Making computers where the bits and pieces are welded on so one can't upgrade it?

Isn't that basically what Apple has been doing for years?

Re:Security, privacy and safety?

[Z80a]

Welding? no of course not.
They gonna pot the whole thing.

Re:Security, privacy and safety?

[technosaurus]

An ultrasonic weld on a plastic case _would_ make them essentially waterproof... they already got rid of the headphone jack, so it only follows that the rest of the connectors will be replaced with a wireless pseudo-replacement.

Re:Security, privacy and safety?

[Z80a]

There are other reasons to pot all the components, for example, stopping people from repairing your device by turning it into a solid chunk of resin.

I really want to murder

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to cut them open and pull out their heart with my bare hand.

Points for chutzpah anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I sure would hate it if a hostile party had control of my device and was limiting its use and determining what I could do with it.

But I really like how their argument boils down to 'We screwed up the security, therefore you should trust us and only us.'

This is yet another reminder of why the IoT is a stupid idea. If your washing machine is even capable of identity fraud, you're doing something wrong.

Re:Points for chutzpah anyway

[PolygamousRanchKid]

If your washing machine is even capable of identity fraud, you're doing something wrong.

My robot has its own Facebook page and plans to hack the next election in the US.

It is also apparently fluent in Russian, because it chats Russian late at night.

peddeling bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

as much as you can. and you know it!

Car Repair

[Anonymous Coward]

Next thing you know, people will want to repair their own cars, and you can run people over with cars!

Covered by 2nd Amendment

[Anonymous Coward]

Anything that can be used against government tyranny, such as guns and computers, are considered "arms" and therefore protected by the 2nd Amendment in the U.S. We have a right to bear and maintain these devices.

Re:Covered by 2nd Amendment

[Smallpond]

Anything that can be used against government tyranny, such as guns and computers, are considered "arms" and therefore protected by the 2nd Amendment in the U.S. We have a right to bear and maintain these devices.

No. Firmware on your musket prevents you from loading anything but original brand mini-balls.

Re:Covered by 2nd Amendment

[ShanghaiBill]

No. Firmware on your musket prevents you from loading anything but original brand mini-balls.

Quibble: They are Minié balls, named after their inventor, Claude-Étienne Minié. They are fired from muzzle loaded rifles. "Musket" usually refers to smooth bores.

Minié balls were used in America's worst mass shooting.

stop putting crap on the internet

[Anonymous Coward]

"People say 'It's just my washing machine. Why can't I fix it on my own?' But we saw the Mirai botnet attack last year... Those kinds of products in the wrong hands can be used to do bad things."

Problem number 1 is you stupid fucks decided to put Wifi in a washing machine. I have an older washing machine with a clockwork type timer control mechanism. I had the replace he timer about 6 months ago, took all of 15 minutes to repair. My washing machine doesn't need to be internet connected.

Re:stop putting crap on the internet

[Bing Tsher E]

Sadly, I used to work for one of the companies that made the clockwork timers in white goods. The big appliance companies have transitioned away from electromechanical. That's part of the reason I no longer work for that company. Their business dried up.

Now I am working as a repair tech on stuff that includes John Deere products....

Re:stop putting crap on the internet

[b0s0z0ku]

For what it's worth, quite a few low-end and commercial appliances (e.g. Speed Queen washer/dryers) still have clockwork timers. I'm not sure if they're better than digital. Digital control panels are sealed and have no moving parts -- a well-designed system should last decades and be immune to entry of dirt or liquids.

Re:stop putting crap on the internet

[Mashiki]

Well that's because electromechanical devices have a low failure rate. If they can't charge out the ass by forcing the customer to buy an entire new front-end array for half the cost of the washing machine it's really bad for the bottom line.

Now I am working as a repair tech on stuff that includes John Deere products....

Bet that's fun, most farmers around here dumped their Deere stuff a few years ago when they decided to be pricks over the farmers ability to control their equipment. You can pick up a 2yr old Deere tractor loaded to the gills for $20k but no-one is buying. On the other side of that, the price for Fendt and Deutz-Fahr have gone up around 30% and there's parts shortages.

Re:stop putting crap on the internet

[b0s0z0ku]

Electromechanical devices (with moving parts) fail more than a properly designed all-electronic control panel. Key phrase: properly designed.

Re:stop putting crap on the internet

[Anonymous Coward]

Modern electronics are designed to fail shortly after the warranty runs out.

Re:stop putting crap on the internet

[b0s0z0ku]

Depends on the electronics. I'm typing this on a Thinkpad that's 5+ years out of warranty.

Re:stop putting crap on the internet

[Mashiki]

Electromechanical devices (with moving parts) fail more than a properly designed all-electronic control panel. Key phrase: properly designed.

Except for those millions of cases where they don't right? Ask yourself how many times you've heard from someone saying that their brand new electronic whatever has already failed in warranty, but their parents 30 year old whatever is still chugging along and hasn't stopped. Or you have some asshat of a company like Samsung that built their fridges to fail just outside of the warranty phase(all electronic bits fyi). Here's the thing, we're really good at making electromechanical devices that last long, and have low rates of failure. The relays and emr-switches that our company uses have a failure rate of 1:900k over 10 years. They have to handle wet, dry, humid, extreme heat/cold and keep going day in and day out.

I'll agree that some stuff has a higher failure rate, cars for example with non-electronic ignition had multiple points of failure and were prone for the simplest no-start problems mostly relating to the rotor. On the other side, for every $1k central console in car that fails and takes out the: radio, navigation, heater, signals, and so on. That 20 year old clunker next to you with all mechanical relays, wires, and switches is still going strong.

Re:stop putting crap on the internet

[Anonymous Coward]

Haw many times do you think my parents replaced various parts in that 30 year old whatever?
You think the temperature sensor, timers, alternators, etc. in those things just last forever?
Now, I don't disagree with you that modern equipment is designed to fail, but the point is that technically electronic could be better.
It just isn't because it's easier to engineer to fail at the right time.
It's also harder to replace, so that's a nice bonus.

Re:stop putting crap on the internet

[JaredOfEuropa]

They do break. I had one break on my 14 year old machine when the motor overloaded due to worn out shocks. A common occurrence apparently. The repair guy quoted around €400 for a replacement logic board... Thankfully, these older board aren't sealed and are pretty old school: a little Googling and replacing €4 worth of parts and it was back in business (after replacing the shocks as well). Which is great, these older Miele brand machines are not 100% maintenance free and not without faults either, but they are mechanically indestructible (this was the first time it failed, and the first time it needed repair). They certainly don't make 'em they used to!

Re:stop putting crap on the internet

[Anonymous Coward]

Modern electronics are designed to fail shortly after the warranty runs out.

ie They need connectivity so they can check the date.

Re:stop putting crap on the internet

[inode_buddha]

Bullshit. My ma's old Kenmore dryer lasted 30 yrs with only *one* service call -- for a worn-out belt that I could have changed myself. The electromechanical controls were still working just fine when she scrapped it in 2001. This is with normal use every other day for a household of five.

Re:stop putting crap on the internet

[Whorhay]

Laundry equipment is my favorite example of an expensive model being worse than the cheap base models. When I bought my set of laundry machines I got the $500 pair frankly because that was what I could afford. Right around the same time my Parents moved to a new house and my Father decided to splurge on a new $1000 washing machine. Within a few years the safety shutoff switch on the door of his washer failed because it had rusted apart. Then a couple years later the computerized controls failed and had to be replaced. They've spent something like $500 on just parts fixing a $1000 washing machine over the last 10 years. Mean while my set has had a water pump and air heating element fail, both of which cost about $50. When the water pump failed my wife actually patched it up with a hot glue gun so she could use it while we waited for the new pump to ship. And the dryer could still be used to tumble dry things in a pinch.

I have heard talk that the more expensive machines are much more energy and water efficient. Where I live though that isn't really much of a concern, power is relatively cheap and water is a few dollars per thousand gallons.

Re:stop putting crap on the internet

[Mashiki]

Haw many times do you think my parents replaced various parts in that 30 year old whatever?

Generally? Once. I'll give you an example, the fridge my parents have was made in 1973, it's now 2018. They've had to replace the thermostat in it once, that was back in 1994 or so. That's it.

You think the temperature sensor, timers, alternators, etc. in those things just last forever?

Generally? Those things do last forever. The average failure time on an alternator is around 12 years. Various engine sensors are built to last around 8-10 years. Doesn't mean there can be issues, for ones that have "rotational components" built into them like TPS and so on, or do duty in an extreme-heat environment like the O2 sensor(these are the most common failures) because hot/cold cycling can cause the ceramic casing to break and that ruins the sensor.

Technically they could be better, but they aren't. Companies are designing components to have a particular lifetime, and the rare cases where this isn't true is when it's devices that keep people safe. Even then, with the swath of chinese knockoffs, and chinesium metals there's supplyside failures because of it.

But the source

[Anonymous Coward]

A group representing electronics manufacturers, who stand to gain financially by controlling access to their devices, argues that granting consumers access to a device they bought is "dangerous" to them and to everyone. Right. Don't for a second believe these folks have anyone's interests at heart but their own - the laws of corporation actually strongly discourage executive officers from arguing otherwise.

Re:But the source

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's the survey: https://securityinnovationcenter.com/2018/02/

Read it for yourself - it doesn't say what TFA is saying.

Oh, the horror!

[sandbagger]

"He said the group thinks such measures are dangerous, citing the "power of connected products and devices" and the fact that they are often connected to each other and to the Internet via wireless networks."

Translation: most dhttps://it.slashdot.org/story/18/02/24/1939255/new-tech-industry-lobbying-group-argues-right-to-repair-laws-endanger-consumers#evices are routers.

Oh, the horror if people find that out!

Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

Because we are all unenlightened morons that would go around sticking our fingers in sockets without the infinite wisdom of our Big Brothers and Sisters in the tech industry. I'm a technician and power user of 25+ years (though I don't work under any of these corporate umbrellas), longer than some of these CEOs and lobbyists are old, and they can spare me, then blow me. Not many of us are that stupid, kiddos.

Why would hackers care?

[Anonymous Coward]

If they are breaking the law anyway this is hardly going to deter. This is quite similar to the "think of the children" type of argument. An appeal to emotion not logic.

Repair parts as dangerous as guns?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is all just absurd. The right to repair does not empower hackers. The availability of repair parts doesn't threaten people's safety. Guns can be used to threaten someone but there is no chance of us restricting them but repair parts now they are just criminal you might save a few dollars by repairing rather than replacing saving your family from financial ruin and heck even prevent greater tragedy. But let's criminalize repairing your own device violating the doctrine of first sale while putting more guns into tense situations because that will solve everything. In this absurd world maybe starving lions will lie down with sheep rather than you know doing the logical thing and eating them.

Annoys me that the used the word "security"

[raymorris]

It bugs me that they called themselves the "Security Innovation Center". Those of us in security have consistently advocated for the need to be able to work on devices in order to secure them. Most recently the Obama administration tried to push through regulations requiring manufacturers to "prevent the installation of OpenWRT and similar third-party firmware" on routers. We successfully argued that preventing firmware upgrades often prevents security fixes.

These jack asses do NOT represent security anything.

Re:Annoys me that the used the word "security"

[burtosis]

Just run it through the BS inverter:
Security Innovation Center" - Illegal Corporate Lock In Center
"Right to work" - Divide and Conquer
"Patriot Act" - Unconstitutional Removal of Privacy Act
etc...

Re:Annoys me that the used the word "security"

[Anonymous Coward]

They are plainly just as much anti-innovation. I wouldn't be surprized if "center" turned out to be a lie as well.

Re:Annoys me that the used the word "security"

[Anonymous Coward]

I led this fight- and unfortunately we lost because government does whatever government wants and ignores the rights of the people. I led a war I new I'd loose. You want to win? You better gather with like minded people who are really willing to fight cause the deluded masses certainly will blindly follow government and kill you. The only people fighting are principled libertarians and they're migrating to New Hampshire to gather together as part of the Free State Project. They're winning battles in New Hampshire and there are a lot of battles you can win at the state level. Maybe one day there will be a war and we can win back the right to fuck with our own hardware- but it ain't happening anytime soon.

Re: Annoys me that the used the word "security"

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, there's a fad going on to move to New Hampshire. Which is ruining the place.

Re: Annoys me that the used the word "security"

[Anonymous Coward]

The true function of most corporate departments can be seen in the negation of its name:
Purchasing - save money by making it harder to buy things
Personnel - drive away good employees and make it hard to hire new ones.
Accounts payable - save money by not paying bills
Accounting and Finance - obfuscate all transactions so the stockholders don't know what is going on.
R&D - inhibit innovation through the requirement for elaborate justifications before beginning any projects
Information Technology - delay or prevent use of new technologies
Etc. ...

Leave barn door open, blame cows for results

[rgriff59]

So the very tech industry actors that created the stage for the Mirai botnet think letting consumer take any control of those same actors' faulty devices will create significant new dangers? I think allowing those manufacturers any more unsupervised commercial activity is far more dangerous.

What they are really afraid of

[WaffleMonster]

They don't want customers fixing any of the "SMART" malware they purchased to no longer endanger their privacy, security, artificially limit capabilities or restrict choice.

Lost malware = lost revenue

Okay

[c]

If you're arguing that consumers shouldn't be able to fix stuff "because security", then we presume that you're promising the stuff you sell actually is secure and that you're willing to accept 100% liability when things get hacked?

* crickets *

Well then, fuck you too.

Re:Okay

[Bing Tsher E]

Their tact is that since their product will be 'locked down' we will not have the ability to even determine if the security is at fault. They want black boxes everywhere that absolve them of blame.

Re:Okay

[burtosis]

I call BS on the grounds all data has already been stolen. When we won't even hold equifax responsible for collecting data on all Americans, most of which is against thier will and or knowledge, they can simply get fucked.

i think they mean...

[Anonymous Coward]

that self-repair endangers the backdoors and exploits that are intentionally implanted by the manufacturers at the request of various government entities.. in addition, it'll make the manufacturers look bad when their lazy, shoddy programming and security is discovered and fixed by ordinary users..

Missing from the tool's quote

[Rick Zeman]

"Zecher said that allowing device owners or independent repair professionals to service smart home devices and connected appliances could expose consumer data to hackers or identity thieves."

"That's our job."

Then why do they churn out abandonhardware?

[anon mouse-cow-aard]

I have never walked into a house that had a router less than five years old. I keep mine for 10 years at least, it's a natural lifetime. Do any manufacturers provide software updates for hardware > 2 years old? no. I have two google nexus 5 phones, no software support at all I'm sure appliance companies said, sorry your washer is two years old, we don't stock those parts, they wouldn't stay in business very long. I don't understand making objects smart suddenly makes their useful lives shorter than a gerbil's.

Re:Then why do they churn out abandonhardware?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a washing machine circa 1985 in the house I bought in 2010. There are no electronic parts or Internet access, but it cleans just fine. I have done one load of laundry per week for over 8 years. Not everything needs to be computer controlled.

Re:Then why do they churn out abandonhardware?

[mnemotronic]

Not everything needs to be computer controlled.

Absolutely. My new computer controlled, energy & water conserving, "kind to clothes" machine sucks in ways you can't even imagine.

Re:Then why do they churn out abandonhardware?

[Anonymous Coward]

I seriously considered purchasing from the one outfit that makes washing machines designed for customer repairs top load horizontal-axis washer. In the end the disposawasher on sale cost about 1/3 of the staber list price. Repairability has a value and a cost.

Re:Then why do they churn out abandonhardware?

[umafuckit]

I don't understand making objects smart suddenly makes their useful lives shorter than a gerbil's.

Because it makes it makes planned obsolescence easier. People are often willing to buy again every few years in order to get something incrementally better. Also, the appliances in question are often small and easy to get rid of.

Re:Then why do they churn out abandonhardware?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can.

Because i just bought a new one.

And it sucks worse than any i've ever seen.

Re:Then why do they churn out abandonhardware?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an 8 year old washing machine with both electronic and mechanical components. The electronic components have never failed, but numerous mechanical ones have. My point is that the age prior to the 90's/00's was a magical age where things were built to last.

I'll also note that some of the failures were due to my wife's bra underwire coming out and gumming up the pump. Maybe the washer is fine but they don't make bras like they used to?

Easy Fix

[pubwvj]

There is an easy fix to the "Tech Group's" fallacious "survey" concerns about devices connected to the internet: just don't buy devices connected to the internet that don't need connecting to the internet. My fridge, my stove, my vacuum, my washer, my drier, my water heater, my breaker box, my...

Besides, those are not really what the issue is about. The issue stems from third parties, including users, not being able to repair their cars, trucks and tractors. I certainly do NOT need my tractors connected to the internet. Besides, there is no service here on our farm that the tractor would connect to - no cell, no wide area WiFi, etc. John Deere and other makers are sucking the life out of us by over pricing repairs and they're locking us in by banning us from repairing our own equipment.

Same companies behind Net Neutrality

[Anonymous Coward]

Anything to control people...

What they don't want ...

[PPH]

... is for consumers to 'repair' their devices by disabling the phone home features. Or in the case of IoT devices with a legitimate need to be connected; to redirect the connection to a competing service or home server. So the vendor won't be able to monetize the collected data.

Pass a law saying repair costs fixed at $5

[Anonymous Coward]

If these industries say it is too dangerous to allow consumers to repair, then put in place legislation that takes all profit out of repairs. They MUST fix your device for $5, and that cost can never change, no matter what. They also cannot refuse to repair your devices. This garbage has to end, and if they don't want the consumer to do it, then they can't gouge them either.

Walled Gardens are for flowers not gardeners

[Anonymous Coward]

Why can't you sheep understand, the walled garden is the best thing ever! You can stand inside the wall and admire the flowers! You should be happy!. We love our walled garden that we sell to you at outrageous prices, and if a flower wilts, you'll only need to spend 3/4 of the cost of outright replacement... so you can enjoy your pretty flower again.

Oh, you think you could actually keep that flower alive? Even with help by somebody that knows how to make the flower better?

HACKZORZ!!!! Bad for Business! Veiled Security Threat #1... Veiled Security Threat #2... Veiled Security Threat #3..... call in the congressional lobbyists!! No mere mortal can save your flower in your pretty walled garden unless its *our* mere mortals... charging you 3/4 of outright replacement.

*boggle*... this is why we can't have nice things

What a load

[sjames]

That has to be the worst excuse I have ever heard. I sincerely hope someone superglues their ass cheeks together in their sleep so they will stop spewing so much shit.

I find it interesting,

[jenningsthecat]

that many of the people who are pushing back against right-to-repair legislation and sentiments, are the same ones who are pushing STEM education and mandatory comp sci courses in high school. Do they really think that having greater numbers of technically skilled citizens won't result in a much bigger, more knowledgeable, and more effective push for right-to-repair? I rather think the swelling ranks of the tech savvy will insist on using their hard-won skills on their own behalf to repair, manage, and control the devices and machines they depend on.

It's hard to tell if Big Tech simply hasn't spotted this contradiction, or if they're in damage control mode. Or maybe they're confident that the social engineering and propaganda mechanisms they've put in place are up to the challenge of controlling their future wage slaves' self-interested impulses.

Online Petitions? Counter arguments?

[rnturn]

How do people who are not shilling for major corporations with nothing but a profit motive band together to address silly-assed arguments like this?

Are there groups that won't be merely waved off as a bunch of insignificant cranks because they don't have lobbyists?

EFF? Are they chiming in on this?

tired of all the paid liars

[Anonymous Coward]

this country is becoming so corrupt and stupid.

The trouble with right hands...

[Anonymous Coward]

Is the bad, bad things they get up to isn't it?

I call that

[oldgraybeard]

what the bull leaves out in the pasture! I will dissect anything I purchase if I decide to! If I can not I do not want it in my life.

Just my 2 cents ;)

The Rise of the Industry Tool...

[Grog6]

Hire someone to say Fucking Anything remotely coherent, put it on facebook, and people think it's the motherfucking Gospel.

As long as there's a way to program the original device, someone will eventually hack it.

They should be held responsible for security

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Now that the industry has admitted how dangerous these products could be, they should be held 100% responsible for securing them. Any breach, especially on a locked down device that the consumer did not or could not mess with, would be their liability.

Since the devices might outlive the companies that sold them, all such devices must carry insurance, premium paid by the manufacturer, to make good on any damage they might cause.

Only when there is an actual cost that affects their bottom line these guys will take security seriously. Forcing them to buy liability insurance will make some one look at the devices and assess the security.

Re:They should be held responsible for security

[Anonymous Coward]

Now that the industry has admitted how dangerous these products could be, they should be held 100% responsible for securing them... Since the devices might outlive the companies that sold them, all such devices must carry insurance...

Better yet, make the board of directors, the ceo and a couple of levels further down personally responsible - no limited liability. Unless they're not really all that dangerous.

Those evil washing machines

[Anonymous Coward]

Wel I for one was unaware the Mirai botnet was caused by consumers repairing their washing machines, we live and learn..........

How about

[Ol Olsoc]

Some enterprising manufacturer make say, a completely user repairable smartphone, and let the market decide.

I can repair a present day smartphone as long as I can get the parts for it.

But that's another thing. How long does the right to repair enforce availability of all of the parts in that smartphone. 10 years? 25? forever?

Modular or component level repair?

What level of acumen is the baseline user? Someone like me, who has operated on chips themselves, or Grandma who has never dissasembled anything?

then there are power issues. Short out or damage that LiPo? scary stuff.

Then we get ot the upgradeability. Will this phone be required to have upgrades for lifetime?

I'm basically seeing this repairable phone as something huge and thick, and very expensive as a stockpile of every part or module is needed and the space requirements for making it possible to change the parts is added.

Re:How about

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a bit torn about what i wrote below, because i'm all for allowing freedom to conduct business as a company sees fit, but i do not like the huge waste and environmental costs that some companies cause because of their practices. Replacing, instead of repairing, a faulty $200+ logic board with a broken 5 cent fuse is just insane. Making things repairable would also create jobs locally and reduce the overall cost for the customer.

You have many different levels of repairs and component-level repair can be quite economical, depending on the device.. And even your grandma would benefit from making it easier for component-level repair since 3'rd party repair-shops could do it for her.

Look at how much apple charges for a logic-board on their macbooks... Finding a broken fuse and replacing it is fairly easy.. Issue with Apple is that they have been fighting for not allowing PCB schematics to 3'rd party repair-shops.. If i remember correctly they even started to not label the components on the logicboard making it really hard to do component-level repair..
Then figure in what they have been doing with the HDD's.. First it was plain SATA.. Then they went over to a proprietary connector just to make people forced to buy a replacement from them, that you could not buy except second-hand.. Now they are integrating the flash on the logic-board. So if anything on the logicboard breaks, like a 5 cent fuse, all of your data will be lost without even being able to go to Apple to have it repaired. A plain logic-board will run you $300-600 in cost + lost data. Having a failed fuse repaired will run you $50-$200 depending on how difficult it was to locate.

Apple is not the only one doing this but they have been the biggest opponent to making things repairable by the end-user or 3'rd party repair-centers..

I'm all for:
- If there are test-points on the PCB the documentation, that already exists internally, should be made available.
- If there is a test-port that can locate issues on a PCB the specifications for it should be released.
- Block-schematics and PCB layout should be made available to 3'rd party repair-centers. At least when the product goes end-of-life.
- Intentionally making it harder or impossible to repair something, like removing component-labels without releasing a component layout, should be illegal.
- Having a software lock, like john deere, that needs to be reset by a technician going onsite after doing something as simple as an oil-change should be illegal. But i'm fine with a requirement of only using authorized materials during the warranty period.
- Anyone should be allowed to buy replacement-parts, if those parts are available in their own repair-center.
- If you have a bad chip that has code on it it should be allowed to make a replacement (copy) of the code and write to a new chip. (as long as you cannot buy a original chip from the manufacturer)
- If you do component-repair yourself or use a 3'rd party repair-shop i'm fine with loosing the warranty.

I would be fine if the above was only valid for production-runs of 10k or more or if the replacement part cost more than $50.

The "We don't want to release our PCB layout or schematics because other companies can then make copies" is just bullshit.. Going from PCB to a schematic can be done quite cheap.. To name a few x-ray, de-solder all components and have a robot mapping all connection-points, de-laminate the layers and use a plain camera.

Another view-point is that many of the big ones straight out refuse to repair anything with what they call water-damage (caused from a spill, high humidity etc). 3'rd party repair-shops may tell you "this device is water-damaged so you will not have warranty on this repair" and you can choose what route you want to take.

Re:How about

[Ol Olsoc]

Let's remove the Apple stuff, just so we can avoid the cherry picking that often happens here from some of the people who hate all things Apple.

Let's take an example of a small computing device like the Raspberry Pi. Let's also assume it meets that 50 dollar limit. So in making it repairable by the consumer, the manufacturer would need to make certain that a stockpile of parts were on hand. This is a problem that manufacturers have today with device design. There are some venerable semiconducter components that are still produced years after their initial release - like the 555 timer chips and the amazingly elderly but still capable 2N3055 Power transistor - but many devices are cancelled abruptly and with little notice.

Its quite a gamble for the manufacturers. with replacement parts now. Imagine having to stock parts so that grandma can fix her iPhone 4, or old Nokia Feature phone.

The prices would soar.

I suspect a lot of this right to repair started with people being pissed that after abusing the crap out of their phones, they couldn't just go to WalMart and buy a replacement battery and pop it in. When the real problem is that they should quit abusing the damn thing.

My parable of all this is that my son is on my family plan, and he came in with the wife and I to trade up We all had iPhone 5's. Mine was pristine, and battery still held a like new charge. Hers looked very good, but she didn't take as good care of the battery, so it was a little soft. His looked like what I'd seen so many other young peoples phones. Cracked bezel, scratched case, battery not so hot.from many discharge to shutoffs and charging with dodgy power sources. So another case of what level of use and abuse should the mfgrs be held to?

Re water damage. I won't look at them any more. A friend wanted her's repaired after the cat peed in it. After disassembly and queasy work of cleaning it, I simply coudn't get it working again. So I managed to buy another one of the same model, re-install The OS and Programs and files form a time machine backup, and get her back in business. She promptly spilled soda on her new laptop.

So I consider water damage as total destruction now.

Partially they are correct

[Anonymous Coward]

If they can repair iPhone, I wouldn't buy it as it can cause security issue at deep level affecting Apple Pay, keylogger to grab password etc. I primarily use Apple products bought mostly from Apple store because that means they have not been tempered with. When I was on PC (25+ years), I used to buy brand name computers from major stores only. That does not mean I don't trust small guys. I have been using open source software since 1991. I just can't trust a random for-profit company with my security. I don't buy any internet connected refurbished products from unknown companies as there is no guarantee of their integrity.

Re:Partially they are correct

[Anonymous Coward]

So replacing a 5 cent fuse on the PCB causes a security-issue?
Replacing a iPhone screen with a apple part causes a security-issue?
Having a re-pairing process with a fingerprint-reader from apple causes a security-issue?

Having some random repair-shop doing a hardware mode to install a hardware-keylogger etc it not really likley... It will cost them money, and it can be traced back to the person that did it.
The big problem is that the big brands don't want you to repair your own device but either replace or send it to them to fix at 10 times what it would cost with a local repair-shop...

If you have a look at the big brands out there..
Apple: Remember the recent issues where you could login as root without *any* password?
Lenovo: Remember the thing with Superfish where they installed a root-certificate on all their machines?
https://www.ghacks.net/2015/02...
https://www.techdirt.com/artic...

HP: Remember the laptops with preinstalled keyloggers.
https://www.cnet.com/news/keyl...

All the big brandnames all have big issues with security and they do not care about your security... They care about their bottom line and getting you buying a new version as soon as possible instead of keeping your old device.
https://www.cnet.com/news/unbo...

Fear mongering

[emaname]

It's what politicians and lobbyists do. Unfortunately our society is very susceptible to it. Maybe better education can make our country less susceptible to it. But with the way present-day politicians are slashing educational budgets, it doesn't look encouraging.

Slanted poll?

[mnemotronic]

... according to the organization’s survey of 1,015 Americans ... 84 percent told survey takers that they value the security of their data over convenience or speed of service.

So if they had asked me: What do you value most:

• A: Data security
• B: Convenience
• C: Speed of service
• • I would probably have answered "A". The inappropriately named "Security Innovation Center" seems to be saying this means consumers don't want the right to repair. If they said "speed of service", in that context I would have been thinking "network throughput" when what they meant was "time to repair". Use of ambiguous or duplicitous language in a poll is unforgivable.
    
    In any case, I'm not trying to fix or repair my device; I'm attempting to break it. The equivalent of driving over it with the tractor. I'm allowed to do that. Of course I'm a terrible hack. I may not be entirely successful in my attempts to disable or destroy the device's firmware. Gosh darnit.

COMPTIA makes me sick...

[Anonymous Coward]

Their whole A+ certification revolves around ripping open a PC and building it again from scratch. If they're so against repairing electronics, then why would they "endanger" their certifees?

Collusion

[Anonymous Coward]

This is clearly collusion and should be investigated by the FBI.

keep hands clean - not evildoers' clothes

[Anonymous Coward]

Evildoers must not be sold washing machines! If they get their hands on them, terrible atrocities could occur! Washing machines are like machine guns!

FTFA: "'It's just my washing machine. Why can't I fix it on my own?' But we saw the Mirai botnet attack last year... Those kinds of products in the wrong hands can be used to do bad things."

Think of the money

[Anonymous Coward]

The first day of university cryptography course, this rhyme: Security through obscurity is a fallacy. Here's another look at that: Knowing that the locks on your house have tumblers doesn't let the crooks instantly through the door. They are still kept out By Having Strong Locks! Now when it comes to repair: there are several things at play: if anyone can fix it, then the company doesn't get to say when the product is "all use up and unfixable". Can you imagine a car company saying "oh, sorry, your car has passed the 25,000 mile mark, its all use up and can't be fixed. We'll sell you a new one. Sorry we can't give you anything for the old one." Apple software is helping apple sell new phones to old customers. Their software is cheating customer, just like Volkswagen did with their diesels in benchmarks, just like Nvidia did with their video cards in benchmarks. Intels security problems let to a 1.5% decrease in performance because of preemptive execution and priveledge escalation, and also proof of concept abilities to read the TLB (computer high-speed index to programs in main memory). But it's more than that. John Deere is preventing farmers from fixing their tractors. If you swap the main board because the dealer can't see you for six weeks (till past harvest), then your tractor has no warranty (but if you don't harvest you have no income). And Ford and Chrysler and GM are doing the same thing, and its bullshit. These trade organizations (CompTia, et. al.) are a collective lobby group for greedy investors. They should be banned from their efforts. They have been a bane on the industry for over 25 years, but it depends, if you are a billionaire you probably like them, if you are a user of technology, they suck. They offer higher prices, lower or worse service, and less choice.

When did the The Security Innovation Center...

[magusxxx]

...speak out against Best Buy?

"Zecher said that allowing device owners or independent repair professionals to service smart home devices and connected appliances could expose consumer data to hackers or identity thieves"

How is it any different than Best Buy dumping people's computer and phone contents onto their own systems?

Why didn't they go to Congress and yell, "They can't be trusted to repair stuff anymore!"

You're automatically guilty until proven...

[MindPrison]

...innocent kind of belief they're going with there. Always the same boring, and mindbogglingly stupid argument:

"Those kinds of products in the wrong hands can be used to do bad things."

It would be the same as accusing the other 99% of actual product owners who just want to modify/optimize/better/repair and fix their own stuff to save a few buck, not to mention saving the entire planet - of being the criminals.

And if you own a product - YOU OWN IT! What part is there not to understand? Of course you can't demand warranty if you fiddle with it yourself, that is to be understood. But if it's yours then it's truly YOURS to mess with.

By all means makers - have fun, modify stuff. I'd do that regardless of laws. No law in this world is going to bar me from doing what I want with what I paid for. If there's lawmakers in my country that thinks otherwise, it's about time to ship them out somewhere else.

who fixes then?

[Anonymous Coward]

The great robbery was when the industry convinced their bought and paid for politicians that physical products were no longer sold but licensed. If the consumer is not allowed to have their low quality, broken devices repaired, we need to get mandatory 10 year parts and labor warranties that include firmware updates for known security flaws. If the manufacturer doesn't agree, don't let them sell in our markets.

This should be easier now that most of the tech products are made overseas and by foreign companies. Push this with our MAGA representatives as an us vs them issue and we should get some support for this idea.

Right to Repair? More Like the Right to Phase Out!

[X!0mbarg]

It looks more and more to me like the "Industry" is trying to get things set so that they have all the rights, and final users do not. Mostly, this takes the form of "providing a service" over actual ownership a device.

If you Own it, you have every right to try and fix it, should it fail, or behave erratically. This allows you to get your monies' worth out of the darned thing, before having to buy a whole new one.

Should it be designated as a Service, then the service provider has the lions' share of the rights, and can force an upgrade, or phase out all or part of a service that is not as profitable to them whenever thy feel like it (more or less).

Just look at Microsoft. They would like us to swallow the notion that their O.S. is a Service, and have us pay a subscription fee for its use. They even tried this with M.S. Office. All this in their attempt to curb piracy of their over priced software.

On the hacker vulnerability: If they want access to a device, they'll hack into it! This will happen if it's legal to do so or not! Probably more-so, if it's been made illegal, as the rush is increased, and the chances of a user finding it through personal efforts to repair their oddly functioning device discovers something awry.

On a more Corporate focused level: The big companies want us to not see what they are doing in the background. Plain and simple. If we do not have the Right to Repair, we loose the right to investigate the operation of the devices we rely on for our daily functions, and security. If we can't see what's going on, then they can get away with murder! "Oh, your slow device is simply past its operating capacity, and you simply need to get a new one." Apple/iPhones, anyone? How about good old Microsoft XP/7?

Given this insight, is it any wonder why the Tablet aspect of the industry has not taken off?

On a personal note: I do Not trust "the Cloud" for anything. My files are stored on my own drives, and kept behind firewalls, routers, and in a reasonably secure network configuration. If hackers want my personal info, they have to hack into my network to get it, not simply invade Facebook when I'm not looking. If they are determined, there's very little I can do to stop them. Kind of like my car. If a thief really wants it, I can't stop them from dragging it onto a flatbed towtruck and hauling it away while I sleep.

One of the reasons I turn my systems Off at night, or when not in use. It's a LOT more difficult to get hacked when the system is not even powered on!

Of course, my Windows 10 systems seem to power on all by themselves, from time to time, and it took me a bit of doing to get that to stop...

I wonder what they were looking for?

Maybe, I'll never know...

Stop selling knives!!!

[frosch]

We shoud buy our food allready cut, because... "Those kinds of products in the wrong hands can be used to do bad things."
Really?!

there's a suprise

[Anonymous Coward]

a Juden causing trouble ? say it aint so, and they wonder why every society in the history of man has ejected them, not for who they are, but what they do.

What ever happened to the Free Market?

[Anonymous Coward]

The only things "Right to Repair" endangers are monopolies and cartels.

EFF: Defend Your Right to Repair!

[tepples]

EFF? Are they chiming in on this?

Yes. Electronic Frontier Foundation does in fact have an issue page about right to repair.

Re:Right to Repair? More Like the Right to Phase O

[Stan92057]

I fixed Windows 10 by never installing it.Everyone was warned way before hand what win 10 was..And everyone missed the warning signals, ms gave it away for FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE And tricked lazy/trusting people to installing even more copies. Lied to pro buyers and removed functionality they paid for the only people who have the real balls are people like me who just said no. If my PC dies im going Linux but i hate have to do that as linux wont allow me to install any of my software. but going windows 10 would be far worse...My times running out i have a EVGA 790i ultra MB that probable only last a few more years..Video cards are being phased out for 7 not even worth the trouble to upgrade the processor and intel probably stop making that processor as well..haven't checked though.

Warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

Put a mandatory 40 year warranty on everything then.

Danger

[Anonymous Coward]

All that it really endangers is there bottom line.

Are you shitting me? It's the COMPANIES that

[Anonymous Coward]

are stealing our privacy and committing data-theft!

Hackers gonna hack

[Anonymous Coward]

Hackers don't care about rule or laws. They will do what they want regardless, and anything that happens to the law will be moot concerning them. It just screws over the "legit owners".

Isn't that the same argument ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... Ajit Pai used to justify repealing net neutrality? That consumer protections are actually harmful to the consumer?

Given the truly sociopathic tendencies of Silicon Valley, you don't need to know anything about this issue to know that if they don't want it, it must be good for consumers -- which also means, in the current environment, it ain't gonna happen.