US Says Russia Hacked Energy Grid, Punishes 19 for Meddling (apnews.com)

Associated Press: Pushing back harder on Russia, the Trump administration accused Moscow on Thursday of a concerted hacking operation targeting the U.S. energy grid, aviation systems and other infrastructure, and also imposed sanctions on Russians for alleged interference in the 2016 election. It was the strongest action to date against Russia by the administration, which has long been accused of being too soft on the Kremlin, and the first punishments for election meddling since President Donald Trump took office. The sanctions list included the 13 Russians indicted last month by special counsel Robert Mueller, whose Russia investigation the president has repeatedly sought to discredit. U.S. national security officials said the FBI, Department of Homeland Security and intelligence agencies had determined that Russian intelligence and others were behind a broad range of cyberattacks beginning a year ago that have infiltrated the energy, nuclear, commercial, water, aviation and manufacturing sectors. Further reading: Russian Government Cyber Activity Targeting Energy and Other Critical Infrastructure Sectors (US-Cert); U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energy grid, other sectors (Reuters); U.S. says Russian hackers targeted American energy grid (Politico); Trump administration finally announces Russia sanctions over election meddling (CNN); U.S. sanctions on Russia cite 2016 election interference -- but remain largely symbolic (USA Today); U.S. Sanctions Russians Charged by Mueller for Election Meddling (Bloomberg); and Trump Administration Sanctions Russians for Election Meddling and Cyberattacks (The New York Times).

Comments

Picking safe targets

[93 Escort Wagon]

Seems like they've chosen to sanction people already identified and charged by Mueller, but not anyone close to Putin.

Re:Picking safe targets

[ClickOnThis]

Seems like they've chosen to sanction people already identified and charged by Mueller, but not anyone close to Putin.

Correct, Mueller's 13 are among the 19 individuals sanctioned. Five organizations also were targeted in the sanctions.

But note that the administration is acting on an authority granted by Congress last summer, with a congressionally-mandated deadline to act by early February, a month and a half ago. Mueller's indictments occurred after that deadline passed.

And now Trump acts. To say he was reluctant is putting it mildly.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/15...

Re:Picking safe targets

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that how sanctions work? It's kind of hard to sanction unidentified people and those against whom you have no evidence.

Re:Picking safe targets

[ISayWeOnlyToBePolite]

If you believe the collusion conspiracy, those people are some of Putin's closest aides.

The Russians indicted by Mueller are allegedly the ones behind the fake social media posts, not anyone suspected of colluding with the Trump campaign. AFAIK no one believes Putin sent his "closest aides" to work with the Trump campaign but rather the opposite .

Re:Picking safe targets

[CaptainDork]

The sanctions just enacted are a response to an event that the administration said did not happen.

Mixed messages.

Re:Picking safe targets

[ISayWeOnlyToBePolite]

AFAIK no one believes Putin sent his "closest aides" to work with the Trump campaign but rather the opposite .

Sure, because nobody could guess who the “Happy 55th Birthday Dear Boss” sign was directed at. Couldn't possibly be Putin's buddy Yevgeny Prigozhin.

Again, that is from the Mueller indictment concerning the fake social media accounts, not anyone suspected of colluding with the Trump campaign.

Re:Picking safe targets

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that how sanctions work? It's kind of hard to sanction unidentified people and those against whom you have no evidence.

What makes you think The White House had no evidence? They had 6 months to act, after Congress issued a directive on Russia sanctions. And they pissed that time away, and let the deadline slip for six weeks. They're the fucking White House for God's sake. They have resources far beyond Mueller's investigation, to determine who warrants action regarding intervention in the 2016 election.

And -- surprise -- after the deadline slips, and Mueller indicts 13 Russians, and there are reports of chemical attacks in the UK by Russians, suddenly the White House issues sanctions against 19 Russian nationals, 13 of whom happen to be on Mueller's indictment list? Didn't Trump claim that Mueller's investigation was a witch hunt? And now suddenly Mueller's shit-list becomes part of Trump's?

We have seen this kind of plagiarism before. For example, the seven (Muslim-majority) countries on Obama-era the visa-restriction list suddenly became the list for complete travel bans under Trump. (Oops, make that six -- don't want to piss off Iraq.) And Melania Trump's speech to the 2016 RNC, almost verbatim-lifted from a speech Michelle Obama gave to the DNC years earlier.

Over and over, I have wondered whether this administration could go any lower, and over and over, they do.

Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Oswald McWeany]

Unfortunately with Putin you have a man who likes to hide behind his nuclear weapons sticking his tongue out breaking all the rules and niceties of international agreements and doing whatever the hell he wants knowing no-one will do anything too bad because he has nukes.

Obviously, I'm not going to say western countries are perfect, they're far from it; but Putin is dangerous because he doesn't play by the rules and he actively yearns for the good old days when Russia was subjugating many different nations and there was a cold war. Putin, to use a technical term is an immature jackass.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[iggymanz]

Putin is very mature compared to the orange haired buffoon; sad that even an ex-KGB gangster has more statesmanship than who we have.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[guacamole]

USA is the one who broke the international agreements (Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty in 2000s) and possibly even Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (by placing sea-based cruise missile launchers on European soil). USA invaded for no excusable reason Iraq, armed and supported jihadists in Syria, and bombed Libya resulting in civil war that lasts to this day. Much of the middle east is on fire because of the US actions, with hundreds of thousands dead, and millions displaced. But Putin turns out to be actually the bad guy and a jerk.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Ryanrule]

fuck you ivan.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck you ivan

Hey, is "ivan" the new term for someone who supplies detailed, easily verifiable facts in a calm manner and by doing so upsets crazed, illiterate, blood-thirsty lunatics drunk on fact-free fantasies and delusions of their own infallibility and grandeur? From the above exchange it surely seems so...

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Anonymous Coward]

Russia has far more to do with arming jihadists in Syria. Seriously, while the U.S. has been no saint in the matter, Russia has been far worse. Supplying chemical weapons is just one example.

Iraq was a bad play, can't defend poorly planned and misguided attempts at war for the profit of Halliburton among many other defense contractors.

The middle east is on fire for a whole host of reasons, the U.S. has contributed, Iran has contributed, Russia and Israel have all contributed. There are still more actors involved as well.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Anonymous Coward]

Iraq was a bad play. Afghanistan was a bad play. Libya was a bad play ... all at the hands of US intervention

Syria witnessed the birth of isis using the weapon caches from Libya. That was most definitely because of US intervention. And we won’t even go on about the 500bn worth of weapons sent. Or the 80 Toyotas that the US state department admitted to losing!

Or Benghazi gate thing didn’t happen? Which one is it? Remember it was that carelessness that later became the mess in Syria. As for Assad and the chemical weapons I say see “exhibit IRAQ”. Or no this time they’re really there?

Sounds like the tale of little red riding hood if you ask me lol. But in all honesty Russia, US (and China) when are people going to learn that their Govts (not the people) are as bad as each other. In the case of China they’re worse because they eat dogs (just sayin).

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[mrclevesque]

"Russia has far more to do with arming jihadists in Syria. Seriously, while the U.S. has been no saint in the matter, Russia has been far worse. Supplying chemical weapons is just one example."

I think Russia is supporting Bashar and the jihadists are fighting Bashar, so I can't see how Russia could be supporting jihadists. And if by chemical weapons you mean the supposed sarin incident, again why would Bashar or Russians do something so counter productive, and useless as trying to kill a couple dozen people with gaz.

Totally agree with the rest of your comment.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll just leave this here:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/7666/russia-breaks-arms-control-treaty-by-deploying-land-based-cruise-missiles

Since the treaty’s execution, both the US and Russia have concentrated their cruise missile arsenals to sea-based and air launched varieties, with the US throwing away its Pershing II medium-range ballistic missiles and BGM-109G Gryphon cruise missiles based on the Navy’s Tomahawk. Then in 2008 Russia began testing what US intelligence believed was a land-based cruise missile, possibly based on the Kalibr family of cruise missiles used by Russian naval units today. This was a blatant violation of the treaty, and the Obama administration worked to stop Russia’s testing of the missile in an effort to keep the treaty intact. The administration even floated the possibility of reconstituting America's own ground-based cruise missile program in Europe as a reaction to Russia's actions. Obviously these efforts proved futile and the fact that the SSC-8 is now operationally deployed leaves no room for interpretation as to Russia’s intentions.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Anonymous Coward]

What a load of nonsense.

GWB withdrew the US from the ABM treaty, following the procedure specified in the treaty to do so. He didn't "break" it.

The key violation of the INF treaty is the Russian Iskander missile. The US does not have intermediate range ballistic missile. At all. That Russia keeps complaining that the treaty does not suit them because China is not part of it (while placing their missiles in Kaliningrad, clearly where the Chinese are going to attack) is neither here nor there.

The top 3 meddlers in Syria are Iran, Russia and Turkey, all directly involved. Followed by the Gulf states giving money to various factions. The west, including the US, has largely stood by.

The Libya campaign was executed in accordance with a UN resolution that neither Russia nor China opposed, even though they had a veto.

The only point you're making that's worthy of consideration is the US invasion of Iraq.

As for Russia, how about we begin with Russia signing a treaty with Ukraine by which it guaranteed the integrity of its territory, not only not to invade it, but actually to defend it, in exchange for Ukraine abandoning its nukes, and then taking over part of it. Putin made a very clear statement that Russia's word wasn't worth wiping your ass with.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck you ivan

Hey, is "ivan" the new term for someone who supplies detailed, easily verifiable facts in a calm manner and by doing so upsets crazed, illiterate, blood-thirsty lunatics drunk on fact-free fantasies and delusions of their own infallibility and grandeur? From the above exchange it surely seems so...

As someone born in USSR I consider from life experience Russia to be a poverty, corruption, apathy, alcoholism and ignorance stricken shit hole festering in a decaying corpse of Soviet Union. It is a miracle there is anyone left in RF with a gun pointed to their head to keep anything running. Enjoy your kickbacks until train at the end of the tunnel arrives.

Re: Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Anonymous Coward]

"placing sea-based cruise missile launchers on European soil"

Do you even know what these words mean?

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[serviscope_minor]

Well since Ivan isted, I guess Dimitri and and Sergi have all the mod points.

Yeah yeah it wasn't Russia, that chap just tripped and fell on some nerve gas.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[TechyImmigrant]

>by placing sea-based cruise missile launchers on European soil

Wut? Sea based is in the sea. Soil is on the land.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[rtb61]

C'mon this is as funny as fuck, the US governments has turned into a pack of idiots. So let me get this fucking straight, the US has band thirteen Russians from entering the US that they, want to fucking arrest, interesting, Inspector Clouseu much https://www.youtube.com/watch?.... Your government has just turned you into a pack of ass clowns.

Yeah we all know the US is just trying to fuck with Russian Elections with the full support of US media and US government controlled Western media generally, but seriously why do suck a fucking stupid job of it. Gees you people used to invite these people to the US with a free trip to Disney Land, not flying naked bag over your head airlines, but a real airline, which when they get you to the US they used to make you pay for, false advertising much. Well at least this story isn't false advertising, stupid is as stupid. Fuck haven't even apologised for the sanctions applied upon a false basis, thirteen Russian trolls do not the Russia government make.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[GrimSavant]

There were some oddities earlier in the Syrian war where ISIS and the Assad government seemed to go out of their way to not conflict with each other, but ostensibly they were on opposite sides of the war the whole way through, and the other jihadists more aligned with the Al-Qaeda groups were definitely fighting against Assad the whole time. Usually, the jihadists commonly referred to are radical Sunnis, and Assad's an Alawite which is more closely related to the Shiites (hence his alliance with Iran), and those two groups are at each others throats in Syria much like the post Reformation religious wars in Europe between Protestants and Catholics.

Russia's supported the Assad government and fought on their behalf, and the Russian closeness with the Syrian government goes back at least to the Soviet Era. Apologia for Assad isn't really acceptable though, he's waged a brutal campaign in his fight for survival and is almost surely one of the worst war criminals around right now. Part of the problem is that at least some of his opponents would have the same penchant for slaughter or even genocide if they won, which is part of the reason why Syria is such a hellhole and quagmire.

As for why Assad would use chemical weapons, there is a twisted bit of dictator and civil war logic that makes it make sense: it ensures that his underlings and army cannot surrender. If he was about to lose, there's a chance that Assad himself could hop on a plane and escape to Iran or Russia, but very few of the people fighting for him would have that option, and thus they and their ethnic groups would be subject to almost guaranteed brutal reprisals for what they've done. That's also one of the big downsides of the brutality of the ISIS types, they make many of their enemies fight to the death because they know no quarter will be given, and ISIS will go after their friends and family regardless.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Uberbah]

There were some oddities earlier in the Syrian war where ISIS and America seemed to go out of their way to not conflict with each other

Fixed your autocorrect fail. Just letting you know so you can check your device settings.

he's waged a brutal campaign in his fight for survival

If foreign governments were literally arming, funding and training jihadists and terrorists to overthrow your nation, how hard would you fight to defend it?

As for why Assad would use chemical weapons, there is a twisted bit of dictator and civil war logic that makes it make sense: it ensures that his underlings and army cannot surrender. If he was about to lose, there's a chance that Assad himself could hop on a plane and escape to Iran or Russia

Except that doesn't make sense. It's the opposite of making sense - in fact it's complete dumbfuckery. Why would Assad use gas after the U.S. had been braying for a year about "red lines" and when Syria was winning the war? If he was going to use chemical weapons, why didn't he do it a year beforehand when your CIA backed head choppers and organ eaters were starting to overrun the country? And why would he use chemical weapons the day inspectors arrived in the country? Dumb. Fuck. Er. Eee. Moreso now that even the SecDef that loves shooting Arabs admits there's no evidence Assad used gas.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Uberbah]

ISIL was created from the remnants of Al Qaeda in Iraq; they had nothing to do with Libya.

Weapons from Syria, like the parent poster said. Reading comprehension, it's not just for kids any more...

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Uberbah]

But turning the blame around by questioning unrelated moral issues and make some Orwellian excuse out of it is a quite Russian propaganda technique

That's an American propaganda technique: whining like a bitch whenever someone points out your Biblical levels of hypocrisy. For every single corpse you can lay at Russia's feet, there's a mountain of dead bodies from American actions. So fuck off on your handwrining over motes, when you refuse to deal with the beam in your own eyes.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[GrimSavant]

Really. Really? You think that America went out of its way to avoid ISIS in Syria? You taint the rest of your post by starting off with that, makes it hard to take you at all seriously.

America was reluctant to get involved in Syria in general, because the factions that it wanted to back, the so called "moderate rebels", were basically nonexistent as actual fighting forces on the ground, which was revealed particularly embarrassingly a couple years ago. Not because the US wanted to stay out of the way of ISIS, America only majorly got involved in the war itself at all because of ISIS and its rapid early expansion, particularly into Iraq. The only other faction in Syria that America really has anything close to a good relationship at all with is the Kurds, which itself is a very complicated relationship, given that some of the Kurdish groups are basically old school communists and the Turks, ostensible NATO allies of the US, have been waging their own war against the Kurds on the Turkey-Syria border.

The US clearly wanted Assad to lose, if for no other reason than he's allied with Russia and Iran and has been a thorn in Israel's side due to the Syrian relationship with Hezbollah. But the US spinned its wheels for so long under Obama, not even getting started about Trump, because it didn't know anyone around who it actually wanted to win that had a remote chance of doing so. The typical US allies of the region, Sunni led countries like Turkey, have been less restrained their support for Assad's enemies.

It is sort of curious how hard you are arguing for the Assad side, is it support for him in particular or is it because the Russians or Iranians are fighting on his side? Assuming for the sake of argument that he didn't use sarin gas, its hard to argue that the Syrian government hasn't engaged in plenty of other war crimes. Take your pick of what you would find acceptable from Amnesty International's 2017/2018 report if you don't believe me or think I have an unacceptable US bias, since that doesn't let the US allied side of the war off the hook.

The thing about chemical weapons in general is that they are not particularly effective as weapons of war, they are too uncontrollable and tend to go where the wind takes them, regular explosives are better for destroying military targets. Chemical weapons are weapons of terror, and their use should be viewed through that lens. See the Russian poisoning of the ex-spy in Britain with a Soviet era nerve agent in the past couple of weeks if you want an example of that. Or is that too sore of a topic, as well?

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[guacamole]

Russia has far more to do with arming jihadists in Syria.

That's total BS. Russia has been fighting Islamic terror for two decades now. It is the Obama administration who supplied the TOW anti-tank missiles to the "Free Syrian Army", the entity that consisted pretty much of Al-Queda affiliated groups since a long time ago.

And the middle east is on fire primarily because of USA, sorry my necon "friend". The USA broke Iraq and started the civil war over there, the civil war that spilled into neighboring Syria. The USA was the one that approved the bombing of Libya in 2011, and Libya is on fire right now too. The USA is the country that has been supplying Saudi Arabia with weapons, and continues doing so, even though Saudi Arabia has bombed every water tower, gas station, and an ox cart in Yemen, resulting in a widespread famine and the spread of cholera, but strangely according to you none of this is USA fault. It's apparently primarily Russia's fault. Please. Why not just shut up when there is nothing NOTHING that supports your argument.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[guacamole]

-Iskander is a short-range missile.

-How can you call Russia, Iran, and Turkey top three meddlers if USA and its allies are occupying a quarter of territory of Syria right now.

- Russia and Iran are not the "meddlers" in Syria. Their presence is legitimized by the request of Syrian government, you know, the one that's holding the seat at UN.

-On the other hand, Turkey and USA are occupying the Syrian territory completely illegally because the Syrian government never requested or allowed the presence of their troops on its territory.

Re: Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[guacamole]

I don't need to explain that to an idiot.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[najajomo]

@Oswald McWeany: "Putin is dangerous because he doesn't play by the rules"

Total bullshit !!

Re: Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Brockmire]

Echo "thirteen Russians" >> possible_band_names.txt

Re: Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Brockmire]

No, that's attacking guacamole's credibility.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Uberbah]

Oh, the dumbfuck hypocrisy. How many countries has Putin invaded on the opposite side of the planet from him? How many thousands of people has he kidnapped and tortured? Has he allowed the Russian military to arrest anyone on Russian soil and throw them in prison indefinitely?

Fuck. Off.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Uberbah]

Nah, you can still go fuck yourself. You're treating a conspiracy theory with no evidence behind it as being as indisputable as the American invasion of Iraq or penchant for bombing weddings, funerals and hospitals. You whine like a little bitch about $5,000 in Facebook ads when there's an American official on video - in front of banners for western oil companies - bragging about spending $5,000,000,000 to subvert Ukraine's democracy.

Few things as annoying as bed wetting tough guy hypocrites.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Uberbah]

Really. Really? You think that America went out of its way to avoid ISIS in Syria? You taint the rest of your post by starting off with that, makes it hard to take you at all seriously.

Your ignorance of the subject is not my problem. Yes, the United States has been arming, training and funding both ISIS and Al Queda to overthrow Assad. From the beginning.

America was reluctant to get involved in Syria in general

America was plotting to overthrow Syria before the Arab Spring was a thing. Again, remedial knowledge of the subject.

if for no other reason than he's allied with Russia and Iran and has been a thorn in Israel's side due to the illegal occupation of the Golan Heights after the 1967 war which was started by Israel

FTFY.

It is sort of curious how hard you are arguing for the Assad side

Why are you arguing for the Al Qaeda head choppers and the ISIS organ eating side? Because you want to see another Arab country turned into a third world hell hole like Iraq and Libya so American neocons can jizz themselves?

its hard to argue that the Syrian government hasn't engaged in plenty of other war crimes

How hard would you fight if if was your country being overrun by foreign-funded terrorists who wanted to chop off your head or cut out your heart and eat it?

The thing about chemical weapons in general is that they are not particularly effective as weapons of war

Then WTF would Assad use them in areas packed with his own people and military, when he was winning the war, on the day inspectors arrived. If your bullshit detector is completely and utterly non-functional....I have some oceanfront property in Idaho I would love to sell you at a great discount.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Uberbah]

Making it all about some fallacious hypocrisy that does not really exist.

Hypocrisy that doesn't exist? Now you're just engaging in willful dumbfuckery. The dozens of democracies overthrown by the United States alone makes you a liar of Biblical proportions.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Uberbah]

Or let me put it into some other terms

And now let me fix those terms. You're not even a Katy Perry fan but a child-molesting Catholic priest is attacking her for promoting homosexuality. Perry's really not your thing, but you ask the priest how he can throw stones at "kissed a girl" when he's got a long track record of child molestation.

The priest responds by screaming "whataboutery" and claiming victory. You ask the priest if he could at least take his dick out of that 12 year old's ass while he's talking. He then starts screaming "to quoque" and stomping his feet in a hissy. America == that priest.

The problem here is probalby your own narrow mind. When someone attacks your beloved Russia you must go on the defence.

Your problems is that you're engaging in a base logical fallacy, and speaking to someone who has a functioning bullshit detector. I called out Birthers for doing the same thing Russiagaters are doing now - engaging in fact-free hysterics to take down a politician they didn't like. That doesn't mean I support Obama's persecution of whisteblowers or starting wars without authorization from Congress.

Iraq war skeptics were also smeared as Saddam supporters back in 2002. SSDD.

You see, one quality if the Western philosophy is that it is capable of self criticism.

Then the United States would be paying more attention to the fact that it has the largest prison population in the world when accusing countries from China to Iran of being authoritarian states.

Re:Putin hiding behind nuclear weapons

[Uberbah]

Why would I need to attack the priest's morality?

----> the analogy

----> your head

The point is the mindblowing hypocrisy of Western Exceptionalists when throwing stones from within their glass houses, at other countries for "human rights". Which means it's all western propaganda.

Re:Misplaced priorities

[SirSlud]

It's a pretty lousy country where you only have one person who can do one thing at a time.

Russians have been covertly meddling for decades

[mi]

USSR/Russia have been meddling with foreign politics for decades. The entire "peace" movement was financed by the evil empire, financing everything "anti-war" in the West (while themselves invading neighbors like Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Afghanistan).

Similarly, they also funded "Black liberation".

There is even good evidence of Senator Edward Kennedy offering future cooperation in exchange for Soviet help in getting himself elected... Certainly more evidence of (attempted) collusion, than there ever was against Trump...

But none of it was important, until Trump won the elections — and it became crucially important for the swamp to, if not impeach, keep him occupied and thus less dangerous to the crocodiles.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[iggymanz]

oh, and the USA hasn't meddled with foreign powers, causing hundreds of thousands of deaths, maimings, starvation?

the stuff you link is mild in comparision

More proof the Republicans want to start another..

[greenwow]

cold war. Rmoney showed their hand in his debate with Obama when he called Russia our biggest threat. He accidentally revealed their plan.

Re:MAGFO

[Anonymous Coward]

Make Russia Great For Once

Too hard. Since Putin can't make Russia great, but he'll settle for fucking up the rest of the world, just so Russia doesn't seem so bad in comparison.

Truth is stranger than fiction; you can't make this shit up. I'll point to https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=593812851 but I know the Conservitards and Nazis won't be bothered to read or, or if they do, they deny it.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[mi]

oh, and the USA hasn't meddled with foreign powers

We probably have.

causing hundreds of thousands of deaths, maimings, starvation?

Nope, we have not caused any of this. Notably, you aren't even attempting to cite examples.

the stuff you link is mild in comparision

My point in this thread was not to accuse Russia, but to expose the hypocrisy of anti-Trumpers.

Re:Misplaced priorities

[Anonymous Coward]

you can actually place cables underground, mitigating most weather-related risk.

Re:Misplaced priorities

[Anonymous Coward]

You can also have your utility bills skyrocket because putting cables underground isn't fucking cheap.

Re:Misplaced priorities

[Mr D from 63]

"Targeting" and "attacking" the grid and grid systems is not 'hacking' the grid. It is attempted hacking. The articles talk about targeting , not successful hacks. The headline is misleading, as intended I suppose.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[guacamole]

US has meddled in the elections and politics of other countries for decades, including 1996 Russian presidential elections, the Georgian politics during and after the Rose Revolution of 2003, Ukrainian politics and elections of 2003 and during and after the 2013-14 constitutional crisis. Not to mention the open aggression against the governments of Iraq (2003), Libya (2011), and Syria (2011 through now).

Stupid question - WHY??

[filesiteguy]

Since we all went to Berlin in early November '89 to start hammering at the Wall, I thought the whole East vs. West problem was solved. With Russia supposedly no longer our enemy, and the US not working to isolate them via Truman's Doctrine, why would they want to mess with the USA? Wouldn't it be more productive to have them mess with a third-world country?

Re:Stupid question - WHY??

[Anonymous Coward]

>With Russia supposedly no longer our enemy,

This was not, and is not the case. Republican sentiment was very anti-Russian prior to Trump. Russia doesn't have real elections anymore, Putin openly murders people in other countries, and on and on. If we condone these kind of things, we're just as bad.

Re: Stupid question - WHY??

[c6gunner]

And how did him not being president prevent him from fighting, exactly?

Re:Stupid question - WHY??

[AHuxley]

With all that criminal malware floating around "cyber" code litter is going to keep giving mil/gov budget growth.

Better question

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this imply that the energy grid is on a network that could be accessed via the Internet? If that's the case, why, and why is it necessary?

If society wants everything connected online and there's going to be prices to pay. I guess the prospect of mass surveillance and control over the population is too big of a payoff for them. What a fucked up world we live in.

Re:Better question

[AHuxley]

AC the US connected its grids to the wide open internet to replace union workers on site.
No union workers, no union to deal with. No wages to increase. No union negotiations.
Thats money back into profits and as shareholder value by using the internet as a network using fewer staff to watch over a lot of different sites 24/7.
A few engineers can watch over sites and send in contractors when a computer system finds a problem.
The bad part was the networking and automation was not done with site secure, encrypted hardened networks.
The free "internet" was used to save on having to think about and fund special new networks.
So all that data is moving around the big wide internet from vital US computer networks that cant and won't be updated.
Any advance new criminal malware that searches the depths of the internet for existing problems finds old networks and does what average criminal malware does.
The US security forces don't suggest the US brands secure their unencrypted, plain text, internet facing, wide open industrial networks.
The US security forces spin common criminal malware found all over the net as some super advanced, mythical nation level code litter.
The US grants new funding to its cyber forces to study the malware. The US energy grid is left wide open as cyber bait so more criminal malware can be found in the wild to tell the media about.
More malware found is more over time.
Nice for the over time and contractor budget growth.

Re: Better question

[Reverend Green]

Years ago, at a social event in San Francisco, I met someone gentlemen who were working to secure the critical power infrastructure from cyber attack. I don't recall the name of their company, not that it matters - they were contractors for Uncle Sam.

They seemed competent. One had even read Amory Lovins' excellent and very relevant book "Brittle Power". Of course it was a social event, we didn't discuss work in great detail.

So it seems to me that fedgov does care, at least a little bit, about securing the power grid.

Re:Better question

[swb]

I just worked on a project at a power plant. All the plant operation systems are air gapped from the Internet. That being said, the "business network" used all over the plant for non-plant operations is connected to the internet and it's not hard to see how the two networks could be bridged, accidentally or via "nearline" methods with USB sticks, connecting a plant system to the internet temporarily for updates and so on.

I think for the separation to be truly effective you almost need spy agency level protocols and facility design to be part of it. At this plant, there's only one wiring plant and one set of network closets which houses switching for both plant and business networks, so accidental cross-connects are possible. Plus the control room has business network jacks and PCs which makes it possible for thumb drives to easily move between systems. And of course internet-connected wifi is plant-wide.

I think to improve air gapping, there should be totally distinct wiring plants and network closets and any area critical for plant function shouldn't have any internet connection cabling at all and no wifi, either. You can't stop LTE, but they could possibly ban via policy even having cell phones in critical plant areas.

TL;DR -- plants do air gap, but it's kind of sloppy and presents a lot of opportunity and accidental cross-connection hazards.

Re:Better question

[david_thornley]

Why? Because it was easy, and nobody paid attention to security. Look up SCADA. There were never any serious plans to make it secure, as far as I can tell. This didn't really matter as long as SCADA communications were off the Internet, but a lot of them are.

It wasn't any desire for surveillance, it was a desire to get stuff up and running before the engineer was fired, with no thought to security.

Whataboutism at it's best

[Comboman]

You want someone arrested for a natural disaster? There's a big difference between losing power in a storm and someone INTENTIONALLY trying to disable the power system.

And for your second "point", if someone robs your house, that's illegal and they should be arrested. It doesn't matter if you had the latest security system, or no security system. Blaming the victim is what criminals do to excuse their own horrible behavior.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[ilguido]

causing hundreds of thousands of deaths, maimings, starvation?

Nope, we have not caused any of this. Notably, you aren't even attempting to cite examples.

Libya, Syria, Honduras and Yemen are just the latest examples I can recollect for the past five years or so.

Re:Misplaced priorities

[angel'o'sphere]

Strictly speaking it is not hacking at all, but cracking.

OT: Blaming US for deaths in shitholes

[mi]

Libya, Syria, Honduras and Yemen are just the latest examples

Please, explain, how the US is responsible for hundreds of thousands of dead and maimed in these countries. You'll need to show, how none of the carnage would've happened, were it not for the US.

Re:OT: Blaming US for deaths in shitholes

[sheph]

It's a common logical fallacy. It happened after we were there. Therefore, it must have been because of us. Never mind that the whole reason we went there in the first place was to stabilize the ongoing conflict.

Re:OT: Blaming US for deaths in shitholes

[mrclevesque]

You need to show why the carnage caused by US interventions would have happened anyway.

Re:OT: Blaming US for deaths in shitholes

[mi]

I'm not even sure, what "carnage" he was talking about... The burden of proof is on the one making the accusation.

Re:OT: Blaming US for deaths in shitholes

[mrclevesque]

"The burden of proof is on the one making the accusation"

Sure and they can start with simple data like the number of bombs falling from the sky, and the number civilians dying, which both went way way up after the US invasion and occupation of both Afghanistan and Iraq.

Re:OT: Blaming US for deaths in shitholes

[iggymanz]

you're confused, we destabilized the region first.

We could start talking about Saddam was our buddy and we supplied him with billions of dollars for dual use tech to make WMD and gas people. And it went downhill from there.

the USA has the blood of hundreds of thousands on its hands, attacking those who did not attack us for power and profit.

Re:OT: Blaming US for deaths in shitholes

[mi]

Yes, they can. But they haven't. And neither have you — despite posting here several times. I'm now convinced, you are unable to make a coherent accusation and am unlikely to respond to your future posts.

Re:OT: Blaming US for deaths in shitholes

[Capsaicin]

The burden of proof is on the one making the accusation.

Except where, as here, res ipsa loquitur applies: The regional instability is an obvious after effect of Western intervention, specifically the removal of Saddam Hussein and the Bathists from power in Iraq and the dismantling of the repressive apparatus of the Iraqi state. It failed to eventuate under Hussein's oppressive and murderous regime, which had managed to keep longstanding ethnic and religious conflicts and forces at bay for decades (which is, of course, why it had previously been US foreign policy to support it notwithstanding the nastiness of the regime). Once the damn was blown the waters poured forth, which waters then wetted the Arab spring. I'd need to show, how none of the water would've leaked out, were it not for the damn being blown, do I hear you say?

That being said, iggymanz' original reply to you is a canonical example of the tu quoque fallacy, for which, under my prospective dictatorial regime of social media censorship ;), it and all subsequent replies (including even this) should have been cast into oblivion.

Re:OT: Blaming US for deaths in shitholes

[david_thornley]

Add Iraq to the list of countries, and you've got hundreds of thousands.

Re:OT: Blaming US for deaths in shitholes

[mrclevesque]

"Yes, they can."

I agree, it isn't hard to find solid references, just look up the two data points I mentioned. Go to a library and ask for help if you need to.

"am unlikely to respond to your future posts."

No problem.

Re:OT: Blaming US for deaths in shitholes

[Capsaicin]

Well that's embarrassing. :)

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[angel'o'sphere]

You missed the Korea, Vietnam and two Iraq wars.
You missed the disaster in South America.

You have no clue about the horrible things your country did.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[mi]

US has meddled in the elections and politics of other countries for decades

Sure. It is perfectly natural for a happy, prosperous country to advocate its own way of life.

Not to mention the open aggression against the governments of Iraq

"Open" is quite the opposite of "covert", is not it? And covert meddling is the subject of this thread.

Have you even heard of the CIA before?

[Anonymous Coward]

>> causing hundreds of thousands of deaths, maimings, starvation?
> Nope, we have not caused any of this. Notably, you aren't even attempting to cite examples.

Have you never even heard of us deposing the democratically elected ruler of Iran?

Are you even remotely aware of what the CIA has done in South America?

Here's the Washington Post calling that out. Here's them listing 72 times we did that. And this is just the Washington Post, one of the papers most critical of Trump. Here are 7 governments we've overthrown.

Please read some history. There's a ton of stuff they never bother to mention in history class for some reason...

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[mi]

You missed the Korea, Vietnam

It is thanks to America, that millions of South Koreans enjoy the prosperity and the human rights of Capitalism. That the millions of North Koreans and Vietnamese do not have these, is despite rather than because of anything we've done.

You missed the disaster in South America.

No, I didn't. The "horrible dictator" of Chile (US-sponsored) left his country the number one economy in the South America. While Russian-sponsored Chavez and Catro have ruined theirs.

You have no clue about the horrible things your country did.

Maybe, that's because we didn't...

Re:That Robert Meuller?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, except Robert Meuller was with the FBI and did none of those things.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[loonycyborg]

Both Eltsin and Putin were little more than US placed viceroys in practice. Putin only recently started to show any sort of irreverence to his overlords kinda like False Dmitry I. But make no mistake, it's not about Russia, it's about clowns in US trying to make an external scapegoat for their own mistakes.

Maybe now . .

[hduff]

Maybe now Russia will release the video of Trump with that teenage hooker we've heard about . . .

Re:Better question or net access over power

[WillAffleckUW]

Most electrical grids carry signals, some provide internet service over the power lines too.

If it's got a signal and energy and it changes, it can transmit information.

Did you think there were magic gremlins adjusting systems?

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[mi]

Now we have co-ordinated efforts

Are you claiming, the earlier efforts were not coordinated? That citizens of USSR could afford to spend millions of dollars on their own, without government providing the funds and coordinating the expenditures?

not to propagandize or support their ideology, but to spread hatred and division through deception

They've been doing that. Do you honestly think, USSR gave a rat's ass about the rights of Blacks in the USA? Of course, not. They sponsored "Black liberation" to spread hatred and division.

There are Russian trolls posing as Trump supporters, posing as diehard Hillary supporters

Yes, I do agree, that, whereas USSR of old was primarily supporting foreign Leftists, today's Russia is "omnivorous" — feeding German Leftists and France's Le Penn from the same purse.

It does tell us a few things about Russian leadership today (and their lack of principles), but my point was not about them, but about us here.

If collusion — such as coordinating one's political efforts with a foreign power, receiving money from same, promising the enemy quid pro quo — is wrong, then why is not "Black Panther" a dirty label, and Senator Kennedy's memory not a disgrace?

Putin's gotta go

[Anonymous Coward]

Putin needs to be removed in a way that sends a clear message to jackasses everywhere for generations to come.

Re:Putin's gotta go

[Nikkos]

What is this stupidity? Removing Putin would be like removing any other first-world leader - instant world-ending war.

I'm so tired of these fools who can't seem to get it through their head that Russia is a global military superpower. That Russia is NOT a cowardly bully. Cowardly bullies act out because of their own insecurities and lack of agency.

Putin has no insecurities. He has successfully moved his country forward. Crime rates, wages, standards of living are all significantly better than when he first took control of Russia. However questionably and brutally he did it, the simple fact is that he was successful, and the Russian people are by and large pragmatic and results-orientated. Their lives are better, Putin is responsible for that. End of Story.

Russia has no lack of agency. Russia can hit a button and kill us all.

Russia simply wants to no longer be treated like some second or third-class citizen in the world. You don't like that they fucked with our politics? Too bad. We've been fucking with theirs for YEARS. You don't like that they hacked us? What the fuck do you think the US has been doing?

People should go watch Oliver Stone's Putin interviews. While the whole anti-Russia crowd whined about Stone being some fawning Putin sycophant, what was ignored is that 80% of what Putin said was absolutely correct. NATO expansions, US treaty violations, outright abuses of the openness that Russia had to America in the post-soviet years. The US had the opportunity to bring Russia into the 21st century as friends, allies, and economic partners. Instead the old cold-war guard kept kicking the downed dog. Is it any wonder that now that the dog has healed and can bite back, it is?

Russia can now do to us as we've been doing to them - perhaps they're even better at it.

Anyone with a real global outlook can see that Russia is not the real problem, China is. China is far more totalitarian, far more 'evil', far more repressive, more racist, more sexist, and has far grander plans of world domination - and far further along on those plans. Russia is a potential solution to a huge future problem, but the US can't pull its backwards-looking head out of its indignant idealistic ass to see it.

The US policy has been one of containing Russia and keeping it econmically depressed, while letting China grow into a beast that is now weilding massive political and economic influence within our own country to our detriment.

Re: Putin's gotta go

[Brockmire]

Seize his offshore money. $200 billion according to some estimates.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[ljw1004]

But none of it was important, until Trump won the elections

Why do you say that? Obama "was deeply concerned... he wanted the entire intelligence community all over this." https://www.washingtonpost.com...

Obama’s approach often seemed reducible to a single imperative: Don’t make things worse. As brazen as the Russian attacks on the election seemed, Obama and his top advisers feared that things could get far worse. They were concerned that any pre-election response could provoke an escalation from Putin.

...the principals and their deputies had by late September all but ruled out any pre-election retaliation against Moscow. They feared that any action would be seen as political and that Putin, motivated by a seething resentment of Clinton, was prepared to go beyond fake news and email dumps... "Our primary interest in August, September and October was to prevent them from doing the max they could do," said a senior administration official. “We made the judgment that we had ample time after the election, regardless of outcome, for punitive measures."

So there it is: this was considered crucially important before the election, but Obama's administration made the careful deliberate decision to delay action until after the election so as not to make it partisan and to avoid worse harm.

oligarchs for everyone!

[Thud457]

well, that's one way the CoDominium could be established.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[Antiocheian]

Sure. It is perfectly natural for a happy, prosperous country to advocate its own way of life.

You mean Russia ?

Re:US Sponsored? Not Likely.

[mi]

South Koreans enjoy the highest suicide rate in the world

A demonstrable lie. South Korea has the 10th suicide rate in the world, not the 1st.

That the millions of North Koreans who died to American bombing campaigns

Another demonstrable lie. The total number of North Korean military casualties (dead and wounded combined) was well under 1 million, plus 1.5 million of perished civilians. Can't blame all of those deaths on Americans either. We should've finished that job, however — with nukes, if necessary. By "giving peace a chance", we robbed actual millions of North Koreans — several entire generations and counting — of the same prosperity and freedoms, that the South now takes for granted.

There is nothing inherently wrong with Koreans — had they not been divided by the frozen conflict, they could've been as rich as Japan (which we did nuke into surrender)...

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[Anonymous Coward]

Pro tip: in English it's spelled "Yeltsin".

Seriously, is this the level of training you IRA goons get? Or are you just an amateur?

Re:US Sponsored? Not Likely.

[iggymanz]

It's thanks to America, that millions of North Koreans live in poverty, the ones that survived that is.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[harrkev]

Russia could have interfered in the elections in a way that the Democrats would approve of. Just put a million Russians on boats and send them to California. California would have been happy to let them vote. Then, the Russians get back on the boats and go home.

Re:Misplaced priorities

[TechyImmigrant]

Strictly speaking it is not hacking at all, but cracking.

Indeed. I wondered why the government was punishing people for diligently solving problems.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[aod7br7932]

Put Brazil 2014, and the entire latin/central america in this list, for the last 50 years. Christ they even funded an INVASION of CUBA

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[loonycyborg]

I don't care how their names are spelled in Barbarian. Just recall your puppet rulers back already.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[coliverhb]

More clearly; They were afraid that any interference would potentially cost Hillary the presidency, and any interference from the Executive branch could be spun as corruption or undue influence (The swamp protecting one of their own.)

So they waited until after the election - after Hillary won - and they could pursue action through her administration.

Worked out well, didn't it? Never in their wildest dreams did they think Donald would win, and they didn't consider it as a real possibility and here we are.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[angel'o'sphere]

It is thanks to America, that millions of South Koreans enjoy the prosperity and the human rights of Capitalism.
Do you really think that? Then you are an idiot.

Look at Vietnam e.g. it is united and has capitalism, and capitalism is probably the worst economy system we have.

You missed the disaster in South America.

No, I didn't. The "horrible dictator" of Chile (US-sponsored) left his country the number one economy in the South America.

After killing a million. Killing the rightful elected government. And "number on economy" my ass. I don't really want to know where you get your news from.
What about the rest of South America? Hu?

The point of this threat is: how many innocent america has killed. And you are not far behind Russia or China. If you think capitalism is better than the European controlled markets then stick in your backyard, have fun there. And avoid disclosing that you are an american if you ever are tempted to visit a country you tried to bomb back into the stone age.

Re:Misplaced priorities

[lenski]

Not necessarily, given even a little bit of planning.

A house we just sold in a nearby suburb (Central Ohio, northwest side) that we had been renting out is in an area where services (electric power, gas, cable, communication) are all underground. The house is not a McMansion, more of a step up from a "starter home" and it's not in a fancy rich neighborhood. Reasonable property taxes too. (The point about reasonable property taxes not directly relevant, but supports the argument that underground service is not the exclusive domain of expensive/wealthy neighborhoods.)

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[another_twilight]

Meddled in foreign powers is a fairly broad accusation, and devoid of any analysis of positive vs negative

Meddling is meddling. You can try to justify it by claiming that it was for a noble purpose, but that's ignoring the fact that it's still meddling

Wasn't starvation happening under Sadam as well, how is it we get the blame for that?

When you got involved. Until then, the starvation was Saddam's fault. Once you stepped in, it became yours. Or do you only want to claim responsibility when you succeed?

Not everyone in Iraq was sorry to see Sadam go

That doesn't mean it wasn't meddling, nor that you stop being responsible for the deaths you caused directly, indirectly or as a result of removing the government and infrastructure that lead to yet more deaths. But hey, as you say 'mission accomplished'.

I might add that the poor execution was not for lack of trying. It was more a lack of deep appreciation for the task at hand by the generals chosen to do the job.

Incompetence doesn't absolve responsibility, and no one outside of primary school cares how hard you tried or what you really meant to do.

---

To be clear, I'm a citizen of a country that sent troops to Iraq. I protested in most of the fashions legally available to me, but as it was my government who directed troops into Iraq, I am, ultimately, responsible for the deaths of those people. I take the privilege of voting seriously and understand that when a soldier obeys a legal order, that the authority traces back to the government and hence to those who could vote. Not just those who did vote, nor just those who voted for that government (I didn't). I am disgusted at the orders my government gave. I consider it a violation of the trust of those who have sworn an oath to obey. I am ashamed at being party to the invasion of a sovereign nation and I consider the death and suffering to be unacceptable.

No matter what justification you use.

People died because our governments gave orders to our soldiers. That makes _us_ responsible, and no amount of hand wringing will change that.

using Big Words when you don't know WTF they mean

[Uberbah]

His post not only isn't "whatabboutery", it's nothing close to it.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[dunkelfalke]

Nur zur Info, mi ist ein ukrainischer Neurechter, der nach Amiland gezogen ist, ist also nur ein Moechtegernami. Und ein Depp ist er sowieso.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[GrimSavant]

Not really helping your case that you are calling the language that you are currently using Barbarian. That's some amateur hour propaganda, right there.

Yet more neocon russian bogeyman waffle ..

[najajomo]

How did it come to this, that slashdot is reduced to repeating US neocon waffle on a technology site.

Why are these things even connected on the net?

[RFjunkie]

https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/a... Why are US utilities, businesses and government connecting -anything- important to the intertubes? If you have staff on site, why would you connect important industrial/process controls and information, including government/military stuff, to the net, where evil people can access them? Even more, why don't we see any explanation of this issue? We sanction Russia and China for invading our compooter systems, but nobody asks why these systems are accessible offsite. Even power generation systems can be operated, including frequency control, without a physical connection to the net. Of course, my engineering degree is rusty and dusty, I'm retired and old, so I may be totally wrong, but if that's the case, I hope someone below might address this issue. I know no better place to find the right people to ask this.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[angel'o'sphere]

Gut zu Wissen :D

Ich kenne leider ein paar von der Sorte, die jetzt in Deutschland leben, und z.B. absolute Türkenhasser sind ... unglaublich.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[loonycyborg]

What case? I don't advocate any case. Just communicating what I'm feeling. Not everything follows some narrative. And the fact that I'm getting compared to IRA just for sharing what I think convinces me that all this is bullshit. Because I do know that I'm just yet another person and not some imaginary shady paid troll. Of course what I think doesn't matter to you but who cares..

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[david_thornley]

I checked how his name is spelled in Cyrillic. "Yeltsin" is how it reads, not "Eltsin". (The "i" in both cases should be pronounced like "ee" in English.)

If you were a halfway competent Russian troll, you'd know that.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[david_thornley]

The Bay of Pigs invasion was done mostly by Cuban exiles, funded, armed, trained, and organized by the US. It's a mess, but it's at least partly civil war and not a US invasion.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[david_thornley]

You're missing the point. Everybody does propaganda. That's not a problem. Giving money to groups in other countries is also common. Interfering with elections directly is the problem.

Could you give me an actual pointer to a claim that Ted Kennedy got help from Russia/the USSR? Your cite is useless in tracking that down.

Considering how blacks were treated before the Civil Rights movement, you're going to have a hard sell to convince me that black liberation actually increased hate and division in the US.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[david_thornley]

That would have approximately no effect. A temporary move like that, even if California let them vote, would not increase California's representation in Congress or its electoral votes.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[harrkev]

But might be enough to swing the electoral vote a different way.

Anyways, it was a joke.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[GrimSavant]

Idiomatic speech is difficult, isn't it? Harder than translating and transliterating proper nouns, and it should be a lot harder than not outing yourself as a troll by hurling an epithet at the language that you are using. I hope for your sake that you aren't getting paid for posting this nonsense, because you'll need to find another job if you are.

Calling Putin a viceroy is pretty rich though, I hadn't heard that one before.

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[dunkelfalke]

mi ist vor Allem ein Russenhasser. Aber sowas von.

Why is this stuff accessible from the intertubes?

[RFjunkie]

These power plants, industries, universities, government compooters, etc. are in places that have people present always. Yes, I understand that power generation facilities have to regulate their operations to maintain frequency standards, so they need to know what the rest of the system's doing and work accordingly. Even that function doesn't need to be connected to the 'net, they can do this manually. There's very little they need to do that requires internet connections. I just fail to understand why things like power plant SCADA operations are connected to the net. It's obvious that's not a good thing, having such critical compooter systems connected, potentially open to a smart person/group with nefarious intentions. Can't these things be done by the people that are onsite? What are the compelling reasons they're connected? I've asked many times, many places, since this issue became a thing, and nowhere has anyone responded. Sure, the folks that don't know should stay quiet, but I don't see anyone else asking this question, and nobody talks about the issue. They complain, they punish Russia(too little too late, thanks Trump/RepubliKKKans), but these critical compooter systems remain connected. Why?

Re:Russians have been covertly meddling for decade

[loonycyborg]

Nitpicking at grammar mistakes is the most boring, half-hearted kind of trolling. Probably you actually are paid for this, since coming up with something creative is more than your job's worth. Yet I came up with non-boring reply, even though you don't deserve it.