Ask Slashdot: What Does Your Data Mean To Google? (google.com)

shanen writes: Due to the recent kerfuffles, I decided to try again to see what Google had on me. This time I succeeded and failed, in contrast to the previous pure failures. Yes, I did find Google's takeout website and downloaded all of "my data," but no, it means nothing to me. Here are a few sub-questions I couldn't answer:

1. Much more data than I ever created, so where did the rest come from?
2. How does the data relate to the characteristic vector that Google uses to characterize me?
3. What tools do Googlers use to make sense of the data?

Lots more questions, but those are the ones that are most bugging me right now. Question 2. is probably heaviest among them, since I've read that the vector has 700 dimensions... So do you have any answers? Or better questions? Or your own takeout experiences to share? Oh yeah, one more thing. Based on my own troubled experience with the download process, it is clear that Google doesn't really want us to download the so-called "our own" data. My Question 4. is now: "What is Google hiding about me from me?"

Comments

Et tu , Btute?

[Camarillo Brillo]

My question is ; who else is getting data about me from Google? Does Google sell it outright? I suppose that is their business model, but it would be nice to know how my metadata is distributed.

Re: Et tu , Btute?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, selling the data outright is stupid. It cuts you out of the business model.

This is why you get targeted ads on i devices and Cook says they don't sell your info. Google and Apl never actually sell the information, but simply serve the ad they determine as "targeted" towards you.

Re:Et tu , Btute?

[PolygamousRanchKid]

Does Google sell it outright?

The German postal service, Deutsche Post, was just caught selling data to political parties, which was used in election campaign targeting.

Deutsche Post responded with the claim that they were not selling the data . . . merely "renting it out" . . .

Mega giga lame.

Re:Et tu , Btute?

[Dutch Gun]

Does Google sell it outright?

As far as I understand it, Google sells access to your data in the form of targeted ads, not your data itself, because it's so incredibly valuable. And that access is more in the form of "I want to show ads to this demographic", so probably nothing that could personally identify anyone. In some ways, I suppose that's lucky for us, because they have a very big financial incentive to guard against leaking it.

Then again, Facebook let all their data escape, so...

Re:Et tu , Btute?

[shanen]

If the google is selling it, I suspect they only sell aggregated forms. From my perspective as part of the product, I would actually like control over the degree of aggregation. I'm not too concerned if something about me is included as part of the average for all the google users within a state or even a large city, but I'd start getting concerned if they are selling parts of my data as parts of extremely small groups such as the people who live in my neighborhood or even the level of an apartment building.

Perhaps your question could be inverted into the form: What kinds of data would cause the google to report your data to the local police?

Re:Et tu , Btute?

[shanen]

But because the google doesn't share the usage information or any of the profits with us, then we have no incentive to provide accurate data to the google. Even more seriously, if the data contains flaws and errors that reduce the value of the data when the google is trying to sell it, we can't correct those problems.

Your topic is actually related to the extended questions I added a few minutes ago, especially the last two.

Re: Et tu , Btute?

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell is your problem? I don't see anything wrong with what that AC said. It's all pretty accurate. Google and Apple KEEP your data and then they allow people to sell ads and they use that data to direct those ads to the type of people the advertisers select. Maybe they sell some aggregated data but I can't imagine them giving up the golden goose for anything.

As to where the extra data came from. Did you look at what was there? That should have shown you what it was. Your Google Now recordings or something? I don't know. I don't know why you think Google only has data that you created. All of their services will share information which helps build a larger profile. Then they probably do something similar to the Facebook "shadow profile" where they accumulate side-channel information into a more comprehensive way to target you. But I'd be kind of surprised if that was in the data they gave you.

Re:Et tu , Btute?

[thegarbz]

Does Google sell it outright?

Does Coca-cola sell you its recipe?

Your data is the only thing Google has to derive value. They sell *you* specifically access to you in a wide variety of ways through many APIs targetting many delivery mechanisms. But the data is what gives them the market leverage they have.

To me that makes the submission all the more stupid. It's kind of like saying:
"Coca-Cola prints the ingredients list on the side of the bottle, but it doesn't taste like coke when I mix it together, does anyone know what recipe they use?"

Re:Et tu , Btute?

[Anonymous Coward]

Deutsche Post responded with the claim that they were not selling the data . . . merely "renting it out" . . .

So, a bit like Budweiser, then?

Re:Et tu , Btute?

[Dutch Gun]

Even more seriously, if the data contains flaws and errors that reduce the value of the data when the google is trying to sell it, we can't correct those problems.

Is that actually a problem for us, rather than Google? I mean, what they general sell is targeted advertising. Why would you or I really care if their data is correct or not? I don't really understand that aspect of your question.

The data that credit-reporting companies have on us impacts our daily lives about 1000x more than what Google collects about me, because they draw conclusions about that data (a credit score) that have very definite real-world effects on me in the form of loan rates or even credit approval / denial.

Re:Et tu , Btute?

[Anonymous Coward]

That may be fine for corporations, but what about governments who demand access to this data for national security? You think the NSA doesn't have instant access to search this information?

Re:Et tu , Btute?

[shanen]

Hmm... Again I think of it from the perspective of more freedom is better, which goes back to the ideas of competition. If the google had a real competitor and that competitor offered similar or better services, then the value of my data within that system does become a concern for me as well. If bad data lowers the value and income of the service provider, then they have to offer fewer services.

However I admit that if the google were part of a competitive situation, I'd be shopping on a different tradeoff. Partly I'd want a piece of the pie, but I think I'd be more concerned with self knowledge. As things stand now, the google offers only a tiny bit of the pie, mostly in lottery form, and completely obscures the kind of information I'm most interested in. Maybe the google knows 'I can't stand the truth'?

By the way, do you know what the "Btute" in the Subject: is about? Just a typo?

Re:Et tu , Btute?

[Dutch Gun]

I certainly understand that sentiment, but I suppose I've had to force myself to make peace with some of the realities of my data being collected and used online, and the tradeoffs it entails, both positive and negative.

For instance, Amazon is astoundingly convenient for me. Other than grocery shopping (and I could probably use them for that too, but I like my local QFC), I order almost everything I need online. The downside, obviously, is that a single online entity knows about ALL my shopping and reading habits. Other than a certain creep factor, is that a terrible thing? Forced to look objectively at it, I'm hard pressed to find a reason why that's so bad.

For Google, I suppose they have more sensitive information on me, based on what I've searched for in the past. They apparently store searches for 18 months. I'd be slightly embarrassed if they released that information to the public, I suppose. Let's face it - most people probably would have the same reaction, because we all search for stupid or private stuff at one time or another, and it's a bit of a pain to always remember to use incognito mode. So, at this point, I guess I just have to hope they're taking good care of that information. I'm not sure what more we can realistically do.

And "btute" is undoubtedly a typo.

Re:Et tu , Btute?

[shanen]

Actually, I stopped using Amazon more than 15 years ago. I used it twice, and it was satisfactory both times, but the ongoing pursuit of additional sales caused me to reject further dealings with the company. I'm not sure if it was the greed or the insult or the threat. Greed should be obvious. Amazon wants more sales. The insult is assuming that I'm so similar to other people that they strongly expect me to buy the same things in the same patterns. Remember at that time they were only fishing with two samples of my actual preferences. The threat is that they might be right.

Mostly we seem to be in agreement, though we are obviously drawing the lines in different places.

Such wowe

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow they invented LG G Flex, such innovation such wow

In exchange for

[Trax3001BBS]

Google maps, Google Earth, keeping their word (My email account) and the rest they offer us.

Re:In exchange for

[Anonymous Coward]

Google maps, Google Earth, keeping their word (My email account) and the rest they offer us.

So? If they're pulling facebook shit or worse, I don't think it's worth it.

Re:In exchange for

[shanen]

Uh? What question are you trying to answer? And how does that question relate to any of the questions I posed? At first I thought you were trying to say something about derived data, but now I have no idea...

However, one of the categories of data I was looking for was data about me from other sources. For example, in terms of marketing my data to the advertisers, such external data as my credit history would seem to be highly relevant. Perhaps I can find my credit report somewhere in there?

In the original questions I left out one of the peculiarities I already discovered. A lot of "my" data that the google sent me was actually links to other places where I had posted things. In other cases the links seemed completely unrelated to me, as with a Google Play app to some game I don't believe I've ever downloaded or played.

Re:In exchange for

[Trax3001BBS]

Google maps, Google Earth, keeping their word (My email account) and the rest they offer us.

So? If they're pulling facebook shit or worse, I don't think it's worth it.

So you fell for it... Data is what Google is about and their business, not facebooks.

Re:In exchange for

[Trax3001BBS]

Uh? What question are you trying to answer?

Now your just trolling for Facebook.

How much you're worth to them (and others)

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what Google and these other groups don't want you to know.

"What is Google hiding about me from me?"

[john of sparta]

whatever they didn't get from you.

Re: "What is Google hiding about me from me?"

[shanen]

Uh? Are you saying that they are hiding it by sending it to me? If so, then what I am seeking could be rephrased along those lines. Right now it looks like I have a gigantic pile of data that's even messier than my actual life, which is saying something.

Do you really think they'd tell you?

[Rick Schumann]

Seriously, do you really think that with anything short of a court order or an order from Congress (or maybe a gun pointed at their heads) they're really going to show you how much actual data they have collected on you? When you signed up for their 'services' using your real name, you handed them the Keys to the Kingdom, regardless of any agreement (that you likely never read in the first place). The only way to win this game was to have not played in the first place.

Re:Do you really think they'd tell you?

[reboot246]

According to Google, I'm a 22 year old black female college student. That would really surprise my white great-grandson. :)

Doesn't anybody know how to lie? Unless it's absolutely unavoidable, lie through your teeth when you're online. Lie about everything. Make up fake answers for security questions. Only your bank and online retailers need to know your real name. Lie, lie, lie about everything else. Yes, my real name IS reboot246.

Re: Do you really think they'd tell you?

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh.... you just corrected your profile ;) try downloading the updated profile now....

Re:Do you really think they'd tell you?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, I won!

Re:Do you really think they'd tell you?

[HermMunster]

I never log in to Google services. I turn off as much tracking as possible using things like the pihole. I have my own email server and locally host much of the infrastructure that the normals rely on Google for. I use vpns running in the router (pfsense). I use fake names for most things. I use a dedicated GPS in my vehicles. I stopped using Google for everything a few years ago. There's virtually nothing that Google offers that you can't provide for yourself.

Re:Do you really think they'd tell you?

[shanen]

Highly principled stand, and I congratulate you [HermMonster] for your energy and enthusiasm and even for your efforts, but I think you are deluding yourself. One reason is that by attempting to hide yourself you would actually be attracting attention to yourself. Quite possibly, you are even rendering yourself a marked man and the FBI is following you around trying to figure out what you are trying to hide.

More seriously, some of the services cannot be used without leakage. Let me take an innocent example, the case of using a private browser window to evade a paywall. This is something I've started doing fairly routinely when using Google News. I've made the calculation that I'm willing to let the google use my identity to recommend stories that I'm interested in, but what am I actually hiding there? I'm willing to assume that the paywalled website is fooled into thinking that I've never been seen before (by the website), but am I actually fooling the google? I don't think so precisely because it is clearly in the google's interest to detect the link translation process.

In concrete terms of the data that I just downloaded from the google, I suspect that there are browser histories in there, including information on direct and indirect links to other websites. The new derivative question is whether or not the google is reporting on this to the paywalled websites?

So far this topic seems to be generating lots of new questions in my mind, and I haven't found many (any?) answers.

Re:Do you really think they'd tell you?

[rot16]

Most of my e-mails come or go to @gmail.com, so running my own e-mail server is almost useless.

Re: Do you really think they'd tell you?

[Reverend Green]

#dunce

Re:Do you really think they'd tell you?

[Bert64]

Exactly this...
When i first used the internet, it was commonly accepted that you don't give out your real information online... Now people post all kinds of information about themselves, you can usually build up a very detailed profile of someone just from what they make available publicly.

Now, people think i'm weird for signing up to websites using aliases and not having a facebook page.

Re: Do you really think they'd tell you?

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't need your name. Your friends have you in their contacts under your clear name. That's more than enough.

Re:Do you really think they'd tell you?

[Anonymous Coward]

Except Google does in fact reveal everything in one dashboard for signed-in users:

https://myaccount.google.com/dashboard

This gives options within every major product to see your history, tell Google to forget elements of your history, to disable collection, and to disable personalization altogether across products or just for ads.

The privacy policy is also entirely readable:

https://policies.google.com/privacy

Note that it guarantees right to delete data, and it guarantees the policy will not be adjusted to reduce rights without consent. Now you can certainly believe Google is lying, but they'd be setting themselves up for breach-of-contract class action lawsuit if they were found to be deliberately lying or misleading with any of this.

That's an embedding vector

[Visarga]

The 700 dimensions vector (if it's true) is not something you can make sense of. It's an embedding vector that represents your characteristics in relation to all the other people. Each individual dimension doesn't have a meaning.

Re:That's an embedding vector

[shanen]

I think I agree with you as far as you went, but in that case part of the information I am asking about is the context to interpret the shape of the categorization space and where I am within it. That is also in terms of the relationships to the parts of my data that contributed to my location and to the accuracy of that location. The google can reveal a lot about the space without exposing any of the individuals within it.

Perhaps a more concrete example will help? For example, can the google look at the vectors of spouses to assess how well their marriages are liable to work? Just asking for a friend, since I'm pretty sure my wife would NOT let me look at her data. She'll barely tell me when breakfast is ready.

Re:That's an embedding vector

[Lanthanide]

You've just, in this forum response, revealed enough information for anyone reading it to have a good idea of just how well your marriage is likely to work.

Re:That's an embedding vector

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a pure guess, but I would expect that Google could give you a percentage probability of your marriage lasting for X number of years - but they couldn't tell you specific reasons like "it's because you both like cats" or whatever.

Re:That's an embedding vector

[shanen]

Me thinks you [Lanthanide] are projecting, but I will confess that I never did understand how my own parents stayed together. My condolences to your much better half. Or perhaps better to respond with some variation of the old grading joke: "I was one of the students who made the dean's list possible!"

That was just minor tit for even more minor tat. The most appropriate response would probably be to ask "Don't you have anything to say on any aspect of the actual topic at hand?" If you know nothing and have nothing to say, then you can always say nothing.

I actually did consider raising the issue of using personality characterization for marriage guidance and counseling. I would not be at all surprised to find out that some branch of the google is exploring related business opportunities. However my own interests these days are probably much more mundane. I'm just trying to figure out who's treading on my freedom.

By the way, I don't think the google is the worst abuser of our personal information. In a sense, the google's motives are pure insofar as they are focused on the money. Almost every question about what the google is doing with our information comes back to the answer "... because they think it will increase their profits."

Re:That's an embedding vector

[Anonymous Coward]

I expect that the 700 vectors is merely a mathematical construct. If you look at the classic analog color NTSC TV signal, it has three components of Y, I, and Q. The Y component (luminance) basically provides a grayscale value in the signal. The other two signals are used to provide the color portion of the signal. Those other two signals have a mathematical relationship with the Y component, but are not really intended to be used in isolation from the Y signal. Looking at the I or Q signals independently gives an impression of the overall picture, but not really anything your average person would intuitively grasp.

You can still use that information for broad categorizations of the image mathematically, however.

Re:That's an embedding vector

[Anonymous Coward]

This. Making a prediction from data is actually the easy part of machine learning. Making a prediction and explaining in human terms *why* that decision was made is a field known as interpretable machine learning, and it's not even close to a solved problem.

Re:That's an embedding vector

[Anonymous Coward]

Not trying to be mean but I think he was referring to your wife not wanting you to see her data. Generally in relationships most people have better experiences when they are both open with communication. Your relationship may be the exception to the rule and I hope it is. Wish you the best.

Re:That's an embedding vector

[Aighearach]

When you give out "red flag" type of relationship data, (that your wife doesn't trust you with personal information, even though marriage is the most personal form of familial relationship) and then accuse people who notice of projecting, I just have to assume you should also stop gaslighting her.

That's vector 86, if you're keeping score.

Re:That's an embedding vector

[shanen]

That's sophistic BS. If there is any projection there, it's that I would respect her privacy as much as I would hope she respects mine.

As matters stand now, you sound like a child who was probably in diapers when I was wandering though my first flame wars. I knew flame warriors who actually enjoyed themselves, but I've always regarded ad hominem argumentation as a waste of time, but apparently unavoidable when hominems are involved.

I didn't introduce the gaslighting topic, and I would even argue that I made a sincere attempt to redirect the conversation towards a more productive course. Of course I'd never waste the efforts in your case, except perhaps by encouraging you to prove me wrong. Go ahead, make my day by writing something worth reading.

Re:That's an embedding vector

[BlueStrat]

There are other causes which drive the homicide rate and as most of that rate consists of gangland murders and does correlate with the overall crime rate, that's probably your best place to investigate the primary cause.

This. Making a prediction from data is actually the easy part of machine learning. Making a prediction and explaining in human terms *why* that decision was made is a field known as interpretable machine learning, and it's not even close to a solved problem.

It's a multi-dimensional Venn diagram with 'weighted', 'colored' 'spun, 'polarized' and many other individual characterizations and 'flavors' assigned for each subset with multiple intersectional nodes themselves forming subsets which interact and influence all the other subsets' characteristics. The more data points available, the more granular and numerous the subsets become.

Basically "it's turtles all the way down" in a multidimensional massively interactive Venn universe.

It enables a frightening level of predictive power given sufficient data and processing power, particularly in light of humans being on the cusp of creating true AI, enabling all that information collected on everyone every single day to actually be analyzed and distilled.

In the wrong hands it would be a powerful tool for controlling and manipulating both individuals and entire populations.

Strat

Re:That's an embedding vector

[Aighearach]

You're not comprehending.

I can't even tell if you're a non-native speaker who doesn't understand the word "projection" in this context, or if you just don't understand who said what.

Either way, weak sauce. Do better. Shouting "sophistry" when you lack understanding doesn't even convince me you know what that word means. Maybe use smaller words, so that you can arrange them in a way that makes sense?

And you're right, you didn't introduce the subject of gaslighting; I did. Are you trying to gaslight me, or did you really not comprehend that part of the conversation, either?

Re:That's an embedding vector

[Lanthanide]

This is what I was referring to: "She'll barely tell me when breakfast is ready."

I got a ZIP file

[mnemotronic]

I used the provided link to "download all your data" and had it save a "takeout" ZIP file on my Google Drive. I then tried adding a few files to drive and removing them then "really" removing them. In both cases a "removed" file (in the Trashcan but not "really" removed) did not appear in the Takeout archive. I then created a new Takeout archive and had it send it as an email to my gmail account. In both cases it's everything from my drive, calendar, all emails, contacts, bookmarks, photos, etc.

In the expanded ZIP under the root "Takeout" dir there's an "index.html" with details on all the files. The 2nd archive i created even contained the first archive in it's entirety from the "Takeout" folder on my Drive.

Are you seeing something other than this?

Re:I got a ZIP file

[rot16]

This list is missing your tracked browsing history. For Android users there is GPS tracking history and call and SMS history.

Re:I got a ZIP file

[shanen]

I downloaded my data in 2-GB pieces. One of the mysteries is that the last two pieces were in total less than 2 GB. Each of the pieces contains a number of folders, many of which have the same names. There is only one index.html file in the last piece, but it does not work the same way as the Facebook archive you can download. I've been poking at the data in various ways, but so far haven't been able to make hide nor hair of it.

Perhaps it will be helpful to consider another version? This one is from IBM and is called personality insights: https://personality-insights-d... The link is already old, but it gives you about 15 dimensions of personality based on text you wrote. I recommend using the "Body of Text" tab for most control. There's also a kind of radar display of about 70 dimensions grouped into various categories.

Re:I got a ZIP file

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh, but that's data about the browser and data about the Android device, not data about you thus it doesn't apply.

Re:I got a ZIP file

[shanen]

I'm still trying to consider the differences between what you received in one gigantic file versus the smaller pieces I received... I feel my earlier response was not helpful.

Let me say that my original idea about the structure is definitely false. I speculated that the links in the index.html file would include relative references to the component files. That is NOT the case. I was even reduced to searching the google's documentation for such information.

Now you have me speculating that the redundant files are all unique, even though the folder names appear many times. I was looking for something along these lines, but I think I have to describe it in terms of an algorithm:

(1) Add files until the 2-GB limit is about to be breached.
(2) Find smaller files from various directories until the 2-GB limit is exactly satisfied.
(3) Start the next zip file and return to Step (1).

What happened at the end is still unclear, but I'm going to attempt to reconstruct a single takeout file on that theory, hopefully before this question has expired on Slashdot so I can share that part of the information. However, even if this approach works, I think it will only reduce to the interpretation problem for the Facebook data, which was basically similarly mysterious even though the amount of data was so much less.

Re:I got a ZIP file

[swillden]

This list is missing your tracked browsing history. For Android users there is GPS tracking history and call and SMS history.

If location history is turned on, it should be there in the download. Mine is.

SMS messages are not uploaded to Google, unless you're using Hangouts for SMS (which you can't do anymore unless you're using Project Fi as your carrier). Many people wish SMS were backed up, so that it could be restored onto a new device. As it is, when you get a new phone your SMS history is lost unless you copy it across to the new device (which recent Android versions will automate for you).

FWIW, Android P is enabling Android backups to be encrypted in a way that ensures that Google cannot read them. That will in turn enable more data (like SMS, I'd expect) to be backed up and restored since it won't raise privacy concerns.

Re:I got a ZIP file

[Swave An deBwoner]

I dunno.

I copied the text of DJT's speech to the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC)

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/23/17044760/transcript-trump-cpac-speech-snake-mccain

and got the bizarre result quoted below. Which is very similar to the result I got when I typed in some of my own text. And similar also to their sample text from a snippet of Barack Obama's statements in the 2012 election debate.

I think that the "personality-insights" site is kinda BS. Or maybe we're all just so similar.

Personality Portrait
9935 words analyzed: Very Strong Analysis
Summary
You are analytical, excitable and sentimental.

You are empathetic: you feel what others feel and are compassionate towards them. You are uncompromising: you think it is wrong to take advantage of others to get ahead. And you are philosophical: you are open to and intrigued by new ideas and love to explore them.

Your choices are driven by a desire for organization.

You are relatively unconcerned with both achieving success and taking pleasure in life. You make decisions with little regard for how they show off your talents. And you prefer activities with a purpose greater than just personal enjoyment.

You are likely to______
like historical movies
volunteer for social causes
like classical music

You are unlikely to______
be influenced by social media during product purchases
prefer style when buying clothes
like rap music

google is Alphabet

[Anonymous Coward]

You tell me NSA collaborators! I assume it means lots of money, and a chance to pretend you in the SS with there cool cloths, FASCISTS

Data brokers

[Anonymous Coward]

Google doesn't sell it outright. They are aggregating from data brokers and other sources.

You can cut into the data broker model by subscribing to a service like DeleteMe, but it's expensive and not a silver bullet by any means. But doing that + using a privacy-friendly e-mail provider + using a secure messenger + securing your browser with ad/tracker blockers + seriously limiting what you put on social media + using DuckDuckGo or Startpage for search + using a VPN...

If you do ALL that you'll have pretty strong protection.

The real question is...

[Anonymous Coward]

What does Google mean to my data?

Re:Stalking

[donaldm]

I cant believe we have deteriorated as to let a corporation stalk us

With Google Chrome you can turn many of their tracking features off although if you are feeling paranoid there are other web browsers you can use. It does get more difficult to control or stop information being sent to one or more interested parties if the operating system you are using is configured by default to do so and you can't blame Google Chrome for that.

Like it or not any site, you visit with a web browser will log your information as metadata. Under normal circumstances, metadata is only used for debugging purposes unless a court order is presented to the appropriate managers, (ah the good old days) however depending on the privacy policies of the company that metadata can be sold to interested parties.

It must be noted that most computers even from the 1950's onward logged metadata which as I have explained before is extremely useful for debugging purposes. Under normal circumstances, metadata was only kept for a few days or months (depends on company policy), however, it appears metadata can be used for other purposes and depending which country you live in there may be government policies in place that require retention of metadata for years.

BTW. I run Linux as my primary operating system and I have instant access to four web browsers, those are Google Chrome, Firefox, Konqueror and Qupzilla. There are other browsers I could install (takes about a minute or two) but I choose not to. No matter which browser I use any site I visit will log my activity as metadata even if I am using incognito settings. At least I don't have to worry that my operating system is sending data to interested parties.

More questions and answers I'm seeking...

[shanen]

First of all, thanks to all the people who have provided thoughtful or useful ideas. I'm about to make the attempt to read everything (except for the ACs, and I'm even considering looking at them this one time), but right now I want to add a few thoughts from my early reflections on the first comments I saw... I'm going to put them in the form of additional questions I wish I could answer from the voluminous, even overwhelming data that the google sent me:

(5) Where is the evidence that I'm a good person who deserves more success? The stuff I'd be glad to show to a prospective employer, for example.

(6) Where is the proof of what a prick I am? Assuming I want to be a better person (and I strongly suspect that many of us are lying to ourselves on that topic), I want to see that evidence to change or challenge. (To change myself or to challenge the evidence.)

(7) Is there anything in there that I should actually be afraid of? Things that my enemies could use against me, especially if they are more motivated to find those things than I am?

(8) How could I find evidence of strengths that I don't even know I have?

So far I'm just being highly reflective, but I've thought of at least two question beyond that low level...

(9) What is the economic value of my personal information to the google?

(10) Where are the pieces the googlers are cashing in on?

Now I'm going to look over the entire thing seeking more clues and provocations... Seems to be my duty as the "instigator" of this discussion in some sense of instigate...

Re:More questions and answers I'm seeking...

[n3r0.m4dski11z]

"(5) Where is the evidence that I'm a good person who deserves more success?"

You must look into yourself for this answer. Life is random, but the way you react to it you have some control over. If you can't give yourself an honest opinion on this matter, ask your wife.

("6) Where is the proof of what a prick I am?"

You seem to have confused google with the ghosts of christmas past. I don't think it works that way.

"(7) Is there anything in there that I should actually be afraid of? "

Are you ashamed of something? question why, accept yourself, come to terms with it, or stop the behaviour. But a specific example would be location data. I have noticed when i move, and my wife starts using google in the new place (I do not use it) it gradually learns where my IP address is in the world. Thats pretty basic but also the most frightening thing to me personally really. Is that in the data? i dont know, i didnt rtfa.

(8) How could I find evidence of strengths that I don't even know I have?

Man, you sound like someone ripe for self help. Google is not self help, its an agregate data harvester (and probable NSA front).

"(9) What is the economic value of my personal information to the google?"

Individually, nothing. On aggregate, it seems like billions.. (are they at trillions yet?)

(10) Where are the pieces the googlers are cashing in on?

Google is hype, plus a few products, lots of patents and IP and a universal world brandname. They also give away lots of "free beer" and are a grandfather in internet time. But primarily its an advertising company, so again, its value is in interpreting the agregate. You seem to want the conclusions that google is drawing about you personally, however that is the reason google is valuable, the interpretation of the data. Their conclusions don't belong to you in their eyes, thats the only thing of value they really "own".

Picture a painting that everyone in the world is painting, one brush stroke each. They have given you the results of your individual brush stroke, but how could you possibly determine any context without all the rest? An individual brush stroke is valueless and uninteresting. Having *everyones* data is where the real value lays.

Re:More questions and answers I'm seeking...

[shanen]

Well, I think it's a thoughtful response, but not to any of the questions I was actually asking, and it doesn't seem to be worth the effort required to reinterpret them from your twisted, possibly ad hominem, perspective. Even less so since I'm certainly willing to concede the possibility that it is MY perspective that is the twisted one. Instead let me try to answer you [n3r0.m4dski11z] in terms of freedom, which, per my primary sig, is actually my overriding concern. To do that I had better include the latest version of my sig (which is not constrained by the Slashdot context):

  #1 Freedom = (Meaningful + Justified - Coerced) Choice{~5} != (Beer^4 | Speech | Trade)

(Even there I can't get a decent "not equal" sign... By the way, your reference to "free beer" is actually included in the 4th power there.)

What is actually relevant in my response to your comment is actually the 5, which is related to the magnitude of meaningful choice. If there are too few choices, then there is no freedom, and ditto with too many choices, though for different reasons. The goal of each corporate cancer is to grow so large as to eliminate all other choices, and the google is succeeding in many areas.

Viewing this in terms of a solution, I wish there were roughly 5 competitors, and now that the google has not-so-graciously given me a copy of my data, I really wish that I could take my data and go home, or at least transfer my data to a competitor who could provide similar services. As a first step, I wish I could understand what there is in the data that the google has allowed me to copy. (It's perhaps too obvious to me that my questions matter primarily from that perspective.) The actual transition to such a system of true competition seems almost inconceivable, though dividing and conquering the google seems better (to me) than all out war among the corporate cancers with the last surviving cancer getting to eat ALL the data.

Eh?

[shanen]

Sorry, Trax3001BBS, but I have to conclude that you are a terrible writer. Perhaps indifferent to communicating? If so, why write at all?

I'm really trying to strain my imagination for some meaning in any of your comments. Perhaps your last comment is supposed to mean that you think I'm advocating on behalf of Facebook in some sense of its superiority to the google? If so, I would say that I basically have the same questions (and concerns) about the Facebook data, even though there was so much less of it. At least based on Facebook's claim to have three orders of magnitude less data about me...

Re:Eh?

[Trax3001BBS]

Sorry, Trax3001BBS, but I have to conclude that you are a terrible writer. Perhaps indifferent to communicating? If so, why write at all?

Your right and apologize, I did indeed misread the summery.

Re:Eh?

[shanen]

I guess I'm supposed to accept that apology and hope you are more careful in your reading in the future (even though I still don't understand the nature of your misunderstanding).

However I remain more interested in prevention than cure, so I'm wondering how to map that exchange into EPR (Earned Public Reputation) terms. What dimension of your EPR ought to be diminished by that exchange? Perhaps some dimension of my own EPR should be lowered, too? Certainly not a productive branch of the discussion, and the underlying objective of EPR is to save time by avoiding such... Not the only objective, but one of the important ones.

Where were the browser histories?

[shanen]

So far in my explorations of the data I haven't seen any browser history data, though I strongly suspect the google is collecting it. Are you saying that it isn't anywhere in the archive? Is the google claiming that this is some sort of derived information that belongs to the google, not me?

My hypothesis is that it's in there somewhere in some form, but I just don't know how to look for it. I certainly can't prove it isn't there.

Re:Where were the browser histories?

[swillden]

So far in my explorations of the data I haven't seen any browser history data, though I strongly suspect the google is collecting it

Unless you have web history enabled (check the settings in myactivity.google.com), I'm quite certain Google is not storing your browser history. I think this is a distinct question from tracking your web browsing through Google Analytics, assuming you haven't opted out of that. In the latter case, Google gets information about the sites you visit from those sites and uses it to update your interest profile, but doesn't store the actual visit history.

Note that there is almost certainly data Google has about you which it cannot show you, because it can't be 100% certain that you are you. Data derived from logged-out interactions can be tentatively correlated with you, but since there's no way to be completely certain you're the same person, it would be a violation of the privacy of whoever actually had that logged-out interaction (which might be you) to show it to you. In the case of logged-in interactions, of course, it's reasonable to presume that anything done while logged into account A can be safely shown to account A.

Re:Where were the browser histories?

[shanen]

Mostly I can only address one part of it, which is the "can't be 100% certain that you are you". The takeout website checks your password at several times in the process. I was actually surprised that there didn't seem to be any option to encrypt the file.

Re:Where were the browser histories?

[swillden]

Mostly I can only address one part of it, which is the "can't be 100% certain that you are you". The takeout website checks your password at several times in the process. I was actually surprised that there didn't seem to be any option to encrypt the file.

Checking your password only helps ensure that the person getting the data that is known to be associated with the account actually is. It doesn't help with data that is only thought to be associated with the account. The uncertainty is in the connection between the data and the account, not between the account and the account owner.

Re:Where were the browser histories?

[shanen]

Thanks for the clarification. I should have also been more clear that I don't regard passwords as secure.

Actually, I think the notion of identity is key, and I actually advocate for the use of EPR (Earned Public Reputation) as a way to manage time and filter out such annoyances as ACs. Again, that's part of my framing around this entire topic... In theory the google data should include both private and public parts, but right now it's just an obscure mishmash and this story/discussion was in general not illuminating..

Re:Stalking

[shanen]

It seems that you are leading into some of the sensitive topics that were touched upon earlier in the context of VPNs... However, to say more would be to draw exactly the sort of attention that I don't want to attract?

"but no, it means nothing to me"

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Every search, every location, every image, every chat...? I'm a queer leftist atheist. Those three vectors alone (I'm white) could get me thrown in jail in some parts of the country. I'm a threat to the right-wing establishment, and I feel very scared about my online trail. I've been off social media and I'm using TOR to de-fingerprint even this session (fingerprinting a host computer is trivial despite the facade of "privacy" settings in browsers).

I think if you were more at-risk demographic, you wouldn't be so cavalier about what Google knows about you.

Re: "but no, it means nothing to me"

[Reverend Green]

"a queer leftist atheist"

Don't worry - in Surveillance Valley you're part of the nomenklatura demographic. Big Brother is more likely to send you a job offer than send the Stasi knocking.

But yes, anyone who is even a little outside the media-manufactured cultural norm is put at risk by panoptic surveillance.

Some answers from a X-Google engineer

[Anonymous Coward]

2. Google doesn't have all that data unified. The takeout project is actually the most unified view of your data.
3. Googlers in general doesn't have access to your data. Systems do, and use it in an automated fashion. There are break glass access for some engineers for some types of troubleshooting - but this triggers alarms.

In general, during my > 5 years at Google, I realized it's a company I'll trust with my data for many years to come. The "Data Liberation Front" who ensures that data takeout is available is huge. Also, GDPR in Europe ensures that data takeout needs to be very easy for many years to come. Google was just years ahead of the law there.

Re: Some answers from a X-Google engineer

[Anonymous Coward]

More answers from a current Google engineer.

You can see what Google has concluded about you for the benefit of advertisers here:

https://adssettings.google.com

You can also turn off interest-based advertising and remarketing if you like.

The definitive way to see what Google does with your data is to open an AdWords account, which just takes a few clicks. You don't have to spend anything to see what's on offer. You can examine all the ways to target ads and judge for yourself if it's okay. I haven't seen anything that worries me in the slightest.

The other side of advertising is performance. Advertisers want to know who saw their ads. This data is only exposed in aggregate; if there isn't enough data then nothing is shown.

This works for other companies too. Just open an advertiser account and have a look.

In ten years at Google I have not seen any user data. I would be fired on the spot if I tried to. In my estimation private data is considerably safer in Google's cloud than on any internet-connected device I could set up myself. An offline device in a big safe might start to be comparable.

I realize it's impossible to be sure of this without an insider view. And I don't expect you to take my word for it. But I'm happy to tell it like it is :)

collaborationism

[Reverend Green]

Google's panopticon means the Stasi know every detail of my life.

Zuckerberg?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that you?

Raw data vs Derived data

[mrwireless]

The main thing to understand here is that there are two types of data:

- Your raw data
- Their 'derived data'

This 'Derived data' (as the databroker industry calls it) is where the real value is. These algorithmically formed 'opinions' about you are the valuable distilled product they sell. In the USA this derived data doesn't belong to you. It's protected as a form of corporate free speech.

In the EU this is a little different, as these 'opinions' are also considered personal data. The question is to what extent you get access to it. For example, the threshold for personal data is when a piece of data can be traced back to less than 11 people. So the trick here is to create opinions about small groups of which you are a part. For example: knowing that someone with cancer lives in one of three adjacent houses, that is not considered personal data.

Re:Raw data vs Derived data

[shanen]

If I ever had a mod point to give, you'd get my "insightful" vote. However I feel like I've already responded to the points you raised in the context of imagining that the google had a real competitor in most of the areas where the google makes money.

Public masturbation of 97333. Sad.

[shanen]

Z^-1

Re: Public masturbation of 97333. Sad.

[Anonymous Coward]

Cat got your tounge?

You've got no rebuttal so you beg for people downmod. Interesting.

Personality insights

[shanen]

You only looked at the first part of the results? However, I think what you saw from Personality Insights was an example of GIGO. You picked problematic input. Not just the effect of multiple authors, but also Trump's YUGELY garbled delivery of whatever he was supposed to say mashed into whatever popped into his head from moment to moment. Largely incoherent input, and yet some parts of the results make sense. Empathetic? Yes, but in a twisted way. I actually think that Trump is strong on the "humanist" dimension, but strongly negative in his polarity. The only person who matters to Trump is himself, and I'm sort of unsurprised that the results got confused on that dimension because Trump does have extremely high empathy for the people who matter, which is only himself.

(Me? It's the idealistic dimension that dominates... But the world is mostly run by the materialists.)

In my largest experiment, I actually used my side of some long email exchanges with a particularly close friend, and the results were surprising and not surprising... At the time it seemed like too much effort, but perhaps I should try feeding it different samples to see how consistent my personality is when I'm writing to different people? Or how much I've changed over times? I think I didn't want to go there because the next step is analyzing THEIR sides of the conversations, perhaps on the excuse of seeing what sorts of people my friends tend to be...

Thanks, but I apparently put the question badly

[shanen]

Or maybe there is no answer along the lines I was seeking?

Anyway, I do want to thank the constructive contributors, even though I didn't learn the kinds of things I was hoping to learn. I did learn a few new things and got a few new ideas, but mostly I feel like I framed the topic incorrectly. Is it evidence of too much Japanese influence to feel like an apology is in order?

However, Slashdot marches on, and this "story" has pretty much expired already... The google and our private data held by the data is not expiring.

China needs 400K semiconductor professionals

[Anonymous Coward]

China is now actively hiring semiconductor professionals and they are paying huge salaries for those who are experienced

At last count China still needs at least 400,000 semiconductor professionals

If you ever faced age discrimination on your current career in the semiconductor field, please consider China as your next move

An added bonus --- China does not have the SJW problem

Public masturbation of 4982283

[shanen]

Z^-2