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FDA Worried Drug Was Risky; Now Reports of Deaths Spark Concern (cnn.com)

Blake Ellis and Melanie Hicken, writing for CNN: Two years ago, Brendan Tyne pleaded with the Food and Drug Administration to approve a drug that he was hopeful could finally bring his mother some peace. She could no longer move without assistance and had fallen victim to the debilitating and frightening psychosis that haunts many people with Parkinson's disease. "She thinks there are people in the house and animals are trying to get her," he told an FDA advisory committee. He believed that a new medication called Nuplazid, made by San Diego-based Acadia Pharmaceuticals, was the answer.

Nuplazid's review was being expedited because it had been designated a "breakthrough therapy" -- meaning that it demonstrated "substantial improvement" in patients with serious or life-threatening diseases compared to treatments already on the market. Congress created this designation in 2012 in an effort to speed up the FDA's approval process, which has long been criticized for being too slow. Around 200 drugs have been granted this designation since its creation. [...] The committee voted 12-2 and recommended that the FDA approve Nuplazid for the treatment of Parkinson's disease psychosis based on a six-week study of about 200 patients. It hit the market in June 2016. As caregivers and family members rushed to get their loved ones on it, sales climbed to roughly $125 million in 2017

[...] In November, an analysis released by a nonprofit health care organization, the Institute for Safe Medication Practices, warned that 244 deaths had been reported to the FDA between the drug's launch and March 2017. [...] Since the institute released its analysis, FDA data shows that the number of reported deaths has risen to more than 700. As of last June, Nuplazid was the only medication listed as "suspect" in at least 500 of the death reports.

41 of 183 comments (clear)

  1. Ah yes.. The reason the FDA does reviews by bobbied · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's a catch 22. The FDA usual process is slow and plodding but results in medications and medical procedures which are generally safe and effective by reducing as much risk as possible. However it takes a LONG time to perform all the necessary studies and clinical trials and critically ill patients die while they wait.

    The catch is that if you are trying to get approval for a novel medication that saves lives of the critically ill, how do you justify the delay needed to do all the safety and effectiveness studies? People will die if you don't try, but you might also kill and/or cure. What to do?

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    1. Re:Ah yes.. The reason the FDA does reviews by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      People keep telling me that we need to test different drugs differently because it's expensive and takes forever, and some drugs are obviously less-dangerous. I usually point out that tilting a single methyl group in a molecule to one side or the other determines if it's a harmless nasal decongestant or high-potency methamphetamine.

      For these complex cases, you can counsel the patient into a high-risk experimental drug program. High-risk programs would be highly-irregular and so would put a lot of warning in front of the patient. Your first-pass should tell you if there are really bad risks (this one had a concern about twice as much death happening in the experimental group as in the placebo group).

      It's kind of crap, but it's better than putting the drug into the "normal drug with scary warning labels like every other drug for this condition" class by flatly approving it for normal dispensation in normal pharmacies. The real problem is that psychotic patients aren't capable of really considering all of the risks (as if anyone really is), so you're still facing an ethics crisis.

    2. Re:Ah yes.. The reason the FDA does reviews by jd · · Score: 2, Interesting

      More comprehensive analysis of results, more comprehensive analysis of the pathways, more comprehensive analysis of what is going on in live patients and more comprehensive analysis of any deaths should improve things, but you can't do everything to the hilt. You need to balance any increase in these so as to get the best payoff (best outcomes for survivors, fewest deaths) for the same budget.

      Unfortunately, experts are considered heretics at the moment, and science is held as blasphemy by some. Added to that, corporations have no particular incentive to invest more because, by definition, they'll get less return. Why would anyone willingly spend more in order to get less? It's not even legal in America to take action that could hurt shareholders, so pharmaceuticals cannot legally improve the science behind their work even if it would be the CEO's ultimate dream.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    3. Re:Ah yes.. The reason the FDA does reviews by Mnemennth · · Score: 2

      Yes, I DID think that through. It is STILL true.

      I never ONCE suggested any of the things you attributed to me; you pulled ALL of that straight out of your own mental fog.

      mnem
      I know, it's so much easier to talk out your arse when you post as AC; Ifni forbid you should take the slightest amount of responsibility for what you say.

    4. Re:Ah yes.. The reason the FDA does reviews by ortholattice · · Score: 4, Funny

      I usually point out that tilting a single methyl group in a molecule to one side or the other determines if it's a harmless nasal decongestant or high-potency methamphetamine.

      How hard is it to tilt this methyl group?

      (Asking for a friend.)

      I mean, think of all the dangerous meth that could be converted into a harmless nasal decongestant. And btw can you tilt it either way?

    5. Re:Ah yes.. The reason the FDA does reviews by bmxeroh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I remember seeing an article somewhere about converting meth back into a decongestant. The allure is that it's far easier to get meth than it is to get the decongestant. I used to work in the pharm industry, and the regulations are laughable as to their inconsistencies. Did you know that dispensing pharmacies don't have to keep an exact pill count on controlled substances? They are allowed to estimate what's there. Distributors are REQUIRED to keep an exact pill count of any open bottles returned, but since the pharmacy was just guessing the paperwork doesn't match up. Imagine how a DEA investigator doing an audit feels about that.

      --
      Central Ohio Home Theater Installation - The Theater People
    6. Re:Ah yes.. The reason the FDA does reviews by bobbied · · Score: 2

      Um... Yea, the FDA does that.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    7. Re:Ah yes.. The reason the FDA does reviews by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not even legal in America to take action that could hurt shareholders, ....

      Please don't say this. It is not correct. Not even close. I have read the court decision that this fable is based on, and that is not what it says.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    8. Re: Ah yes.. The reason the FDA does reviews by c6gunner · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Solution: We dont need or want the federal government demanding efficacy. Thats for your fucking doctor to decide, not some professional bureaucrat asshole

      Yeah you do. There are multiple problems with these two sentences:

      1. You're OK with "some professional bureaucrat asshole" deciding whether something is safe, but not whether it's effective? Why? Do you, by any chance sell homeopathy? "Buy my shit; it doesn't to dick, but it's completely safe!"

      2. "Your doctor" is no more able to asses the efficacy of an untested treatment than is your garbage man. In order to know whether or not a medication is effective we need large scale studies, not clinical anecdotes. Your doctor isn't doing any large scale studies; the "professional science assholes" at the FDA are.

    9. Re:Ah yes.. The reason the FDA does reviews by cellocgw · · Score: 2

      I remember seeing an article somewhere about converting meth back into a decongestant.

      That article was satire, written by an accomplished chemical engineer who knew how to write it so it looked completely technical.
      For better or worse, converting meth into pseudoephedrine is not realistically possible.

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    10. Re:Ah yes.. The reason the FDA does reviews by shaitand · · Score: 2

      Meth works just fine as a nasal decongestant. Better actually. You just need a smaller dose whereas you have to double what it says on the box of sudafed to get any noticeable result. It is also more effective in ADHD treatment than adderall with far more room to safely increase the dose for adult adhd.

      There are no shortage of things like this that have fallen victim to the war on drugs. Cocaine in very light doses (natural coca leaf tea vs concentrated powder extract) is much more like mild coffee with far fewer side effects.

    11. Re: Ah yes.. The reason the FDA does reviews by Dragonslicer · · Score: 2

      2. "Your doctor" is no more able to asses the efficacy of an untested treatment than is your garbage man. In order to know whether or not a medication is effective we need large scale studies, not clinical anecdotes. Your doctor isn't doing any large scale studies; the "professional science assholes" at the FDA are.

      Just to clarify a bit, the FDA doesn't conduct studies, they review and evaluate study data. Studies are usually conducted at a health care facility of some kind, so it is possible, though highly unlikely, that "your doctor" is involved in a few drug studies. Your primary physician almost certainly isn't part of any studies, but specialists at larger hospitals often have patients participating. Overall management of a study is usually, but not always, done jointly between the pharmaceutical company sponsoring the study and a specialist physician who focuses on research.

    12. Re: Ah yes.. The reason the FDA does reviews by bobbied · · Score: 2

      Oh come on, the FDA does more than that. Be honest about this.

      They DO finance their own studies, funded by the fees the pharmaceutical companies pay for licensing. They also are charged with actually reviewing all the studies the makers do seeking approval and over seeing that the studies are properly done. The FDA does a lot of it's own drug monitoring and reporting of possible adverse events.

      That's just the "drug" part of their mandate and activity. There is the "food" part too..

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    13. Re: Ah yes.. The reason the FDA does reviews by bobbied · · Score: 2

      Doesn't the FDA request and fund studies? If not, how do these studies on the new drugs get started? Please don't say the drug companies fund all of them!!

      The FDA doesn't fund studies on new drugs. However it DOES determine what studies they will require for licensing a new drug, then after the manufacturer has completed those studies, the FDA reviews them before it issues a license for a drug to be used in specific ways.

      HOWEVER, the FDA does order and pay for studies for existing licensed drugs when possible and significant adverse reactions for said drug are found.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    14. Re:Ah yes.. The reason the FDA does reviews by goose-incarnated · · Score: 2

      OTOH, it might not work. Whoops!

      The shelves are filled with things that might not work. We expect the FDA to actually stop things that kill people. 700 deaths attributed to the drug is a bit of an extreme side effect, wouldn't you say?

      It depends on how many people received the drug and recovered. 700 deaths out of 7000 patients is bad. 700 deaths out of 70k patients is less bad, especially if the remaining 69300 patients experienced relief from dementia.

      Honestly, if my options are dementia or a pill that might kill me with a 50:50 chance of relief from the dementia, I'm going to take the pill.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    15. Re:Ah yes.. The reason the FDA does reviews by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      It depends on how many people received the drug and recovered.

      You might pick 700 people losing their loved ones so yours would be better. Would you be happy to be in the 700 so someone elses loved one would be better? That's a rhetorical question, since it all depends on how you value life.

      Honestly, if my options are dementia or a pill that might kill me with a 50:50 chance of relief from the dementia, I'm going to take the pill.

      Those weren't the options you were given. You were told your options were 50:50 "relief from dementia" and "no change". Sure, anyone would pick that. Would you be so quick to pick "relief or die"? Wouldn't it be nice to know the true options? Would you be informed enough to ask "how big was the sample pool for testing?" and would you think "200 people for six weeks" was enough, if you died?

    16. Re:Ah yes.. The reason the FDA does reviews by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      How about people have a brain and it's their life?

      What are they supposed to use their brain to do if they aren't told that the chances of dying as a side effect are relatively high? You can't make an informed decision without data.

      I used to take a medication that was later found to kill ~1 in 100,000. Given the benefit and risk of that drug, I would have elected to continue treatment with that drug.

      That's nice. Wouldn't it have been better if you knew before you made the choice what the chances were? Should others be restricted in knowing the danger because you are a risk taker?

      Inform me and allow me to make the choice.

      What value is the information that this certain drug didn't kill anyone in a group of 100 test subjects after taking it for just six weeks? How do you call it "informed" when there is so little data, and not just little data, but too little to have any statistical significance?

      If I was unable to move and was having severe psychosis, I would consider a drug that resolved those symptoms,

      Disingenuous. You would not be allowed to have an opinion. You are psychotic. It's easy to say what you would do; less easy to say what your next of kin should do with you.

      Quality of life is just as important (or more so) than quantity of life.

      So what you're saying is that knowing there is a drug that might cure you on the market in a year, after more testing to show that it won't kill you, is not good enough to wait for, you'd choose death now? A year of poor quality of life isn't worth living?

      And taken to the extreme, this calls for a program of euthenasia for anyone whose life will be "low quality", because quality is more important than quantity. I'm sorry, that's where this concept takes us.

  2. Worth the risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Like surgery and other non-drug therapies, sometimes the risk of death - even if very high - is a good gamble vs. the near-certainty of a poor quality of life.

    The key is knowing the risks and taking marketing out of the equation so patients, doctors, and caretakers/family members can make a truly informed, sober choice.

    1. Re:Worth the risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A broken clock is right twice a day, but that doesn't mean you should rely on it to decide when to do things.

      Three out of four studios for the drug didn't show any benefit, but four out of four showed increased risk of complications including death. It sounds like they kept testing until they found a statistical anomaly that gave them the answer they were looking for. I seriously doubt hey told patients about the studies that dind't show improvement, so you can forget informed choice.

    2. Re:Worth the risk by ProzacPatient · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'd also like to point out that this was a drug for terminally ill patients. I'm not saying their deaths should be taken likely but that should be kept in mind when considering if this drug was the cause of death in... terminally ill patients. Corelation is not causation.

  3. What's worse? by DatbeDank · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Paranoid delusions which keep an elderly person miserable, disabled, and disconnected disabled from everyone (even families)?

    Or a small chance a Parkinsons sufferer might die or have a radical improvement?

    You can't have it both, sign a waiver before treatment and move on. Save and enjoy the few who are able to make it. Mourn and cherish the memories of those who didn't.

    1. Re:What's worse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This system is ripe for abuse because you are targeting people who are both absolutely desperate and lack the training to make a fully informed decision. You can use plain English like "Might kill you and cause horrible suffering for weeks" but they will latch onto that hope, no matter how false, and try it anyway. It isn't a rational decision, it is an emotional one. There is a reason why we have a faceless government entity evaluate the merits of a drug as opposed to a free market customer driven demand approach. We got to where we are because the old methods like the "sign a waver and move on" methods didn't work.

  4. Worry is for Children by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Adults understand that life is about risk management. Even if all 700 deaths are attributable to the drug (highly unlikely) many people will take that risk to avoid living with Parkinson's/psychosis.

    One can be too cautious or not cautious enough. The FDA is far too cautious, to the extent that current estimates are that the FDA regulations have resulted in as many avoidable deaths as two Nazi Holocausts: http://www.ruwart.com/FDA/prot...

    Not every disease can be neatly solved and not every precaution is warranted. For America, deadly government-imposed regulations are a worse evil than patient choice (hopefully made with their physician) both by the philosophy and by the statistics. It shouldn't be surprising in the light of the Socialist Calculation Problem (from an information theory perspective) that freedom works better than being "managed" like livestock.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    1. Re:Worry is for Children by hipp5 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Adults understand that life is about risk management.

      If only that were true.

  5. What's the efficacy? by The+Raven · · Score: 2

    I'm sure many Parkinson's patients would prefer a small chance of death for a severe reduction in symptoms. It's a very painful and debilitating disease. I'm not saying that deaths are a good thing, or that it shouldn't be investigated carefully... but sometimes quality of life is more important than not dying.

    --
    "I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
    1. Re:What's the efficacy? by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      but sometimes quality of life is more important than not dying.

      This is very true. My mother always regretted having treatment for cancer when in her '80s. The treatment indirectly destroyed her quality of life and when the cancer returned, she opted for palliative care instead of treatment, knowing that death was inevitable.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
  6. The people taking the drug are very sick anyway by neilo_1701D · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Having read the article, the summary misses a crucial point: this drug is being given to people who are very, very sick. The drug manufacturer is in close contact with the families of the people taking this drug. Given that the people taking the drug literally have zero other options, it's honestly not surprising that there is a huge number of people dying whilst on this drug.

    The key question is: would they have died anyway?

    Yes, the FDA was concerned about rushing this drug to market. Yes, a significant number of the population dies when taking the drug. But there is also zero evidence that the drug caused the deaths.

    It's incredibly sad when a loved one dies. Seeing my dad slip away (eg. getting lost in a supermarket he had gone to for 40+ years, talk about me as if I was someone who he had just met) was heartbreaking. I can get a sense of the pain of families who though they were doing the best by getting their loved on on this drug. But life is finite and new treatments carry risk. We learn as much as we can from this and move forwards.

    And cry. But that's normal, too.

  7. The Post Is Incomplete by Artagel · · Score: 4, Informative

    The original poster provides information from the CNN article that shows deaths. It does not report that (1) the patient population is old, thus prone to death, and (2) that two follow-on studies found no difference in death rate between the drug and placebo. FDA is monitoring the reports of deaths, but unless someone does the science to find out whether the deaths of these old people are unusual you risk denying the patient population that benefits from the drug the relief from their disease.

    It is good that the medical community is being made aware of the adverse event reports. Doctors and patients (or their guardians) should know this information in making a personal decision.This is not a drug category with good options as shown by the breakthrough drug designation.
     

    1. Re:The Post Is Incomplete by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The original poster provides information from the CNN article that shows deaths. It does not report that (1) the patient population is old, thus prone to death, and (2) that two follow-on studies found no difference in death rate between the drug and placebo. FDA is monitoring the reports of deaths, but unless someone does the science to find out whether the deaths of these old people are unusual you risk denying the patient population that benefits from the drug the relief from their disease.

      It is good that the medical community is being made aware of the adverse event reports. Doctors and patients (or their guardians) should know this information in making a personal decision.This is not a drug category with good options as shown by the breakthrough drug designation.

      CNN reporting a half truth / incomplete story for sensationalist purposes? Unbelievable. If they keep that up someday they will be known as fake news. Did they link Trump to it yet?

    2. Re:The Post Is Incomplete by sjames · · Score: 2

      Actually, it DOES point out that the target group is people with advanced Parkensons and that there is likely to be a large number of deaths due to that. It also DOES point out that other studies showed that the death rate is the same as those on placebo. You may have stopped reading too soon.

      It also points out that some patients saw a lot of improvement and others saw none.

    3. Re:The Post Is Incomplete by Dorianny · · Score: 2

      CNN reporting a half truth / incomplete story for sensationalist purposes? Unbelievable. If they keep that up someday they will be known as fake news. Did they link Trump to it yet?

      Give me one for profit network that is not willing to report "a half truth / incomplete story" or even a straight out lie "for sensationalist purposes."

      Honest TV reporting died in the 80's when network executives stopped treating journalism as a "loss leader" and turned news it into another "entertainment" revenue stream

  8. How to make drugs risk free! by XXongo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's a catch 22. The FDA usual process is slow and plodding but results in medications and medical procedures which are generally safe and effective by reducing as much risk as possible. However it takes a LONG time to perform all the necessary studies and clinical trials and critically ill patients die while they wait. The catch is that if you are trying to get approval for a novel medication that saves lives of the critically ill, how do you justify the delay needed to do all the safety and effectiveness studies? People will die if you don't try, but you might also kill and/or cure. What to do?

    What you should do is put all the responsibility for making a mistake on the bureaucrats responsible for safety protocols, and all the costs associated with those safety protocols should be borne by the drug manufacturers.

    You do realize that higher the penalty you put on making a mistake, the result is that the people responsible for safety protocols will become more risk adverse, and no drug will ever get approved, right?

    That's the only way to get 100% certainty of never making a mistake in approving a drug: making sure you never approve a drug.

  9. The needs of many outweigh the few by sjbe · · Score: 2

    The catch is that if you are trying to get approval for a novel medication that saves lives of the critically ill, how do you justify the delay needed to do all the safety and effectiveness studies?

    We need to understand the effects of a range of dosages and what sort of patients are helped and which are not. Yes some patients will be harmed while we take the time to study safety and effectiveness but MORE patients will be harmed if we don't take the time to study safety and effectiveness. Merely knowing that a drug can help some patients isn't sufficient. We need to know what the range of safe and effective dosages are, what patient populations are helped, what the range of expected outcomes are, and why the treatment is effective. The goal of clinical trials isn't to save any specific patient though we'll do that if we can. The goal is to save the most possible patients.

    It's a cold hard truth about medicine that we learn how to save some people's lives by sacrificing others. There is no way around this. Some people are being sacrificed for the greater good. You might be one of them someday.

  10. SAEs... by dex22 · · Score: 5, Informative

    As a former Serious Adverse Event Co-ordinator for an ethical review board for medical studies (IRB) let me explain what is going on here.

    Firstly, the study population will have advanced Parkinson's with psychosis. This is a cohort that is very ill and has a high probability of adverse outcomes.

    Secondly, the risk a drug can present is set against the benefit it might provide. So for example if a pain killer offers very mild pain relief, but you're just as likely to have blood clots if you take it, the risks outweigh the benefits. Similarly, if you have a medication that is a breakthrough medication with a high degree of success at attenuating psychosis in people with Parkinsons, a higher level of risk would be considered acceptable.

    The clearest example of this is the various chemotherapy drugs. They're absolutely toxic - poisons. They're just not as bad as dying.

    So here's where it gets complicated. And it's why I am no longer working in the medical ethics field.

    As a Serious Adverse Event co-ordinator, if something bad (the "adverse event") happens to a patient taking a study medication or using a study device, the Principal Investigator has to submit an SAE form to their IRB (Independent Review Board.) So I come in at 9am and find a pile of letters reporting various negative outcomes. I then have to sort them into two piles based on some criteria.

    The first pile is ignored. Here's what goes in that pile: Any outcome that was described as a possibility in the Informed Consent document. If the Informed Consent the patient or their representative signed when they joined the study said, "risks include bone necrosis, blindness and death" then if any of those things happen, they don't get reported to the FDA. Instead, I send the PI a form letter saying the Adverse Event was not notifiable.

    The next level of filtering is that I then examine the adverse event itself, to make a judgment call of whether the event was "Unlikely" "Possibly" or "Definitely" related to the study medication or device. If it was unlikely or possibly related, the form letter is sent to the PI and the FDA isn't notified.

    Only if the outcome ISN'T described in the Informed Consent, AND I determine the event was "definitely" related to the study medication does the FDA ever get to know of the event.

    The disheartening thing about this is, and I'll give a real but anonymized example: one study I was SAE for, I would get many, many reports of bone necrosis of the jaw for a cancer medication. People's jaw bones were dying, and they would lose all their teeth in their lower jaw. They often would get infections, and in a few cases they would die. This was all described in the Informed Consent. For this one particular drug, the adverse event happened a lot - at least 30-40% of the cohort was experiencing this. The drug was lifesaving, so a high level of SAEs could be tolerated, BUT there was an existing medication on the market that had this adverse event occur at a much lower level - around 10-15%.

    And there was no mechanism for me to give this information to the FDA. There was no way for them to know what the real stats were. Their information collection system was designed to ignore vast swathes of negative outcomes.

    The pharma companies know how the system works, so they obviously will try to list any inhibiting adverse events in the documentation. If you read the documentation for approved and released drugs, the same things happen. Everyday drugs have listed side effects that include death all the time. Now you know why.

    So, obviously, I don't work in that field any more. It was soul destroying.

    1. Re:SAEs... by dex22 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The Pharma companies created the system, as they're the only ones interested in the legislation. The public who are interested are simply a couple of determined individuals with no money and the huge emotional burden of a personal loss. They are ineffective.

      Here's a secret: Every IRB is required to have a board of medical professionals, and a lay person. The lay person must come from outside the medical profession.

      YOU can be on an ethical review board.

      Also, it pays quite well.

    2. Re:SAEs... by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      The clearest example of this is the various chemotherapy drugs. They're absolutely toxic - poisons. They're just not as bad as dying.

      Sometimes they are worse than dying. That was the decision my mother made when her cancer returned -- she opted for palliative care the second time around, instead of the chemo.

      Your points are valid. Many treatments have side effects and risks. There is a need for a rational assessment of the risk versus the benefit.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
  11. Deliberate studies are a Good Thing by sjbe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One can be too cautious or not cautious enough. The FDA is far too cautious, to the extent that current estimates are that the FDA regulations have resulted in as many avoidable deaths as two Nazi Holocausts:

    What a bunch of bullshit. The FDA has saved orders of magnitude more people than have died and I think your equating their actions to the holocaust is entirely inappropriate and false. Here is the cold hard fact. Clinical trials only work because some people are sacrificed to save more people in the long run. Yes people will die who theoretically might have been saved but doing so actually costs MORE lives in the long run. There is absolutely no way around this. This process usually takes lots of time and money to do correctly and it is inevitable that some people will suffer and die during the process. While tragic it would be a far greater tragedy to short cut the process to save a few at the expense of many.

    Not every disease can be neatly solved and not every precaution is warranted.

    Quackery is a real thing. Drug companies can/will/have sold snake oil in a heartbeat if it means more profit. While there are ways to improve speed to market for drugs we cut corners at our peril.

    1. Re:Deliberate studies are a Good Thing by jbmartin6 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Quackery is indeed a real thing. However, I don't see the FDA playing much of a role in that, their testing revolves around safety not efficacy. For example, phenylephrine is approved and sold as a decongestant, yet is no more effective than placebo. Quite safe, though.

      --
      This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
  12. Clinical trials are how we learn by sjbe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The key question is: would they have died anyway?

    The only way to know that is with a properly conducted clinical study. Preferably of the double blind variety if possible. Which makes the whole argument about rushing the drug to market before we know if/when/why/how it works idiotic. We do studies the way we do them for very good reasons which we learned the hard way. It's a tragedy that anyone has to suffer or die but those deaths become wasteful if we do not learn anything from them. The greater tragedy is to have more people die because we lacked the patience and fortitude to see the studies through and look for the evidence.

    My mother just died from ALS. Horrible way to die. There are some experimental treatments but she understood that the odds were against her so she enrolled in some studies to help other people. She didn't want to die or suffer but the only way we will ever cure a horrible disease like ALS is if some people willingly sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

    1. Re:Clinical trials are how we learn by HiThere · · Score: 2

      They'd do it because it could yield data on whether or not they should go to the time, effort, and expense of doing the double blind study that would justify FDA approval.

      Double blind studies are expensive to set up, and it would be quite useful to be able to get a better idea ahead of time as to whether one is worthwhile.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  13. Re: Society killed these people by c6gunner · · Score: 2

    The truth is every one of them could be having quality of life improvements from Marijuana usage

    Don't forget whisky usage. Works just as well.