Slashdot Mirror
NTSB Boots Tesla From Investigation Into Fatal Autopilot Crash (theverge.com)
The National Transportation Safety Board has removed Tesla from the investigation into a fatal Autopilot accident that occurred in March. The NTSB says it took the action because Tesla had released "investigative information before it was vetted and confirmed by" the agency. "Such releases of incomplete information often lead to speculation and incorrect assumptions about the probable cause of a crash, which does a disservice to the investigative process and the traveling public," the agency writes. The Verge reports: The NTSB's account contradicts Tesla's version of the story. In a statement, the automaker says it decided to remove itself from the investigation on Tuesday because of the NTSB was restricting it from sharing information before the probe ends. The company also accuses the NTSB of being duplicitous, arguing that the agency has released statements about the crash at the same time that it told Tesla not to. "It's been clear in our conversations with the NTSB that they're more concerned with press headlines than actually promoting safety," a spokesperson for the company says. "Among other things, they repeatedly released partial bits of incomplete information to the media in violation of their own rules, at the same time that they were trying to prevent us from telling all the facts. We don't believe this is right and we will be making an official complaint to Congress." The company also said it will issue "a Freedom Of Information Act request to understand the reasoning behind their focus on the safest cars in America while they ignore the cars that are the least safe." The full letter send to Musk from the NTSB can be seen here.
The company also accuses the NTSB of being duplicitous, arguing that the agency has released statements about the crash at the same time that it told Tesla not to
That's how the NTSB operates - it releases preliminary information as it sees fits, but waits until their investigation is complete before making a final determination. It's their investigation - Tesla is only an invited guest, used as a technical resource, the same as Boeing for airplane crashes. You never hear Boeing releasing important accident details before the NTSB does.
People want to look away from the road for minutes at a time and Tesla sells drivers that ability. This is adding more to their bottom line than the fact their cars are electric. Break assist and lane wander warnings would accomplish the same safety features autopilot does, without crashing into firetrucks and lane dividers. If they actually get forced to make autopilot work that way, they will lose a ton of customers though. Not something they could survive, currently.
This is why Tesla is running scared.
"It's been clear in our conversations with the NTSB that they're more concerned with press headlines than actually promoting safety," a spokesperson for the company says.
Tesla has a lot more at risk depending on what those headlines say. I'm not surprised that they wanted to be the first to put out favorable information. I'm a fan of Tesla but when I read things like this I lose respect for them.
You also don't see consumers purchasing Boeing airplanes...
Yet hundreds of people can die in a single plane crash so I don't see what your point is. In both instances the purpose of the investigation is to find the cause and determine what can be done to prevent it from happening again, which can include recalls.
Musk tried to spin it in his favor, like he always does, but this time he got called on it.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
You may prefer it, but that method has proven to be very bad for the consuming public. The majority are not capable of looking at the data with an unbiased eye or without jumping to conclusions or making assumptions.
They do it the old way
They don't release anything until a conclusion has been reached
I prefer realtime, incremental data
Except they do release some interim data, that's the "double standard" Musk is complaining about.
In reality I agree with the NTSB here.
The NTSB saying absolutely nothing means that media speculation and rumours take over. Releasing a few facts means you can keep the reporting fairly accurate and grounded while you work on the full report.
Musk's problem is he's trying to release preliminary information in order to spin press coverage, it's not surprising that they gave him the boot.
I stole this Sig
That's how the NTSB operates - it releases preliminary information as it sees fits
... and that is ok, because unlike Tesla, NTSB has no incentive to twist the facts to fit their corporate PR agenda.
I am a Tesla owner, and normally a Tesla fanboi, but they have recently been acting like jerks. One of their customers was killed. They should be focused on fixing the issues rather than shifting blame.
They killed all the small private aircraft companies that made small planes with the active help of NTSB. Boeing liked small pesky competitors being killed off.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Heaven forbid we actually hold drivers accountable for their actions behind the wheel. If the driver isn't paying attention when they're supposed to be, it is the driver's fault.
"The Tesla Autopilot! Keep your hands on the wheel, steer and watch the road. It does the rest!"
Because that's pretty much a basic part of life?
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Except they do release some interim data, that's the "double standard" Musk is complaining about.
There's a BIG difference. Musk want's to release his data the way he wants it presented.
This is coming at a bad time for Tesla. It needs cash to stay afloat and any bad press is gonna scare away people to put more money down the Tesla sink hole.
Musk is on high damage control and he is gonna try to spin it the best way possible.
The fact is that he oversold the "Autopilot" feature and it's coming to bite him.
Once upon a time Tesla used to brag about how great their relationship was with the NTSB. That was when they were getting their "highest safety rating ever" awards. They used to claim they sent data to the NTSB before it was even asked for.
I guess those times have changed.
If Musk is correct in that the NTSB is releasing data in violation of their own rules then he has a right to bitch about it. Does anyone here know if he is correct?
At the same time I am sure that Musk/Tesla has caused the NTSB concern with their amped up PR efforts. Telsa has to respect that the NTSB can and should control the flow of information.
My guess is Musk is very sensitive to this due to the rampant bias the media has shown against Tesla at every opportunity. Sure they have fanbois but there is no question there is a significant demographic of keyboard warriors panting and slavering to get the goods on Tesla. You can see a number of them right here in this thread.
I wouldn't say it is the level of Hillary Clinton hatred but it is there. You still find people thinking Telsa's wheels are falling off all the time and fires every week. Just like you have people convinced Hillary is running a child sex slave ring. It is the nature of the beast.
They need to AVERAGE BETTER than the BEST HUMAN.
Says who?
AI is going to take over, so why not have high fucking standards?
Because delay means deaths. Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.
There's no need to rush this.
Go tell that to the 3500 families that lost a son, daughter, spouse, or parent, just TODAY.
SDCs should be on the road as soon as they are "good enough". Then they can get better with OTA software upgrades. And they will get better. How many HDC fatalities are investigated by the NTSB? Nearly zero, because we already know that a human caused almost all of them, and there is no way to "fix" humans.
So an IQ test before allowing a sale? .
Do you have a citation that IQ correlated with safe driving?
I have a high IQ, and I tend to daydream a lot. My hands may be on the wheel, and my eyes on the road, but my mind is busy elsewhere.
When SDCs are finally available, I will be first in line.
> Because Self Driving Vehicles are already safer than the AVERAGE human.
I am not sure how true that is, if you compare to cars with safety features like Automatic Emergency Braking, Lane assist, and similar features. IE Tesla claims their cars are safer in that mode, but only compared to the average person, in the average dumb car. Then compare only paved roads in a new car to all roads and cars.
I doubt the Tesla system is smart enough to take the lead from several other automakers systems. The Uber screw up also points out that more enforced standards are needed for some.
The fact of the matter is is that if this were a fire started by an electrical short and the fire marshal learned that the person who died in the fire had complained multiple times to his bosses about the light switch that tossed sparks and smoked every time he flipped it and had him on video flipping the switch a bunch of times, the fire marshal would assume arson and not accident.
Tesla should have a great deal less than 2 deaths under their belt to be on par with human safety levels.
That is a strong assertion from someone who says "I can't find any stats".
Human drivers kill about 15 people per billion miles.
Tesla Autopilot has driven more than 1.3 billion miles, and has killed two people. So the fatality rate is roughly a tenth that of humans. That is a lot better than "on par" with humans.
Shouldn't be the first and foremost use case of an 'autopilot' not to crash into any unmoving object on the road in front of the vehicle?
If an 'autopilot' cannot do that, it is useless.
Government cannot make man richer, but it can make him poorer. - Ludwig von Mises
That might be true for Waymo's self-driving tech (I don't know, because I've never been in one), but it sure as heck isn't true for Tesla's. It's a nice convenience to relieve us of some of the tedium of having to pay continuous attention to traffic when it is moving bumper-to-bumper at 10 MPH. It is halfway decent at most straight or nearly straight roadways. BUT:
In short, there are plenty of spots where it drives significantly worse than someone who has never been behind the wheel of a car before. The only way that's better than an average driver is if you're limiting the discussion to people who are out driving after 11:00 P.M. on New Year's Eve.
It is, however, usually better than a driver who is drunk or asleep or not paying attention to the road, which means it is better than the average driver at his or her worst times. That makes it useful, but only as a backup.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
The times when the car is most likely to be in danger of getting into a wreck, a human has to be in control. AP is reluctant to change lanes, cannot turn or exit at all, cannot handle stop signs or traffic lights, etc. Given those limitations, if it didn't cause an order of magnitude fewer deaths, I'd be terrified.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
"The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is an independent U.S. government investigative agency responsible for civil transportation accident investigation."
And Tesla is a company. That sells cars. Which have crashed.
One of those is qualified, able, permitted, the people who helped form the legislation, and trusted to give out limited early information that won't be contradicted by later findings and has no political, financial or other interest in anything other than the truth of how the accidents occur.
The other isn't. It's a company selling cars.
STFU and keep your head down, Tesla, or it might hurt badly when it's discovered that it WAS the fault of the car, and that you've just been trying to cover it up.
Be open but be co-operative. "We believe..." not "well, obviously, it can't have been us" before anyone's even had a chance to look.
Because if there's one organisation that can take every vehicle you make off the road, and thus bankrupt you overnight for failing to comply with its own regulations, it's the NTSB.
It's like Boeing being belligerent to the FAA etc. and interfering with a plane crash investigation.
Lawyers did not kill the private small plane industry. Less people are getting pilot certificates and there is a glut of older planes on the market---and many of those older planes will outlive their new owners.