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Einstein's 'Spooky Action' Has Been Demonstrated On a Massive Scale For the First Time (sciencealert.com)

schwit1 shares a report from ScienceAlert: For the first time, scientists have managed to show quantum entanglement -- which Einstein famously described as "spooky action at a distance" -- happening between macroscopic objects, a major step forward in our understanding of quantum physics. Quantum entanglement links particles in a way that they instantly affect each other, even over vast distances. On the surface, this powerful bond defies classical physics and, generally, our understanding of reality, which is why Einstein found it so spooky. But the phenomenon has since become a cornerstone of modern technology. Still, up until now quantum entanglement has only been demonstrated to work at the smallest of scales, in systems based on light and atoms, for example. Any attempt to increase the sizes has caused problems with stability, with the slightest of environmental disturbances breaking the connection. But new research changes all of this, by demonstrating that this "spooky action" can indeed be a reality between massive objects. We're not talking massive in the black hole sense but in the macroscopic sense -- two 15-micrometer-wide vibrating drum heads. And the next step will be to test whether those vibrations are being teleported between the two objects. The research has been published in the journal Nature.

36 of 278 comments (clear)

  1. News to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Entanglement is a cornerstone of modern technology? Say what?

  2. "Massive" scale? by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 5, Informative

    Massive is relative.

    15 micrometer is only 0.015 mm. Massive would be 1,500 meters.

    0.015 mm is massive compared to 10^-10 m.

    Context matters.

    1. Re: "Massive" scale? by Presence+Eternal · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think that's something like 60 times larger than modern transistor architecture.

      Given we're used to entanglement involving single atoms, it is astonishing in size.

    2. Re: "Massive" scale? by cb88 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      technically we have the capability to assemble single 1nm transistors since 2016... you can fit alot of transistors in 1um even at larger scales. I wonder what happens though when you entangle two circults.

      http://newscenter.lbl.gov/2016/10/06/smallest-transistor-1-nm-gate/

    3. Re:"Massive" scale? by whoever57 · · Score: 3, Funny

      As one woman tweeted (and Paul Ryan re-tweeted) it will pay for her annual Costco membership.

      To be fair, Paul Ryan probably thought the Costco membership was like his exclusive golf/country club membership: many thousands of dollars per year.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    4. Re: "Massive" scale? by mikael · · Score: 2

      It would be interesting to see if they could quantum entangle two MEMS resonant oscillators. Change the amplitude on one and the other changes amplitude. But how do you entangle them in the first place - beams of quantum entangled photons?

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    5. Re:"Massive" scale? by sconeu · · Score: 2

      No dice. Information still cannot be transmitted over the FTL channel.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    6. Re: "Massive" scale? by Lanthanide · · Score: 5, Informative

      Entanglement is poorly understood. You don't "change one and the other changes".

      Entangled particles vibrate/spin/whatever the same way. You don't know what that way of movement is until you measure it. When you measure A and discover it to be spinning clockwise (or whatever), then you also know that B is spinning clockwise. Both A and B were spinning clockwise from the time they were entangled, there is no "change" involved, just the fact that measuring the spin of A lets you also know the spin of B.

      The bottom line is you CAN'T use this to transmit information instantly across distances: if it were the case that you could cause B to spin the same way as A by changing A's spin, then you could transmit information. That's not how entanglement works.

    7. Re: "Massive" scale? by novakyu · · Score: 2

      Both A and B were spinning clockwise from the time they were entangled

      You are describing a hidden variable theory, which has been ruled out by Bell's theorem and subsequent experiments (well, the local version has been, and no one but Bohm is kooky enough to believe in non-local theories).

    8. Re: "Massive" scale? by Lanthanide · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Changing the spin of A breaks its entanglement with B.

      Based on current knowledge, you cannot transmit information using entanglement.

    9. Re: "Massive" scale? by HiThere · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Sorry, but Bell's Theorum only rules out local hidden variables. Non-local hidden variables are still within the bounds of the theory. But they're a bit weird, as they're non-local in time as well as space. I don't think the theory puts a bound on *how* non-local they can be, but a hypervolume of light years would be difficult to test. (OTOH, I'm no expert in this area. I believe that Boehm thought they were global rather than just non-local...but that was decades ago, and things may have been found out since then. OTOH, perhaps it's really implied by the theorum.)

      Still, my favorite interpretation is EWG multi-world rather than hidden variables. For parsimony I add a supposition that I can't justify which is that in addition of the state space transitioning to all possible futures, it also arrives from all possible pasts, giving a lattice rather than a tree. I've got a vague feeling that this may determine the existence and strengthening of dark energy since all the pasts still exist in the hypervolume of the universe. You just can't go into the past because all of your particles have an inertial velocity along the time axis resulting from the big bang. If this *can* be made sensible, somebody much better at that kind of math than I am would need to tackle it. But it explains the rotation of the space-time axis as you accelerate near to the speed of light, or at least I think it does. I'm not quite clear how many dimensions this idea of the universe would require, but I'm sure it's less than the 16 that were used in deriving relativity, so it could probably fit into the same framework.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    10. Re: "Massive" scale? by HiThere · · Score: 2

      Well, not quite. You change the state of an atomic particle when you measure it, but that's because your sensor is so gross when compared to the mass of the thing being measured. I'm not sure what would happen with things microns in diameter.

      Also, you don't change the state of the other particle, by measuring one particle you KNOW something about the state of the other particle. You can't really say you've changed it, since you previously had no idea of its state. And in the traditional examples by selecting which feature to measure, you determine which feature of the other particle is determined. Sometimes this seems spooky to me, and sometimes it seems trivially obvious, and I'm never sure which time I'm closer to understanding what's going on. I think (at the moment) that if I think of quantum actions as random, then it's spooky, but if I think of them as deterministic then it's trivially obvious. Several times I've heard claims (by people who should know) that quantum actions are deterministic in a higher dimensional space that seems random when we look at them because of the loss of information in the projection onto the lower dimensional space. At least I think that's what they were saying. OTOH, these claims never seem to get much acceptance by other people who should know. I'm not expert enough to have a defensible opinion.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    11. Re: "Massive" scale? by HiThere · · Score: 2

      I don't think anyone has designed a system that could, even in principle, use entanglement to transmit communications FTL. I know at least one person tried, and didn't succeed while I was in contact with him.

      Please note: I'm not saying they didn't succeed in building such a device, I'm saying that, assuming they had a bunch of entangled bits in separate locations, they still couldn't design a device that would work. Some people have claimed that this is, in principle, impossible, and they may be right. Being used in a science fiction story isn't really much of an argument for it's plausibility.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    12. Re: "Massive" scale? by ByteSlicer · · Score: 2

      Both A and B were spinning clockwise from the time they were entangled, there is no "change" involved, just the fact that measuring the spin of A lets you also know the spin of B.

      Actually, no. A key property of quantum particles is that their quantum states are undetermined until locked down by measurement.

      So at the time of entanglement, A will have undetermined spin S and B will have undetermined spin S'. Once S and S' are measured, they will turn out to be strongly correlated. Measuring S will randomly determine its value (and that of S') within the probabilities set by the wave function of the entangled system (A, B). Because the wave function collapse is random, it's impossible to set a value at either side, and thus transmit information.

    13. Re: "Massive" scale? by swillden · · Score: 2, Informative

      Both A and B were spinning clockwise from the time they were entangled, there is no "change" involved, just the fact that measuring the spin of A lets you also know the spin of B.

      Nit: They have opposite spin, not the same spin.

      You're citing the "hidden variable" theory, which has been definitively disproven. An oversimplified-to-the-point-of-being-wrong explanation: There are multiple possible axes of measurement and it's impossible for the two particles to have opposite spin in all of them. Yet when we measure one particle in one axis, then measure the other in the same axis, we find that they always have opposite spin, regardless of which axis we picked.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    14. Re: "Massive" scale? by ras · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In most ways it's not different. All these "entanglements" are just the basic laws of physics in action. So for example spin is conserved, so if two photons are created and speed away in opposite directions the laws of physics their spins must add up to 0. Therefore you measure the spin of one as 1, the spin of the other must be -1.

      The issue as the physicists see it is a quantum variable is doesn't exist until it's measured, where "doesn't exist" means can have no effect on the universe. Although instead of "doesn't exist or has no value" they like to say it is a superposition of all possible values. Another way of saying the same thing is the particle has no idea what it's quantum values are because if it did it would behave differently. The classic example is the double slit experiment, where a photon very confused about where it is and forms an interference pattern. But if you measure where it is before it gets to the slits so it (and you) know the values of quantum variables, the pattern disappears.

      The point is, before you measured it the spin on your photon didn't have a value. And that's true for it's entanglements partner too. Then you measure it and now you know. But it's entangled particular also knows its spin at the same instant, and starts behaving like it does. (Because if it didn't the laws of the universe would break down, eg charge or momentum wouldn't be conserved.) But if it's outside the light cone how could it know what the value it must take on to so the laws of universe aren't broken? It can't, so it must be spooky action at a distance.

      The term "local hidden variable" is an explanation for how this happened. It means the photon knew all along what's spin was, but it was cleverly hiding it in this hidden variable. The key point here is it's value was computed at the moment of entanglement. It was hidden from then on until you measure it, but the value was agreed upon when the particles were entangled, and entanglement always happens when they are together, communicating. Global hidden variable is another explanation - it means the whole universe knew, which when you think about is means there is communication fast than light, because otherwise how could it be "global"?.

      The local hidden variable sounds like the simplest explanation. The original reason said they said is doesn't work is Bells inequality. It may be still only be Bells inequality - I don't know if anybody has actually seen the double slit effect disappear for an entangled photon when it's mate is measured. I hope there is something more convincing now, because Bells inequality is a subtle argument.

      It arises because quantum values are distinctly weird. Take spin for example. In the classic worked, you can look at something spinning and see what axis it is spinning around. In quantum world you can't do that. All you can do is point a ruler in a direction, compare the axis the photon spinning around to the direction this ruler is pointing. (You have to adopt an convention that describes the direction of spin - say ruler pointing up means spinning clockwise, down means counter clockwise on the same axis.) Worse when you point the ruler and ask the question, you force the photons spin to align with the ruler - so the measurement changes the thing being measured. But you do get something out of it - you are told whether the spin now (after it was changed by you observing it) agrees with the direction your ruler is pointing (up or down). So you get a single boolean answer, and that's all you get. But your measure is real and repeatable in the sense that if you do it again with the ruler aligned in the same way, you will get the same answer every time (because remember the spin is now aligned with your ruler). And if you measure it a again with the ruler pointed in the opposite direction (eg up instead of down), you will get the reverse answer every time. This sounds intuitively correct, and it's also somewhat intuitive that if you ruler isn't parallel it isn't entirely obvious

    15. Re: "Massive" scale? by GuB-42 · · Score: 5, Informative

      A very important part of the delayed choice quantum eraser experiment that is not always mentioned is the coincidence counter. And this is what prevents instant transmission of information.

      The experiment is often described as "create a pair of entangled particles, do weird stuff and see where each particle go". But the truth is: most particles involved in the experiment aren't actually entangled, so if you just look at the detectors, the only thing you see is noise. You need the coincidence counter to tell you that two blips in the noise pattern are actually two entangled particles, but only after the two have arrived. That's the important part, you only know after the fact, you can't watch the thing happen.

      You can't use a delayed choice quantum eraser to build a useful machine that allows you to transfer data faster than light. With the current understanding of physics, it is simply impossible, and no experiment disproved that. The "information traveled back in time" interpretation is just one of many.

      Currently, science isn't settled on a correct interpretation of quantum mechanics. In fact, scientists have no fucking idea how all that stuff work. The maths work, experiments match predictions, engineers put it to good use, but we don't know how to interpret the results.

    16. Re: "Massive" scale? by Baloroth · · Score: 2

      If you won't, I will: they didn't succeed in building such a device. They can't, entanglement just doesn't work that way. See the no-communication theorem, which mathematically proves that entanglement is a no-go as far as FTL communication is concerned. Actually, it's worse than that: entanglement alone cannot send information, any information, ever (you can with quantum "teleportation", but that relies on using a classical channel as well as entanglement, and those always travel at or less than the speed of light).

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    17. Re: "Massive" scale? by jd · · Score: 2

      Incorrect.

      Quantum entanglement may be limited the same way the Pauli exclusion principle is.

      Second, if ER=EPR, and that seems likely, then the speed of light is not violated except in the long-obsolete pre-relativity 3+1 model of the universe.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    18. Re: "Massive" scale? by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      I'm not an expert, but I won't let that stop me.

      We know that there is no local determinism, from Bell's Theorem and subsequent experiments. Those sorts of theories are hidden-variable theories. It's possible that everything's determinate on a global scale, but that goes a bit too far for most physicists. If particles were multidmensional things that have apparently random behavior when projected into our spacetime, the multidimensional things themselves aren't deterministic.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    19. Re: "Massive" scale? by jwhyche · · Score: 2

      So, can I put the cat in the box now?

      --
      I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
  3. Soooo spoooooky? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    >which is why Einstein found it so spooky

    Which is why you have no clue what Einstein was talking about. He wasn't spooked you knucklehead, he was mocking it as magic.

  4. Cornerstone of modern technology? by Pulzar · · Score: 2

    But the phenomenon has since become a cornerstone of modern technology.

    Did I miss a bunch of modern technology development?

    --
    Never underestimate the bandwidth of a 747 filled with CD-ROMs.
    1. Re:Cornerstone of modern technology? by Pseudonym · · Score: 2

      "Cornerstone" is probably stating it a bit strongly, but superconductors are mainstream now, and SQUIDs in particular are very important to the modern world.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
  5. Re:"Spooky Action" by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 4, Funny

    It's just our 12-dimensional overlords toying with us.

  6. Fundamental misunderstanding of entanglement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    >"In quantum teleportation, properties of physical bodies can be transmitted across arbitrary distances using the channel of 'spooky action at a distance'," says one of the team, Caspar Ockeloen-Korppi from Aalto University in Finland.

    This is a fundamental misunderstanding of entanglement. It is not a mechanism for teleportation, it is a dual destination verification mechanism (ie. one must be opposite the other if they maintain entanglement). You cannot set the value at one end and have it appear on the other.

    1. Re:Fundamental misunderstanding of entanglement by FranklinWebber · · Score: 2, Informative

      You are right about quantum entanglement. But the team member was talking about quantum teleportation, not just entanglement, and I suspect that you misunderstand the difference.

      'You cannot set the value at one end and have it appear on the other.'

      Right, about entanglement.

      'properties of physical bodies can be transmitted across arbitrary distances'

      Right, where the properties are quantum states.

      'This is a fundamental misunderstanding of entanglement.'

      No, it's not. Quantum teleportation depends on having an entangled state, which is used to move some other quantum state from here to there. It also depends on sending some information from here to there in another communication channel, possibly classical (i.e., non-quantum). I suggest you read more about quantum teleportation, e.g.:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

  7. For us laymen by raymorris · · Score: 4, Funny

    For those of us who don't know enough to really understand it, we can think of it like a cat.
      You pull the cat's tail on one end, the cat meows on the other end. Quantum entanglement is exactly like that. Except there is no cat.

    (The above is an old description of radio, often attributed to Einstein. Doesn't sound like Einstein's sense of humor, though.)

  8. Re:Is this faster than light? by Trogre · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actual physicists, please correct me if I'm wrong:

    Yes it apparently is faster than light in a vacuum, but it doesn't seem to matter. The change in spin happens instantaneously at both places, but since you can't deliberately change the spin yourself, merely observe it, no information is actually propagated. Thus you're not transmitting anything faster than light, and the universe therefore doesn't explode.

    --
    "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
  9. Clarification needed by FranklinWebber · · Score: 4, Informative

    I find the summary in great need of clarification. Let me attempt to clarify it in the hope that will be useful to other readers.

    First, the linked article links to a much better summary written by one of the team members, Matt Woolley. I recommend you read it instead:
    https://theconversation.com/ex...

    Second, the summary conflates *mass* with *distance*. The experimenters claim to have entangled remarkably massive objects (compared to the mass of atoms, for example). But the summary says 'any attempt to increase the sizes has caused problems with stability' and that, taken literally, is not true. For example, here's an experiment from 1998 in which entanglement was maintained over a distance of kilometers:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    Finally, the summary claims 'a major step forward in our understanding of quantum physics' but I doubt that. It sounds to me like a major accomplishment but one that *confirms* our previous understanding of quantum physics in more massive systems.

  10. Re:Cold Fusion Rides Again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's not quite the same as the cold fusion. With cold fusion there wasn't any cold fusion and some combination of noise and bad experimental setup made it look like there was. With entanglement, the entanglement part is not actually science. There isn't any way to disprove that measuring one particle affects the other particle. Science requires that a hypothesis be falsifiable.

  11. Re:Is this faster than light? by Jeremi · · Score: 5, Informative

    Or try this older-technology test, which is equivalent:

    1) Obtain two empty boxes
    2) Into the first box, place a red marble and a blue marble
    3) Put on a blindfold so you can't see anything
    4) While blindfolded, reach into the box with the marbles and take out one of the marbles, and put it into the other box
    5) Close both boxes and seal them shut
    6) Remove the blindfold
    7) Mail one of the boxes to Alpha Centauri
    8) When it gets there, open the box you didn't mail, and note what color marble is in it
    9) Enjoy the "faster than light communication" -- you just "instantaneously" learned the color of a marble located four light years away!

    --


    I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
  12. Re: Massive Scale? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Convert it into Planck lengths and you'll see.

  13. Re:Spooky action but value was encoded before it l by chittychitty!! · · Score: 2

    Actually, not quite. For the analogy to work, each half of the coin is equally heads and tails until the measurement. Only the entanglement itself (i.e. that one is opposite the other) was encoded in the envelope to begin with.
    We might need another analogy. Consider Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton as entangled particles guaranteed to hold opposite views on any given topic. With Hillary in New York and Donald in Los Angeles, ask Donald a question about one of the few things he has no opinion on. Until you ask, nobody (including Donald and Hillary) can know what his answer will be. But as soon as you ask and he answers, we Know what Hillary thinks about the subject as well.
    Now, at this point, Donald and Hillary have taken Stands on the issue. Before the question was asked, each of them equally supported and opposed the issue. Once the question was asked, one fully supported and the other fully opposed the issue. If you then manage to convince Donald to change his mind, your efforts destroy the entanglement, so it will not change Hillary's opinion.

  14. Re:Is this faster than light? by religionofpeas · · Score: 2

    You ignores the very basic idea of entanglement that is: "If I change a property of a entangled particle (spin, polarization, etc), that state automatically reflects on the other particle".

    That's not how it works. You can read a property of a particle, and learn something about its entangled pair.

    But if you change a property, you break the entanglement.

  15. Re:Is this faster than light? by Cacadril · · Score: 4, Informative

    Improving the analogy a little:

    1. Get two WHITE marbles, each with the property that if you shake it, it will randomly turn blue or red.
    2. Put the marbles in boxes and mail one box to Alpha Centauri. Wait until you know it has arrived.
    3. Open your box and shake your marble, and watch it become red. Now you know that the other marble will turn blue, or already turned blue as your fellow Alpha Centauri scientist shakes or shook his marble. This is because of a law of nature dictating that the total number of blue and red marbles in the Universe must balance.

    Nobody can tell in a meaningful way who shook his marble first. Depending on the velocity of the observer, it could be either one of you who "instantly" programmed the other marble to assume the opposite color. (This is the part that most people forget when describing the spooky instantaneous, FTL action at a distance.)

    Remember once more, none of you had any control over what color your marble turned.

    Anyone of you may instead paint your marble to force it into the color of your preference, but that breaks the quantum spooky action at a distance. If/when your fellow shakes his marble, it may assume any color. But your fellow won't know the difference until you tell him that you cheated.

    If you later communicate with your fellow and learn that his marble turned the wrong color, it just means that the marbles failed to become properly entangled.

    --
    There is no substitute for common sense. Especially, no body of rules will do.