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Volkswagen, Audi Cars Vulnerable To Remote Hacking (bleepingcomputer.com)

An anonymous reader writes: "A Dutch cyber-security firm has discovered that in-vehicle infotainment (IVI) systems deployed with some car models from the Volkswagen Group are vulnerable to remote hacking," reports Bleeping Computer. The vulnerabilities have been successfully tested and verified on Volkswagen Golf GTE and Audi A3 Sportback e-tron models. Researchers say they were able to hack the cars via both WiFi (remote vector) and USB (local vector) connections. Researchers hinted they could have also went after the cars' braking and acceleration system, but stopped due to fear of breaking VW's intellectual property on those systems.

"Under certain conditions attackers could listen in to conversations the driver is conducting via a car kit, turn the microphone on and off, as well as gaining access to the complete address book and the conversation history," Computest researchers said in their paper. "Furthermore, due to the vulnerability, there is the possibility of discovering through the navigation system precisely where the driver has been, and to follow the car live wherever it is at any given time," researchers added. VW deployed patches.

44 of 75 comments (clear)

  1. Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Those infotainment systems were once made by QNX under Harman Becker, now owned by Blackberry. I bet they're still doing them. This is actually surprising to me, as QNX is known for better work than that. If these car companies switched to a different dashboard maker, QNX should jump in at the marketing opportunity.

    1. Re:Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Other than a feed of +12V, a signal line from the steering wheel controls, ground, and maybe a data signal from a rear-view camera, why does the "infotainment" system need to talk to the rest of the car at all?

    2. Re:Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by ELCouz · · Score: 1

      HVAC controls and stuff... never been in a recent car lately eh?

    3. Re:Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      VW products generally have separate (knob) HVAC controls, not the integrated junk that many other manufactures have stuck their customers with.

      I've been in new cars -- driving them has mostly made me want to beat the hell out of some of the people that engineered them.

    4. Re:Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Most of which is useless crap that doesn't belong in a car. iPhone app to start/unlock the car? Fuck that idea with a jackhammer. That means that the car and iPhone likely talk through the auto company's servers, and the car company can track, unlock, and disable the car 24/7. Yuck.

      GPS is pointless in 2018 since talking phones do a better job than most car GPS units.

    5. Re:Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by jrumney · · Score: 2
      QNX is an operating system. It may provide the fundamentals required to secure the system, but it doesn't magically make the software running on top of it secure.

      But nothing that they accomplished supports the outlandish claim that they could have messed with the brakes, "but stopped due to fear of breaking VWs intellectual property on those systems." If they reverse engineered the the Wifi and USB protocols for controlling the unit, they have likely "broken VWs intellectual property" already, but accessing data that is normally under control of the infotainment system proves nothing about how secure the safety systems of the car are against remote attack.

    6. Re:Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

      Cell connection, IPv6, encrypted direct connection to your phone. No "clown" intermediate required if done right.

      Not that you should be idling for 10-15 minutes before driving off. Waste of fuel, probably a fire and CO hazard. Seat heaters warm up very quickly -- no need to "pre-warm" the car, and if you can't handle 5 minutes of 0 degree air temps, you're a weakling, sorry to say.

    7. Re:Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by CaffeinatedBacon · · Score: 1

      Will the engine even start by remote? In the Audi's I've seen, even pushing the start button wont start the engine if you don't also put your foot on the brake. It just turns on the accessories.

    8. Re:Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      the outlandish claim that they could have messed with the brakes, "but stopped due to fear of breaking VWs intellectual property on those systems."

      Yeah that's the nonsense quote of the week.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    9. Re:Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      I assure you that the black hats are mighty worried about the GDPR at the moment, and are far to distracted to mess with VW's intellectual property.

      Meanwhile, I will continue to use my mechanically injected diesel - plenty of black smoke and no NOx.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    10. Re:Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by Zorpheus · · Score: 1

      The access of the infotainment system to other parts of the car is very restricted. It is absolutely not unexpected that someone breaks into the infotainment system, but they should not get further from there. These researchers have not even tried, so this article is just sensational.

    11. Re:Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Black hats are worried about GDPR? Really? Why?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    12. Re:Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Why do you think it's called an "info" tainment instead of "entertainment" system? Because is displays a random wikipedia page on startup?

    13. Re:Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by froggyjojodaddy · · Score: 1

      I don't know about Audi's but certainly in newer Fords you can remote start the car from a phone app. The car has some built in cellular service so it can communicate with the app as long as it is in coverage.

      It's a gimmick - kinda. I've only used it once to remote start the car and turn on the air conditioning on a really hot day while I was still 10km away on the train travelling back to the train station. When I approached the car, it was clearly running and inside was nice and cool. However, there's also options within the car that allow you to 'pre-set' the climate control with timings so if you know you'll be back at the station for 5pm, you can pre-program the air-con to start at 4:30pm, thereby negating the need for an app to remote start the car for you.

      BTW, it's a hybrid so it was running off battery power during the remote start - wasn't just sitting there idling the gas engine.

    14. Re:Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by mjwx · · Score: 2

      VW products generally have separate (knob) HVAC controls, not the integrated junk that many other manufactures have stuck their customers with.

      As do BMWs, Toyotas, Mercedes, Hondas Jaguars (that is pronounced Jag-U-ar, if we called it Jagwar, we'd spell it that way), in fact most new cars retain physical knobs, switches and buttons for the HVAC, Radio and other things you use on the move. Most British, Asian and German manufacturers do, its only the Americans who think different (OK, I haven't driven a new French car and frankly, never plan to). Journalists call this a "dated interior" though.

      Only crappy manufacturers have swallowed the touchscreen hype and moved these functions behind them, the sad part is auto journalists are all too happy to felate anyone doing this. On my 2 series the touchscreen was an option (which I didn't pay for), if it had of been mandatory I would have walked out of the dealer (I almost did after feeling how lifeless an automatic M240i was, fortunately I bought a manual and it's a completely different car).

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    15. Re:Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by clodney · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Other than a feed of +12V, a signal line from the steering wheel controls, ground, and maybe a data signal from a rear-view camera, why does the "infotainment" system need to talk to the rest of the car at all?

      The most pragmatic reason is that wiring harnesses in cars are complex and expensive, and replacing a bunch of point to point wires with a data bus makes the car cheaper and easier to build. And once you have everything connected to a data bus, why not put the UI for many of those items on the thing with the biggest display and most available controls, like the infotainment system.

      And my car has lots of settings that you may not think are worthwhile, but that I appreciate. Like to unlock all 4 doors when I touch the door handle, and to fold in the mirrors when I park. Things that may not be everyone's preference, but I like my bells and whistles.

      My car has multiple cameras, and when the car is in reverse it shows me the rear view camera - so it needs to know transmission indicators. And it automatically turns off the cameras when I reach a certain forward speed, so it needs to know the speedometer reading. And since it has no physical gauges on the dash, the whole driver display is nothing but an LCD screen, so it needs to know speed, RPM, gas gauge, temperature, cruise control settings, etc.

      Maybe not to your taste, but definitely to mine.

    16. Re:Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by CaffeinatedBacon · · Score: 1

      Ok thanks, that's certainly interesting. I wonder if it would still do that if it wasn't a hybrid running off the battery.

    17. Re: Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Thanks to your snobbery in regards to pronunciation Americans now pronounce Jaguar like "jaggy wire."

      I can't even begin to tell you how much I hate you now.

    18. Re: Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      Between your description of these bells and whistles and my time working at the car wash, I gather you drive a Chevy. I can confirm for you each bell and each whistle will be broken about the time of next year's model. Although I consider the temperature controls broken to begin with, even the physical ones they still use in some models. They simply don't measure up to old fashioned knobs in tactile feedback, speed, or precision of operation.

    19. Re: Is this still QNX/Blackberry? by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Thanks to your snobbery in regards to pronunciation Americans now pronounce Jaguar like "jaggy wire."

      I can't even begin to tell you how much I hate you now.

      Good, let your hate teach you how to pronounce Jaguar properly.

      I on the other hand with smirk with mild amusement and drink tea. Toodle pipsky.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  2. The address book? TF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Under certain conditions attackers could listen in to conversations the driver is conducting via a car kit, turn the microphone on and off, as well as gaining access to the complete address book and the conversation history,"

    Why in the fuck does the car have an "address book" or a microphone?

    My 1999 Ford gets me around just fine without a microphone or an address book.

    What's next? A video camera pointed at the driver so people can take selfies and live stream themselves while they drive around? An in-dash scrolling facebook update for the addicts?

    Has the world gone totally crazy now?

  3. Re:The address book? TF? by jonwil · · Score: 1

    Many people happen to like the fact that you can link your phone to your car via Bluetooth and then make completly hands-free phone calls.

  4. Re:The address book? TF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Many people like meth. Doesn't make it a good idea.

    Hang up and drive.

  5. They could? They could have tried by Zorpheus · · Score: 2

    The brake system is pretty well secured from the infotainment system, exactly because infotaintment systems are often not 100% secure.
    They could have tried to go after the brake system, but I doubt they would have been successful.

    1. Re:They could? They could have tried by Zorpheus · · Score: 2

      So the headline is sensational rubbish btw.

    2. Re:They could? They could have tried by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The brake system is pretty well secured from the infotainment system, exactly because infotaintment systems are often not 100% secure.

      Actually, critical systems like brakes are on a separate CAN bus than the normal crap to prevent a DoS attack from making you crash. However, both CAN busses are connected to the ECU. Hacking an ECU via CAN bus isn't a new trick.

      They could have tried to go after the brake system, but I doubt they would have been successful.

      They aren't blackhats, so attacking the ECU was never their objective. Instead, they successfully demonstrated significant vulnerabilities in the wireless systems which could enable remote attacks.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    3. Re:They could? They could have tried by crimson+tsunami · · Score: 1

      You are one of those even rarer people who can't press the off button. The market for people who can buy and drive a car but who can't turn off music must be vanishingly small. It's no wonder you couldn't find a vehicle manufacturer catering to your extremely small market niche.

    4. Re:They could? They could have tried by Zorpheus · · Score: 1

      Of course there have been holes in the CAM bus separation of cars before, but they can't just assume that there is one. The entertainment system is not assumed to be safe, the CAN bus separation is. These guys have not achieved anything that is not planned for.

    5. Re:They could? They could have tried by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      The point wasn't to impress you by wrecking the car, it was the compromise the security of the car's computer network which is exactly what was done. Stop moving the goal posts.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    6. Re:They could? They could have tried by Zorpheus · · Score: 1

      Who placed that goal post?

    7. Re:They could? They could have tried by Zorpheus · · Score: 1

      It's just that I had extensive discussions in Germany years ago, where everyone agreed that Wifi on cars is a security risk,especially since these systems are rarely patched. And the conclusion was that it is not an issue because of the CAN bus separation, although there were some issues with that found and fixed. This was before this topic even came up here.

    8. Re:They could? They could have tried by nhtshot · · Score: 1

      On some cars there are gateways between the distinct CAN busses but often they don't do as much intelligent filtering as they should.

      I can only speak with authority for Ford and VW/Audi/Porsche cars. VW/Audi/Porsche most certainly have one of these gateways between the can busses and it's quite good. In this case, we're talking about powertrain can and convenience can. The only messages allowed to pass between those are status updates from the ECU to convenience (engine RPM, temperatures, etc.. for the instrument cluster and some radios that can display vehicle stats), setting change messages from the radio to the body control module and ECU/TCU (sport/eco mode) and cruise control messages from the steering wheel controls.

      No other messages will pass the gateway between those two busses.

      So, the best they could have achieved if they completely own3d the infotainment system would be to possibly adjust the cruise control settings. Even that is speculative because I believe the steering wheel controls are now on a separate lin bus, which would eliminate that vector. They couldn't affect the brakes. They probably could switch between eco and sport modes or adjust the ride height on the higher end Audi's that have airbags. They might also be able to get the windshield wipers into service mode (they move to the top of their stroke and stop there).

      So, ya, I think the headline is click baity. Also, "we didn't want to violate VWs IP" is a crock, by their definition of that, they did it already when they violated the radio to find the exploit. I would wager that they tried to do more but failed and CTA with this statement.

  6. Re:The address book? TF? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    Doesn't need an address book if the interface is properly designed. It should just pass a command: "call John Smith" or "call 202-555-1212" to the phone itself. No need to save any data in the car itself.

  7. Re:Smart cars are not so smart by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    Of course, but automakers want to jump in on the whole "cloud" trend. If they know where their cars are, they can target marketing at consumers or even sell consumers' location data. Or "help them in case of an accident", though that doesn't actually need info about location until after the accident happens.

  8. Re:The address book? TF? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 2

    I do just that - but I do NOT need to share my address book and other stuff with my car. Just pair versus Bluetooth so I can use the car's microphone and speakers during calls. Nothing else needs to be exchanged to make it work.

    --
    Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  9. Re:The address book? TF? by haruchai · · Score: 1

    "A video camera pointed at the driver so people can take selfies and live stream themselves while they drive around?"

    The car's AI may also use such a camera to detect if the driver is conscious, alert or impaired

    --
    Pain is merely failure leaving the body
  10. Shielded from harm by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 4, Funny

    Researchers hinted they could have also went after the cars' braking and acceleration system, but stopped due to fear of breaking VW's intellectual property on those systems.

    This is yet another example of how strong IP laws can help to protect a nations' citizens from evildoers.

    1. Re:Shielded from harm by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Researchers hinted they could have also went after the cars' braking and acceleration system, but stopped due to fear of breaking VW's intellectual property on those systems.

      This is yet another example of how strong IP laws can help to protect a nations' citizens from evildoers.

      Yes, hardened criminals intent on stealing your car will be stopped dead in their tracks by our onerous IP laws. Score one for the good guys.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  11. But could you hack them by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    .. to make them emissions compliant?

  12. Re:The address book? TF? by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 2

    Its catch 22: if he wants a camera pointed at him, he IS mentally impaired.

    --
    Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
  13. "they could have also went after" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "they could have also GONE after", I think you'll find...

  14. Re:USB by sinij · · Score: 1

    WiFi range is a big deal. This could be anyone in an unmarked van 30 meters (or more if they use directional antenna) in front of you on a busy highway that could potentially force your car to slam on the brakes just as you entering a corner, forcing a skid and a general life-threatening wreck.

  15. Re:USB by sinij · · Score: 1

    Expecting journalists to accurately report on technology-intensive topics was empirically shown to be unreasonable.

    As Charlie Miller and Chris Valasek showed with their work culminating in sensational remote hacking of a Jeep Cherokee driven by a volunteering journalist, the key issue is that hackable infotainment units are capable of impacting other systems on the car's CAN bus. See Remote Exploitation of an Unaltered Passenger Vehicle for details.

    That was a known issue in 2015. There is simply no excuses to still make the same mistakes in 2018. This is not unlike releasing a protocol library that is still vulnerable to Logjam.

  16. Re:The address book? TF? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

    I just dial by voice... Works really well!

    --
    Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!