One Of LLVM's Top Contributors Quits Development Over Code of Conduct, Outreach Program (phoronix.com)

All we need are healing hugs by Anonymous Coward · 2018-05-03 04:48 · Score: 5, Funny

His loss is of great benefit, in the long run. Anyone who would get mad like this is unfit for software development in the modern world. LLVM needs more hugs and less time and focus spent on boring old dry compiler code.

Re:All we need are healing hugs by psm321 · 2018-05-03 05:01 · Score: 4, Funny

Careful, hugs may violate a code of conduct!
Re:All we need are healing hugs by GWBasic · 2018-05-03 05:59 · Score: 5, Informative

He's leaving because the intern program openly discriminates based on gender, sexual orientation, or ancestry. Basically, they won't hire a white American male as an intern. (See https://www.outreachy.org/appl...)

--
No, I will not work for your startup
Re:All we need are healing hugs by PhrostyMcByte · 2018-05-03 06:27 · Score: 4, Informative

He's leaving because the intern program openly discriminates based on gender, sexual orientation, or ancestry. Basically, they won't hire a white American male as an intern.
You're pointing to a specific outreach program, not to LLVM's entire intern program.
Re:All we need are healing hugs by Anonymous Coward · 2018-05-03 07:08 · Score: 4, Informative

No, he was pointing to the generic Outreachy program rules. The rules that ALL partner orgs, such as LLVM, must adhere to. Did you not even bother to read before commenting?
The LLVM COC tolerates both racism and sexism as long as they are committed against a white male.
From the LLVM COC:
Our open source community prioritizes marginalized people’s safety over privileged people’s comfort. We will not act on complaints regarding:
‘Reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’ and ‘cisphobia’
Reasonable communication of boundaries, such as “leave me alone,” “go away,” or “I’m not discussing this with you”
Refusal to explain or debate social justice concepts
Communicating in a ‘tone’ you don’t find congenial
Criticizing racist, sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions
Re:All we need are healing hugs by squiggleslash · 2018-05-03 08:00 · Score: 4, Insightful

It's not an attempt to fight bigotry with worse bigotry, it's an attempt to fight intentional or unintentional discrimination with a small amount of discrimination in the other direction.
I don't know where you're getting "bigotry" from, and I can't imagine why you think a small effort to encourage underrepresented groups into a project is somehow worse than overwhelming systemic efforts to channel only a privileged minority into it.
I am not making a judgment here about whether it's a good idea, but it's absolutely not worse than the system it's trying to undo, and it has nothing to do with bigotry.

--
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Re:All we need are healing hugs by ShanghaiBill · 2018-05-03 08:28 · Score: 2

You're pointing to a specific outreach program, not to LLVM's entire intern program.
The link points to an ad that is blatantly ILLEGAL under American law.
Prohibited Practices: It is illegal for an employer to publish a job advertisement that shows a preference for or discourages someone from applying for a job because of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information.
Re:All we need are healing hugs by Bruce+Perens · 2018-05-03 10:43 · Score: 4, Informative

Note that the US Government's directions on how to operate an affirmative action program are here. People who tell you it's prohibited are distorting a little snippet of the law to deceive you.

--
Bruce Perens.
Re:All we need are healing hugs by UsuallyReasonable · 2018-05-05 10:50 · Score: 2

Your definitional argument is bullshit. Not being inclusive toward me because of my gender or skin color IS discrimination.

Thread Root on LLVM's mailing list by Anonymous Coward · 2018-05-03 04:51 · Score: 2, Informative

Much better to get this from the horses mouth, instead of Phoronix - http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2018-May/122922.html

Re:Thread Root on LLVM's mailing list by Orgasmatron · 2018-05-03 05:10 · Score: 4, Informative

Link and excerpt:

The reason for me leaving are the changes in the community. The current license change discussions unfortunately bring to memory the fsf politics when I was working on gcc. That would still not be sufficient reason to leave. As with the code, llvm will still have the best license and if the only community change was the handling of the license change I would probably keep going.
The community change I cannot take is how the social injustice movement has permeated it. When I joined llvm no one asked or cared about my religion or political view. We all seemed committed to just writing a good compiler framework.
Somewhat recently a code of conduct was adopted. It says that the community tries to welcome people of all "political belief". Except those whose political belief mean that they don't agree with the code of conduct. Since agreement is required to take part in the conferences, I am no longer able to attend.
The last drop was llvm associating itself with an organization that openly discriminates based on sex and ancestry (1,2). This goes directly against my ethical views and I think I must leave the project to not be associated with this.
So long, and thanks for all the bugs,
Rafael

--
See that "Preview" button?
Re:Thread Root on LLVM's mailing list by Tailhook · 2018-05-03 05:55 · Score: 2

Much better to get this from the horses mouth
Indeed. The first thing you'll spot when you go to the primary source is that he doesn't want to be required to sign the "code of conduct" to attend LLVM conferences. Nice how that is left out of the Phoronix story and this summary. Beyond that he points out exclusionary paid internships he doesn't care to support.

--
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
Re:Thread Root on LLVM's mailing list by BlueStrat · 2018-05-03 06:21 · Score: 3, Funny

If he is anti-social-justice he must be shunned anyway, this simply saves llvm from having to kick him out.
The problem I see is he could possibly join another project or be hired by some corporation and that must be prevented. Anyone who rejects the social justice movement is unfit to fill any role in a civilized society except that of prison inmate or involuntary organ donor. There is no room for patriarchal white supremacist cis-gendered Neanderthals in a civilized society.
Found the UC-Berkeley "Diversity" administrator!
Strat

--
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.

Outreach by DaMattster · 2018-05-03 04:52 · Score: 2, Insightful

I think outreach is a good thing. I don't see how actively encouraging diversity is a bad thing. I do believe that prolonged preferential treatment given to one population over another is not good. There are good reasons for short term preferential treatment in order to build a diversity, but after a while, preferential treatment versus evaluating someone based on their merits, causes problems.

Re:Outreach by Vapula · 2018-05-03 05:06 · Score: 5, Interesting

Well what outreach does is nothing but discrimination... and is somehow as bad as other discriminating behaviour...
and Outreach can backfire... The one hired thanks to Outreach may be felt as inferior who needed to put their "diversity" in front to get a job because he is lacking true skills...
Outreach is a bad idea...

LLVM code of conduct by Brannon · 2018-05-03 04:52 · Score: 2, Insightful

So he's leaving because the "LLVM code of conduct" says incendiary things like "Be friendly and patient." and "Be careful in the words that you choose and be kind to others".

Oh, and they're participating in an outreach program to encourage under-represented demographics to participate in open source project.

I guess that was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Re:LLVM code of conduct by Bruce+Perens · 2018-05-03 05:11 · Score: 5, Interesting

I have recently seen a high-profile community project where a key engineer believed (among other things) women should be shielded and kept at home. This engineer, obviously, had conflicts with people in the organization. Actually maybe about 30 people. Eventually, the membership walked off en mass and founded their own project. The new project has essentially the same code of conduct we're discussing here.
You need rules on paper for when stuff like this happens. It helps make slippery stuff like who offended who and whether such offense is out of scope for the project a lot easier to decide.

--
Bruce Perens.
Re:LLVM code of conduct by Anonymous Coward · 2018-05-03 05:13 · Score: 4, Informative

Wrong. He's leaving because of crap like this.
From the LLVM COC:
Our open source community prioritizes marginalized people’s safety over privileged people’s comfort. We will not act on complaints regarding:
‘Reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’ and ‘cisphobia’
Reasonable communication of boundaries, such as “leave me alone,” “go away,” or “I’m not discussing this with you”
Refusal to explain or debate social justice concepts
Communicating in a ‘tone’ you don’t find congenial
Criticizing racist, sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions
Quit being a tool.
Re:LLVM code of conduct by 110010001000 · 2018-05-03 05:14 · Score: 3, Interesting

Maybe YOU need rules on paper, but some of us are all grown up and don't need a piece of paper to tell us how we should behave.
Re:LLVM code of conduct by Altus · 2018-05-03 05:24 · Score: 2

Nobody cares now either. If he honestly believes that women should be kept barefoot and pregnant that doesn't impact his ability to be part of the project as long as he can keep those opinions to himself and not let them impact the way he interacts with other people on the team, at least in so far as such interaction might violate a code of conduct that is basically just "Be excellent to each other."
If you can't be kind and reasonable with the members of a coding team then you have no place in modern software development. Modern software is not developed by one person sitting in a dark room anymore, it requires communication skills and healthy team dynamics to function.

--
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
Re:LLVM code of conduct by Bruce+Perens · 2018-05-03 05:25 · Score: 2, Insightful

It's kind of funny how in one sentence you protested that you don't need a piece of paper to tell you how to believe, and expressed a bad attitude about having rules. All in the same sentence.
I did tell a community I'm managing, in an email, that I never expect the rule to be exercised. They are all professionals. But the rule is working even when it is not exercised. Having rules is explicitly to do two things: 1. Exclude people who don't like them. and 2. Give a rules-based means for penalizing or ejecting people who violate them. #1 keeps #2 from happening.

--
Bruce Perens.
Re:LLVM code of conduct by Bruce+Perens · 2018-05-03 05:43 · Score: 2

There were a few problems with the community the nerds had built. Not just computer programming - I deal with this exact same problem regarding Amateur Radio, which has taken the same community and carried it another 50 years, so I figure it's predictive of what could happen in computer programming. Go to a hamfest or electronics flea market, and look around. All we have are old white guys.

--
Bruce Perens.
Re:LLVM code of conduct by Solandri · 2018-05-03 05:54 · Score: 5, Insightful

Oh, and they're participating in an outreach program to encourage under-represented demographics to participate in open source project.

It upsets some people because you're assuming that the under-representation is due to some flaw which needs to be corrected. i.e. You're assuming correlation implies causation. Applying the scientific method, the under-representation merely suggests that discrimination may be to blame, but is not proof in itself. One would need to first prove that the under-representation is caused by discrimination, before corrective action is justified. But instead, the under-representation itself is incorrectly being used as "evidence" that corrective action is necessary.

Also your corrective action is blatant favoritism which would be decried as evil and discriminatory if it went the other way. i.e. You're trying to fight one type of discrimination by encouraging a different type of discrimination. This accomplishes the primary goal, e.g. getting people to realize it's wrong to discriminate against women. But it has the unfortunate side-effect of making some people conclude it's OK to discriminate against men. So you're not exactly reducing discrimination, you just replacing one type with another. And your corrective action will result in a long-term oscillation between different forms of discrimination, with no real reduction in the absolute total amount of discrimination. If you want to teach people that discrimination is wrong, you can't do it with programs which encourage different types of discrimination.
Re:LLVM code of conduct by slashdot_commentator · 2018-05-03 06:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

Oh, and they're participating in an outreach program to encourage under-represented demographics to participate in open source project.

No, the LLVM organization is choosing to align itself with a discriminatory group, while LLVM pretends to be non-discriminatory by creating a code of conduct to be used as a tool to persecute members who disagree with discriminatory behavior.

--
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
Re:LLVM code of conduct by slashdot_commentator · 2018-05-03 06:08 · Score: 2

...but Linus doesn't participate in the LLVM. Its going to get interesting when the corporate sponsors of linux decide they have to move on from the linux kernel in order to satisfy some gender biased notion of what's "fair" to some minority group.

--
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
Re:LLVM code of conduct by WaffleMonster · 2018-05-03 06:27 · Score: 2, Insightful

I have recently seen a high-profile community project where a key engineer believed (among other things) women should be shielded and kept at home. This engineer, obviously, had conflicts with people in the organization. Actually maybe about 30 people. Eventually, the membership walked off en mass and founded their own project. The new project has essentially the same code of conduct we're discussing here.
You need rules on paper for when stuff like this happens. It helps make slippery stuff like who offended who and whether such offense is out of scope for the project a lot easier to decide.
Fuck that. What needs to happen is people need to grow the fuck up and learn to tolerate those with different beliefs and values from their own. Including ones that insult you and piss you off.
What does beliefs about women have to do with engineering? Was the engineer designing home shields for women? Magnetic shoes to confine them to the house? Was the engineer doing something illegal?
Grow the fuck up.
Re:LLVM code of conduct by cascadingstylesheet · 2018-05-03 07:25 · Score: 3, Insightful

One would need to first prove that the under-representation is caused by discrimination, before corrective action is justified.

Yes, exactly.
Strangely enough, when people start treating you like you've done something horrible, and you haven't, people don't like that.
Re:LLVM code of conduct by Dixie_Flatline · 2018-05-03 08:17 · Score: 4, Insightful

You're looking at this wrong.
Under-representation is a problem because there are people that currently feel excluded from OSS, and they feel excluded partly because of the bad behaviour of some people in the OSS community, and also because after years of not being encouraged to be around, some people have decided that it would be nice to throw some encouragement to those under-represented groups. This isn't a matter of displacing people that are already here, or even stopping encouragement of white, straight, cis men, it's merely extending the circle of encouragement.
Indeed, YOU'RE the one drawing false causality here. Encouraging a woman to join an open source project DOES NOT implicitly discourage men from being there or encourage discrimination against men. Discrimination against women is a long-standing, structural issue in our society. Everyone does it, including women. Fighting against discrimination against women—i.e., feminism—is only encouraging discrimination against men if you're the most fragile of men, unable to distinguish between lifting someone up to achieve equality versus seeing the erosion of your own privilege as discrimination.
I'm a tall, athletic, white male with a university degree and all my hair. There is literally no axis upon which I'm discriminated against. I have no problem doing outreach programs where we encourage more women to enroll in computing science, or attract women to work in the games industry. I've done both those things personally during my life, and I hope to do more of it in the future. I'm not putting any men out of work, I assure you. I've had 2 female programmer colleagues in 16 years in the games industry.
Encouragement is not the same as discrimination, even if your encouragement is targeted. If you're afraid for your future (or the future of white men in general), that's on you. Try to figure out why you think me asking a woman to consider a career in this industry is such a threat.
Re:LLVM code of conduct by Cederic · 2018-05-03 08:37 · Score: 2

That's not the only issue with it.
The draft Reporting Guide states that there's no appeals process against reprimands or temporary bans, and if you talk about the lies some cunt made up about you in public you're immediately contravening the CoC whether you had initially or not.
It's basically a charter for a small group to maliciously take over the project. No governance, no accountability, no transparency.

Poor guy got triggered by bahwi · 2018-05-03 04:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

Seriously triggered, needs his safe space again where he pretends everyone is on even footing.

Maybe he will learn how countless others have felt with the unstated rules of discrimination in so many projects, companies, etc.... People should be accepted into communities based on skill. That's not how things are. The disconnect between how things "should be" vs. how things "are." People can still be fired for being gay (or even perceived gay, although I think there is a lawsuit there because he was actually straight).

Don't like politics creeping in? GOP has been pushing identity politics since before Bush W with the whole marriage ban and sodomy laws, there is gonna be a push-back and people aren't going to like it. When it affects individuals it's going to come back on the individual level, which means communities.

Re:Poor guy got triggered by datavirtue · 2018-05-03 05:39 · Score: 3, Funny

"People should be accepted into communities based on skill."
Whoa now! That was never part of the social justice agenda. We cannot be discriminating based on skill if we are to have a just society.

--
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Re:Poor guy got triggered by goatshadow · 2018-05-03 06:04 · Score: 2

Poor right wingers, their 'values' under attack.

He's not wrong by Anonymous Coward · 2018-05-03 04:56 · Score: 5, Insightful

The requirements to be able to contributed to a project should be based on merit alone.

Re: He's not wrong by sexconker · 2018-05-03 07:07 · Score: 3, Insightful

You're actually on slashdot right now. I can't believe I have to tell you that.
CoC's only apply to those organizations, and are usually unenforced and dropped after awhile since they don't work.
You'd think so, but:

In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may, in rare cases, affect a person’s ability to participate within them, when the conduct amounts to an egregious violation of this code.
You're wrong.
Such codes of conduct, community guidelines, etc. are simply text they can point to whenever they want to blackball anyone who isn't on the SJW team. Oh, you voted for Trump? GET THE FUCK OUT, BIGOT! WE'LL ORGANIZE A HATE CAMPAIGN TO GET YOU FIRED FROM WHEREVER YOU WORK!!! WE'LL HARASS YOU UNTIL A NEW TARGET SHOWS UP!!! Oh, you posted "All men are scum. Kill all men! Whites are the devil. We need a new genocide!!" all over Twitter, Facebook etc.? Well, obviously you're entitled to express your feelings.

Part of a Norm by Anonymous Coward · 2018-05-03 05:03 · Score: 5, Informative

As usual, SJW-ism has an effect of demonetization and loss of trust from the normal majority consumers, leading to loss.
- Hasbro for example managed to bankrupt the GI Joe brand by employing SJW writers into their comic, ruining the brand value.
- Marvel keeps losing money over the new female "muh womyn power" Captain Marvel, who keeps being rehashed and forced in apparent desperation yet keeps failing and not making returns.
- Disney's Star Wars has now lost trust among prop sellers, a first in the brand's history. Shelves are filled with unsold TLJ "womyn powa" toys which are going to be written off as a major financial loss for both the sellers and Disney. Now sellers have no alternative but to scrutinize all future Disney's Bolshevik marketing projections and force increased costs on Disney as a risk tax. Disney even lost a potential market of 1.3 billion people in China which cites "Baizuo" and "Low IQ (SJW) writing" as critiques.
- Video Game developers appealing to a vocal minority of SJW's who don't even pay for games but rather gather around a single "representative" professional critic/influencer via bubbled social contacts to engage in mob criticism/coercion, who are merely there to support that one career critic against products they don't even care about; resulting in a loss of the core majority of consumers and a net loss in revenue due to appeal to vocal minority over majority.
It's like the religious preachers who exist to preach against products they don't use with fellow church member mobs, yet who are mistaken in ignorance by the object of criticism as consumers.
- FreeBSD suddenly forcibly coercing/demanding from users to become political "ambassadors" by a Code of Conduct copy pasted from some feminist wiki, completely unrelated to the object of the community or their initial interests in becoming part of it. Result? Skilled staff loss.
- SJW publications such as Salon forced into adwall.
- The GNOME foundation running short on money because they wasted it on "The Outreach Program for Women" and such social (in)justice investments.

Examples keep on appearing exponentially with each day.

Re:Part of a Norm by Bruce+Perens · 2018-05-03 06:17 · Score: 2

Your thesis picks things selectively and then posits a reason for what is really your selection rather than objective fact. For example, your Star Wars toy line doesn't include any memory of Jar Jar toys.

--
Bruce Perens.

Actual Quote by Kunedog · 2018-05-03 05:05 · Score: 5, Informative

He says the reason for abandoning LLVM development after 12 years is due to changes in the community. In particular, the "social injustice" brought on the organization's new LLVM Code of Conduct and its decision to participate in this year's Outreachy program to encourage women and other minority groups to get involved with free software development.

This paraphrase deliberately attempts to mislead the reader into thinking he is anti-woman and anti-minority.

http://lists.llvm.org/pipermai...

The last drop was llvm associating itself with an organization that openly discriminates based on sex and ancestry (1,2). This goes directly against my ethical views and I think I must leave the project to not be associated with this.

He is in fact against discrimination and Outreachy's exclusionary nature.

Re:Actual Quote by Bruce+Perens · 2018-05-03 05:17 · Score: 4, Insightful

I don't know much about Outreachy. But a program that encourages participation by women and minorities requiring that funding candidates actually be women or minorities doesn't seem at all out of place for the purpose of the organization.

--
Bruce Perens.
Re:Actual Quote by im_thatoneguy · 2018-05-03 05:24 · Score: 4, Interesting

Ok, so he's not anti-woman and anti-minority, he's anti-outreach to women and minorities to encourage them to participate.
There's an important difference that was cited on the SO post last week between tolerance and inclusiveness. We shouldn't just be tolerating people, we should be welcoming. If you invite someone to your party and they don't know anyone and everyone else is friends you could say "I did enough! I invited them, it's up to them now!" but we all know how uncomfortable it can be, especially if they are shy, to approach a group of people they don't know. Inclusiveness is not just inviting someone and tolerating their presence but saying "Hey, thanks for coming here are some people I would like you to meet that I think you would get along well."
He's objecting to the fact that there is an organization that focuses on people just showing up to the party and don't know anyone. While it's true even straight white males from the united states need those same introductions to be included, there are numerous networks that already are performing that duty well. While they may not be explicitly stated as their goal to be "Helping straight white men from America find a welcoming place in the community." the outcome is that they are really well designed to do that. And that's fine too. But we can't pretend that those organizations don't exist.
This is by the way the UNIX philosophy "Do one thing well". It's great that we have lots of organizations that have organically developed to help one specific set of people (nerdy guys) find a place in open source. But having separate organizations that are focused on different problems is what the Unix Philosophy applied to recruitment recommends.
Re:Actual Quote by bahwi · 2018-05-03 05:29 · Score: 2

It's the twisting of the word "discrimination" to be always bad. Discrimination is something everyone does everyday. How is it being used? Just to exclude women and minorities? That's bad. Are your discriminating against a restauraunt that was in the news for an E. coli outbreak? That's not a bad use of discrimination or unreasonable.
For awhile people knew contexts, but lots of people think there is no context now.
Re:Actual Quote by cascadingstylesheet · 2018-05-03 05:32 · Score: 2

He is in fact against discrimination and Outreachy's exclusionary nature.
Ah, but it's all about who you exclude ... excluding currently disfavored groups is just peachy.
They literally have institutions that overtly discriminate. But they are "bravely" against ancient institutional discrimination that ended long before they were born.
Re:Actual Quote by Vapula · 2018-05-03 06:38 · Score: 2

Basically, by participating to the outreach program, the project is spending money on a most likely sub-par developper (if it was not a sub-par developper, it would not require the outreach program to get a job)
And the new code of conduct will prevent other to make critics of that sub-par developper...
End result
- loss of money that could have been better spend
- loss of time for the other developpers who will need to fix sub-par code from that developper
Add that comments around the CoC explicitely says that if racist speech would be punished, reverse-racist speech (ethnical minorities making racist comments against the majority) won't... If homosexual-phobic comments would be punished, heterosexual-phobic comments won't, ...
LLVM is sinking thanks to the "politically correct" police
Re: Actual Quote by Cederic · 2018-05-03 09:19 · Score: 2

It's called discrimination, and we do not need any of it.
I'm not in the US, in my country there's also a terrible racial imbalance in technology employment. Despite that I do not support quotas to limit the number of Indians.
You see, it's pretty fucking easy to treat people as individuals, not stereotypes. Try it.

Meet minimum standards of human behavior by XXongo · 2018-05-03 05:05 · Score: 3, Insightful

I have to say, looking at the Community Code of Conduct he's objecting to, I'm finding it hard to figure out what exactly he doesn't like. This is the code of conduct:

be friendly and patient,
be welcoming,
be considerate,
be respectful,
be careful in the words that you choose and be kind to others, and
when we disagree, try to understand why.

the only part of this that I can possibly think he might object to is the fifth one, which some people might consider suppressing free speech, but this is elaborated in the next paragraph as meaning:

Harassment and other exclusionary behavior aren’t acceptable. This includes, but is not limited to: Violent threats or language directed against another person. Discriminatory jokes and language. Posting sexually explicit or violent material. Posting (or threatening to post) other people’s personally identifying information (“doxing”). Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist terms. Unwelcome sexual attention. Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior.

all of which seem reasonable. If he wants to violate what seems to be pretty bare-minimum standards of what should be considered acceptable behavior, I'd say that he should leave the community. And not join a different one.

Re:Meet minimum standards of human behavior by xanthos · 2018-05-03 05:10 · Score: 4, Funny

Obviously you are not a Linux kernel developer.

--
Average Intelligence is a Scary Thing
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by 110010001000 · 2018-05-03 05:22 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why would you treat someone as an equal or with respect just because they have boobs or have a certain skin color? Very odd. People should be treated as equals and/or with respect if they deserve to be based on their behavior. I wouldn't treat Donald Trump with respect, because he doesn't deserve it. It doesn't matter if he has boobs or if his skin color was different.
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by cascadingstylesheet · 2018-05-03 05:37 · Score: 4, Interesting

So, basically, it sounds like he's taking issue with the fact that they expect him to treat dark skinned people and people with boobs as equals and with respect. We all know that's crazy talk and the work of the evil SJW conspiracy. (If you can't tell that I'm speaking sarcastically, you need help.)
No.
"The last drop was llvm associating itself with an organization that openly discriminates based on sex and ancestry".
In other words, he's the one who is against discriminating on sex and ancestry, and the project has officially taken leave of that.
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by Immerman · 2018-05-03 05:57 · Score: 4, Insightful

I think you're missing the point - it's not about treating women and minorities with respect because of their differences - it's about NOT treating them with disrespect because of them. i.e., treating them at least as respectfully as you would if they were white men, and perhaps slightly more so in deference to the fact that you're interacting across a cultural divide, and it's thus easier to inflict unintentional hard feelings, on both sides.
If you can't effectively call out someone's idiocy without mentioning their their race or gender, perhaps you need to consider that your real problem with them has nothing to do with idiocy.
In addition, if you can't call someone's idiocy in a social setting without being unnecessarily cruel and disrespectful, perhaps you need to work on basic social skills a bit more before trying to join a collaborative project.

--
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by 110010001000 · 2018-05-03 06:04 · Score: 5, Insightful

If that is "the point" then why doesn't it say that in the CoC? I do love your addition about "slightly more so" though. We are all equal, but some people are more equal than others I guess. Truly Orwellian.

"If you can't effectively call out someone's idiocy without mentioning their their race or gender"

Huh? Who said anything about doing that?

"In addition, if you can't call someone's idiocy in a social setting without being unnecessarily cruel and disrespectful"

Huh? Who said anything about that? You SJW types are really truly scary.
Re:Meet minimum standards of human behavior by robkeeney · 2018-05-03 06:08 · Score: 4, Informative
No he said that what clinched his decision to leave was
The last drop was llvm associating itself with an organization that openly discriminates based on sex and ancestry (1,2).
which comes from Outreachy's possibly illegal discriminator eligibility requirements here: https://www.outreachy.org/appl...
- You must meet one of the following criteria:
  - You live any where in the world and you identify as a woman (cis or trans), trans man, or genderqueer person (including genderfluid or genderfree).
  - You live in the United States or you are a U.S. national or permanent resident living aboard, AND you are a person of any gender who is Black/African American, Hispanic/Latin@, Native American/American Indian, Alaska Native, Native Hawaiian, or Pacific Islander
Outreachy is explicitly discriminating based on skin color and ethnic heritage, as well as gender identity, excluding white cis-men.
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by tbannist · 2018-05-03 06:10 · Score: 2, Informative

No.
"The last drop was llvm associating itself with an organization that openly discriminates based on sex and ancestry".
In other words, he's the one who is against discriminating on sex and ancestry, and the project has officially taken leave of that.
Except that statement is materially false. His claim is that Outreachy is discriminatory because it's mission is to increase visible minority and female participation in open source. That part is materially true. However, since he was already a contributor to llvm, he literally could not be discriminated against by Outreachy because he's already participating in the open source movement. My initial reaction is that he's either lying about his reasons or is so self-unaware that he doesn't understand his own motivations. I really think the first reason he listed is the primary reason for leaving and that was that as the project has grown, it has become more difficult to make big meaningful changes, he just needed an excuse that he feels doesn't make him feel like he's leaving the project because it's too mature for him.

--
Fanatically anti-fanatical
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by 110010001000 · 2018-05-03 06:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

You are missing his point. It is about him being associated with an organization (through his association with LLVM) that he thinks discriminates based on sex and ancestry. Not that he was afraid of being discriminated against.
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by sjames · 2018-05-03 06:25 · Score: 4, Insightful

I think what people react to is some fairly infamous mis-applications. For example, when David Howard was fired for using the word 'nigardly', or a couple guys getting fired because they had a brief snicker over the word 'dongle' that was overheard. In general, it's a bad situation where such a tempest can be raised when offense is taken even when it was not given.
Things like that have given the term "code of conduct" a bad reputation even where there is no intention of such behavior. It's like an organization that wants to give candy and flowers to people having a bad day names itself "the fourth reich".
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by Ichijo · 2018-05-03 06:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

Let's be clear. That organization practices reverse discrimination in order to bring more women and minorities into the industry.

--
Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
Re:Meet minimum standards of human behavior by unimacs · 2018-05-03 06:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

Also from their website: "Outreachy is a paid, remote internship program that helps people traditionally underrepresented in tech make their first contributions to Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) communities."

It would seem to make sense to exclude white males since they are not traditionally underrepresented in tech. Would it not? Just like it would make sense to exclude boys from GEMs club.

There's a shortage of talent in tech, so we need to figure out how to get more skilled people into the field. Women are severely under-represented and no, it's not because they're just not as good at it. The number of female CS graduates has been dropping since the 80s when I graduated. Why? Are the women of today genetically less capable of grasping code than the women of 30 years ago? Nonsense.

It could be because it's not seen as a desirable vocation for a woman, and just maybe that's not something inherent to coding itself. And maybe just getting more women into coding will encourage other women to make that choice.
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by Halo1 · 2018-05-03 06:47 · Score: 2

I think you're missing the point - it's not about treating women and minorities with respect because of their differences - it's about NOT treating them with disrespect because of them
If that is "the point" then why doesn't it say that in the CoC?
It does. It says to be equally welcoming to everyone.

--
Donate free food here
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by Sarten-X · 2018-05-03 06:51 · Score: 5, Interesting
The problem is that "disrespect" is based on the perception, rather than the intent, and there's an inherent conflict of interest in a review setting (like in any quality-control process or collaborative effort).
I'm very passionate about what I do. It's part of what makes me good at what I do, because I actually care about doing a good job, rather than just hitting the magic "40" on my time card and getting a paycheck. I will not hesitate to call out anyone's stupid failures. Mistakes or lack-of-training issues are fine, and we will accept those and move on, but failure due to being inattentive or simply lazy is not acceptable, and anyone failing in such a way needs to be aware that they're not performing up to the standards expected of my team. Frankly, I don't care what gender you are (or aren't), or how old you are, or your socioeconomic status, or really any other factor than whether you do the job. In my opinion, I'm perfectly in compliance with any nondiscrimination policy, because I don't discriminate.
To someone else's perspective, though, they think I'm complaining because they're black, or Jewish, or young, or blonde, or whatever particular insecurity they want to call out, because they're too inattentive to understand that they were actually doing something wrong.
The moment discrimination is brought up, especially in an enterprise with a "Code of Conduct" that is venerated above producing quality results, it's no longer a discussion about the right way to actually do the job. It's a discussion about sensitivity, and framing discussion, and having nice polite conversations with 3 HR reps and two managers, at whatever time they can all fit a discussion into their schedules. By the time that discussion takes place, the same failures have been repeated three times, and now there's a quality-control issue that needs to be addressed. Of course, that actual process issue has now become "normal", and any further complaint about the failure is just more "harassment".
In the end, the person who noticed the original problem is punished, the problem persists, and weeks of effort are wasted on what could have been fixed in five minutes of candid discussion. There have been many cases where this process has itself been abused to attack anyone who dares to complain about someone who is more skilled at gaming the management than actually doing their job.
As an alternative to a flawed "Code of Conduct", I suggest simply an environment of open failures, along the following lines:
- If you screw up and you realize it, tell the team.
- If you see someone else screw up, tell them or the team lead.
- If you are told you screwed up, you are responsible for finding the document that describes the process.
- Calling out someone who is, in fact, correct according to the documentation is itself a screwup.
- Anyone on the team may contribute to the documentation.
- Every day that you work with this team, you are joining a team. Everyone here is useful in some manner, regardless of whether or not you know what that manner is. You do not have the right to question anyone's participation in this team, though you may question how they do it as described above.
In short, if you want to say someone's wrong, it had better be something that's either not yet documented, or the document supports your opinion. It's very difficult to put discrimination into writing without making it obvious, especially when it's a document that anyone else can fix. At the same time, encouraging people to admit their own mistakes prevents hero worship and excessive egos. It's much easier to take a complaint when you know that your competency is not also under attack.
--
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Re:Meet minimum standards of human behavior by robkeeney · 2018-05-03 06:53 · Score: 5, Insightful

So you are all for discrimination against disfavored groups, as long as they're the groups you disfavor?
Re:Meet minimum standards of human behavior by iamhassi · 2018-05-03 06:54 · Score: 4, Informative

You got it all wrong. Here's what he said

http://lists.llvm.org/pipermai...

The community change I cannot take is how the social injustice movement has permeated it. When I joined llvm no one asked or cared about my religion or political view. We all seemed committed to just writing a good compiler framework. Somewhat recently a code of conduct was adopted. It says that the community tries to welcome people of all "political belief". Except those whose political belief mean that they don't agree with the code of conduct. Since agreement is required to take part in the conferences, I am no longer able to attend. The last drop was llvm associating itself with an organization that openly discriminates based on sex and ancestry (1,2). This goes directly against my ethical views and I think I must leave the project to not be associated with this. [1] http://lists.llvm.org/pipermai... [2] https://www.outreachy.org/appl...
The Outreachy link does say they do not accept males that are caucasian, European, Asian or Arabic. I think he's right for leaving, I would not want to be part of a group that actively discriminates either.

--
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by 110010001000 · 2018-05-03 07:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

"The problem is that "disrespect" is based on the perception"

The concept of "respect" is much different in the younger generations. It used to be that you earned respect through your actions and abilities. Now young people think that "respect" is a right, no matter what.
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by Anonymous Coward · 2018-05-03 07:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

His claim is that Outreachy is discriminatory because it's mission is to increase visible minority and female participation in open source.
No, Outreachy is discriminatory because it hires interns based on their sex and ancestry.
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by cascadingstylesheet · 2018-05-03 07:19 · Score: 2

My initial reaction is that he's either lying about his reasons or is so self-unaware that he doesn't understand his own motivations.

Well, that's lovely that you can read his mind and know his motivations better than he can, but ... his stated primary reason is not wanting to be associated with Outreachy, which does discriminate based on sex and ancestry.
Re:Meet minimum standards of human behavior by ljw1004 · 2018-05-03 07:20 · Score: 2

No he said that what clinched his decision to leave was ... [The last drop was llvm associating itself with an organization that openly discriminates based on sex and ancestry]
Read his resignation letter. He wrote two separate paragraphs:
(1) He is unable to attend LLVM conferences because he is cannot agree to [abide by] the code of conduct. This is what the post you replied to "meet minimum standards of human behavior" was talking about. I too wish to know which parts of that code of conduct he considers himself unable to abide by.
(2) What clinched his decision to leave was that LLVM is now associated with outreachy, and he himself didn't want himself to be associated indirectly with outreachy.
Re:Meet minimum standards of human behavior by Fringe · 2018-05-03 07:24 · Score: 4, Insightful

He isn't being asked to behave "reasonably well"; he's being asked to sanction discrimination. And you openly being happy to exclude people because they don't agree with you, when they BUILT the community, is pretty much his point of the problem... you haven't helped the community or committed code, but you come in and apply SJW (his term) values.
Of the two of you, one is behaving as an intolerant bigoted bully... and it isn't him.
Re:Meet minimum standards of human behavior by apoc.famine · 2018-05-03 07:49 · Score: 2

Can you please explain how that Community Code of Conduct sanctions discrimination? I'm having a hard time linking "be considerate" and "don't dox people" with discrimination.

--
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by Hognoxious · 2018-05-03 07:51 · Score: 2

However, since he was already a contributor to llvm, he literally could not be discriminated against by Outreachy because he's already participating in the open source movement.
Let me get this right. Either ...
a) it's not discriminatory
or
b) he's not allowed to say it's discriminatory
or
c) he's in no position to judge that it's discriminatory ... because *he* isn't *personally* affected?
Do you have any idea how retarded that sounds? Do you have any idea how retarded it is?
P.S. What does "it is mission" mean?

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by Cederic · 2018-05-03 08:07 · Score: 5, Insightful

The problem is that the sentence reads exactly the same whether you use the word 'reverse' in it or not.
Re:Meet minimum standards of human behavior by mi · 2018-05-03 08:29 · Score: 5, Insightful

If he can't agree to those minimum standards of acceptable behavior, then sure he shouldn't be admitted to the conference.
This is bullshit, and you know it. First of all, having to explicitly agree to this to attend a conference is like having to pledge allegiance every time to get food in a mess hall (as mocked so brilliantly in Catch-22 — great read).
How would like you like a daily popup on /. asking you to promise not to molest children today? Your probably would not... But, if you can't agree to that (much lower!) minimum standard of behavior, why should you be allowed to have Internet?
Seriously, like most corporations, LLVM has no separation of powers. The same people writing the Code of Conduct, are the ones enforcing it... Having it simply gives them a weapon to enforce their point of view.
And we know — from their choosing to associate with the trash like Outreachy — what that point of view is...
"Common sense is not too common" goes the saying. The code asks you to be "respectful" — what does it mean? If one were to show up to a conference in a T-shirt with a picture of AR-15, or a portrait of President Trump, would that be Ok? I've worked with people IRL, who'd file a complaint with Human Resources over such a thing — because they'd "feel unsafe". And it could get worse!
Likewise, what if a woman encounters an obvious man in a female bathroom — because he is "genderfluid" and felt feminine at the moment the nature called? Would the woman's negative reaction be "disrespectful"? By the standards of the Social Justice assholes, who'd consider yoga practice to be racist, it certainly would be...
We've been slowly boiled by these asshole for years. This man is a hero for raising awareness of this growing threat to our freedom.

--
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by goose-incarnated · 2018-05-03 09:24 · Score: 2

It's really easy to say you're against discrimination in any form when that discrimination has put you on top
It's even easier to say you're against discrimination because you're against discrimination.

Objecting to someone attempting to solve the problem now certainly doesn't put him in the right.
"Attempting to solve the problem" by offering more discrimination sounds like something everyone should object to. Like I told you in another response:
Affirmative action and equality are mutually exclusive. You can't have both.
You are now engaged in attempting to shame someone purely because they expressed the thought that discrimination on the basis of sex is a bad thing. The shaming doesn't work. Stop it.

--
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by Anonymous Coward · 2018-05-03 09:31 · Score: 5, Insightful

But this CoC goes much further than just prohibiting insults. It's a direct assault on certain political, religious, philosophical beliefs and attitudes that one may hold and espouse outside of the project.
For instance, the welcoming clause mentions supporting everyone regardless of their "immigration status". I assume that means if your status is considered to be illegal (or undocumented if you prefer) you are still welcome in the project. But suppose there is an LLVM developer who is politically opposed to DACA (in the US) and supports a moratorium on taking in refugees from certain countries with majority Muslim populations. And suppose that LLVM developer has contributed money to PAC's and political campaigns in support of his position on those issues. And also suppose that - using his real name on the internet - he posts messages on various social media platforms that espouse said political positions. And also suppose that he's never once made a statement about immigration at any LLVM conference, or on any LLVM mailing list, or irc channel, or any other LLVM community venue. IOW, he's completely separated his political view on immigration from his work and communications with others in the LLVM community. He kept it separate until that one time when he was asked about his views by another developer at a LLVM conference who happened to be involved in immigration activism and truthfully explained his position.
My question: Did the LLVM developer commit a CoC violation?
Re:Meet minimum standards of human behavior by Fringe · 2018-05-03 09:49 · Score: 3, Insightful

His resignation letter specifically referenced the "social injustice movement" and the Outreachy program... which is very specific and very discriminatory. Of course, an "Outreach" program by definition is trying to "reach out", but that doesn't make much sense in a faceless meritocracy such as an open source code base.
And that is part of his point... the code of conduct shouldn't require tolerance for any "political belief"; political beliefs shouldn't be part of the code discussion at all. (Hence his use of the word "permeated.")
What you're missing is that you're relying on the reporting rather than reading his letter and following the link in his footnote.
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by war4peace · 2018-05-03 10:17 · Score: 4, Informative

There's no such thing as "reverse discrimination".
You either discriminate or you don't.
The law says "you should not discriminate", no exceptions.
So they want to bring more women and minorities into the industry using illegal methods, period.

--
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
Re:Meet minimum standards of human behavior by malkavian · 2018-05-03 10:43 · Score: 2, Insightful

No gender or skin colour is going to cost you a job in tech. If it did, there would not be the large Asian and Indian presence in the roles that there are now.
In the places that are the most inclusive of all (such as Sweden etc.), there are still very low numbers of the groups in roles. This indicates that choice is a fairly large factor (and seems that the more "free to choose, rather than forced to work to survive" you are, the more men overall take up the roles, and women look elsewhere.
It's also illegal to discriminate based on gender or colour of skin, yet this is blatantly being done. If you want to raise the best talent you can, open the doors, and let people prove themselves. Take the best and the world improves. Force ideology onto things, and you're going to find yourself in a less than optimum situation, where the person that takes "that internship" will forever be looked on as "someone that could only get it because they're (x)", not someone that's achieved.
It's a massive insult to someone you way want to nurture in the first place, as they'll have that stigma, perhaps even detracting from a real talent (hey, if they're talented, why not hire them anyway?).
I keep hearing "It's so hard to get a job in (x) if you're a (y)", but see nothing in real numbers of qualified people complaining about it (you can bet it'd hit news pretty quickly). It seems it's the "everyone knows it" type of fallacy; everyone's being told that's what's going on, so people believe it. Despite very little evidence of it being true.
Re: Meet minimum standards of human behavior by imnotanumber · 2018-05-03 10:54 · Score: 2

His claim is that Outreachy is discriminatory because it's mission is to increase visible minority and female participation in open source.
No, Outreachy is discriminatory because it hires interns based on their sex and ancestry.
It's called 'positive discrimination' in the real world.
Yes! Putting 'positive' before is the answer!
I can't wait for the next 'positives':

- 'Positive vandalism'
- 'Positive burglary'
- 'Positive corruption'
Better: 'positive evil'! Yes...
Re:Meet minimum standards of human behavior by 110010001000 · 2018-05-03 11:31 · Score: 3, Insightful

"I'm sorry, straight white dudes aren't the smartest fuckers on the planet."

CoC Violation detected. By the way, you types always assume there is a long line of non-white males that are dying to become coders. Amazingly not everyone thinks your life is so awesome that they want to do what you do.

Re:How horrable! by Anonymous Coward · 2018-05-03 05:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

His objections are more like objecting to discriminating on the basis of race, gender, and sexual preference. That was the last straw for him Do you support that?
I don't.

Some people support this only when it discriminates against the people they think should get an advantage. There's different ways to justify this. Everyone mostly agrees that basing discrimination on hate and prejudice is wrong. Other people think basing discrimination on an aggregate unfairness of baked in identity is OK. I and many others think discrimination is just across the board wrong. Some people don't want to be part of groups that advocate this form if discrimination.

To give you an example, a white, poor kid wouldn't be eligible for the Outreachy program. But a rich black kid would. How is that fair?

Code Vs Emotion by Anonymous Coward · 2018-05-03 05:08 · Score: 4, Insightful

I get it, and I agree with him. If I were the main creator of something, and suddenly instead of being all about code, working out logic facts and figures everything started to be about how people 'feel' then I'd get the hell away from that hot mess too.

We are looking to create, not to socialize. Placing socializing as a top priority on a logic problem over getting work done is insane.

The other thing is, we do not all want to be nice all the time. If I am just a volunteer contributor then I should be able to be racist, mysoginistic, all inclusive, homosexual, heterosexual, pansexual or any shade of human you prefer. What these directives are doing is attempting to tell us all how to think feel and act which has nothing to do with coding logic or creating. They want us to be someone we are not to fit a narrative of reality which we do not even really know is good or bad in the long run, we just know it's popular think at this moment in time.

At any rate, you can all demonize him all you like but the man volunteered for 12 solid years, did an amazing job and has decided to leave causing a gaping hole and potentially the death of the entire project. If they were looking to help the projects then they have failed by alienating the developers.

Re:Code Vs Emotion by Bruce+Perens · 2018-05-03 05:56 · Score: 2

If you are looking to create, and can only create alone because respecting other folks is inimical to you, that's your problem. If you object to an organization that was out to encourage participation by women and minorities insisting that funded candidates actually be women or minorities, that is also your problem. In that case, yeah, you can only create alone now because reasonable people aren't going to put up with you any longer. Maybe you need a long walk and some thinking about your own attitude.

--
Bruce Perens.

Re:How horrable! by 605dave · 2018-05-03 05:19 · Score: 2

Isn't that one of the highest forms of posting?

--
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a difficult battle. - Plato

Re:How horrable! by Altus · 2018-05-03 05:19 · Score: 4, Insightful

If you don't like the code, comment on the PR, point out problems and weak points... but if you have to resort to anything that would violate those community standards in order to it then your points probably aren't that valid and perhaps you are not the great coder you believe yourself to be.

--

"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

Re:Important Questions by jcr · 2018-05-03 05:22 · Score: 2

If you've never heard of LLVM, and lack the skills to find out what it is on your own, then slashdot is probably not the place for you.

-jcr

--
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."

Ubuntu and Python CoC is about as bad by sbrown123 · 2018-05-03 05:25 · Score: 5, Interesting

They actually have this in their CoC:

"Our open source community prioritizes marginalized people’s safety over privileged people’s comfort. "

They follow by saying they condone "reversism's". In other words if you are white male or female you can be openly harassed within the community because you are considered privileged. What the hell has happened to these projects?!

Re:Ubuntu and Python CoC is about as bad by deesine · 2018-05-03 06:06 · Score: 2

Marginalized. Every time, I can't help but imagine someone smeared in butter stuff.

--
damaged by dogma

Makes sense to me by WaffleMonster · 2018-05-03 05:28 · Score: 3, Insightful

The last drop was llvm associating itself with an organization that
openly discriminates based on sex and ancestry (1,2). This goes
directly against my ethical views and I think I must leave the project
to not be associated with this.

[1] http://lists.llvm.org/pipermai...
[2] https://www.outreachy.org/appl...

What if the group was "white straight dudes under 30 only" would giving money to this group still be ok?

It's rather rich to preach tolerance of other tribes and at the same time actively promote and give money to clubs whose only requirement for belonging is tribal purity.

I don't see how it is possible to preach tolerance while actively supporting and funding tribalism while not becoming a hypocrite in the process.

If you want more diversity or whatever there are ways to get there that don't involve nurturing tribalism.

Re:Makes sense to me by Cyberax · 2018-05-03 08:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

Are there any real outreach organizations for white straight dudes 30-s only?

And you're the reason Outreachy is needed. Right now minorities are severely disadvantaged - they are less likely to get a good education, less likely to have access to computers when young, less likely to have a supportive social environment and so on. These disadvantages are real. They're there. They are inarguable.

If you know a way to compensate for them, so that a Latino kid with immigrant parents living in a ghetto neighborhood in Detroit would have equal opportunities with a white male from San Francisco then I would like to hear it.

not surprised by cascadingstylesheet · 2018-05-03 05:30 · Score: 2

I'm not surprised that this stuff turns some people off and causes them to say "fine, enough is enough. I was here for the code."

Most free software projects, nobody ever even sees you. If they don't seem to like your contributions, it's probably not because they are big wacist toxic masculine meanie weenies.

Yeah, this is what he's talking about. by davide+marney · 2018-05-03 05:33 · Score: 5, Informative

From https://www.outreachy.org/appl...

"Outreachy Eligibility Rules

You must meet one of the following criteria:

You live any where in the world and you identify as a woman (cis or trans), trans man, or genderqueer person (including genderfluid or genderfree).

You live in the United States or you are a U.S. national or permanent resident living aboard, AND you are a person of any gender who is Black/African American, Hispanic/Latin@, Native American/American Indian, Alaska Native, Native Hawaiian, or Pacific Islander"

So, there you go. If your skin color isn't acceptable, no internship for you.

--
"We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday

Re:Yeah, this is what he's talking about. by Anonymous Coward · 2018-05-03 06:19 · Score: 2, Insightful

How many people do you have to kill to be a murderer?
How many things do you have to steal to be a thief?
How many people do you have to hire with discriminatory criteria to be a bigoted organization?

Relevance? by Locke2005 · 2018-05-03 05:34 · Score: 4, Insightful

What ever happened to, "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog"? Diversity is irrelevant when you only know people by their email addresses! Just because I'm using the name of an old white philosopher doesn't mean I'm not a young black instagram model!

--
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.

Re:Relevance? by slashdot_commentator · 2018-05-03 06:31 · Score: 4, Insightful

You're being naive. Conferences and social networks are still means by which people "move up in the pecking order". And now these formerly volunteer organizations are becoming conduits to salaried positions.

--
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon

SJWs Value Tech Only as a Tool to Spread Bigotry by Kunedog · 2018-05-03 05:38 · Score: 4, Informative

For a while we've seen attempts like this in the open source world.

Want to muscle your way into an OSS project, despite lacking the talent or skill (or willingness) to contribute anything other than drama, identity politics, and an insatiable urge control others (or remove them if they don't fall in line)? Force a Code of Conduct (which is often explicitly racist and/or sexist, dismissive of merit, and vague enough to be selectively enforced) down its throat! It even works on the largest, most influential projects, and lets you dictate developers' behavior on unrelated corners of the web!

http://archive.is/4vV8z

https://www.reddit.com/r/Kotak...
https://www.reddit.com/r/Kotak...
http://todogroup.org/opencodeo...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Kotak...
http://contributor-covenant.or...

http://developers.slashdot.org...
https://www.reddit.com/r/freeb...

Re:Sounds good to me by Bruce+Perens · 2018-05-03 05:38 · Score: 2

The team would get along better, and more good people would enter. People who don't like the stuff outlined probably don't keep it to themselves. This creates tension in the group.

I am dealing with this every day. So many people of very high achievement walked off of a group - over time - that we had a full team of experienced people for a new one once we had a welcoming group for them.

--
Bruce Perens.

Google is on a "mission" by davide+marney · 2018-05-03 05:40 · Score: 2

As we've learned before, Google sees itself as being on some kind of social mission. They are not content to just give you good products and services, they intentionally USE those to influence you. I think this is an excellent case in point. If your skin color is not one that Outreachy likes, no internship for you. Likewise with your sexual preferences.

What does ANY of this have to do with writing good code? Absolutely nothing. It's all about Google and Friends using their platforms to force their belief systems on the rest of us.

It is very near time to ditch Google, to say nothing of the other technology giants. They're not content to stay in their lane and make good products, now they want to EVANGELIZE. If I want evangelism, I go to church.

--
"We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday

His actual words from the mail list by drnb · 2018-05-03 05:43 · Score: 4, Informative

His actual words from the mail list:

"The last drop was llvm associating itself with an organization that openly discriminates based on sex and ancestry (1,2). This goes directly against my ethical views and I think I must leave the project to not be associated with this."
http://lists.llvm.org/pipermai...

Re:Sounds good to me by slashdot_commentator · 2018-05-03 05:46 · Score: 2, Insightful

How does a higher percentage of participation from women in an organization help the organization if it doesn't result in a greater rate of code improvement?

--
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon

Code of Conduct is a Symptom by JimToo · 2018-05-03 05:47 · Score: 5, Interesting

The code of conduct doesn't just land from Mars. It's the result of various people in the team agitating for change. The CoC might well be being promoted to give people who have a political agenda, not a coding agenda, the opportunity to gain more control.

Software rewards a high degree of discipline, a coherent technical approach. It's sometimes necessary to prune code contributions that are rubbish in spite of the fact that this might hurt someone's feelings of self-worth. When this happens its easier to blame another's bias than your own incompetence.

It would be interesting to know the level of code contribution, and its quality, from the promoters of the CoC.

Opposite. Requirements: Must be, trans or genderqu by raymorris · 2018-05-03 06:00 · Score: 4, Informative

These are the official requirements for the program he objects to, copy/pasted from their web page:
--
You must meet one of the following criteria:
You live any where in the world and you identify as a woman (cis or trans), trans man, or genderqueer person (including genderfluid or genderfree).

You live in the United States or you are a U.S. national or permanent resident living aboard, AND you are a person of any gender who is Black/African American, Hispanic/Latin@, Native American/American Indian, Alaska Native, Native Hawaiian, or Pacific Islander
--

They have decided to explicitly NOT treat people the same. You MUST be transgender or something in order to participate in the program and get the benefits.

Most of the people I work with in open source, I don't know anything about their sexuality and I don't care. Not one bit. I care about the code - does it work, and has it been tested to be be sure that it works. Requiring me t inquire into someone's sexual preferences in order to determine how to process their code submissions would turn me off greatly as well.

From the article by DaveV1.0 · 2018-05-03 06:06 · Score: 3, Interesting

Seems to me he was upset about people prying into him:

I cannot take is how the social injustice movement has permeated it. When I joined llvm no one asked or cared about my religion or political view.

I don't want anyone interrogating me about my beliefs and views, so I don't blame him for leaving

--
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.

So You Agree with the Dev? by Kunedog · 2018-05-03 06:14 · Score: 2

It's the twisting of the word "discrimination" to be always bad. Discrimination is something everyone does everyday. How is it being used? Just to exclude women and minorities? That's bad.

Read it. He's explicitly against discriminating based on sex and ancestry.

Are you discriminating against a restauraunt that was in the news for an E. coli outbreak? That's not a bad use of discrimination or unreasonable.

He supports discrimination based on merit. You've said absolutely nothing useful here . . . not about Rafael, anyway.

Re:SJWs Value Tech Only as a Tool to Spread Bigotr by Anonymous Coward · 2018-05-03 06:43 · Score: 5, Insightful

The highest contributor is Chris Lattner. I'm willing to bet he's the founder/leader of llvm. I also willing bet it's his wife/girlfriend/sister/unspecified_relative Tanya Lattner who is responsible for this bullshit. It was her, after all, who wanted to partner up with that puke-inducing Outreachy organization that specifically discriminates against whites or cisgendered men. I don't see her name on that list of top contributors in TFA, so I suppose this is how she contributes to the project instead?

May this project crash, burn and rise from its ashes as a fork run by a meritocratically-minded group where the only property of your skin that matters is its thickness, your gender is only a problem if you make it one, and the only disability that gets you sympathy is RSI.

Re:Opposite. Requirements: Must be, trans or gende by vux984 · 2018-05-03 06:54 · Score: 4, Insightful

"Oh wow -- for once in your life, there's something you aren't entitled to! How does it feel?"

Is that what we've been striving for? Here i thought it was to be inclusive and more diverse; to give everyone the same opportunities white straight men have historically enjoyed. Was I wrong?

Because apparently you consider it progress, even a victory, if we just make life shit for straight white men too.

One internship [Re: Meet minimum standards] by XXongo · 2018-05-03 07:07 · Score: 3, Interesting

Let's be clear. That organization practices reverse discrimination in order to bring more women and minorities into the industry.

And that purported "reverse" discrimination consisted of a single internship set aside for somebody who is not a heterosexual white male.

That's it: one internship.

If he's triggered by having even a single internship devoted to trying to address barriers to entry for women and minorities, I'll say that this wasn't the problem; it's just the excuse he's giving.

Re:One internship [Re: Meet minimum standards] by internet-redstar · 2018-05-03 07:49 · Score: 2

That's it: one internship.
Nope, not even one... Link here.
"Unfortunately, either the community coordinator or the Outreachy organizers have determined that the community will not participate in this round of Outreachy internships."
and
"The LLVM coordinator is Tanya Lattner"
Which makes it an even more interesting turn of events - is she related with Chris Lattner, the LLVM maintainer - or is Chris in the process of gender changing? :-D

Wow, dude, lighten up. by Brannon · 2018-05-03 07:31 · Score: 2

> You're assuming correlation implies causation

No, I'm assuming that if there's a historically under-represented group then it may be due to any number of factors--some of which may be addressed by spending a little effort actively trying to boost participation.

Sure, you can choose to look at it as a form of discrimination. Or you could develop a thicker skin and go back to your Ayn Rand novel.

Discrimination OK if only part time? by drnb · 2018-05-03 07:39 · Score: 2

He's leaving because the intern program openly discriminates based on gender, sexual orientation, or ancestry. Basically, they won't hire a white American male as an intern.

You're pointing to a specific outreach program, not to LLVM's entire intern program.

So LLVM only discriminates part of the time. What percentage of discrimination is OK? 10%, 25%, 49%, ...?

Re:Opposite. Requirements: Must be, trans or gende by Dixie_Flatline · 2018-05-03 08:03 · Score: 2

Okay, I'll concede that you probably neither know nor care about the gender, gender identity, sexual orientation or ethnicity of any of the OSS projects that you participate in.

But I'll make a wild prediction: most of the people participating are cis-male, white and straight, and a majority of that number are all three at once.

See, the problem is less that you don't know, but that I can make such a bold claim without knowing exactly how each project is made up, and almost certainly be right. (I do, of course, accept the possibility that I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not.)

Encouraging people that are outside the current OSS community can't hurt anything. These are people that are underrepresented, and I bet there are a lot of people out there that are never encouraged to go into it, or are actively discouraged from being there. I know two women that work at Google that consistently face men talking down to them, despite them both being experts in their field. One of them has a male assistant who is constantly telling people that come over to talk that he's just the hired help, and my friend with the PhD is actually the person that the visitor needs to talk to. Many men don't know what to do with that, and continue to try to talk to the assistant, hoping against all hope that maybe it'll just work out if they pretend a woman isn't in charge.

A couple simple anecdotes, consistently backed up by every woman I know in tech. Trans and queer people have their own struggles with being hired at all.

To object to this program is really the height of eye-rolling fragility. This organization just wants to make the pie bigger, not take anyone's slice of pie away, and this guy can't deal with that. Good riddance. The 'one great person' fallacy needs to die—his contributions will be missed, I'm sure, but someone will take his place. Even Lattner himself wasn't irreplaceable.

Re:Opposite. Requirements: Must be, trans or gende by Cederic · 2018-05-03 08:15 · Score: 2

He's not entitled to fairness in the family courts.
Shit, he's not entitled to justice from the justice system.
He's not entitled to 80% of the scholarships and bursaries out there. Make that 98% if you exclude sports ones.
He's not entitled to vote without putting his life at risk.
He's not entitled to the same life expectancy as half the population.,
He's not entitled to equal education.

Hang on. Remind me, what the fuck _is_ he entitled to?

Re:SJWs Value Tech Only as a Tool to Spread Bigotr by Junta · 2018-05-03 08:48 · Score: 2

The 'good' example would also run afoul of some codes of contacts, as the tone may be considered too rude.

Also, when someone is rude to someone else, without even *knowing* their race/gender identity/etc, the offended person has on occasion asserted they were the target of hurtful language because of their situation relative to one of those groups, despite lack of any hint of references to that early on.

--
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.

Stop trying to appease people who don't care about by elainerd · 2018-05-03 10:15 · Score: 2

the industry. It isn't blue haired SJWs that have got us to this point. Is LLVM trying to create the BEST software or are they abandoning that goal and choosing to appease the perpetually offended. It is a lie that women are being stopped entry or being discouraged from tech jobs. A woman in tech, even in the 1990s would get an interview to see if they HAD THE SKILLS. People gravitate to what they are interested in, WHAT THEY ARE GOOD AT, and what they WANT TO DO. That's how FREE MARKETS work and create wealth. You can't force people into jobs just to full-fill the wet dreams of some hand-wringing SJW. The guys who fix the roads get paid A LOT more than you think and women are under-represented in that field also, Maybe they don't want to stand in the sun all day and maybe they don't want to sit behind a keyboard all day. You can't fix personal choice.

--
Faith: Belief in Truth. Superstition: Belief in Falsehood.

Re:SJWs Value Tech Only as a Tool to Spread Bigotr by Cederic · 2018-05-03 10:21 · Score: 4, Insightful

Congratulations on missing my point.
Damore has been publicly castigated for being supposedly misogynist, despite at no point actually being sexist.

Re:How horrable! by 110010001000 · 2018-05-03 10:26 · Score: 2

I'm not twisting logic. It is YOUR logic. You said: "resort to anything that would violate those community standards in order to it then your points probably aren't that valid". How is that even logical? A valid point is valid no matter how it is presented.

For anyone who thinks this, my (black, female) kid by raymorris · 2018-05-03 10:29 · Score: 2

Thank you and all who think like you for trying to help my kid, who is both black and female. It's appreciated.

My kid, a black woman, does not in fact need your condescending "help" to contribute to any open source project. It's just patronizing and insulting for you to act like she can't do whatever she decides to do, on your own merit with her own skills - to say that she needs your help.

What she needs from you guys is for you to instead spend that time proofreading and unit testing your own shit, so she doesn't have to spend her time fixing your mistakes. The thing is, she's smarter than you guys. She's even smarter than Bruce, and Bruce is a pretty smart guy.

Just stop raping. by hsthompson69 · 2018-05-03 11:27 · Score: 3, Insightful

You can encourage more minorities to apply for a job, increasing their representation in the applicant pool, without discriminating against any other applicants.

However, if you explicitly exclude applicants based on being straight, white, and male, you're actively discriminating based on sex, sexual orientation, and gender.

Fighting discrimination with more discrimination is like fighting rape with more rape. Just stop raping.

Re:If 'don't be an asshole' is too hard... by malkavian · 2018-05-03 12:25 · Score: 2

You obviously didn't read about the ethics behind all this, that Rafael didn't want to be associated with an organisation that blatantly discriminated against a large set of the population (Outreachy), especially when the Code of Conduct explicitly said "You can't discriminate". So logically, the community should spin, and automatically disband itself, as it's actively discriminating when it's core CoC says it isn't allowed.
He just wanted to get on with the code, and treat people as people. Now the overzealous Social Justice crowd have got entrenched, he just has better things to do with his time than play petty politics. So he's taking his skills elsewhere.
Sounds fair enough to me.

Re:For anyone who thinks this, my (black, female) by 24-bit+Voxel · 2018-05-03 12:30 · Score: 2, Insightful

The freer the society, the fewer women in STEM. Are we to force women to study things that they aren't interested in?

https://www.theatlantic.com/sc...

Where are the programs to get more males into teaching? Shouldn't that also be a big problem that we need to discriminate to solve?

Why does this door swing only 1 way?

Er, no by Anubis350 · 2018-05-04 05:05 · Score: 2

Er no. I just poked around a bit on the LLVM and Outreachy websites and as best I can tell:

*This is about 1 internship slot, not the entire scholarship program (and not even that because it doesnt look like one happened with LLVM this year through Outreachy, period). Outreachy would provide funding for an intern in one of the underserved groups they cater to.

*It doesnt mean there can't be other interns outside that program

*This doesnt seem to effect the rest of LLVM's scholarship program

I'm hard pressed to figure out what de Espindola's problem is with this, or with the code of conduct which really seems to boil down to "don't call someone out because of race, gender, ethnicity, etc, and don't get upset if they tell you to go shove it in return"

--
"goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series

Slashdot Mirror

One Of LLVM's Top Contributors Quits Development Over Code of Conduct, Outreach Program (phoronix.com)

116 of 1,235 comments (clear)