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Apple's iMac Turns 20 Years Old (cnn.com)

Twenty years ago on May 6, 1998, Steve Jobs unveiled the iMac for the first time. Current CEO Tim Cook shared footage from the event on Twitter Sunday. It shows Jobs describing the $1,299 iMac as an impossibly futuristic device. CNNMoney reports: "The whole thing is translucent, you can see into it. It's so cool," Jobs gushes. He points to a handle that allows the computer's owner to easily lift the device, which is about the size of a modern microwave oven. He takes a jab at the competition: "The back of this thing looks better than the front of the other guy's, by the way." In January 1999, less than a year after the iMac's debut, Apple more than tripled its quarterly profit.

The San Francisco Chronicle declared Apple was "cashing in on insatiable demand for its new space-age iMac computer." For the next decade, Jobs kept the new "i" products coming. Today, the iMac is in its seventh generation and is virtually unrecognizable from its ancestor. An Apple spokesperson notes an "iMac today consumes up to 96% less energy in sleep mode than the first generation."
Some of the original iMac's tech specs include: PowerPC G3 processor clocked at 233MHz, 15-inch display with 1,024x768 resolution, two USB ports and Ethernet with a built-in software modem, 4GB hard drive, 32MB of RAM (expandable to 128MB), 24x CD-ROM drive, built-in stereo speakers with SRS sound, Apple-designed USB keyboard and mouse, and Mac OS 8.1.

127 comments

  1. Re:I remember the first time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No more floppy.

  2. Small bump by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Informative

    The colored Mac gave them a bit of a bump, but ultimately failed to stop the decline in Macintosh sales. Ultimately it was the conversion to Unix, finally getting a decent OS that caused sales to continually increase.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    1. Re:Small bump by martinX · · Score: 3, Informative

      I disagree. I think it's all the products as a whole. I just took a look at Mac sales by year and there was an uptick in 2000/2001, then a drop. Things didn't pick up and stay up until 2006 which was 5 years after the iPod, a year before the iPhone and just after the release of OS 10.4.

      --
      When they came for the communists, I said "He's next door. Take him away. Goddam commies."
    2. Re:Small bump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correction, please!

      It is not "the colored Mac", OK?

      It is "the Mac of color", got that, chief? 'K.

    3. Re: Small bump by phantomfive · · Score: 1
      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re: Small bump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      https://www.google.com/search?...

      Those show exactly what he was talking about, iMacs didn’t explode till 2005-2006, OS X came out 2001.

      People were tired of five years of Windows XP, Vista was rushed, Intel Macs were announced. I remember this clearly.

    5. Re: Small bump by default+luser · · Score: 1

      Exactly, the combination or OS X 10.4 and Intel sparked the onrush, not some trendy overpriced shit in a colored case from 1998.

      You could get a machine with twice the specs as the original iMac for the same price, 17" monitor included, along with trendy MS Natural Keyboard Elite and Office.

      Just look at the Progen Polaris for the same time period:

      These worthless systems has such incedible mnarkup, it was astoundiing. At least when Apple learned ghow to design with the second gen, it ws at least pretty.

      --

      Man is the animal that laughs.
      And occasionally whores for Karma.

    6. Re:Small bump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It kept them alive at that point in time. You don't get to OS X if you've already gone bust before then.

    7. Re: Small bump by mridoni · · Score: 5, Informative

      At that time I was working in a shop that only sold Apple computers, and I had been working there for a few years. The first iMac, from a technical standpoint, wasn't really something to write home about: slow, prone to over-heating, no SCSI, floppy, ADB or serial when many people still used them (so you had to throw in the garbage all your old peripherals); the USB subsystem was lacking reliable drivers, so in the first months you had to choose between a floppy drive and a printer. Yes, it was repairable, but in 1998 that was still a given (and, anyway, putting an iMac back together after disassembling required some serious swearing, the damn thing had its insides so tightly packed, it wouldn't stick together if you routed the spaeaker cable the wrong way).

      But its greatest achievement was putting Macintosh computers back on the map. The iMac wasn't a champion, but it was pretty and shiny. When Apple, afew years later, presented later the "flower power" and "dalmatians" versions, they knew perfectly well that they wouldn't sell, but they were just meant to generate enough buzz in the press. And that was the iMac did: before its time, Macintosh computers were either (very) expensive and confined to DTP/graphic/music professionals, or (not so) cheap, outdated and unreliable. The iMac changed all that and prepared the terrain for the advent of OSX and, ultimately, of the iPhone. People instantly loved it, and there was nothing you could say about screen resolutions, a substandard graphic card (ATI Rage II/II Pro? Really?) or anything else that could make them change your mind. And it sat very well on your desk, no more square beige boxes or ugly CRT monitors with lots of cables: the iMac proved that computers, other than being a useful tool, could be a fashion statement and an extension of your (purported, at least) personality.

    8. Re:Small bump by dohzer · · Score: 1

      That iTunes BS, iPods and iPhones saved them.

    9. Re:Small bump by MerlTurkin · · Score: 1

      That's a fact. I bought a red iMac but buyers remorse set in and I sent it back for a refund.

    10. Re: Small bump by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      SCSI, floppy, ADB or serial when many people still used them (so you had to throw in the garbage all your old peripherals);

      Or buy a Keyspan USB to ADB converter.

      The iMac changed all that and prepared the terrain for the advent of OSX and, ultimately, of the iPhone. People instantly loved it, and there was nothing you could say about screen resolutions, a substandard graphic card (ATI Rage II/II Pro? Really?) or anything else that could make them change your mind.

      Sure, lots of people don't care about computer internals. That's progress, really. Not selling people a GPU they won't use is a good plan. Charging them so much they might as well have got one anyway is an even better plan.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    11. Re: Small bump by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 1

      > Or buy a Keyspan USB to ADB converter.

      Still useful for those Apple Extended II's.

      Although I would much prefer an entirely new enclosure with a built-in hub. Anyone know of such a thing? I'm not a fan of the various outright replacements.

    12. Re: Small bump by Solandri · · Score: 2

      the iMac proved that computers, other than being a useful tool, could be a fashion statement and an extension of your (purported, at least) personality.

      Exactly. The iMac's contribution (if you can call it that) to computing wasn't technical. It was psychological. It was available in a variety of colors, and the buyer got to choose which color theirs would be. Similar to the original Ford model T being available only in black, while all cars today are available in your choice of colors. For the non-technical masses, it turned the computer from "a" computer into "my" computer.

      While I'm a technical guy and think that's mostly pointless, I don't deny the influence it's had on how many people buy and treat computers. The trend of people pimping out their PC case with LED lights traces its roots back to the iMac. Same for all the custom cases available for phones - people put a disproportionate amount of thought and care into that $10 purchase because they want it to reflect themselves.

    13. Re: Small bump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      apples vision for its growing dongle division started way back then.

    14. Re: Small bump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not sure how LED lights on the case derive from the iMac, since AFAIK it didn't have any ... the BeBox however, that's another story ...

    15. Re: Small bump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. The iMac's contribution (if you can call it that) to computing wasn't technical. It was psychological.

      You mean illusory, deceptive, unreal and outright wrong?

      It was available in a variety of colors, and the buyer got to choose which color theirs would be. Similar to the original Ford model T being available only in black, while all cars today are available in your choice of colors.

      You mean like 5 colors, and 90% of people take what is on the lot?

      For the non-technical masses, it turned the computer from "a" computer into "my" computer.

      Nope. Go look at a computer store today. Again, 90% of them will be black, grey, silver.

      While I'm a technical guy and think that's mostly pointless, I don't deny the influence it's had on how many people buy and treat computers.

      By technical guy, you mean full of bullshit?

      The trend of people pimping out their PC case with LED lights traces its roots back to the iMac. Same for all the custom cases available for phones - people put a disproportionate amount of thought and care into that $10 purchase because they want it to reflect themselves.

      Funny, how I recall all of those things in the 1980s. You'd have a better case referring to tricked out cars. It is funny how Apfel fanbois lie their asses off.

    16. Re: Small bump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. Apple Stores becoming more prevalent didnâ(TM)t hurt either.

    17. Re:Small bump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The iMac was the first product, and one of many moves that contributed to their comeback. Others included cancelling the clones, the Apple online store and later retail store, OS X (which wasn't really useful until about 5 years after the iMac), and of course the iPod.

    18. Re: Small bump by dryeo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually the Model T was originally available in a variety of colours. Then Ford built his assembly line and black was the only colour of paint that dried fast enough for production and became the only choice.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    19. Re:Small bump by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      What the iMac did was plug the hole in the sinking ship known as Apple. What it did was offered a product someone wanted, and got some new sales out of it. Apple had been barely sailing on its existing customers just upgrading.

      People were still getting PC's in droves because they more or less had too. But with the iMac they started to want a Mac. But MacOS 8 and 9 were way too out of date in many ways and offered no good reason for the upgrade.

      While OS X, which was new and powerful and had the Unixy goodness, this got the attention of many of the technical people, who use to poo poo Macs for being too user friendly without the tools they really need.

      Then it followed up with the iBooks, Powerbooks, Power Macs, iPods, then iPhones....

      I am sure the iMac was the first part of a long term strategy. First to get people to want the product, then to get them like the product, then to buy the products.

      The Macs before that were just PC's with MacOS on it and incompatible chips. the iMac changed the conversation.

      However it took a few years to get a hold of it.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    20. Re: Small bump by jellomizer · · Score: 1, Informative

      2001 OS X wasn't very stable, Many Macs were sold with OS X and Mac OS 9 setup as duel boot. Because OS X wasn't mature enough.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    21. Re: Small bump by e432776 · · Score: 1

      I think you have it right the iMac was important not for technical but for "mind share" reasons. I only wanted to add that they were also substantially purchased by schools- might be hard to remember now that it looks like chromebooks fill the elementary education space, but Apple used to have a strong presence there..

    22. Re: Small bump by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Before the Intel switch Apple was getting a lot of traction. The big issue was the G5 Power PC chip couldn't be scaled down to a Laptop CPU, and has been lagging to match CPU speeds especially with the Intel Core chips. The switch to Intel was a boom for them. But there was a lot of popularity with the Powerbooks, Powermacs, iMacs, and iBooks. If they had done the switch back in 1998 to Intel. Apple would probably had been put out of business, because they would just be an other PC Clone.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    23. Re: Small bump by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      What Apple was betting on, is the fact that the average person, didn't need a powerful computer. But one that is easy to setup and work with. In many ways that was a big gamble. 1998 is the time of the eMachenes and Compaq race to the bottom PC's where they were just pushing cheaper PC's with more features "Mostly broken" That were large boxes, with big screens.

      Apple was selling a reduced feature at not a race to the bottom price, but (despite the stated problems from the parent) more or less worked well, and was easy to use, and fit in well with the culture of the time.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    24. Re: Small bump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An issue with the G5 was there was no mobile chipset/motherboards for it either.
      I think it might have been possible to scale it down, add more power management, make a chipset and power circuitry for a laptop. But IBM didn't want to, nor wanted to have to come up with a PowerPC G6, G7 etc. that might have diverged more from the big server chip. The "workstation" market (running Unix or similar and costing like a car) was dead. So IBM had other things to do.

    25. Re: Small bump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Duel boot? Did one installation take a potshot at the other every time it started up?

    26. Re: Small bump by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The iMac's contribution (if you can call it that) to computing wasn't technical. It was psychological. It was available in a variety of colors, and the buyer got to choose which color theirs would be. Similar to the original Ford model T being available only in black, while all cars today are available in your choice of colors. For the non-technical masses, it turned the computer from "a" computer into "my" computer.

      While I'm a technical guy and think that's mostly pointless, I don't deny the influence it's had on how many people buy and treat computers. The trend of people pimping out their PC case with LED lights traces its roots back to the iMac. Same for all the custom cases available for phones - people put a disproportionate amount of thought and care into that $10 purchase because they want it to reflect themselves.

      The iMac's contribution was it was simple, and playful. Computers were seen as a necessary evil - large complex beige boxes that made a lot of noise and had a rat's nest of cabling. Even more if you wanted the Internet, which was slowly coming into the consciousness of the public.

      With an iMac, you took it home. took it out of the box, connected the power, keyboard and mouse and either Ethernet from your broadband or phone cable to it, and powered it up. No rat's nest of cables, no software to install. Plug it all in, turn it on, you're done/ And the colors and clear plastic was more of a reassurance to people - computers aren't complex metal boxed beasts, but friendly playful things.

      Even better, it wasn't cheap nasty plastic you might associate with computers of the era, but nice high quality plastic that reassured users it was sturdy.

      And this was the Bondi Blue. The next year Apple went fruity and came out in 5 colors, and then after that added the polka dot, graphite and other colors to the mix.

      Of course, the irony would be that a decade later, we'd go from plastic back to metal cases...

    27. Re: Small bump by dhaen · · Score: 1

      I disagree about maturity, although it was young, it was better formed than the competition. I bought a dual boot Mac at that time because it was easier to administer than the Redhat Linux that my family had been been using for the last couple of years, and streets ahead of the crashy Windows that I'd abandoned in the past. BTW, are you up for a "dual"?

    28. Re: Small bump by dhaen · · Score: 1

      The switch to Intel came later.

    29. Re: Small bump by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Well, the PC competition at the time was very beige and very ad-hoc. PC design is almost an oxymoron, as it was design through accretion of new features. Apple was very good at wanting to adopt newer and better standards for things, which is why they stuck with SCSI for a very long time (even today's hard drives have SCSI command sets under the hood). Having USB as a default option wasn't common on the PCs.

    30. Re: Small bump by Brockmire · · Score: 1

      My school district bought a bunch of Apple shit. No one knew why. It was a huge failure. Anyway, these shitty boxes are the reason I never learned pascal in school. The pieces of shit would hard lock up and the teacher gave zero fucks because no one knew shit about them. I'd have to submit results by paper.

    31. Re:Small bump by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Apple spent many millions of dollars trying to implement 'the next generation Mac OS' (Taligent, Pink, butt-headed-astronomer, etc.) using their much vaunted 'software methods' and resident dogma at Cupertino. It went nowhere very expensively, Finally, when they had failed, NeXT bought the company and ported in their Unix variant. At the time NextStep was very portable, running on 68K, SPARC, PA-RISC, Intel x86, etc. Naturally under the Apple flag they shitcanned almost all of the portability, saving some bits of it for various mono-platform shifts of the future.

    32. Re: Small bump by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      That's more of a Microsoft-Linux thing, I thought.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    33. Re:Small bump by unixisc · · Score: 1

      The colored Mac gave them a bit of a bump, but ultimately failed to stop the decline in Macintosh sales. Ultimately it was the conversion to Unix, finally getting a decent OS that caused sales to continually increase.

      Very true. It was a pity that it took next to forever to bring OS X to market. And it wasn't too long after that that they migrated from PowerPC to Intel.

      However, it wasn't the conversion to Unix that changed their fortunes: what changed their fortunes was the successes of the iPod, iPad and finally the iPhone

  3. They need a 20th anniversary version by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

    They need to bring out a colorful 20th anniversary version, instead of the plain aluminum ones they currently make.

    1. Re:They need a 20th anniversary version by DarkVader · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You want Blue Dalmatian or Flower Power to come back?

      (Those things were UGLY. The dealer I worked with sold every other iMac from that shipment at retail price. Those two sat around for quite a while, and finally had to be sold at a loss. And they only got one of each.)

    2. Re:They need a 20th anniversary version by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They need to bring out a colorful 20th anniversary version

      With upgradeable components. They can get stuffed if they release more glue-sealed units with all-soldered components.

    3. Re:They need a 20th anniversary version by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They were beautiful and everybody in my dorm came to watch the Episode 1 preview in .mov format that it took me a day and a half to download in 800x600 resolution or something.

      Gorgeous. With Iomega 100MB floppy drive disks in matching colors and a round mouse so you never knew precisely where your cursor might go.

      Bondi Blue.
      Good times.

    4. Re:They need a 20th anniversary version by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They need to bring out a colorful 20th anniversary version

      With upgradeable components. They can get stuffed if they release more glue-sealed units with all-soldered components.

      you forget... its no longer about making cool stuff... its about exploiting the customer as much as possible.. and computers that have "glue-sealed units with all-soldered components" yeilds more profit... so what if the computer can no longer be repaired or upgraded, so what if nature suffers.. the important thing is that (the) Apple(-Ferengi alliance) gets a few extra (slips of gold pressed latinum here and there.. eh.. I mean a few extra) bucks...

      who cares about moral? certainly not Apple and certainly not their competition...

      expect more crappy electronics in the future.. even Apple seems to be constantly hunting for the cheapest and therefore worst quality components they can get while at the same time, jacking up the price to increase profits...

      expect more glue-sealed units with all-soldered components in the future...

    5. Re:They need a 20th anniversary version by ArchieBunker · · Score: 1

      They at least had style. Better than the beige PC garbage being sold at the time. Still not on par with anything from SGI though.

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    6. Re:They need a 20th anniversary version by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      You can get anything you want in the PC market. You always could get all sorts of weird shit that would put any Apple options to shame. What Apple did was to heavily market this stuff and then pretend they were the one's that invented it (or the only ones that had it).

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    7. Re:They need a 20th anniversary version by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And apple fine tradition of bullshit and lies continues today.

    8. Re:They need a 20th anniversary version by DarkVader · · Score: 1

      Heh, the round mouse was pretty, but it was kind of a pain to use. Apple does goof occasionally.

      It could be fixed by popping off the colored bits, or adding a shell. But the standard fix was an optical USB mouse.

    9. Re:They need a 20th anniversary version by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes they do care about their morals, in a public manner. Sure they have no problem building 750 million sealed glued shut computers here and there, but they spent maybe a billion buying solar panels, thus they're saving the world. They're also masters of recycling, because they comply on laws that mandate them to take their e-waste back if the consumer brings it them.

    10. Re:They need a 20th anniversary version by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      You can get anything you want in the PC market. You always could get all sorts of weird shit that would put any Apple options to shame. What Apple did was to heavily market this stuff and then pretend they were the one's that invented it (or the only ones that had it).

      Today maybe. Back in 1998, you had your choice of mostly beige. I remember back then that Dell was unique in that it offered black. Certainly no bright colors.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    11. Re: They need a 20th anniversary version by Brockmire · · Score: 1

      My high school looked like a fucking preschool.

    12. Re:They need a 20th anniversary version by DarkVader · · Score: 1

      Nobody did.

      I mean, until Apple did. Then everybody did.

      Before iMac, I remember people referring to USB as Useless Serial Bus. It was an afterthought port added on to a computer, nobody took it seriously, any real communication happened over the printer port or serial port.

      And that's how it remained forever.

      Oh, wait. The thing Apple did actually ended up changing the way everything talked to computers?

      Yes, of course it did. Apple might not invent everything, but Apple changes everything.

  4. The more things change the more they stay the same by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Crap then, crap now.

  5. Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I remember my iMac G5.

    It was a pretty nice computer (G5 jokes aside). The entire thing was modular and entirely user serviceable from the back side. You would place the unit screen down on a flat side, then undo three captive screws on the bottom that would actuate an internal locking mechanism and release the entire back panel. From there, you could grab the stand and pivot the entire back side up and off the computer.

    Once you'd done that, everything was serviceable from the backside. The RAM slots were presented to you (and the memory was even user replacable- Apple had instructions for opening up the machine in the manual), along with the HDD, Superdrive, the heatsink covering the processor, the fans, PSU, and the rest of the logic board. The entire system was extremely modular and while you weren't supposed to replace anything other than the RAM, it was trivial for anyone to service their machines themselves.

    So now what do we have?

    We have a thin aluminum turd designed to be as un-servicable as possible. You used to be able to open up the newer machines with a pair of suction cups (the display glass was held on by magnets, once you pulled that off all you had to do was remove the LCD panel to get to the guts), but now you can't even do that. You actually need a pizza cutter (Apple calls it a "rotary cutter") to slice through the adhesive foam holding in the LCD glass, and every time you open up the machine you have to replace this entire gasket to seal the machine back up again.

    Oh, yeah, and everything is soldered to the motherboard. RAM, CPU, GPU, SSD, everything. And guess what? When the SSD fails (which it will eventually), it will prevent the machine from booting (even from an external drive). You read that right- the machine is literally tied to the SSD, and if it can't enumerate the chipset, then the system will refuse to boot from anything.

    So here's to 20 years of the iMac. We've witnessed the rise and fall of what used to be a very reasonable computer. Now it's just a pile of irreparable trash, like the majority of Apple's other products. Designed to fail (and if that doesn't work, they'll just obsolete your system in the most passive aggressive way possible) and marketed at people who don't know any better, other than that it has an Apple logo on it so somehow it must be magically better. Such a goddamn shame too.

    1. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whine whine whine you can't upgrade the computer yourself, something approximately. .3% of computer users actually do. Do you post the same whines about your laptop or phone? This isn't 1993: nobody except gamers who waste $1000+ on a game machine are replacing the graphics card.

    2. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 2

      Oh, yeah, and everything is soldered to the motherboard. RAM, CPU, GPU, SSD, everything. And guess what? When the SSD fails (which it will eventually), it will prevent the machine from booting (even from an external drive). You read that right- the machine is literally tied to the SSD, and if it can't enumerate the chipset, then the system will refuse to boot from anything.

      Since the chip enumeration is likely NEVER ( or hardly ever) rewritten, those locations in SSD will also likely not "wear out" for many DECADES.

      Even the oft-rewritten portions of a modern SSD are unlikely to "wear out" for over 30 years; FAR longer than almost anybody would be running the same computer.

    3. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or actually 0.1% of Mac users are capable of doing any hardware upgrades, no matter how easy the box is to open. This is after all the same crowd, who can not handle a mouse with more than one button.

    4. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My first iMac was one I bought refurb from Apple. I used it about 18 months and eventually decided to upgrade because it was a 24" and I wanted the big honking 27". I sold the 24" to a friend who is still using it to this day. So let's say that one is roughly 11 years old at this point.

      My second iMac I used for 6 years and on that one the power supply finally did fail. I had it repaired for about $150 parts & labor and continued to use it for nearly another 2 years after that. I finally did decide to but a newer one because I just wanted more memory, speed, disk space, etc for my primary computer but the previous one is still chugging along as I use it as a streaming server and a "TV" in my workout room.

      I'm a developer who works from home 100%, so these weren't machines that got to spend most of the lives idle, between work and personal use these computers were actively in use at minimum 60 hours per week.

      So I guess first of all, they're not irreparable, just not easily reparable by end users. Neither are many things in the world today. And that's not a big deal when they don't need repairing that often in the first place.

    5. Re: Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding? 30 years? I've got the same machine for the last 8 years and I'm already on my 4th SSD, about every 2 years they die and have to be replaced. I'm only running the OS on it, everything else is on standard practical physical HDD's, including SWAP. Please enlighten me as to who makes an SSD that can last 30 years. I've had to do numerous replacements on other machines as well. I've got old hard drives that are going on 20 years old and they still work. I call BS, and raise you a shenanigan. Granted they have gotten better, but no consumer variety SSD today is gonna last that long.

    6. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by berj · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not much point replying to an AC.. but..

      Oh, yeah, and everything is soldered to the motherboard. RAM, CPU, GPU, SSD, everything.

      What the hell are you talking about?

      In the current 21.5" iMac 4K the Ram is replaceable, as are the CPU and SSD. Not easily replaceable.. but replaceable nonetheless. The GPU is indeed soldered in. Well done. 1/4.

      In the 27" 5K iMac there's a hatch on the back to access the RAM, the cpu and ssd are upgradeable (with similar difficulty to the above). Heck.. even the Wifi/Bluetooth module is replaceable.

      In the 27" iMac Pro it's the same story as the 21". All replaceable with some tricky disassembly/assembly. But definitely replaceable.

      So really it's only the GPU that's soldered on. Congrats. You did worse than just randomly choosing components to declare as soldered in.

    7. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by Kjella · · Score: 2

      Since the chip enumeration is likely NEVER ( or hardly ever) rewritten, those locations in SSD will also likely not "wear out" for many DECADES. Even the oft-rewritten portions of a modern SSD are unlikely to "wear out" for over 30 years; FAR longer than almost anybody would be running the same computer.

      They can still outright fail though, it's happened to me. And of all the things soldered into an iMac, I'd consider it the most high risk item. But we had this argument 20 years ago about why would anyone buy an AIO over a desktop with an external screen, where you can upgrade one or the other and replace just one if the other breaks. To technical people this was absurd, but the customers didn't care as long as it looked pretty. And that's when they figured most people don't care about these things so let's just solder it down and glue it shut, sockets and connectors are for nerds.

      Offer people a "warranty" which is basically to clone it in a new device and recycle the broken one and most don't care that it's essentially irreparable. Until they're stuck with an out of warranty paperweight, but then they're looking at features and price right now. That they'll be stuck in the same position some years down the road, well let's just kick that can ahead of us. Many people live paycheck to paycheck. Long term planning is where to go on vacation next year. How you'll repair you iMac in five years? Not even on the horizon...

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    8. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand, they mostly do know that "cannot" is one word, not two. So they're still some way ahead of you

    9. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The controller usually does long before the flash runs out of rewrite cycles and spare sectors. Sometimes it dies completely, sometimes the metadata like block rewrite counts and logical mapping gets corrupted. Depending on how shit the firmware is corruption can be fatal or at best let you recover some data.

      It's also kind of a bugger if your motherboard dies for some other reason and you want to recover your data.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    10. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More LIES. Anything solid state can die. You have the atypical level of a tech knowledge of an apple worshiper. Approximately NONE.

    11. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another zinger based on 1993 computer configurations! Re-living the nerd-fights you got into back in High School, old-timer?

    12. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      That's like saying that 99.9% of Apple users can't put together a small Lego kit. This stuff has always been pretty simple. Open the box and find a suitable socket. The only really difficult part is the artificial difficulty in getting into a Mac.

      People just love to intimidate themselves when it comes to computers.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    13. Re: Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      I have several boot SSDs that are older than that.

      Tell us what brands you are using so we can avoid them.

      The most I've gotten out of spinning rust is about 7 years. If you choose poorly, you can't hope for a drive to last that long. (looking at you Seagate)

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    14. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 2

      Since the chip enumeration is likely NEVER ( or hardly ever) rewritten, those locations in SSD will also likely not "wear out" for many DECADES. Even the oft-rewritten portions of a modern SSD are unlikely to "wear out" for over 30 years; FAR longer than almost anybody would be running the same computer.

      They can still outright fail though, it's happened to me. And of all the things soldered into an iMac, I'd consider it the most high risk item. But we had this argument 20 years ago about why would anyone buy an AIO over a desktop with an external screen, where you can upgrade one or the other and replace just one if the other breaks. To technical people this was absurd, but the customers didn't care as long as it looked pretty. And that's when they figured most people don't care about these things so let's just solder it down and glue it shut, sockets and connectors are for nerds.

      Offer people a "warranty" which is basically to clone it in a new device and recycle the broken one and most don't care that it's essentially irreparable. Until they're stuck with an out of warranty paperweight, but then they're looking at features and price right now. That they'll be stuck in the same position some years down the road, well let's just kick that can ahead of us. Many people live paycheck to paycheck. Long term planning is where to go on vacation next year. How you'll repair you iMac in five years? Not even on the horizon...

      Of course, you're one of those people who turns around and argues that people can repair their own iPhones, even though 90% of the world's population couldn't successfully effect a repair on ANY electronic assembly, let alone one with almost exclusively SMT components, including those with fine-pitch leads, or even NO real exposed leads (BGA, QFN, etc).

      So which is it? People can repair modern SMT-based electronic assemblies, or not? Because, it is no harder to access the innards of a modern iMac (heat gun, spudger, cutters) than it is to access in innards of ANY modern smartphone and many laptops (heat gun, spudger, cutters).

      And considering the fact that the vast majority of computer owners NEVER upgrade their computer's internals, even when they ARE easily accessible and replaceable, the "but it's SOLDERED!" is a pretty weak argument overall.

      As for me, I have been an embedded systems designer/developer for several decades, and have built-up many of my own SMT designs, and, at certain times in my life, I have also been an electronic repair technician (bench tech). But when I want my phone worked on, I take it to those who do that every day. And I don't own a computer with a soldered-in SSD or RAM; but if I did, I would also take that to someone who works on those products every single day.

      Experience and knowledge also includes the experience and knowledge to know when you DON'T have the specialized skills and equipment to effect a successful repair, and should take your device to those who do.

      To use a car analogy: I can fix many things on my car; but I would never attempt to rebuild its automatic transmission, even though it is completely "repairable" by the standards set forth by the Parent.

    15. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      The controller usually does long before the flash runs out of rewrite cycles and spare sectors. Sometimes it dies completely, sometimes the metadata like block rewrite counts and logical mapping gets corrupted. Depending on how shit the firmware is corruption can be fatal or at best let you recover some data.

      It's also kind of a bugger if your motherboard dies for some other reason and you want to recover your data.

      So, if the on-board SSD controller dies, or the SSD's block mapping gets corrupted on a REMOVABLE SSD, isn't THAT data JUST as "gone" (and the computer JUST as un-bootable!) as it would be with a SOLDERED SSD?

      So, in either case, you can only HOPE your BACKUPS (you DO have BACKUPS, don't you?) are complete, up-to-date and READABLE. And, other than the difference between ordering a replacement SSD, reinstalling it, vs. cycling your computer through a Repair Depot, the "fix" is the same: Restore your computer from a BACKUP.

      And, since Apple makes having Backups about as drop-dead-simple as they can be, any Mac User who DOESN'T have an up-to-date Time Machine Backup of their DESKTOP Mac, CERTAINLY doesn't get to whine about Data Loss.

      I have restored two Macs using Time Machine Backups (actually Restored one after an HDD swap, and used a Time Machine BU to Migrate an older iMac (FIVE Generations of OS-OLD!) to a brand-new iMac (Snow Leopard to High Sierra)), and in BOTH cases, it was literally a one or two-click operation, with 100% "fidelity" of Restoration. In fact, the migration was actually performed by the 86-year-old owner of the iMac HIMSELF, with VERY MINIMAL "handholding" over the phone by me. Doesn't get much simpler than THAT!!!

    16. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      Not to Reply to my own Post; but modern Macs with Soldered SSDs also have an internal Port on the mobo that allows an Apple Repair Center to Download the data off of the machine's SSD; so that also somewhat obviates the need for the SSD to be socketed, too.

      And the possible chipset configurations in Mac designs are few enough that I doubt that those are even specifically enumerated in a "must never be corrupted" area of Flash, anyway.

    17. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      apples whole business philosophy is to prey on the technically weak.

    18. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So your answer is, buy a back up drive (why not, it's reasonable, although it's true that 90% people don't do back ups either, because spending $100 on some USB hard drive is painful)

      BUT, instead of paying $50 to $100 for a future SSD you think it's perfectly fine to buy a $2000 computer instead.

      You know what, most people don't replace a failed drive, most people don't upgrade, most people don't back up. Ergo Apple should get rid of Time Machine. Hopefully OSX 10.15 will auto-delete the back ups lol.

    19. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This sounds a lot like insurance : my house never caught fire, it's not a big deal if it doesn't have insurance. Well, depends on your country, living in an uninsured home can get you evicted, like your uninsured car might end up on the impound lot. So this breaks the analogy a bit, unless we have "right to repair" laws :).
      Such law wouldn't make it mandatory to have everything socketed, because that's not reasonable. It might be reasonable to replace the fan, motherboard and display, if these are on the only replaceable things left (plus the PSU if it's internal).

      Personally I think I wouldn't mind a computer with everything soldered (there are some rather great netbooks in the last couple of years) although I'd like it better if the RAM stayed on DIMMs - I would much like a low end computer with 16GB or 32GB RAM because I don't need 20 teraflops but I don't like not being able to do whatever I want unless I close my browser to release gigs of RAM. (including browsing). Had an outdated 1991 desktop that had both : 4MB soldered RAM and four 30-pin SIMM slots.
      The computer should still work if some hardware is failed or semi-failed : such that if the SSD is dead, you can use SD or USB 3.x
      The only good thing from OSes like Windows 8 and similar bloat from Gnome 3 etc. is you can use a laptop with a dead keyboard, and log in etc. using the touch pad.
      Dead GPU? I can use a dead GPU, if it's alive enough to show a basic 2D picture (both Windows and Linux can be configured so that this will work).
      I'm going too far already. But yeah, if you're making computers can you please pay attention to little details like these (and if you dumb the BIOS down.. why not let us lower RAM and CPU speed still. So that when it's old and doesn't work properly I'll spend a minute slowing it down to make it stable again. Even a setting to run a PCIe 3.0 interface at 2.0 speed can be useful)

    20. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Doesn't one of the newer iMacs have soldered memory? I was pretty sure there is at least one.
      The Mac Mini infamously has soldered RAM. Surely they wouldn't want people to buy a Mac Mini and stuff 32GB RAM in it.

      Yeah right the original 4K iMac had soldered memory (with a very powerful Broadwell CPU) but the newer one has SO-DIMM DDR4.
      So they back-tracked on this one and this is a very good thing!
      The 2017 21.5" 1080p iMac has soldered memory.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMac_(Intel-based)

      So, I don't congrats you since you cherry-picked models to make your point. Also opening your iMac Pro seems a very bad idea unless extended warranty has run out.

      Upgrading CPUs on laptop hardware is not a very useful thing to do, a hassle to gain 5% performance maybe. Laptops and iMacs and Minis are tailored, cooling and power wise to the CPU that goes in them. Newer half-generations of CPU are incompatible.
      The good thing is there is SATA on most of those iMacs, thanks to them supporting a HDD. I don't know about the PCIe for SSDs, are they proprietary such that they differ between models.

    21. Re: Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by Brockmire · · Score: 1

      TheFakeTimCook doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. You said "fail", he rants about wear levelling. He doesn't realize SSD's rarely ever reach their rated endurance before the controller or power supply fails. Only enterprises generally come close to rated wear. On top of that, the drive is bad long before every sector is bad, making the 30 years number nonsensical in terms of actual life usage.

    22. Re: Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by Brockmire · · Score: 1

      I don't know about others, but if I'm dealing with more than 8 pins, I'd rather work with BGA and QFN than chips dealing with individual pins that need to be soldered. The time and frustration difference is huge. Once you've done it once or twice and have the equipment, it's like 5 minutes work for the next one.

    23. Re: Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by Brockmire · · Score: 1

      If you were reading your own posts, would you be yellling for all the caps you use unnecessarily? If one spoke like that in real life, you'd be more like apk than a functioning human being.

    24. Re: Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      I don't know about others, but if I'm dealing with more than 8 pins, I'd rather work with BGA and QFN than chips dealing with individual pins that need to be soldered. The time and frustration difference is huge. Once you've done it once or twice and have the equipment, it's like 5 minutes work for the next one.

      If you have the equipment (in our R&D lab, we used a Black & Decker toaster oven retrofitted with a precision PID temp controller to do "IR Reflow", and a Pace(?) multi-tool SMT soldering/rework station, along with a really nice video microscope), none of those packages are too much of a problem (we tended to hand solder the QFNs, though). If you have a nice solder paste dispenser like we had, we usually just manually applied paste-dots and hand placed the chips (video microscope helps a lot; but don't drink too much coffee first!), then stuck them in the toaster oven.

      But, my point is, not 1 in 1 million smartphone/computer users is going to have even that level of "SMT rework" equipment.

    25. Re: Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      If you were reading your own posts, would you be yellling for all the caps you use unnecessarily? If one spoke like that in real life, you'd be more like apk than a functioning human being.

      If /. had a real rich text editor (like 99% of forum sites do!), I might be bothered to use "styled text". But when typing posts requires a goddamned ignorant HTML test (which is absolutely a PITA to type on a phone or tablet, requiring up to fifteen extra keystrokes!!!) just to create an italicized or bolded word ot two, I will FUCKING CONTINUE TO USE CAPS, like people did in BBSes, back before there WAS "styled text"!

      Or would you prefer equally ignorant "emphasis tags" such as *this* or _this_?

      Capitalized words are there for EMPHASIS, not "yelling"; since you cannot HEAR my vocal inflections.

      Now, PISS OFF, YOU IGNORANT PEDANT (now THAT was yelling...)

    26. Re:Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by berj · · Score: 1

      So, I don't congrats you since you cherry-picked models to make your point.

      If by "cherry picked" you mean "the currently selling models" then sure. But since the person I responded to said "So what do we have now?" I took "now" to mean.. well.. now.. the models you can buy now.

      But sure.

      Cherry picked.

    27. Re: Yeah, and look at how shitty they've become. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same AC here. From worse to best in terms of shortest life and data corruption:
      The major stinkers - as in to never buy again: Mushkin, PNY, Adata, Patriot, and Crucial. The just okay stinkers: Intel (seen a number of these go belly up in laptops), and Samsung (on my second set now, but still my number one go-to). I've always considered SSD's more for the enthusiast and system builders club, the fact that so many are now soldered directly into machine builds is quite scary. But excellent for recovery based businesses and the backup industry. Seriously folks if your using these, best to have a backup plan. It's not necessary to do RAID, especially in a media or gamer build since you'll take a hit on performance. Instead a poor man's RAID setup like a monthly or bi-weekly DD or True Image backup to a hidden partition on a normal drive serves quite well to make the switch while you wait for a replacement.

  6. Apple Going Out of Business... by cirby · · Score: 1

    ...for over forty years, according to the experts...

    1. Re:Apple Going Out of Business... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      They had a real shot in the 90s. Either you weren't there or you are kidding yourself.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    2. Re:Apple Going Out of Business... by Arkham · · Score: 1

      They had a real shot in the 90s. Either you weren't there or you are kidding yourself.

      Yep, and I bought $1000 of stock back then, which is now worth $120,000. I wish I weren't so poor back then, or I'd be retired.

      --
      - Vincit qui patitur.
  7. First shown at WWDC... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I remember watching the WWDC via satellite broadcast in the Northwestern University Media Development Lab. The satellite feed was hooked into a PowerMac 9500. So I captured some screenshots - and posted them to our Mac Users' Group. And posted a link here. And got said NUMUG webserver slashdotted since it was one of the first places that had a picture of the iMac. Before the news sources could get theirs into the mainstream.

  8. Crummy Specs Even For Then by mentil · · Score: 1, Interesting

    PowerPC G3 processor clocked at 233MHz, 15-inch display with 1,024x768 resolution, two USB ports and Ethernet with a built-in software modem, 4GB hard drive, 32MB of RAM (expandable to 128MB), 24x CD-ROM drive,

    I recall my bargain-basement box I bought out of a catalog had far better specs, purchased 6 months after the iMac came out, for half the price. 400MHz AMD CPU, 20GB hard drive, 128MB RAM, DVD drive (and a video decoder card necessary to play back DVD videos at full speed). Ok, it didn't come with a monitor, but still.

    --
    Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    1. Re:Crummy Specs Even For Then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This was 1998. I'm pretty sure you maxed out the RAM and hard drive there.

      The HDD and RAM you quoted were only common a year or two later.

    2. Re:Crummy Specs Even For Then by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      Also, the 400 MHz AMD CPU was unlikely to be any better than the 233 MHz G3, and it was probably more power-hungry.

      (I also had a 400 MHz AMD machine around the time. I still have an iMac rev. B somewhere I should fire up again -- I found it in a garbage pile some years ago, turned it into a headless machine with a PicoPSU, and I still use the outer case as a ceiling lamp.)

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    3. Re:Crummy Specs Even For Then by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Also, the 400 MHz AMD CPU was unlikely to be any better than the 233 MHz G3, and it was probably more power-hungry.

      The G3 was nothing to write home about, but the Athlon was. The G4 was impressive, but the G3 wasn't. The Athlon, though, was the fastest thing around, clock for clock. It was also by far the cheapest, flop for flop. The release of the Athlon was really AMD's most shining moment. They absolutely cleaned Intel's clock technically for years. Actually, the K6 was much faster than Intel processors as well, but it was typically hampered by a VIA chipset. It wasn't until the Athlon that AMD started producing chipsets in quantity, and their chipsets are top-notch — better than Intel's, in fact.

      I remember it well because that's when I built my first PCs, in that era. The first of them had a K6/2. The PCs I'd had before were hand-me-downs.

      (I still have the last dome-shaped iMac, with the voodoo card...)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Crummy Specs Even For Then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not sure about the power-hungriness.

      The TDP of AMD K6-2 were all in the 10-20 watt range.

      It was only the Athlon and the Pentium 4 where the TDPs went through the roof, past 50 watts.

      Reference: http://www.geocities.co.jp/Sil...

    5. Re:Crummy Specs Even For Then by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > This was 1998. I'm pretty sure you maxed out the RAM and hard drive there.
      >
      > The HDD and RAM you quoted were only common a year or two later.

      It doesn't matter "what is common". The white box PC vendors have always been much more flexible. Lower overall prices mean that you can get much more box for the same money (or even less).

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    6. Re:Crummy Specs Even For Then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was commenting on how he claimed it was "bargain-basement" but the specs were well above average for the time.

      Apart from the CPU, it sounded like a "performance" line box to me.

      I bought a 1,3 GB hdd in 1996, and a 40 GB hdd in 2001. Interpolating from that, something like 4-8 GB sounds like standard in 1998-1999.

    7. Re:Crummy Specs Even For Then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple notoriously cheated on benchmarks by using hand optimized Photoshop filters and benching that. Photoshop *filters* : this means a tiny plug-in that anyone can write. We might call that a microbenchmark.

      The 400MHz AMD was pretty good, but weak on floating point. Pentium Pro/II/III (and Celeron) were a ton better than everything else at floating point in x86 land, until the Athlon matched it.

    8. Re:Crummy Specs Even For Then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had an ALI chipset with the K6/2. I only found later it was supposed to be horrible, but I was probably lucky by not using an AGP card - back then you could just use some cheap and fast 2D card (S3 Virge, ATI Rage Pro were excellent for this) and a Voodoo2. Or use an AGP 3dfx Banshee or Voodoo3 etc., which did not use AGP features. So they were spared the stories of your PC blowing up (well, crashing) because of severe issues with the AGP features in the chipset.

      Also, I think the K6/2 was about a year or two before the DRAM plague - when noname memory was scrapped from the bottom of the garbage pile and sold to you.
      I don't remember why but this K6/2 system didn't survive that long anyway.
      Celeron on normal-looking socket was a good replacement (these were almost as good as Pentium II/III but cheaper)

    9. Re:Crummy Specs Even For Then by mentil · · Score: 1

      To be fair, the PSU and HDD died 3 years later. So probably not the highest-quality components.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
  9. Apple hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The only Apple machine I have ever owned, wanted to own and still own is my Apple ][+, a masterpiece of design and form following function.

    Sadly, I think the company and their products went down hill from there.

    1. Re:Apple hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The IIe was in superior to the II+ in every conceivable way.

  10. horrid mouse by 4im · · Score: 1

    Do you recall the round mouse that came with that first iMac?
    Ergonomically, it was absolutely catastrophic. I never could use it for
    any length of time. Thankfully, the iMacs were few, and the labs had
    more decent Macs around (for when we had to use those rather than
    PCs or Unix workstations).

    Also, the fixation on USB back then was... courageous, as there
    weren't yet many devices around.

    I never could stomach those integrated PCs/screens, much
    preferring separate, exchangeable, upgradeable parts (obvious
    exception for portable stuff).

    1. Re:horrid mouse by Misagon · · Score: 1

      Yes. That was some really stupid design.
      There were several third-party adaptors that snapped onto the mouse to make it longer so that you could tell which direction it was facing. The iCatch sat on the back.
      The Contour Unitrap encased the mouse.
      I think there was also a third one that replaced the coloured plastic side parts.

      Still, it was not as bad as Digital Equipment's puck mouse that had two wheels on the bottom. That one was not just round but also difficult to move where you wanted.

      --
      "We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
    2. Re: horrid mouse by tsa · · Score: 1

      All Apple mice are terrible but the puck mouse really was in a league of its own. Instant RSI the moment you touched it.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    3. Re:horrid mouse by Samurai+Nigel · · Score: 1

      I do remember it. I also remembered their "you're holding it wrong" solution":

      https://www.scart.be/sites/def...

      Very brave.

  11. The first affordable desktop ... by Qbertino · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... where you didn't need to know how to connect or adjust a monitor. A big win for non-experts. Nice move. I didn't get it back then as much as I get it now. Unpack, turn on, works. ... By and large Apple deserves all the billions it can make.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
    1. Re:The first affordable desktop ... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > ... where you didn't need to know how to connect or adjust a monitor.

      It's plugging in a cable, not rocket surgery.

      Using a TV with anything other than the built in rabbit ears requires about the same skill level.

      Apple users take helplessness to an entirely new level.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  12. Great until the monitor went out... by overlook77 · · Score: 1

    First computer I ever tossed out because the screen died...

  13. Few people care about user servicability by sjbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We have a thin aluminum turd designed to be as un-servicable as possible

    I used to care about user serviceability until I realized that almost nobody actually does it including myself. Only a tiny fraction of a fraction of computer users ever crack the case of their machine. For the few people who care there are machines available to do this. Just not from Apple. So if this is important to you, don't buy Apple. They obviously don't want your business and frankly I can't really blame them. I don't understand the point in bitching because Apple isn't pandering specifically to you and a very narrow market segment like you. To Apple it's just a added cost that people demonstrably aren't willing to pay extra for and that very very very few people actually give a shit about.

    1. Re:Few people care about user servicability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you really white knighting to protect the honor of a declining consumer electronics company? Could there be anything more pathetic?

    2. Re:Few people care about user servicability by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      The real value of a "user serviceable" device is to avoid the assinine markup on storage and ram imposed by a lot of box builders. This is even a problem with Linux vendors. I "built" my last couple of NUCs because of this.

      Getting into one is trivial. Finishing assembly is pretty trivial.

      If I ever wanted more RAM, that would be no big thing either.

      If the drive dies, it's trivial to fix. A suitable expert at least has a chance of rescuing the machine from the trash heap.

      Systems that are difficult to maintain are fodder for landfills. It's much like using your own yard as a latrine.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    3. Re:Few people care about user servicability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a) Yes from Apple's point of view it makes sense, nobody is arguing that. They make more up front and numerically not many people bitch about it, because most people are ignorant, which brings me to...

      b) Most savvy people will upgrade RAM and storage (and in the case of laptops, replace the battery) after a few years, when costs have gone down. The fact that people don't is because they are ignorant. They think that when their computer starts to get slow they need to throw it away and buy a new one. It's like saying, most people don't floss correctly so let's just stop selling dental floss.

      It so happens that we've reached the point where RAM and SSDs don't actually get cheaper anymore, at least not over a period of a few years (!), so maybe it doesn't matter after all.

    4. Re: Few people care about user servicability by tsa · · Score: 1

      I guess you think iFixit and repair cafes and the like are just fads, no?

      --

      -- Cheers!

    5. Re:Few people care about user servicability by sjbe · · Score: 1

      Yes from Apple's point of view it makes sense, nobody is arguing that. They make more up front and numerically not many people bitch about it, because most people are ignorant, which brings me to...

      Lots of people are complaining about it. Slashdot is full of people who seem to think Apple owes them something. That's the whole point of this thread. I like expansion slots too and I'm the sort who will dig into the guts of my computers from time to time. But we have to recognize that there are very few like us.

      They think that when their computer starts to get slow they need to throw it away and buy a new one. It's like saying, most people don't floss correctly so let's just stop selling dental floss.

      No it just means Apple doesn't sell your figurative dental floss because there is no money in it for Apple. The point is to stop expecting Apple to have a change of heart about this. Buy a PC from Dell or HP that you can upgrade and move on with your life. Apple isn't interested in your upgrades and they make no money supporting them. Let it go.

      And frankly most of the time when their machine starts getting too slow a bit of RAM or an SSD isn't going to really fix the problem. By the time they think they need a new machine they probably are right. Oldest computer I own is about 7-8 years old and I seldom use it anymore. Anything older is more trouble to keep operational than it is worth to me.

      It so happens that we've reached the point where RAM and SSDs don't actually get cheaper anymore, at least not over a period of a few years (!), so maybe it doesn't matter after all.

      The ONLY person I personally know in my day to day life who has ever bothered to swap a SSD for a spinning platter in any computer they own is me. None of my friends have done it, certainly none of my family. It's just not something that people do. People that want an SSD buy one. People that want more RAM buy that when the buy the computer and they never think about it again until they need a new computer. That's just the way it is.

    6. Re:Few people care about user servicability by fatwilbur · · Score: 1

      It's not up to the bitcher to know or define how wide their market segment is, only to complain that it doesn't meet their needs. The hope is that if enough people bitch, it will signify a wide market segment.

    7. Re:Few people care about user servicability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only a tiny fraction of a fraction of computer users ever crack the case of their machine.

      And even fewer yet actually open their case intentionally =D

    8. Re:Few people care about user servicability by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Most savvy people will upgrade RAM and storage

      Back in the 90s, we'd almost routinely get additional memory for our Macs after a couple of years or so, because it improved things a lot, and the price had come down considerably in maybe two years. Is that still true anymore? We haven't noticed the same sorts of issues with computers recently.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    9. Re: Few people care about user servicability by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      They aren't fads; they're niche markets. For the foreseeable future, we'll have a relatively small number of people who are interested in fiddling with their own computers and phones. As these people tend to be more interested in raw specs than ease of use, I'd think they tend to buy Windows machines and perhaps install Linux, so they wouldn't be likely to be Apple customers even if modern Macs were as easy to open as the 1990s ones.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  14. I never thought much of it. by sabbede · · Score: 1

    Mounting all the hardware next to a CRT and making it hard to get to didn't seem like that great an idea to me. Still doesn't.

  15. How quickly we forget though ... by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

    ... that terrible, awful, worthless insult to a pointing device they called their mouse. The person who thought that a round "hockey puck" mouse design was somehow a good idea was an idiot. I can't tell you how many times in various jobs I grabbed one of those miserable mice and started moving it only to realize I grabbed it sideways, upside-down, or at some angle other than normal and it was dutifully moving in a direction other than what I had expected.

    Apple should be charged with environmental disposal costs for the truckloads of those miserable piles of failure that they made that invariably were sent to the trash. I recall (at least) one company made a plastic cover for it that a user could snap on to it to give it a normal - and useful - non-round shape.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  16. The iMac almost got me worker's comp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was working at CompUSA back with the colorful iMacs were being sold there (side note that many people didn't realize, Apple forced retailers to order all colors simultaneously; if we had demand for 5 red ones we also had to order 5 blue, 5 yellow, 5 orange, etc in the same order - often causing us to have a surplus of unpopular colors and a drought of popular ones). One evening after close I was helping my colleagues move a new shipment of iMacs from shipping & receiving to top stock (done with a moving staircase). We were passing them up the stairs - which involved grabbing it from the person below me on the stairs and lifting it over my head to pass to the next person up the stairs - to get them up as quickly as we could. I had one though that slipped slightly from the hands of the next person up the stairs, and predictably fell straight onto my head. I did manage to save the iMac from falling any further though it was not comfortable to have it land on my head.

    I could have applied for worker's comp - except I was part-time. No such benefits exist for part-time retail slaves.

    1. Re:The iMac almost got me worker's comp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck apple.
      They had shady business practices right from the start.
      Now they are outright crooks.

  17. U Can still run decent software on a 2008 iMac by Wolfrider · · Score: 1

    --El Capitan (10.11) will run on a 10-year-old aluminum iMac. It has a Core 2 Duo 64-bit CPU, and you can upgrade the RAM to 6GB DDR2 if light virtualization is needed. (Confine yourself to 1 running VM at a time with a minimum of vRAM and renice -1 as necessary.) It will be a little slow compared to a modern build, but still doable.

    --Apps which still install and run:

    o All 4 major browsers: Firefox, Palemoon, Chrome, Opera

    o Thunderbird

    o Virtualbox

    o OpenZFS

    o Malwarebytes, CCleaner

    o Libreoffice

    o VLC

    o Nomachine NX

    o Midnight Commander (brew)

    o Handbrake and MakeMKV

    --With external drives and ReFind, you can even dual-boot a modern Linux on it. I wouldn't recommend KDE cuz the graphics card is a bit ancient, but XFCE and LXDE run fine - and they seem faster than OSX with a more recent kernel.

    --The really nice thing about Mac OSX is having native virtual screens. I normally use 4 in Linux but I've got the iMac up to 8 because you can control other boxes with that nice big display and Nomachine. ;-) So, one less reason to use Win10.

    --
    .
    == WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
    1. Re:U Can still run decent software on a 2008 iMac by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you implying that you cannot run Windows 10 and all those applications on a similar vintage, identically-specced PC?

    2. Re:U Can still run decent software on a 2008 iMac by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      I have recent versions of Ubuntu installed on much less powerful machines of that vintage. I might even have an old AIO lying around with 10 on it.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    3. Re:U Can still run decent software on a 2008 iMac by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've run Windows 10 on a mechanical HDD. everything brand new, in fact. Windows 10 trashes the HDD with I/O from garbage like Windows Defender, Search Indexing etc. so the OS takes most of the I/O for itself and a lot of the RAM too.
      So I guess if you max RAM out and use an SSD, it will run well on a 2008 PC or Macintosh. If you run it on a brand new PC with a 3x faster CPU, 4GB RAM and HDD it will run like crap, despite the sayings there were about Windows 10 being "lean".

      I don't know about MacOS, but instinctively I'd like a Mac Mini with 32GB RAM if that existed.

  18. Not Apple's problem by sjbe · · Score: 1

    The real value of a "user serviceable" device is to avoid the assinine markup on storage and ram imposed by a lot of box builders.

    And why is this the problem of the box builder? Tell me what benefit Apple derives from such a device? It adds measurable and significant cost to them for a feature few users care about when they are almost certain to not recoup those extra costs in additional sales. You can be sure they've done the math. It also creates a situation where they have to support users opening their devices and occasionally doing stupid things. Basically you are asking Apple to add a lot of cost to them to save you money. Are you really surprised they are not interested?

    If you want expandability there are PC makers that make such devices. Apple is under no obligation to you or me to be one of them.

    Systems that are difficult to maintain are fodder for landfills.

    So are systems that are easy to maintain. Few people keep PCs for longer than 5-10 years. You aren't keeping them out of landfills. Just delaying the inevitable at most. And the pieces you take out are de-facto trash so all you are doing is taking the machine to the dump piecemeal instead of all at once.

    1. Re:Not Apple's problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And why is this the problem of the box builder? Tell me what benefit Apple derives from such a device? It adds measurable and significant cost to them for a feature few users care about when they are almost certain to not recoup those extra costs in additional sales. You can be sure they've done the math. It also creates a situation where they have to support users opening their devices and occasionally doing stupid things. Basically you are asking Apple to add a lot of cost to them to save you money. Are you really surprised they are not interested?

      This is also why there is no security on IoT and Android. Or why the Titanic was designed to kill half its passengers..
      Sure, Apple doesn't want our business. Android doesn't want my business. This sucks balls though.
      Apple's monopoly on desktop/laptop isn't too big of a deal (specific monopoly on commercial Unix on desktop/laptop)
      With Android smartphones, this attitude that security hurts the vendor company (it does, because it's expensive) means I can't use a smartphone. Duh. Maybe I'll be able to buy a smartphone in the 2020s. Maybe I won't.

  19. Unrealistic expectations by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Are you really white knighting to protect the honor of a declining consumer electronics company?

    What honor? We're talking about unrealistic expectations of users who want Apple to give them something that doesn't benefit Apple and won't be used by more than a tiny fraction of people. Do the math.

    And if you think Apple is a declining company I don't think you understand the meaning of the word declining. If having hundreds of billions in excess cash, products that sell in huge numbers for premium margins, and a fanatical customer base is failure sign me up.

    Could there be anything more pathetic?

    Your reading comprehension seems an obvious candidate. Complaining that a company isn't bowing and scraping to your every selfish whim is another.

  20. Disk First Aid by yuhong · · Score: 1

    The iMac led to the release of Disk First Aid 8.2 in mid-1998, which can finally repair the startup disk directly without having to boot from a DIsk First Aid floppy.

  21. That design was remarkable by Sprotch · · Score: 1

    Will the specs were flawed, that design was amazing. Looking at it today, it still looks good. Those things look colourful, modern, and desirable (well if you ignore the CRT screen). I'd argue it aged even better than the very first Macintosh design, and will certainly look better in a few years time than the current iteration.

  22. Easier to insure by sjbe · · Score: 1

    I guess you think iFixit and repair cafes and the like are just fads, no?

    Basically yes they are. There is always a small community of technically inclined people who like tinkering with their devices and fixing things. Key word is small. The overwhelming majority of people do not give a shit and aren't going to bother. It's cheaper and easier to insure electronics rather than repair them. Especially given that most were not designed to be repaired. Or if they must repair most people will choose to hire someone to do it for them just like they do for their car or house.

    1. Re:Easier to insure by tsa · · Score: 1

      I wish it were different but looking at the people I know I must say you're right.

      --

      -- Cheers!