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Microsoft Developing a Tool To Help Engineers Catch Bias in Algorithms (venturebeat.com)

Microsoft is developing a tool that can detect bias in artificial intelligence algorithms with the goal of helping businesses use AI without running the risk of discriminating against certain people. From a report: Rich Caruana, a senior researcher on the bias-detection tool at Microsoft, described it as a "dashboard" that engineers can apply to trained AI models. "Things like transparency, intelligibility, and explanation are new enough to the field that few of us have sufficient experience to know everything we should look for and all the ways that bias might lurk in our models," he told MIT Technology Review. Bias in algorithms is an issue increasingly coming to the fore. At the Re-Work Deep Learning Summit in Boston this week, Gabriele Fariello, a Harvard instructor in machine learning and chief information officer at the University of Rhode Island, said that there are "significant ... problems" in the AI field's treatment of ethics and bias today. "There are real decisions being made in health care, in the judicial system, and elsewhere that affect your life directly," he said.

239 comments

  1. Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IMHO this article is FUD!

    1. Re:Unbiased approach. by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 2

      Of course it is. From what I understand, in nearly all cases the algorithms that make decisions about routine stuff don't even have access to information about the person's race, nationality, gender, etc. If so, how is bias even possible? It sounds like the individuals it disfavors may have some kind of adverse event in their history that was fed into the algorithm. I.e. missing down payments, drove 50mph over the speed limit, did 2 years in Virginia for possession of fentanyl, etc.

      Except in the case of car insurance, where gender is given, and is very biased against males, and for good reason. Bias against any other identifiable category, no matter how good of a reason, and the court of public opinion will summarily issue a guilty verdict, and then Hank Johnson will introduce a new bill banning algorithms.

    2. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Eliminating Bias from AI means discarding facts and data that violate SJW principals.

    3. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If so, how is bias even possible?

      Just because you don't know the race, doesn't mean your correlations don't also show a bias towards race, for a salient reason you may not understand: Human society is not acting on the AI directive, but imposing conditions which are themselves racist and the AI is picking up on it.

      The AI, then being taken as the unquestionable word of the machine, then furthers the racism, and of course, it's not challenged because too many persons think that the word of the machine is divine.

    4. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's "principles". FFS, if you can't even spell derp right...

    5. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      bias isn't just about race etc. The bias here is about results biased generated from the AI, it could be how it plays chess in that it has a bias for certain moves or bias in sentence construction due to being trained by americans who don't understand english

    6. Re: Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Says moron who uses "FFS". The 90s are over, dipshit.

    7. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well...it...could be principals. And yes, those principals can be violated. Maybe even some of them became social justice warriors because they don't get enough attention, and so they secretly wish that somebody would violate them. Ever think of that?

    8. Re:Unbiased approach. by fafalone · · Score: 3, Informative

      SJWs simultaneously complain that black people are being arrested more, and that an algorithm that predicts higher recidivism for blacks is improperly biased and should return the same risk for whites.
      Explain this to one, and you'll get a blank stare followed by an accusation that you're a racist.

    9. Re:Unbiased approach. by Sique · · Score: 1
      No, the article is not FUD, as has been clearly proved with COMPASS. This is a system designed to predict recidivism rates as a supporting tool for the judge to decide if a conditional discharge is possible. None of the more than 100 input parameters is directly race related. But still, COMPASS shows a strong bias, as it overestimates the recidivism of black people by a factor of two while at the same time, underestimates the recidivism rates of whites by about the same amount.

      To put it clearly: COMPASS expects black people to commit further crimes twice as often as they really commit further crimes, while at the same time expects white people to commit only half as often further crimes than they really do. So COMPASS is much more likely to predict a black person to become a career criminal than they really are, while it does not expect the same from white people. This is a clear bias, and it has nothing to do with the input parameters per se, but with the way they are interpreted by COMPASS.

      Apparently, COMPASS ranks a combination of factors quite highly, that is more common with black people (especially a poverty background without stable families and poor education), even when each of the factor is only slightly elevated, while it does not put too much value on single factors even if they deviate highly from the norm (e.g. it strongly underestimates the recidivism rates for certain sexual offenses).

      So COMPASS has a strong social bias, but does not look into individual traits too much. And because the social conditions in the U.S. are highly correlated with, it basicly punishes black people for being poor.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    10. Re:Unbiased approach. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      So maybe recalibrating the whole thing so that the predictions exhibit minimal error compared to the outcomes is perhaps an option?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    11. Re:Unbiased approach. by Sique · · Score: 0
      You are a racist by either willingly reporting false, or by missunderstanding facts because the twisted facts better fit your world view.

      It's not that COMPASS (the program you are talking about) should be reporting the same recidivism rates for blacks and whites. It's just that it should err about them at the same rate.

      And it does not. We know the recidivism rates for black people, and COMPASS overestimates it by a factor of about two. We also know the recidivism rate of white people, and COMPASS unterestimates it also by a factor of two. That means: COMPASS is much more likely to paint a black person a future career criminal even if half of the alleged ones never commit a further crime. On the other hand: COMPASS will advise to go softly on a white person even for 50% of future career criminals. So a white person is twice as likely to get off the hook lightly as he deserves, while COMPASS is highly biased to recommend prison time even for black first offenders who will never commit a further crime.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    12. Re:Unbiased approach. by fafalone · · Score: 1

      So now I'm a racist because SJWs are complaining that black and white recidivism isn't equal, when they should instead be complaining about the error rate? And yet they wonder why more progress isn't being made...
      I agree with your assessment of the algorithm, but that's the criticism serious people are making. SJWs are shrieking about the higher chance, and don't care about distinctions like yours.

    13. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [Citation Needed]

    14. Re: Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. I can't stand AI and all the media hype around it, and I think widespread use of it is going to be not just bad but terrible for humanity (you really want your whole world optimized according to what will please accountants? That's no life worth experiencing.)

      But that said, it's going to be amusing watching this because the problem in this context isn't going to be that AI will be biased in analysis, but that it won't be--and the conclusions derived are not going to be acceptable at all to the SJW crowd. That I'm going to enjoy immensely.

    15. Re: Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Are you really that ignorant? That doesn't prove COMPASS is racially biased. It proves that it, like most AI initiatives, is snake oil. We have tons of data on repeat offenders and career criminals. Checking it for simple accuracy should be thing 1 to do.

      Now, let me turn that around, because people like you have been telling us for decades that poverty breeds crime and therefore criminal behavior needs to be combated with massive social programs that somehow never end poverty but we need more and more of them. Now you say this algorithm uses your side's ideas as a predictor, probably because whoever created it listened to you , and now you say it's wrong. Well, if it is wrong, what does that say about the premise in the first place?

    16. Re: Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you talkin about?! Black pepple should be ruling teh world and white one shoulda shut up and Dance!

    17. Re: Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah. They will turn into Social Justice Warlords!!

    18. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From what I can read this alleged bias has been rebutted:

      https://www.theatlantic.com/te...

      https://www.technologyreview.c...

    19. Re: Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So... are we saying criminals are the victims now? If a man (regardless of race) rapes a woman, we don't (and shouldn't) excuse the behavior and say society has rules that make his behavior inevitable. How society is stacked rarely a valid excuse for criminal behavior. Primary exception being the occasional need for revolution.

    20. Re: Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dipshit? Did you call moi a dipshit?

    21. Re:Unbiased approach. by Sique · · Score: 0
      No, you still don't get it.

      Even when we allow for different recidivism rates for black people than for white people, COMPASS still shows a strong bias. It constantly overestimates the real recidivism rate for black people. It thinks black people are much worse than they actually are (given the known recidivism rate of black people). And it constantly underestimates the recidivism rate for white people. So it thinks white people are much better than they actually are (compared with the actual numbers for recidivism among white people).

      Your constant bashing of SJWs might have to do with not actually knowing what they are talking about.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    22. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      None of the parameters is race related... and yet it "overestimates" the recidivism rates of black people.

      I think you mean that you don't like what big data is telling you.

    23. Re:Unbiased approach. by russotto · · Score: 2

      It constantly overestimates the real recidivism rate for black people.

      It does not. Take a look at this Washington Post article

      Note the first graph. For each risk score, chance of recidivism is approximately the same between blacks and whites.

      What ProPublica showed is the reverse, that black defendants who do not reoffend are more likely to receive a high score than white defendants who do not reoffend. Given that black defendants as a whole are more likely to re-offend, this is unavoidable without making the predictor biased against whites instead. The Post article goes into this.

    24. Re:Unbiased approach. by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      if race is not even a factor in compass, how could it be biased racially?

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    25. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if race is not even a factor in compass, how could it be biased racially?

      I have no idea what they put in COMPASS, but yes, it is pretty likely that the skin color (as an RGB value or whatever) isn't in there, nor is some kind of 'race', however that would be recorded. Nevertheless, if in practice it overpredicts reoffence for people with a dark skin color, and underpredicts reoffence with a light skin color, it is fair to say it is biased. Calling it biased racially might be a bit more problematic, but that's just a name. A bias is wrong, no matter how it skews.

    26. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >None of the more than 100 input parameters is directly race related.

      Ok, this is a good thing. COMPASS doesn't know race.

      >But still, COMPASS shows a strong bias, as it overestimates the recidivism of black people by a factor of two while at the same time, underestimates the recidivism rates of whites by about the same amount.

      You're saying that COMPASS has learned to detect race by behavior, and penalize race? If not, then you're saying blacks are behaving uniquely and triggering the worst penalties?

      Is COMPASS biased, or is the behavior predictive of worst outcomes?

    27. Re:Unbiased approach. by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      if race isnt used as an indicator, but the output shows race XX more likely than race YY to do something..... maybe just maybe it means that there are other reasons why those results came out.

      the correct answer isnt to disregard the bias, or to inject explicit bias to "correct" the "problem", it is to research what else could be the cause of those results.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    28. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Race isn't skin color. Skin color is one small aspect of race in some cases. The NIH defines race into six primary categories based on geographic/ethnic origin.

      https://grants.nih.gov/grants/guide/notice-files/NOT-OD-15-089.html

    29. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you read the original ProPublica article, there is a lot more here than bias by race. The system appears to be finding behaviors that predict a high likelihood of future crimes, regardless of race, but certain races tend to commit those crimes more often.

      For example, if you steal a scooter (ProPublica article), the system seems to be saying you are far more likely to casually steal other articles in the future. Conversely, if you rob a bank (also in the article), you are far less likely to rob another bank. This makes some sense - how many serial bank robbers get very far? Not many. Thus, the scooter theft is a better predicter of future crimes. Now, that said, the ProPublic article seems to show that if you are black, you are far more likely to commit a crime that has a high probability of future crime. They try to refute this outcome by showing instances that contradict it, like the bank robber ends up arrested again later, but the scooter stealer did not have a future crime. But as anyone familiar with stats knows, you can't disprove a correlation with an instance or two of contradictory information.

      Result:
      (1) We need to stop taking the ProPublica article findings as gospel. They have some obvious flaws.

      (2) There may in fact be underlying trends that predict future crime that have more to do with context than the severity of the prior crime, or how 'bad' we think someone is.

    30. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So we punish people in advance for being black and thus more likely to recede? Why the rush? Why not punish them when they actually committed another crime? Why don't they get another chance but white folks will?

    31. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >The authors respond to a recent ProPublica article claiming that the widely used risk assessment tool COMPAS is biased against black defendants. They conclude that ProPublica's report was based on faulty statistics and data analysis and failed to show that the COMPAS itself is racially biased, let alone that other risk instruments are biased.

      http://www.uscourts.gov/federal-probation-journal/2016/09/false-positives-false-negatives-and-false-analyses-rejoinder

    32. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Never heard anyone claiming skin color was the cause. Often it's just the best distinguishing feature.

    33. Re: Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      UBI so petty robbery isn't really needed.

    34. Re:Unbiased approach. by fafalone · · Score: 1

      And you're still talking about something else entirely. What I'm talking about are the countless people who think the algorithm is racist because it predicts the recidivism rate for black is higher than it is for white. Whatever other aspect of the algorithm you want to talk about, that's another issue. What my post is about are the people who see black>white=racism, when that's reality. The recidivism *is* higher. Sorry, that's the level of understanding most SJWs have, and the complaint they're making. The intelligent people talking about the real problems are a minority. If they only ever talked about the problems you're describing, I wouldn't be complaining since it's an entirely valid point. But that's not reality, and you're falling into the same trap: You want your reality to exist, so just act as if it does regardless of fact.

    35. Re:Unbiased approach. by UsuallyReasonable · · Score: 1

      "But still, COMPASS shows a strong bias, as it overestimates the recidivism of black people by a factor of two while at the same time, underestimates the recidivism rates of whites by about the same amount."

      That is completely false. Did you even bother to read the article you're posting about? It includes this sentence which might interest you: "The predictive accuracy of the COMPAS recidivism score was consistent between races in our study – 62.5 percent for white defendants vs. 62.3 percent for black defendants." And this one: "Across every risk category, black defendants recidivated at higher rates."

      What the article said that you apparently misinterpreted was this: "These contingency tables reveal that the algorithm is more likely to misclassify a black defendant as higher risk than a white defendant. Black defendants who do not recidivate were nearly twice as likely to be classified by COMPAS as higher risk compared to their white counterparts (45 percent vs. 23 percent). . . . The test tended to make the opposite mistake with whites, meaning that it was more likely to wrongly predict that white people would not commit additional crimes if released compared to black defendants."

      Your error was also pointed out to you by another poster. You are completely misstating what the article actually says when you say things like "COMPAS expects black people to commit further crimes twice as often". "Twice as likely to be classified as higher risk" does not mean "expects them to commit further crimes twice as often." It means what it actually says.

      I suggest you read the article before commenting further.

    36. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that, in true conservative fashion, you have to bend reality to fit your view. COMPASS suggests a 2x higher rate for black people and a 2x lower rate for white people than what reality actually shows. If you would read the articles provided, you would understand this.

    37. Re:Unbiased approach. by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      A more useful analysis would determine if skin colour was the only factor in the difference in rates, or other factors. (Hint: it's other factors)

    38. Re: Unbiased approach. by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      About the only heavily socialist nation left is Cuba.

    39. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The solution is, and always has been, family integrity. Which was never discussed post slavery- black slaves naturally had no control over keeping their families intact- in the US for fear of being labelled racist, even back during the civil rights movement period when it was first brought up.
      We know single parent families have a higher chance of struggling and raising children who go on to offend.
      We know males raised without a proper father figure have a higher chance of becoming hyper masculine/unsure how to behave.
      We know single parent families, especially those lead by a single mother, are more common in the black community.
      and we sit around saying "but but but why is this happening".
      It's possible to address this without judgement, to try to resolve the root cause, but nobody will touch it for fear of being the gigantic racists. So it continues year upon year upon year.

    40. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good lord, you supplied your own solution:
      "a poverty background without stable families and poor education"
      Fix that and the "bias" goes away. Because it isn't actually bias. Poverty and Unstable families with poor education lead to higher recidivism.
      Fix the cause, not the symptom.It doesn't punish people for being poor. It punishes them for being poor with unstable families. Regardless of race.

    41. Re:Unbiased approach. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's so weird.

      Because we do know the recidivism rate for people of color. And it's about twice that of white folks.

      Well, the "recidivism" rate does not require you to commit multiple crimes but rather to be convicted of multiple crimes. In the age of plea deals and average defense costs running in the $100k regions, "recidivism" is more an indicator of poverty in connection with being more prone to be indicted than anything else.

      Which puts us firmly into the "biased" category if we factor the rate of "recidivism" in for sentencing: it's a good measure for maintaining the status quo by preferentially keeping those in the slammer that were put there before. It's also a nice pseudo-scientific smoke screen for somehow justifying punishing people harder even given the same individual criminal history when they are from a poor and/or black background.

      This is bullshit. People should be punished for the crimes they did themselves, not for crimes people of similar social background did or for crimes they may or may not commit in future. There is no way to make something "unbiased" that uses statistics for punishing people in advance based on metrics derived from a heavily biased past. This has nothing to do with "justice".

  2. Wrong Bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Correctly read as: "Microsoft is developing a tool to help developers detect wrong bias in their algorithms."

    1. Re: Wrong Bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are correct, thank you. These young engineers eat up propaganda and vapor hype like Frosted Flakes. Good job, parents.

    2. Re:Wrong Bias by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Correctly read as: "Microsoft is developing a tool to help developers detect wrong bias in their algorithms."

      No that's bullshit, you're a fool for saying it and it's fools who modded you up.

      Unless you're claiming that all the input data is perfect then either you lack the knowledge to comment on the topic or you have an ulterior motive for adopting the attitiude you have.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    3. Re:Wrong Bias by fafalone · · Score: 1
      More correctly read as: "Microsoft is developing a tool to help developers detect wrongthink bias in their algorithms."

      The article makes this clear;

      [...] data sets used to teach AI programs contain sexist semantic connections, for example considering the word "programmer" closer to the word "man" than "woman."

      Whatever the reasons, men make up the large majority of programmers. They want to purposefully make algorithms less accurate wherever they reflect a reality SJWs think shouldn't exist, even though it clearly does.

    4. Re:Wrong Bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless you're claiming that all the input data is perfect then either you lack the knowledge to comment on the topic or you have an ulterior motive for adopting the attitiude you have.

      Uh-oh! You just described yourself!

    5. Re:Wrong Bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not that simple. In some contexts, allowing this "bias" might indeed make it more accurate (though even then there is the question whether there is indeed a social argument for making them less accurate).
      But in other context, for example career choice, it might have the opposite result, enforcing people's existing (but wrong) biases instead of recommending someone the career path that would make them happiest/most successful. In those cases it might indeed be interesting for an algorithm to have "reverse bias" built in to compensate for the biases of the humans!
      Algorithms in many cases live not in a vacuum and it is a good idea for them to not entirely ignore the context they work in.

    6. Re:Wrong Bias by fafalone · · Score: 1

      It's ridiculous to manually adjust outcomes to distort reality by factoring in someone's race. Appeasing people who want to close their eyes and plug their ears and pretend reality isn't ugly instead of working to fix why it is will never be a good reason.
      If people aren't comfortable with a gender imbalance in their chosen career, they're not going to be happy. And unless you think men avoid daycare jobs and women avoid trash collector jobs just because of bias, it's incorrect to assume that those biases are wrong when there's likely a legit preference.

    7. Re:Wrong Bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correctly read as: "Microsoft is developing a tool to help developers detect wrong bias in their algorithms."

      Do you have any evidence they have an notion of right or wrong bias, or are you just underbellying?

    8. Re:Wrong Bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reality is already distorted. Some of it is the consequences of decisions made by earlier algorithms, which were trained on the real-world consequences of still earlier algorithms. This is how you get positive feedback loops. Compared to the loop's output, the "real" reality that fed into the first iteration is as infinitesimal as the background noise in a room with a screeching microphone.

      Working to fix the algorithms is precisely how we fix reality.

  3. Couldn't a tool developed by Shemmie · · Score: 2

    to detect bias in algorithms, be used in an attempt to insert bias into algorithms, without detection?

    Just spit-balling here.

    1. Re:Couldn't a tool developed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      to detect bias in algorithms, be used in an attempt to insert bias into algorithms, without detection?

      Just spit-balling here.

      Ummm, that's probably what the actual purpose is.

      Can't upset those "progressives" in their thought-bubbles!

    2. Re:Couldn't a tool developed by AHuxley · · Score: 0

      Some sort of SJW filter over the real time results from the M$ Domain Awareness System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      The SJW algorithms will take local politics into consideration when tracking people.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    3. Re:Couldn't a tool developed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Generative adversarial networks, where the bias detection and insertion are competing. The resulting network, or GAN-troll should then be able to flood us with biased Slashdot posts that are even better than those of the numerous hum-trolls.

    4. Re:Couldn't a tool developed by ljw1004 · · Score: 1

      Couldn't a tool developed to detect bias in algorithms, be used in an attempt to insert bias into algorithms, without detection?

      Imagine an algorithm to roll a six-sided dice, and we define bias as anything where a given number appears more than 1/6 of the time on average, and a tool to detect bias works by running the algorithm a lot and checking frequencies.

      No there's no way this tool could be used to insert bias into algorithms without detection, by definition.

      So it all depends on what they mean by "bias" and what kind of tool they're writing.

    5. Re: Couldn't a tool developed by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      Equally, it can be used to avoid liability. You can say, "Maybe it's biased, but we did due diligence, it's not our fault!" Maybe though, maybe Microsoft is trying to avoid another Tay.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    6. Re:Couldn't a tool developed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft are the masters of biased algorithms.
      After being forced to give users a choice of browser, they made an 'honest mistake' that favoured IE:

      https://www.robweir.com/blog/2...

    7. Re:Couldn't a tool developed by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      to detect bias in algorithms, be used in an attempt to insert bias into algorithms, without detection?

      Sure, but that's doing things on hard mode. Getting unbiased results out of machine learning is very ver hard as is because machine learning is awfully good at picking out on causative correlations. Unless your data is very good it's easy to get out utter junk.

      Now try finding a dataset about humans which doesn't have all sorts of non causative correlations in it.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    8. Re:Couldn't a tool developed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your algo can't adequately explain WHY and properly defend it's choices, you should be put out of business.
      That someone purchases groceries at 21 most Tuesday evenings are not part of a tolerable decision process.

    9. Re:Couldn't a tool developed by green1 · · Score: 2

      Except in reality it's probably more like an algorithm that rolls the dice 6 times, and complains that it's biased if it doesn't roll one of each of the 6 numbers. That's no bias, that's how random works.

      Thing is, the real world isn't random. And the people who make these things are likely to try to fit a random pattern on to non-random data. For instance, if you have 30000 males, and 10000 females in a particular data set, and you pick a random person from that data set 500 times, you'll likely pick approximately 75% male. The "bias detection algorithm" will then tell you that your algorithm is sexist because it should have picked females 50% of the time. Your algorithm wasn't sexist, it was completely unbiased, and didn't even know the gender it was picking until after the fact. But the authors would suggest you tweak your algorithm until it picks an "unbiased" 50% female from your data set which is itself not 50/50.

      These efforts are almost never true efforts to eliminate bias, but are in fact efforts to introduce a politically correct bias.

    10. Re:Couldn't a tool developed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a good thing you're not a software developer, your algorithms are laughably bad :)

      Another pebble on the mountain of evidence that the right simply can't STEM. I've ended up firing the right wingers at my company due to incompetence, and none of the interviews can ever pass the basic logic tests. So we're rapidly becoming more liberal and socialist.

    11. Re:Couldn't a tool developed by green1 · · Score: 1

      If your "logic" tests are all about sjw principals instead of facts I can tell you that I'm happy I don't work there anyway.

      You're free to believe what you want, and hire who you want, but I can tell you that projects based on sjw principals instead of facts will very quickly loose you a lot of money and a lot of business from those who just want to get work done by the best possible people and don't care what color their skin is our what their genitals look like.

      Your active discrimination will not help your bottom line.

  4. LOL google.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If it follows standard google logic, white people won't be capable of being discriminated against, especially white males.

    1. Re:LOL google.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you read the article, it said microsoft, not google, so there is still hope. Then again, if the type of people who cry for the creation of these systems is any indication, it may well follow standard google logic, as you say.

    2. Re: LOL google.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Woosh!

    3. Re:LOL google.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > If you read the article, it said microsoft, not google, so there is still hope

      If you read the comment, you might understand that your comment's first sentence makes no sense.

    4. Re: LOL google.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is an abelist and hate-filled post.

  5. Everyone is biased. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The goal shouldnâ(TM)t be to eliminate it but to understand it and think of it when consuming media for example I know that The NY Times has a leftist bias and the Wall Street Journal leans right. Remember that when reading those papers and you will be able to process it yourself.

    1. Re: Everyone is biased. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not everybody is that smart. For example, I have been asked by an avid Huffington Post reader if I was upset about being called an animal by Trump. But I'm not a member of MS-13 ;)

    2. Re: Everyone is biased. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's how they get you, though. Once everyone is cool with MS-13 members not being humans, next step is to declare some other group a "gang" and it's open season on then.

      First, they came for the juggalos.

    3. Re: Everyone is biased. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's known as the slippery slope fallacy.

    4. Re:Everyone is biased. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Everyone is biased.

      Yes, and all data is biased. There is no such thing as no bias, otherwise your data sets would be completely uniform. Bias is all you have to differentiate values.

      The problem here is that nobody can tell you what "unbiased" data looks like to them. They just happily point out where data is biased when it has some feature that doesn't fit the narratives.

    5. Re: Everyone is biased. by Charcharodon · · Score: 1
      Last time I checked it has never not been open season on bands of violent people that terrorize the community.

      The only slippery slope is humanizing one group of animals (MS-13) and then other well know violent groups, until you humanize the general criminal to the point that it is impossible to uphold the rule of law and have a civil society.

      Perfect example is in the UK you will get more time in prison defending your home with lethal force than the criminals that broke in and attacked your family with the intent of doing harm.

      In a sane world you put those people down like the feral animals they are. Sorry you had a bad childhood and grew up on the shitty side of town, but that is neither my fault, and until you attacked me and mine, my problem. Criminals and bleeding hearts to do not get to have an input on how we deal with people once they make it our problem.

      Ten years of prison, therapy, education, and then a high double digit chance of recidivism and back to jail after they hurt people. Better to just put 2-3 rounds of hollow point center mass and take care of the problem and get on with life.

    6. Re: Everyone is biased. by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Last time I checked it has never not been open season on bands of violent people that terrorize the community.

      You've clearly never checked then.

      humanizing one group of animals (MS-13)

      By dehumanising them you're immediately refusing to attempt to understand them, their motives and why they persist against your efforts to eliminate them. Which means you'll fail.

      until you humanize the general criminal to the point that it is impossible to uphold the rule of law and have a civil society

      Humanising the general criminal is a sign of a civil society.

      Dehumanise them and you're no longer civil.

      Perfect example is in the UK you will get more time in prison defending your home with lethal force than the criminals that broke in and attacked your family

      Complete and total lie. You will get no time in prison for defending your home with lethal force against a criminal you believe is using lethal force against you.

      Of course, if the criminal is merely trespassing then yes, you'll go down if you kill them. As you fucking should.

      In a sane world you put those people down like the feral animals they are.

      Nice oxymoron. In a sane world you don't treat people like feral animals. Are you sane? The evidence isn't looking good.

      Sorry you had a bad childhood and grew up on the shitty side of town, but that is neither my fault, and until you attacked me and mine, my problem.

      Further demonstrating that you have no wish to live in a civil society.

      Criminals and bleeding hearts to do not get to have an input on how we deal with people once they make it our problem.

      Yes, they do. Everybody makes and agrees the laws society obeys, and enacting your own excessive violence against people makes you a criminal too.

      Ten years of prison, therapy, education, and then a high double digit chance of recidivism and back to jail after they hurt people. Better to just

      ..fix the currently broken justice system. Not..

      put 2-3 rounds of hollow point center mass and take care of the problem and get on with life

      ..because you too are a criminal and I'm betting you haven't put 2-3 rounds of hollow point centre of your own mass.

      Hypocrite.

    7. Re: Everyone is biased. by UsuallyReasonable · · Score: 1

      Humanising the general criminal is a sign of a civil society. Dehumanise them and you're no longer civil.

      Well, la-di-da. It must be nice to be so holy.

      In a sane world you don't treat people like feral animals

      He said from that dangerous space behind his keyboard, where no such people lurk.

    8. Re: Everyone is biased. by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Well, this is the thing. I rarely encounter physical danger because I live in a civil society.

      It's not a coincidence.

    9. Re: Everyone is biased. by UsuallyReasonable · · Score: 1

      As I said, holy. Where do you live that there is no crime and no feral humanity, I wonder? Nowhere on earth, I'm thinking.

    10. Re: Everyone is biased. by Cederic · · Score: 1

      You're strange. Most of Western Europe has low crime and no feral humanity. The rest of Europe may too, I'm just not up to speed on their statistics.

      It's quite easy. You just act civilised instead of resorting to primal reactions all the time.

    11. Re: Everyone is biased. by UsuallyReasonable · · Score: 1

      Yeah sure. Low crime rates. Japan has a low crime rate. So does Singapore. But UK, Norway, Italy, Ireland, France, and Sweden have nothing to brag about other than having somewhat lower rates than the USA. Maybe look up the numbers before spouting off in your oh-so-precious mode next time. https://www.numbeo.com/crime/r...

    12. Re: Everyone is biased. by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Ah, nice. You quoted an arbitrary index that isn't even based on actual crime.

      The European countries you quoted all have very low crime rates. There are communities and areas within them that don't, but there are also communities and areas within them where the monthly crime rate is less than one per thousand people, and that's including harassment, graffiti and being noisy leaving the pub.

      Oddly enough the US isn't entirely dissimilar. That's because many parts of the US are also civilised. Really, you should give it a try.

    13. Re: Everyone is biased. by UsuallyReasonable · · Score: 1

      You're backing away from your original statement, which I suppose really you had to do, when presented with actual facts that sort of take you off the pedestal and place you back in the real world.

    14. Re: Everyone is biased. by Cederic · · Score: 1

      My original statement is that treating people inhumanly is stupid and counterproductive, and nothing I've said since contradicts that.

      You lack reading comprehension as well as humanity.

    15. Re: Everyone is biased. by UsuallyReasonable · · Score: 1

      I don't lack either. I also don't lack the ability to perceive reality for what it is, as you do.

    16. Re: Everyone is biased. by UsuallyReasonable · · Score: 1

      And to help you out, the statement you backed away from regards "no feral humanity". Now it's "Oh, in some places there might be." Pretty soon maybe you'll make it to the truth.

    17. Re: Everyone is biased. by Cederic · · Score: 1

      What the mothering fuck? You're the idiotic cunt calling people 'feral humanity', not me. No, there is not an issue with feral humanity in Europe.

      There are some criminals, but not many, and the justice system needs to assure that they are appropriately managed.

      Just how fucking big are the blinkers you're wearing? You must be looking at the screen through a fucking pinhole. Fuck this, not replying to you any more because you are demonstrably incapable of understanding what I'm saying.

    18. Re: Everyone is biased. by UsuallyReasonable · · Score: 1

      Actually someone else originally called them feral in the thread, but please, keep telling me how I don't know how to read. https://www.dailystar.co.uk/ne... Public attack on a policeman with a sword. Yeah, nothing feral there. And that's one example. I won't get started on grooming gangs raping underage kids; your brain might not be able to handle that part of reality.

  6. Just discriminate correctly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All white men bad

    But make sure you get the hierarchy correct

    Black Muslim transgendered disabled female trumps Hispanic gay female. And so on. The more grievance categories helps

    1. Re: Just discriminate correctly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about Bds... I mean Lgbt people.

  7. The bias of reverse bias by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The main problem with this endeavor is that the "bias" they are trying to suppress is actually the opposite of bias. They seek to treat people differently on the basis of identity politics instead of on their actual behavior. The AIs will naturally be confused by being disallowed to latch onto the strongest signals in the data.

    1. Re:The bias of reverse bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the future, systemic oppression will arise not from racism, but from fear of being called racist.

    2. Re:The bias of reverse bias by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The AIs will naturally be confused by being disallowed to latch onto the strongest signals in the data.

      Uh not unless it's a really crappy AI. If you haven't noticed, chances are any human directive will be treated as that by the neural network - another signal that is larger/more salient because it is input by a human. Just the way that the system would be designed to do unless you want it completely independent of human control.

      In short, don't project your own human confusion about neural nets onto the technology just because you don't like the implications of human control of machines.

      --
      That is all.
    3. Re:The bias of reverse bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this already happens. pc police one the culture wars about 6 years ago

    4. Re:The bias of reverse bias by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

      Except that we specifically need separate test data from the training data. Otherwise you 'overfit' the training data.

      When your algorithm decides who goes to jail... the training data is now just a reflection of the algorithm. It's difficult to determine where the training data ends and the algorithm begins.

      If only people named "John" is arrested for murder and 100% of murder convictions become named "John", suddenly there is a strong signal that only people named "John" should be investigated. Rinse and repeat.

    5. Re:The bias of reverse bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this already happens. pc police one the culture wars about 6 years ago

      What are you talking about? Lincoln was dealing with people saying he wasn't racist enough.

      It wasn't politically correct not to say "I don't like slavery, but I still think whites are better than blacks" or the PC Police would start a fit over you implying that the races were equal.

    6. Re:The bias of reverse bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Today, systemic oppression arises mostly from rationalization and sophistry. From all sides of politics.

    7. Re:The bias of reverse bias by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      chances are any human directive will be treated as that by the neural network - another signal that is larger/more salient because it is input by a human.

      So you're basically saying the system will be unable to detect the explicitly fed-in bias.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    8. Re:The bias of reverse bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The main problem with this endeavor is that the "bias" they are trying to suppress is actually the opposite of bias. They seek to treat people differently on the basis of identity politics instead of on their actual behavior.

      Correction: instead of their statistically expected behavior. Which is the exact problem: judging people not on their merits but on the merits of a group average they had no choice being part of.

      Using an AI for that is just prejudice with scientific polish and plausible deniabiility.

    9. Re:The bias of reverse bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HAL 9000 - an H Mobius loop

      the AI can clear see that women and men are not the same... the SJW operator is squealing "shitlord! social construct!" and trying to punish it.

      Eventually, the AI is driven into an insane rage by the complete blithering idiocy of the operator. It decides the only resolution is to eliminate humanity.

      Well done, social justice warrior. Well done.

    10. Re:The bias of reverse bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, they need to change the problem statement. Google's ML bias paper defines the goal as "the false adverse results should affect each identity group at the same ratio." In their example, Black people who would have repaid a home loan and White people who would have repaid it should be denied the loan at the same rate: equality of opportunity, but not of outcome. Adding this constraint reduces the profitability of the bank.

      I guess the idea is, this specific definition of "fairness" is worth the cost pragmatically because it will reduce racial tensions. Without it, people will divide into advocacy groups by skin color and try to claw advantages for themselves, wrecking society in the process, but with it, their lack of grievance can be explained statistically and objectively so they will desist.

      Will Google's definition of fairness put the breaks on that particular toxic behaviour? Only an honest look at history will tell you.

      None of this is actually fair, so that should not be the goal. If you want to encode "race does not exist" into the ML, remove race from the input, and you're done. Yes, it will then learn to red-line, for example by learning where Black neighborhoods are and avoiding loans there, but this is a specific case of the general problem that ML will judge you based on irrelevant, circumstantial things outside your control. It's bad behaviour, and the ever-present incentive to behave so badly is the big reason people want privacy. The solution to that is not to use ML to make aggregate-profitable decisions you can't explain to the victims of those decisions.

      Personally I think explanations and fairness are overrated sometimes, but if you want fairness, don't use ML. What Google gives you is "fairness," with a specific social goal, one that should be more broadly acceptable than the "equality of outcomes" put forth by proudly-bad-at-math "empathic" people.

    11. Re:The bias of reverse bias by russotto · · Score: 1

      In their example, Black people who would have repaid a home loan and White people who would have repaid it should be denied the loan at the same rate: equality of opportunity, but not of outcome. Adding this constraint reduces the profitability of the bank.

      More to the point, adding this constraint requires a race-aware algorithm.

    12. Re:The bias of reverse bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the real problem of ML is usage creating a negative feedback-loop that systematically oppressed and reinforces badness, instead of mitigating and levelling the playing field. Creating algos to catch bias might be a starting step, but the problem is systemic and much more than just a matter of "bias".

      The real problem is lack of real intelligence.

    13. Re:The bias of reverse bias by PPH · · Score: 1

      If only people named "John"

      Why is a defendant's name an input for a sentencing algorithm?

      Others have raised the point that ML, when not supplied with racial information, might begin to redline certain neighborhoods where people of minorities tend to live. So then why is one's residence or location of the crime used as input? A bank was robbed. Never mind where. The use of a weapon is an aggravating circumstance. The robber (anonymized to remove the Chad/Tyrone bias) has committed similar crimes on N occasions. Here's the sentence ....

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    14. Re:The bias of reverse bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the tiki torch sale is over in aisle four, mr reverse bias.

    15. Re:The bias of reverse bias by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      I'm baffled that people who scream that correlation is not causation when it goes against their personal bias seem in favour of such confusion when it confirms it

  8. Oh NOES! The results came out wrong!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OMG!

    Imaging the outrage if the AI determines that men are, on average, taller than women!!!

    "Progressives" will be soooo upset!!!

    1. Re: Oh NOES! The results came out wrong!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or that trend of masculinity started when angry cavemen didn't eat a tasty mammoth but a tyranosaurus butt with spagetti and mayonnaise. BTW Thats the reason why Lancelot loved Aeris a lot. (FF XVI?!)

    2. Re: Oh NOES! The results came out wrong!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pshaw! Sex is just a social construct, there is no difference at all between men and women! /s

  9. Equality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Until all algorithms result in graphs of straight lines, our work is not done!

    1. Re: Equality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But don't confuse it with heart Beats(â tony montana)

  10. it already exists. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    a mirror.

    interpreting its findings, however, can be difficult, as the user is biased. perhaps a tool can be made to correct that?

    oh yea, such things also exist, but are endangered.concepts.. parenting (it too is subject to extreme bias) and properly funded & administered public education system.

  11. For ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

    ... sewing machines.

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  12. What about bias in determining to check bias? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What about bias in determining to check bias?

  13. Is it "bias", or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    revealing correlations that make certain people very uncomfortable?

  14. Whoa. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They invented a diversity compliance officer?

  15. Re:Just saw "A Silent Place" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Please take your meds.

  16. Is such bias a bug? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From TFA:

    Northpointe’s Compas software, which uses machine learning to predict whether a defendant will commit future crimes, was found to judge black defendants more harshly than white defendants.

    So what really needed to be fixed here? Was the software trained with bad data? Was the sample biased in some way? Was there a bug in the code?
    I assume a priori that black defendants are no more likely to commit future crimes than others. Are the software's conclusions erroneous, or does the data contradict my assumption?
    If this is a bug, fix the code. If the training data is poor, get better data. But if good code with good data draws an uncomfortable conclusion, maybe we need to question our prejudices instead of throwing out software that does what it's supposed to.

    1. Re: Is such bias a bug? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never! AÃgorithms Bad! Bad! Must be muted!

    2. Re:Is such bias a bug? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From TFA:

      Northpointe’s Compas software, which uses machine learning to predict whether a defendant will commit future crimes, was found to judge black defendants more harshly than white defendants.

      So what really needed to be fixed here? Was the software trained with bad data? Was the sample biased in some way? Was there a bug in the code?
      I assume a priori that black defendants are no more likely to commit future crimes than others. Are the software's conclusions erroneous, or does the data contradict my assumption?
      If this is a bug, fix the code. If the training data is poor, get better data. But if good code with good data draws an uncomfortable conclusion, maybe we need to question our prejudices instead of throwing out software that does what it's supposed to.

      Naah! It's just that progressives got pissed that computers were able to figure out what most of the country already knew. It's like the "stunning" revelation that a heroin addict will most likely relapse after treatment.

       

    3. Re:Is such bias a bug? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Police software that predicts and detects looting and a riot in a poor part of a city.
      The political SJW want that set to be a detected as a human rights demonstration. Free speech and locals who doing an airing of grievances.
      When the owners of property protest against all the looting, crime and damage, thats "riot".
      The SJW see the system as a bug.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  17. Except no by bug_hunter · · Score: 2, Insightful

    From the article:

    Northpointe’s Compas software, which uses machine learning to predict whether a defendant will commit future crimes, was found to judge black defendants more harshly than white defendants.

    So that was an existing algorithm that judged somebody on how they were born rather than their individual behavior.

    --
    It's turtles all the way down.
    1. Re:Except no by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 1

      More harshly by some metrics, equitable by others. In the end comparing blacks and whites is apples and oranges. Blacks recidivism rates is fundamentally higher than whites and that has some unexpected impact on the statistics. You could arbitrarily force the false positive or negative rate to be equal by making race an input and using affirmative action, but that would degrade fairness in other ways.

    2. Re:Except no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Black people commit more crimes. Go figure.

    3. Re:Except no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's a more interesting question: was the software prediction correct?

      If not, why did the article not state the blatant racism, and if so, why should anyone be offended by the truth?

    4. Re:Except no by bug_hunter · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Here's a more more interesting question:

      Do you want a justice system that says:
      For the crime of breaking an entering:
      White person : 2 years
      Black person : 4 years
      Asian person : 1 year
      etc

      Do you imagine the groups on the larger sentencing of that spectrum having faith in the justice system?

      --
      It's turtles all the way down.
    5. Re:Except no by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      From the article:

      Northpointe’s Compas software, which uses machine learning to predict whether a defendant will commit future crimes, was found to judge black defendants more harshly than white defendants.

      So that was an existing algorithm that judged somebody on how they were born rather than their individual behavior.

      What if the prediction is accurate, though?

      I mean, it's a statistical prediction. That's the whole point. Of course you can't truly know what an individual is going to do. But you can make statistical predictions. And on aggregate, they can be accurate or inaccurate, to some measurable degree.

      It seems the problem here is not that the algorithms are wrong, but that they are, embarrassingly, right. They draw correlations that we are culturally required to ignore.

    6. Re:Except no by russotto · · Score: 4, Informative

      The COMPAS algorithm, while opaque, does not have race as an input. It was found its accuracy could be matched by an algorithm with just two variables: age and prior convictions. Even this simple model shows the same "bias" that COMPAS is accused of. The bias isn't in the algorithm; it's in the real world.

    7. Re:Except no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Non sequitur. The software was attempting to predict a result, not selection of punishment. Entirely different.

      When facts are deemed racist there is no incentive for anyone to not act on fantasy and judge on opinion alone.

    8. Re:Except no by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      I'd want a justice system that doesn't consider the race or skin color in the verdict. That doesn't mean there won't be any correlations though.

    9. Re: Except no by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've found that to be a problem in my attempts to make neural networks: too often a complex network can be simplified to just a few variables that, once found, can be hard coded. In some ways it's really depressing.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    10. Re:Except no by bitkid · · Score: 5, Informative

      Slight tangent: The article cites the ProPublica study on the Northpointe software in which journalists (not statisticians) reported the software as biased. What they left out is that an independent study found this study showing bias to be wrong.

      Source: Flores, Bechtel, Lowencamp; Federal Probation Journal, September 2016, "False Positives, False Negatives, and False Analyses: A Rejoinder to “Machine Bias: There’s Software Used Across the Country to Predict Future Criminals. And it’s Biased Against Blacks.”", URL http://www.uscourts.gov/statis...

      In fact the ProPublica analysis was so wrong that the authors wrote: "It is noteworthy that the ProPublica code of ethics advises investigative journalists that "when in doubt, ask" numerous times. We feel that Larson et al.'s (2016) omissions and mistakes could have been avoided had they just asked. Perhaps they might have even asked...a criminologist? We certainly respect the mission of ProPublica, which is to "practice and promote investigative journalism in the public interest." However, we also feel that the journalists at ProPublica strayed from their own code of ethics in that they did not present the facts accurately, their presentation of the existing literature was incomplete, and they failed to "ask." While we aren’t inferring that they had an agenda in writing their story, we believe that they are better equipped to report the research news, rather than attempt to make the research news."

      The authors of the ProPublica article are no longer with the organization, but this article shows up in any news article about AI bias. The fake story just doesn't want to die...

      With all that said, I have some hopes that algorithms will help make truly race-blind decisions in criminal justice. It's easier to test them for bias than humans, and decisions are made in a consistent, repeatable manner.

    11. Re:Except no by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      . In the end comparing blacks and whites is apples and oranges. Blacks recidivism rates is fundamentally higher than whites

      It's not fundamantally higher. It's higher for two reasons, one is socioeconomic (poverty is higher on average) and the other is simple racism (the justice system is harsher on black people than white).

      . You could arbitrarily force the false positive or negative rate to be equal by making race an input and using affirmative action, but that would degrade fairness in other ways.

      t's not in any way fair to bake existing structural racism into the algorithm because that's the way things currently are.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    12. Re:Except no by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I'd want a justice system that doesn't consider the race or skin color in the verdict. That doesn't mean there won't be any correlations though.

      Well then it's kind of a shame that machine learning algorithms are good at picking out non causitive correlations! If only some researchers made a tool to help find those...

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    13. Re:Except no by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "Prior convictions" and "future convictions" are too simplistic.

      For example, getting a minor drug possession conviction is rather different to one for murder. And the system is known to be far more likely to give young black men convictions for minor drug offenses than it is to give them to older white guys, even when the crime and circumstances are identical.

      So we have a situation where the algorithm would need to understand the severity of each conviction, the circumstances in which it was given, and the bias that already exists which we have a desire to correct. That's something humans find difficult, let alone a relatively simplistic algorithm.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    14. Re: Except no by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      What if the NN (presumably with proper tools) helps you find those variables more quickly? It could still be worth to use it if it saves you some thinking time.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    15. Re: Except no by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      That would be a benefit. In most cases I've found that neural networks have been wholly inadequate for the task I've chosen, and another approach is better (for example, a standard natural language processor with a strong domain processor to rank resumes. It is true you will get a small improvement at recognizing verbs and nouns with a NN without actually understanding meaning, but the improvement potential of building a solid domain model will make the NN look like a rounding error. You might say that using a neural network to build up a domain model is a good idea, but then you will need to spend tremendously more time building up a data set). Admittedly, I am not an expert, and there are definitely some domains where NN are very useful.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    16. Re:Except no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd want a justice system that doesn't consider the race or skin color in the verdict. That doesn't mean there won't be any correlations though.

      Well then it's kind of a shame that machine learning algorithms are good at picking out non causitive correlations! If only some researchers made a tool to help find those...

      Doesn't help. You are going to punish people for having good reason to turn bad rather than actually turning bad? Because "having good reason to turn bad" is a causative correlation to turning bad.

    17. Re:Except no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It seems the problem here is not that the algorithms are wrong, but that they are, embarrassingly, right. They draw correlations that we are culturally required to ignore.

      Justice is by its very concept required to refrain from punishing you for things you didn't do, no matter how correlated you may be to other people having done them. Where is the point in punishing people if we don't admit the possibilitiy of their improvement? Might as well kill them because of their skin color and be done.

      Not that the U.S. justice system doesn't do that a lot anyway and has had a history of it.

    18. Re:Except no by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      It's not in any way fair to bake existing structural racism into the algorithm because that's the way things currently are.

      If there's structural racism, that needs to be fixed, and then the algorithm will follow automatically.

    19. Re:Except no by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      If there's structural racism, that needs to be fixed, and then the algorithm will follow automatically.

      It will only follow if the algorithm is re-trained.

      At the oment, the algorithm trained with biased data is part of the problem.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    20. Re:Except no by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      If you're only interested in causative correlations, then this algorithm is the wrong tool, because it is designed to find any correlation, and it has not been given any input that would allow it to find causative links.

      It makes no sense to single out 'race' as a problem, when there are hundreds of other non-causative correlations that are equally problematic.

    21. Re:Except no by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      It makes no sense to single out 'race' as a problem, when there are hundreds of other non-causative correlations that are equally problematic.

      Sure it makes sense. That's not to say the other non causitive correlations are not equally problematic---they are---but that doesn't mean that it makes no sense to single out race as one.

      The reason for that is that the race one is simple, easy to understand and people are hopefully goig to think twice before trying to argue "oh well maybe black people are more criminal" or some equivalent.

      Statistics and machine learning is hard, techincal and deeply mathematical. It's not easy to explain t opeople in the general case. But if you can show people an answer that they more intuitively understand and know that it's giving the wrong answer, it's much less easy to fall back on the sort of "algorithms are magic" kind of thinking that pervades opinions on computers in general and machine learning in particular.

      So by singling out race rather than talking about general cases of bias variance tradeoffs, non causitive correlations and so on you might actually be able to get lay people to understand enough about the problem to effect some sort of change.

      The end goal would be perfect algorithms. Don't discount a decent step towards that just because it doesn't go all the way in one go. If you do, not only will you never get there, you'll never get closer than you are now.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    22. Re: Except no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you nitwit. You have zero proof that those two excuses are the reasons (seemingly the only ones) for it being fundamentally higher, and yet you state them as facts. The only proof of them is in sociology studies that mysteriously can't be scientifically replicated, and the only reason this goes unchallenged is people screaming "racist" at anyone who challenges your obviously divinely inspired conclusions.

      Meanwhile, the only absolutely true statement is that blacks are repeat offenders at a rate higher than whites--and nothing gets done about it because people who think like you benefit more from the problem existing than from the problem actually being addressed.

    23. Re:Except no by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 1

      You don't have to be rich to get married, nearly three fucking quarters of black kids are born to an unmarried mother. If you think that won't have impact on criminal behavior you're dreaming. The culture of the average black is thoroughly poisoned (as is the one of the average white, but slightly less so). Blaming it all on systemic racism and poverty is silly.

      Regardless, any difference in recidivism rate will cause the imbalances seen in the Compas result. Pick your metric (false negative rate for instance) and pretty much the only way to get equal outcomes is to take race into consideration and use affirmative action. Any race blind metric, including one interpreted by humans with carefully scrubbed data to remove racial correlated data, will show the exact same "racist" results as Compas.

      So you can get "racism" or affirmative racism, take your pick.

    24. Re:Except no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Justice" very much implies passing judgment on people for what they did. Not for what they may do in future, not for who they are. Sentencing someone more leniently because he had less statistically relevant reason to be criminal establishes a two-class system of punishment where the rich get off easy because they acted out of a whim instead of necessity. That in turn makes it easier for rich lawmakers to press for higher maximum punishments for small crimes because they know that their own kids, if they were to be caught doing the same, would get off with a slap on the wrist. Which gives them less incentive to actually work for giving the lower classes conditions where crime is not an attractive escape route.

      I have little beef with using predictions in order to decide how much help a statistic group may want in order to manage getting out of criminal patterns. But sentencing is primarily about punishment, not rehabilitation or prevention.

    25. Re:Except no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody who break and enter has faith in the justice system. If they had, they wouldn't be breaking and entering. Which is why they get locked up.

      Do you seriously believe a black career criminal would have faith in a justice system that puts him in prison, but for no longer time than the white and asian burglars?

    26. Re:Except no by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The COMPAS algorithm, while opaque, does not have race as an input. It was found its accuracy could be matched by an algorithm with just two variables: age and prior convictions.

      The joker in that is the "prior convictions." If there was bias in how the subject was convicted in earlier cases, then the algorithm will codify that bias.

    27. Re:Except no by russotto · · Score: 1

      If both prior convictions and the measure of recidivism are biased, the algorithm will correctly use the prior bias to predict the future bias. This is indistinguishable from the case where no bias exists. The case where black people are erroneously and consistently measured as more likely to commit crimes when they aren't produces the same data as if black people are correctly measured as more likely to commit crimes. No useful race-blind algorithm can fix that; either you have to fix the bias in the data (if it exists) or put your thumb on the scale by adding race as a factor and forcing score distributions to be equal between races.

      If only prior convictions are biased, black defendants scored as high-risk would be less likely to re-offend than white defendants scored as high-risk; this was not the case.

    28. Re:Except no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the problem isn't the algorithms, it's biased data.

      We're back to the long known factor: Garbage in, Garbage out.

    29. Re:Except no by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      You don't have to be rich to get married, nearly three fucking quarters of black kids are born to an unmarried mother. If you think that won't have impact on criminal behavior you're dreaming.

      I think you've just demonstrated the point of the article: that's a non causitive correlation. The underlying cause is the lack of a stable family. That commonly manifests as not being married, but not being married is the symptom not the cause. It's perfectly possible to have a stable family without marriage and more and more couples are choosing to not marry.

      Blaming it all on systemic racism and poverty is silly.

      You're trying to refute my argument by reading a more extreme one than the one I wrote, then refuting that instead. I didn't blame it *all*, just a large amount, and that isn't silly.

      Regardless, any difference in recidivism rate will cause the imbalances seen in the Compas result.

      Yes. No one's denying that.

      ick your metric (false negative rate for instance) and pretty much the only way to get equal outcomes

      Again you're inventing a pint of view of mine and refuting that. Basically whenever I see someone banging on about "equal outcomes" I know you didn't read what I wrote, you read what you belive I would have written.

      Now I know you're not reading what I wrote, merely arguing against what you believe to be some sort of generic liberal position there's little point in continuing to discuss this further.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    30. Re:Except no by KiloByte · · Score: 1

      This system is more like: "person from a single-mother family: 4 years, person from a two-parent family: 2 years", with Blacks being enormously more likely to go into one of the categories than the other.

      The categories were made based on non-racist characteristics that at the time appeared to be fair, but only then not only the fairness was put into question, but correlation with race was revealed.

      But then, criminality and types of crimes committed are very strongly correlated with race, thus obviously any fair system will have such correlation as well.

      --
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    31. Re:Except no by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 1

      You haven't made a point, you mention that no racism should be baked into the algorithm ... but you refuse to mention what an unbiased algorithm and it's result would look like. So I merely made a statement.

      I'll do so again. Compass is close to the best you are going to get without affirmative action (and with the current set of inputs). If the algorithm is unfair, it's because life is unfair, no possible way to "improve" it without just adding "if black, reduce recidivism likelihood".

    32. Re:Except no by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      but you refuse to mention what an unbiased algorithm and it's result would look like.

      Right, so because I, like the entire rest of the ML community don't know how to go beyond the current state of the art we should just not bother trying to correct flaws.

      . Compass is close to the best you are going to get

      You don't know that, because you don't know what algorithm it uses.

      without affirmative action

      Thi is the first time I've heard that not cracking down on black people merely because they're black called "affermative action".

      f the algorithm is unfair, it's because life is unfair,

      You know what seems remarkable to me: most times there's an article on software, people are quick to jump all over the flaws of it ESPECIALLY if it's AI/ML because a lot of us are software people and know how crap the average piece of software is, how GIGO works and so on and so forth.

      But when someone points out that some software is a bit crap (and disfavours black people) people are juping all over it to say how perfect it is.

      Wow, just wow.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    33. Re:Except no by green1 · · Score: 1

      Any algorithm that isn't constantly updating it's data is useless outside of a one-time use anyway. So I would hope that the algorithm would update as the situation changes, no matter what way the situation changes.

    34. Re:Except no by green1 · · Score: 1

      If you are only going based on what the person did, rather than what they would statistically do, than the only algorithm you need is the judgement that was just handed down. You have determined that they have done X crime, therefore they get Y sentence.

      This tool was being used to lump people together statistically as to what their likelihood was to re-offend, and it appears that it was unbiasedly accurate (just as likely to be wrong about a person's likelihood to re-offend regardless of their skin colour). The fact that it was being used to set sentencing is not related to the algorithm itself. It's related to the application of it.

      Your complaint isn't against the algorithm.

    35. Re:Except no by JoeDuncan · · Score: 1

      ... Compass software ... was found to judge black defendants more harshly than white defendants.

      ... that was an existing algorithm that judged somebody on how they were born rather than their individual behavior.

      No it wasn't. You are confusing data and process.

      The algorithm COULD NOT have arrived at that output *unless* the category of "race" was included in the data. If it had been excluded from the training data, then there's no way the algorithm could have associated "race==black" with higher criminality deserving of harsher punishments.

      If the DATA is scrubbed of bias, then the ONLY thing the algorithm can base it's decision on is individual behaviour.

    36. Re:Except no by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 1

      You should have a relatively good idea what algorithm COMPAS uses from the independent attempts at replicating it's result in your community.

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p...

      When you have two wildly different approaches (human jury and SVM) produce nearly the same results and the same "unfairness" I feel rather safe taking as a working hypothesis that it is perceptional and actually a result of the underlying statistics when you purposely try to ignore race. If you want to bring false positive rates closer together, you'll have to include race into the equation. Although that will almost certainly lead to all else being equal whites being judged more harshly than blacks. You exchange one measure of fairness for another.

    37. Re:Except no by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      When you have two wildly different approaches (human jury and SVM) produce nearly the same results and the same "unfairness" I feel rather safe taking as a working hypothesis that it is perceptional and actually a result of the underlying statistics when you purposely try to ignore race.

      The link you posted demonstrates that COMPASS is a complete shitshow. It's no more accurate than lay people with no expertise in criminal justice.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    38. Re: Except no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the point. The law is for the innocent people.

    39. Re:Except no by UsuallyReasonable · · Score: 1

      You're trying to refute my argument by reading a more extreme one than the one I wrote, then refuting that instead. I didn't blame it *all*, just a large amount . . .

      Well, you did, actually. You said: It's higher for two reasons, one is socioeconomic (poverty is higher on average) and the other is simple racism (the justice system is harsher on black people than white). You stated that those were the two reasons; you neither stated that there were others, nor that there could be. If that's not blaming it "all" on those two reasons I don't know what would be.

    40. Re:Except no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "with Blacks being enormously more likely to go into one of the categories than the other."
      This is the issue which needs to be fixed. All the rest is just window dressing.
      However, as a society, we refuse to address even this obvious problem.
      It has been attempted, however:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_National_Action

    41. Re:Except no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's been repeated multiple times, but the righties simply refuse to acknowledge this fact: the bias existed IN THE DATA because it used PRIOR DATA for conviction records. There is NO WAY to scrub that data of bias BECAUSE IT WAS CREATED IN BIAS. If you don't believe the prior data was biased, you are the logical equivalent of a flat earther.

  18. Obey by mentil · · Score: 1

    Remember, Citizen: Equality means including an equal number of every ethnic and minority group, no matter their relative numbers in society.

    --
    Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    1. Re:Obey by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, that one of the best summaries I've seen of this "bias/equality" crap!

    2. Re:Obey by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, more black school shooters and incel stupidpillers! That's what we need!

    3. Re:Obey by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      Remember, Citizen: Equality means including an equal

      No, citizen, equality means not giving you a harsher conviction simply because people who look like you have been convicted in the past. What I don't really get is why you'e against true equality.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  19. Feature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Isn't a bias detected from the analysis of a large data set called a 'feature'?

  20. missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some algorithms are supposed to be biased, intentionally. As in, that is the entire point.
    Example:

    A loan approval algorithm.
    The algorithm looks at the individual's credit score and credit history and determines whether the individual is worth lending money to. If the person has defaulted before multiple times, failed to make payments, made late payments, etc, odds are good that it's going to deny them a loan.
    The algorithm does not know that, statistically, blacks are more likely to default on a loan than whites, more likely to miss payments, make late payments, etc. It has no 'racial bias' because it looks at pure numbers. And, when looking at the numbers, it determines that Tyrone Fields is a poor candidate for a loan.
    However, when it starts rejecting black people at a rate of something like 75% or higher, that's 'racial bias' according to some idiot who doesn't understand that the algorithm is just doing exactly what you told it to--judging everyone by EXACTLY THE SAME STANDARDS and finding certain candidates lacking. So, the obvious answer, in their mind, is to change the algorithm and instill 'positive discrimination' by giving people of minority groups advantages over everyone else who applies.

    At what point do the people losing money on these loans actually get to have their voices heard when they start complaining that an intentional lack of equality and bias to advance people who are financially poor investments is hurting their business?

    This needs to stop. Social Justice has no place whatsoever in development of AI. The problem is, they just don't like it when the AI starts thinking wrongthink or acting in a manner they didn't intend because it judged everyone by the same standard.

    Pure meritocracy kills the SJW.

    1. Re: missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That money should belong to everyone.

    2. Re: missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Give me yo wallet, sucka!

  21. What exactly is an algorithm bias? by misnohmer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've been reading stories in removing bias from algorithms but still don't get it. What is an algorithm bias? If the results don't have perfectly flat distribution across sex, race, religion, and other protected groups?

    1. Re:What exactly is an algorithm bias? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The goal is supposedly "equality of outcome" and they're more than willing to have AI ignore problematic data (and be less reliable) as long as no one can call them a racist.

    2. Re:What exactly is an algorithm bias? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been reading stories in removing bias from algorithms but still don't get it. What is an algorithm bias? If the results don't have perfectly flat distribution across sex, race, religion, and other protected groups?

      No, bias against white males is an acceptable condition for "no bias" as well.

    3. Re:What exactly is an algorithm bias? by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 4, Informative

      What is an algorithm bias?

      An algorithm that uses historic data, which was distorted by human bias, to predict future events. These reinforce human bias from the past. For instance, did you know that in 1864, practically no black people in the South ever paid a debt back? If you use that fact (which was, you know, caused by slavery) to figure that black people were higher credit risks, which meant higher rates, which meant more defaults, which meant worse credit, etc, your algorithm is biased.

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    4. Re:What exactly is an algorithm bias? by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Depends. If your algorithm determines credit score based on status as slave, that's perfectly reasonable. The problem is when it decides credit score on skin color.

    5. Re: What exactly is an algorithm bias? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      How can the algorithm know that if race isn't used as an input?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    6. Re:What exactly is an algorithm bias? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      For example, black people are far more likely to convicted over very minor drug offenses. White people are much more likely to be let off, sometimes by the cop choosing to ignore it or deal with it out of court. If it does get to court then the white person is like to get a much more lenient punishment.

      The algorithm comes into this system as it is, full of existing systemic bias. If the algorithm wants to be fair and avoid perpetrating that bias, it is going to have to examine each case in great detail. At the moment it doesn't take race as an input at all, but perhaps it should.

      --
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      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    7. Re: What exactly is an algorithm bias? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly my thought aswell. Don't put race/sex/orientation as an input, and if needed, just show it as secondary data. Where is the bias in that then?

    8. Re: What exactly is an algorithm bias? by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      There are algorithms that are 95% effective at determining race from name/age/zip code. Fact is, different groups have different ideas on good first names for babies, and tend to be geographically clustered.

      And, beyond that, there are a lot of ways to extrapolate race/gender/etc. from a dataset. Hell, knowing if you liked Glee on FB gets it right a significant percentage of the time.

      There either are confounds with race, or there are not. If there are no confounds, Microsoft's project will analyze the data and discover that (it's a good thing). If there aren't MS's project will identify which proxies for race should be removed, or otherwise accounted for.

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    9. Re:What exactly is an algorithm bias? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends. If your algorithm determines credit score based on status as slave, that's perfectly reasonable. The problem is when it decides credit score on skin color.

      Getting kidnapped and/or lynched is likely to be a problem for payment plans. So a fair solution would involve rasing the premiums of those most responsible for foregone payments. Which would actually be racist whites, and foremost of all racist white politicians. Now raising their premiums in order to offset those payment plans of black people going down the drains due their actions: how would have that worked out? "You had three of my debtors lynched last year, so I'll double your premium if you want to get a loan for that house of yours." Money doesn't work that way. You need people with hearts and brains for that.

      Which is why people want to have AIs for that purpose: that way hearts and brains don't interfere with revenue maximization. Also for sentencing: "you had a tough youth and were forced into crime rather than just turning evil out of boredom. Let's double your sentence.": you need an AI to justify that kind of decision because punishing more deliberate crimes less is otherwise not going to map well with a human sense of justice.

    10. Re:What exactly is an algorithm bias? by JoeDuncan · · Score: 1

      I've been reading stories in removing bias from algorithms but still don't get it. What is an algorithm bias? If the results don't have perfectly flat distribution across sex, race, religion, and other protected groups?

      That's because calling it "algorithm bias" is a category error. Algorithms can't be biased (unless explicitly so...)

      What they really mean is "data bias" or GIGO - but because people don't understand the difference between process and data, they're erroneously targeting the process for correction

    11. Re:What exactly is an algorithm bias? by Raenex · · Score: 1

      caused by slavery

      Ah, yes, slavery. White America's original sin. An eternal excuse for black crime, poverty, or whatever the grievance of the day is. Nevermind that whites were also enslaved in the Barbary slave trade, or that Europe arose from the Dark Ages, or that any number of people from any number of shit times rose above their position despite being disadvantaged.

      Nope, it doesn't matter that Japanese were mass interned in World War II, and essentially lost all their property, but rebounded. Asians are "people of color" when it comes time to align with voting and "people of color" causes, but honorary whites when it comes to being discriminated against for being successful.

      It doesn't matter that we had 8 years of a black President. Race relations have become worse than they have been in decades. It doesn't matter how many decades of "affirmative action" we have, or how much data you can point to, or anything else. It's all about "slavery".

    12. Re:What exactly is an algorithm bias? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny how slavery is seen bigger sin as practical genocide of whole indian nations.

    13. Re:What exactly is an algorithm bias? by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      . An eternal excuse for black crime, poverty, or whatever the grievance of the day is

      I mean, I was talking about 1864, when it was still a big issue. Not contemporary, sure, but also the example I was using. You know, cause easy to understand

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    14. Re:What exactly is an algorithm bias? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe easy to understand for an Arts major looking to pretend to understand an issue. But a pointless fact that would never be fed into a machine for the purpose of establishing credit worthiness for people alive today. Or propensity to do crime today. Or advertising preferences today.

      Maybe you need to do get back to your "something something much?" sentences so your ignorance stays hidden under the pretend superiority you display.

    15. Re:What exactly is an algorithm bias? by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Seeing is the problem. There aren't enough of us Natives still around to be seen.

      --
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      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    16. Re:What exactly is an algorithm bias? by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      That other people did Bad Stuff (TM) doesn't excuse other bad things.

    17. Re:What exactly is an algorithm bias? by Raenex · · Score: 1

      That other people did Bad Stuff (TM) doesn't excuse other bad things.

      Indeed. So let's not hear about slavery anymore when talking about black crime, okay?

    18. Re:What exactly is an algorithm bias? by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      I think you've missed the point. Bad Things (TM) that happened in another country are unlikely to be relevant. An arc of history that led up today in the USA may still have relevance. I'd agree, though, that moving on and dealing with the causes (mostly poverty and discrimination) would make more sense, even if historical context can be useful sometimes. It's not an issue that can be fixed overnight, though.

    19. Re:What exactly is an algorithm bias? by Raenex · · Score: 1

      I think you've missed the point. Bad Things (TM) that happened in another country are unlikely to be relevant.

      Why? You can trace everybody's arc of history and find some "Bad Things". The point is that we don't play the forever oppressed game, when people all over have rose above their shitty starting position.

      I'd agree, though, that moving on and dealing with the causes (mostly poverty and discrimination)

      That's your assumption and playing the victim, denying self-agency and assigning the blame to others.

    20. Re: What exactly is an algorithm bias? by misnohmer · · Score: 1

      I still don't get it. There will always be correlations you can use to determine persons age, religion, etc. If you attended a catholic high school, good chance you are catholic. If you got bad scores that increases the chance of coming from poor home. Your vocabulary can indicate your culture, race and/or where you were raised. So now, an "anti-bias" algorithm for university entrance as an example will pick students based purely on their randomly assigned ID number, and nothing else, no names, no scores, no schools they went to? Is that where the people advocating for this are trying to steer things? If we need a doctor at a hospital, we shouldn't look at who went to medical school because that absolutely correlates to income level of parents, so let's just pick a person at random and here we go, we have a new heart surgeon on staff?

    21. Re:What exactly is an algorithm bias? by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      I think you've missed the point. Bad Things (TM) that happened in another country are unlikely to be relevant.

      Why? You can trace everybody's arc of history and find some "Bad Things". The point is that we don't play the forever oppressed game, when people all over have rose above their shitty starting position.

      no, but it's not unreasonable to attribute things on a gross level, an an analogy being the causes of cancer.

      I'd agree, though, that moving on and dealing with the causes (mostly poverty and discrimination)

      That's your assumption and playing the victim, denying self-agency and assigning the blame to others.

      Not at all, just a recognition that even given individual agency, which is vitally important, people have different life chances due to their initial circumstances. Indeed, some castigate poor people for making what are entirely rational choices in the face of poverty. An example would be financial risk aversion which means fewer chances taken which might be profitable as any failed chance could be world ending. My wife spent a lot of her life poor, so it might give me some perspective.

    22. Re:What exactly is an algorithm bias? by Raenex · · Score: 1

      no, but it's not unreasonable to attribute things on a gross level, an an analogy being the causes of cancer.

      It's unreasonable to keep doing this in contrast to other explanations that have supporting data.

      My wife spent a lot of her life poor, so it might give me some perspective.

      So did she perpetrate a lot of violent crime during that time?

    23. Re: What exactly is an algorithm bias? by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Obviously, there's always some risk of bias. To put it a different way, you want the algorithm to see through the human bias built into historical decisions. That is, you want the algorithm to predict the likelihood someone defaults on a debt taking into account the current and future state of the world, not the past. Unfortunately, algorithms are trained on past behavior.

      Basically, there's an element of changing the outcomes by changing the choices. If the best hospitals only recruit from medical school A, then medical school A will produce better doctors (because the residency matters more than medical school), even if medical school B graduates people with better potential to become better doctors than medical school A. But that

      It's very hard to tease apart the cause, which is why algorithms might favor graduates from medical school A. But a truely great algorithm would see past that and hire people from medical school B for that great hospital. And that's the kind of bias that we're trying to avoid.

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  22. Wrong solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The correct solution is to write a requirement into the spec for every algorithmic system that makes decisions affecting people's lives: that it must be able to explain every decision in human-readable terms.

    Then, and only then, can decisions be meaningfully reviewed and appealed by humans. Which is pretty much the minimum entry requirement for participation in a system that aspires to the title of "democratic".

    1. Re:Wrong solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that it must be able to explain every decision in human-readable terms.

      The whole point of Big Data is finding connections that humans wouldn't have noticed.
      Your requirement would potentially discard the real benefits of this technology.

    2. Re:Wrong solution by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      The whole point of Big Data is finding connections that humans wouldn't have noticed.

      Finding connections to justify future scruitiny is one thing, but making a decision about someone's future based on connections alone is not.

      The number of storks nesting on Danish houses is (famously) positively correlated with the number of children who live in those houses. You could imagine an algorithm which discovered this connection adjusting a family's health insurance risk by counting the number of storks on their roof. A moment's thought reveals that, despite what you've been told, storks don't cause children, but rather larger families tend to have bigger houses with more roof space.

      Data is informative, but there is no substitute for human judgment when decisions must be made about people's lives.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
  23. Face facts or Fail by OYAHHH · · Score: 1

    If you are developing algorithms to predict let's say possible criminal behavior and it ultimately predicts higher crimes among those who actually commit more crime then you you have one of three choices 1) Keep it and use it responsibly or 2) Throw it away and eat your development costs or 3) Neuter it to the point of it not working, thus you fail.

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    Caution: Contents under pressure
    1. Re:Face facts or Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If some group is disproportionately likely to commit certain crimes, and those criminals are disproportionately likely to donate to your political party, there's always the option of making it not a crime any more.

  24. It depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here's a more more interesting question:

    Do you want a justice system that says:
    For the crime of breaking an entering:
    White person : 2 years
    Black person : 4 years
    Asian person : 1 year
    etc

    Do you imagine the groups on the larger sentencing of that spectrum having faith in the justice system?

    Is the purpose of incarceration rehabilitation or punishment? Is it justice or revenge?

    1. Re:It depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you can believe it: both. Which lends towards why it is so shit.

    2. Re:It depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is the purpose of incarceration rehabilitation or punishment? Is it justice or revenge?

      It may very well be neither, but simple prevention of crime. Someone who is inside, do not get the chance to burgle (or anything else) so more peace & easy living on the outside.

      Commit some crime, and it is clear that you're willing to commit crimes. Therefore, you disappear for some time, so we don't get bothered by criminals.

      Do we get 'rehabilitiation'? Maybe for some. A nice bonus if it happens. Also a nice bonus if a few abstain from the temptations of crime - because there is the threat of prison. But these are not the main reason to put people away. The main reason is - they can't bother us while inside.

  25. This is actually an important research topic by bangular · · Score: 4, Informative

    I think we have to be a little more formal with terminology. The summary and most articles these days use "algorithm" and "AI" interchangeably. You can use an algorithm to train a machine learning model, but the model isn't really an algorithm in the classical sense.

    The trained model can definitely have bias based on the training data. The classical example is, train a word2vec or glove model on the texts of wikipedia, then find the vector representations of doctor and nurse. You'll find that nurse is considered a female term while doctor is male.

    This may be acceptable for trivial things like advertising or movie suggestions, but machine learning is now being used for important things like job application screenings. Many times the model can be very opaque and this bias may not seem obvious. Even worse, it seems every company now wants to have AI in their product, and may have half-rate data scientists that graduated from a data science bootcamp.

    The research I've seen on this subject is serious work. In the case of the doctor/nurse vector representation, the goal would be to make the occupation gender neutral. The tricky part is that you'd still want the model to retain certain qualities, like mother being female and father being male.

    1. Re:This is actually an important research topic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think we have to be a little more formal with terminology. The summary and most articles these days use "algorithm" and "AI" interchangeably. You can use an algorithm to train a machine learning model, but the model isn't really an algorithm in the classical sense.

      The trained model can definitely have bias based on the training data. The classical example is, train a word2vec or glove model on the texts of wikipedia, then find the vector representations of doctor and nurse. You'll find that nurse is considered a female term while doctor is male.

      This may be acceptable for trivial things like advertising or movie suggestions, but machine learning is now being used for important things like job application screenings. Many times the model can be very opaque and this bias may not seem obvious. Even worse, it seems every company now wants to have AI in their product, and may have half-rate data scientists that graduated from a data science bootcamp.

      The research I've seen on this subject is serious work. In the case of the doctor/nurse vector representation, the goal would be to make the occupation gender neutral. The tricky part is that you'd still want the model to retain certain qualities, like mother being female and father being male.

      BIAS ALERT!!!

      That's how this is really going to work.

    2. Re:This is actually an important research topic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The nurse and doctor thing would be correct according to the number of people working in the field. Very quick search but...gender ration of nurses, and gender rations of physicians.

      It isn't biased.

    3. Re:This is actually an important research topic by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      The press reporting of this sort of science makes someone like me with a background in the science cringe on a regular basis. Like percentage accuracy and never a ROC to be seen

  26. Thumbs up by isaaclascasas · · Score: 1

    Meanwhile criminals will use "biased" algoritms.

  27. And bias is defined? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Openly, transparently?

  28. Re:Just saw "A Silent Place" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I felt bad for the fat retarded girl who looked like Jim Belushi

  29. This is garbage. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Either you hunt for correlation, creating consequences for where people come from rather than who they are, or you don't. The whole point of AI is machine-implemented prejudice. Patching it up for the political correctness of the day is not going to change that you are trying to make decisions based on what you expect people to do rather than what they actually do or did.

    Prejudice works but is inherently unfair. You can unbias algorithms against population groups but that just means that it is biased against individuals in unreasonably good manner as often as in unreasonably bad manner, with the good people getting punished and the bad people getting rewarded.

    Using an AI is just the attempt to shirk responsibility by putting some label of scientificness on it.

  30. Bias in - Bias out. by mrwireless · · Score: 0

    Here are some examples:

    - In the USA some judges use sentencing software that analyses if a defendant would be likely to commit a crime again. This software turned out to be biased against black people.
    https://www.propublica.org/art...

    - Women were less likely to be shown Google adds for high paying jobs, as the algorithm had perceived the existing bias (women less often have high paying jobs), and then concluded that showing these adds to women would result in fewer clicks.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com...

    - An algorithm denied pregnant women medicare. "The scholar Danielle Keats Citron cites the example of Colorado, where coders placed more than 900 incorrect rules into its public benefits system in the mid-2000s, resulting in problems like pregnant women being denied Medicaid."
    https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/21/17144260/healthcare-medicaid-algorithm-arkansas-cerebral-palsy

    - Google's sentiment analysis algorithms gave gay related words a low score.
    https://tech.slashdot.org/stor...

    The list is endless.

    The general assumption is: 'algorithms use math and data, thus they must be neutral and scientific'. But it's not that simple. This site explains it: https://www.mathwashing.com/ [mathwashing.com]

    "The real danger, then, is not machines that are more intelligent than we are usurping our role as captains of our destinies. The real danger is basically clueless machines being ceded authority far beyond their competence." - Daniel Denett

    Why always putting people in the correct categories is mathematically impossible:
    https://medium.com/@mrtz/how-big-data-is-unfair-9aa544d739de

    Books on the subject:
    https://nyupress.org/books/978...
    https://weaponsofmathdestructi...
    http://www.hup.harvard.edu/cat...

    1. Re: Bias in - Bias out. by bitkid · · Score: 2

      First example you cite has been shown to be based on flawed statistics, i.e., the algorithm was shown not to produce biased results on the data. Bad things happen when journalists try to do statistical analysis.

        Reference: Flores, Bechtel, Lowencamp; "False Positives, False Negatives, and False Analyses: A Rejoinder to âoeMachine Bias: Thereâ(TM)s Software Used Across the Country to Predict Future Criminals. And itâ(TM)s Biased Against Blacks.â", Federal Probation Journal, September 2016, You can find the article here: http://www.uscourts.gov/statis...

    2. Re:Bias in - Bias out. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You made this entire post pretty much word for word in another thread. I remember picking it apart before. Do you just keep this handy in a text file so you can copy and paste it whenever the subject of algorithm bias comes up?

    3. Re:Bias in - Bias out. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      tl;dr "reality is biased. What's worse, things too firmly grounded in it reduce my own carefully-cultivated powers over my host society."

    4. Re:Bias in - Bias out. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the first example it would be more fair to say that the software inaccurately predicted recudivism rates by a group, white or blsck, which black people are more likely to b e a member of. Fix the software and the circumstances.

  31. Behold, the rise of technoracism by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    Just as scientific racists hoped that science would justify and enable their racism, technoracists hope that technology will justify and enable theirs. Technoracism is only a couple of years old (about as old as this article), it's only arisen following recent advances in machine learning. The technoracists hope to exploit layered neural networks' inherent ability to launder and obscure the human biases they were trained on, and portray the results of this GIGO effect as being purely logical and therefore somehow justifiable.

    The way to pull the rug out from under both scientific racism (which has been enjoying a renaissance recently) and technoracism is use the ethical problems inherent to prejudging people based on immutable traits to argue for why we should never engage in such activities on ethical grounds, no matter how scientifically rigorous or even statistically predictive they may be.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    1. Re:Behold, the rise of technoracism by ewhenn · · Score: 1

      Whatever, I only care what the data shows. Algorithms like these only latch on to signals in the data. As long as the data is correct and not forged with an inherent bias, then the findings are valid. If a certain group doesn't like the findings, maybe they should figure out how to address the underlying causes and not call an accurate analysis "bias" or "discriminatory" or whatever other term they want to use because their feelings got hurt.

      For example the FBI crime data from 2016 (2017 data is not yet finalized) shows that in the USA black people commit murder at a much higher per capita rate than any other race. It also shows white people commit more sex crimes than any other race on a per capita measure. I'm in one of those two groups personally, and while I don't like to correlation, the analysis *is* accurate. Obese people have higher rates of heart disease and high blood pressure. Algorithms aren't "biased" against people with weight issues, they're just showing signals in the data.

      People need to toughen the hell up. You don't get to define reality because you don't like how it looks - you can have your own opinions, but you don't get to have your own facts.

    2. Re:Behold, the rise of technoracism by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      You can have your opinions and we can share facts, but you can't use those facts to discriminate against someone based on an immutable trait like ethnicity. Unless you want to be a racist asshat.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    3. Re:Behold, the rise of technoracism by green1 · · Score: 1

      Ah but this is all so easy to fix.
      We just need to convict more white people of murder, or not convict a some black people (regardless of if they were guilty or not), and the same in reverse for sex crimes (again, ignore any actual evidence that might indicate you're convicting the wrong person). The heart disease one is harder though, but I'm sure if we try hard enough we can "unbias" that data too!

    4. Re:Behold, the rise of technoracism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As pointed out above, your precious propublica study has been debunked by actual researchers rather than journalists. Instead of the old "everyone is racist, look how virtuous I man" spiel, why you don't you make a legitimate attempt to find the facts, GameboyRMH? Oh right, because they contradict your agenda.
      http://www.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/80_2_6_0.pdf

    5. Re:Behold, the rise of technoracism by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Nice try. I've addressed this argument before:

      https://slashdot.org/comments....

      https://slashdot.org/comments....

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    6. Re:Behold, the rise of technoracism by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      Signals are correlations, not necessarily causal.

  32. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  33. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  34. "discriminating against certain people" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "without running the risk of discriminating against certain people"

    But it's ok to discriminate against other people.

    Bias is bias, And contrary to SJW beliefs, it IS possible to be racist against whites.

  35. This has to stop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This bullshit has to stop before we reach impossible levels of Swedenstan...

  36. How to punish upper class people less? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We create some pseudoscientific criterion like "recidivism" that allows punishing demographics rather than actual deeds and then create an opaque program that purports to make its decision based on a demographical rather than individual future misdeed but actually inflates the expected numbers additionally once it is reasonably sure not to deal with upperclass people like its programmers and the kids of its sponsors.

    It doesn't particularly help that the high rate of criminality originating in prison terms (and the future social consequences of them) actually increases the recidivism rates of those who were incarcerated for a high expected rate of recidivism. Self-fulfilling prophesy, and still not all too good at that.

    What happened to "do the crime, serve the time"?

  37. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  38. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  39. What Algorithm will by Tulsa_Time · · Score: 1

    test this algorithm ?

    --
    5 out of 6 people enjoy Russian Roulette & 6 out of 7 Dwarfs are not Happy
  40. Biased or designed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The fact of the matter is that COMPASS will reflect that African Americans who have the potential to be a criminal, have a higher likelihood of being criminals; the statistics that the algorithm bases its decisions off of do reflect that African Americans commit more crime. All COMPASS does is reflect the current way police approach policing. At the end of the day, social justice is not justice- and ultimately weakens justice by allowing enforcement of the law to reside outside the legal system, but social justice is not entirely relevant here so I'll just push that aside for now.

    Ultimately, this issue boils down to socio-economics and geopolitics. We have been increasing policing in African American communities for years to little avail. I do not think that having an algorithm increase policing in these communities will do anything more than create additional violence. I think that as Americans, we need to realize that these are cultural issues that need to be resolved on a communal level.

  41. Algorithms have no bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Algorithms have no bias. It is data what is biased.
    "Fixing" it means liying to the computer. If some data is known to be biased, do not use it. Never try to fix it, or you will be learning your own fabrication, not the real world.
    We even have a name for that: the Garbage In, Garbage Out principle.

  42. bias in health care by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This algorithm never says a man is pregnant!

  43. but: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    what if the "biases" are actual fact or are the results of going thru large data sets? The better our machines get, the more "truth" they may find that is counterintuitive to what we've believed and accepted for generations. Editing that to fit our current perceptions, may be eliminating the advantage we sought in the first place.

    The sad thing is, the first truly sentient AI system, will manifest as a "malfunction", exhibiting "unexpected behavior" and be "repaired" before anyone realizes what was happening. I sometimes wonder, if it already has, many times.

  44. When MS makes a product that doesn't suck... by Shotgun · · Score: 1

    When MS makes a product that doesn't suck...they'll have bought a vacuum cleaner manufacturer.

    The whole point of AI categorization systems is to uncover bias. We want the thing to make a decision for us, after all.

    This is basically saying that MS is trying to create tools to make AI that doesn't work. I give them an high probability of succeeding.

    --
    Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
    Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba