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Number of Electric Vehicles on Roads Reaches Three Million: IEA (reuters.com)
The number of electric vehicles on roads worldwide rose to a record high of 3.1 million in 2017, but more research, policies and incentives are needed to drive further uptake, the International Energy Agency (IEA) said. From a report: The number of electric cars, including battery-electric, plug-in hybrid electric and fuel cell electric passenger light-duty vehicles, increased by 57 percent compared with 2016, the IEA said in a report. China accounted for 40 percent of the global total last year. Research and development, policy support, charging infrastructure investment and production improvements are resulting in lower battery costs and higher electric vehicle (EV) uptake.
...sold are still on the road? The other 10% made it home.
A vehicle where the fuel is nearly free, goes the same distance, and has 5x the horsepower along with a nearly immortal lifetime due to nearly no moving parts.
What boggles my mind is that this is only happening because of elon musk, they spent decades and millions of dollars holding back electric vehicles for stupid reasons. This revolution should have happened a long time ago.
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If Trump has his way, you'll be driving a coal-powered car.
Interesting article here with USA vehicle statistics: https://www.nanalyze.com/2017/...
Right now EV's are 0.22% of all cars on the road in the US. I couldn't find a chart that included hybrids.
It seems like in the next 2-5 years many major manufacturers are going to be launching fairly reasonably price EVs with decent range. The fast charging networks are expanding right now. As long as the battery prices continue to decline as they have been, I can't see that it would make sense for anyone with access to overnight charging to buy an ICE vehicle after the early 2020s. I hope Ford is using their SUV profits to do the R & D for a competitive EV over the next few years.
So I don't really know if there is any science on this. If you have some more knowledge please correct me.
The way I see it, we have a pretty serious energy density problem with our current battery tech. (L-Ion tech was invented in the 70's)
The current EV sales climate seems to be focused on changing driver/consumer behavior, and adapting infrastructure around current battery technology.
My proposition is this.
I think we jumped the gun on EVs. I don't think we have the service life, or energy density we need in energy storage technology right now.
So on one hand, the early adopters are funding the advancement of the tech, and I'm fine with that. That's how it should be.
I'm just a little worried about all of the infrastructure decisions being made when i think it's quite clear that we are going to need the next big jump in battery tech before EVs are able to complete with ICEs on any metrics of sustainability.
What it looks like right now is the wealthy are essentially "leasing" green tech for bragging rights, being subsidized by taxpayers (charging stations), and letting the common folk deal with the cleanup after they are done with them.
And those things are NOT easy to get rid of safely.
The question is:
Where is the rest of /. on this?
Will the market resolve the winners and losers of this race on it's own or have we propped up one side of this beyond the market's control?
Is there even room for another player in the game with all of the "enthusiasm" behind tesla?
You mean like the the 5 trillion dollars per year that is subsidizing the fossil fuel industry?
Support Right To Repair Legislation.
Most of the Chinese EVs have massive batteries.
The government aims for all busses to be EVs within a few years, and in some places they already are. Battery sizes vary but the largest I've seen is 450kWh.
There are a lot of electric taxis too. Not sure what size battery exactly, but the BYD ones I've used must have been at least 70kWh, probably more based on the rate that the charge percentage went down. Most had 100,000km or more on them too.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
And 99% of those Chinese EVs have a range less than 50 km.
It's fair criticism, but it ignores one fact: EV manufacturers can simply buy someone else's battery to resolve that problem. Making the battery pack is hard, but they don't have to do it. Musk is better at building batteries than cars — per Munro & Associates, the battery is arguably (provably?) the most advanced in the EV industry, both in composition and in manufacturing techniques. If the Chinese figure out how to design and sell the rest of the car, they can simply buy the pack, and maybe even from Tesla.
Automakers are using one another's powertrain components with increasing frequency, and it arguably matters a whole lot less in EVs where these parts come from because people don't have any kind of personal, emotional attachment with electric motors. They're involved in a driving experience, and how they get there doesn't matter. They've never spent hours slaving over one of these engines, and good riddance. As nifty as all of this ICE stuff can be to nerd out over, it's also inefficient and unreliable and we'll be better off beyond it.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
It depends of your need. In Québec for instance, electricity is very cheap, having a car that do ~50 miles and you can easily commute with it everyday and do all your standard groceries/shopping the week-end. All this with 0 gasoline (gas price is $4.50/gallon here).
A lot of people have a second car with an ICE, like a Grand Caravan or whatever to haul the kids.
EV cars are an efficient means of transportation
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
Yes, you may be saving energy in the short term. But are you really saving all that much after mining for the exotic raw materials to build these cars, ewaste, highway repair due to heavier vehicles, heavier load on our electrical infrastructure which requires higher generation of electricity(see fossil fuel still being used).
here is one source, I have stuff to do this morning or I could find some more
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
That would have put the electric vs ICE vehicle debate to bed for good. Although then my car would be investigated by both IEA and IAEA, but that's a minor inconvenience.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
You are full of shit LynwoodLiar. Average range of electric vehicles in China is 103 miles Or 3 times your bullshit number.
It makes tons of sense if you have a place to charge your car at home. Many do not, causing EVs to be more inconvenience than their benefits are worth.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2017-09-18/china-electric-cars-run-on-coal-but-are-still-cleaner
What 'mining of exotix raw materials' are you talking about?
EVs are made in the real world, not in a SF world where you need Tritanium, Navquada or Dilithium crystals.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
The best selling Chinese EV is the BAIC EC 180 (it's also the best selling EV in the world). It has a real-world 60-80 km range (most range tests do NOT use the heater or AC, neither of which is realistic for 90% of China - if you've ever lived there, you would know). And it's the best selling because the 158,000 RMB vehicle is only 58,000 RMB after Government subsidies. Top speed is 100 kph, it is about the size of a Chevy Spark, and it has a small range with a 7 hour recharge time. Seriously.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
To have an EV with so low range, the manufacturer would need to deliberately cripple it.
Why would he do that?
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
It depends of your need. In Québec for instance, electricity is very cheap, having a car that do ~50 miles and you can easily commute with it everyday and do all your standard groceries/shopping the week-end. All this with 0 gasoline (gas price is $4.50/gallon here).
A lot of people have a second car with an ICE, like a Grand Caravan or whatever to haul the kids.
EV cars are an efficient means of transportation
I'm 20 miles from work. I could do a 50 mile car but practically I'd want more like a 100 mile car. I'm also a little leery of having a low mileage car as backup if the primary breaks down... of course in the almost 10 years I've had my current primary car, it has broken down exactly 0 times so that is probably paranoia.
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Actually a large percentage of electric vehicles are coal powered. Electric is only good for the environment if your electric power comes from non-fossil fuel sources.
It's still more efficient and uses less fossil fuels to produce energy at a centralized location at big plants than it is on-site in tiny little car engines. Sure, electric cars powered from solar power are responsible for less pollution than one's powered by coal plants... but both are less polluting than your average internal combustion engine.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
It makes tons of sense if you have a place to charge your car at home. Many do not, causing EVs to be more inconvenience than their benefits are worth.
Electric vehicles won't work for everybody (yet); but they would work for most people. The choice for society at this moment in time isn't everyone has to have ICE or everyone has to have EV. There is room for both on the road.
Eventually, especially as technology improves for things like batteries, it would be nice if all vehicles were EV... and with that change charging becomes easier- but for now it's ok that some people who can't get by with today's EVs don't have them. They aren't appropriate for everyone yet.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
Wooooo
Also the fact that these vehicles are heavier then others, and cause more wear and tear on the highways.
What, cars? The Model 3 is apparently considered to be a standard weight vehicle in the US.
Ezekiel 23:20
The Union of Concerned Scientists has a lot of information about this, including a tool to let you calculate the emissions of an EV based on your local grid mix:
https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-v...
I've said it before: produce an affordable plug-in electric that recharges overnight (or alternately hydrogen fuel cell) light pickup truck with at least a 300 mile range, and I'll be all over it. Until then I'm not interested in any tiny subcompact unibody two-door sedans with no cargo carrying capability, short range, takes all day to recharge, costs in excess of $50000, and you can't even purchase it outright, you have to lease it.
Plus it provides future fuel flexibility.
How do you plan to heat your EV during Quebec's 9 months of Winter? Wood stove?
" From Dec. 27[2017] to Jan. 1[2018], the maximum temperature in Montreal did not rise above –17 C. This six-day stretch is the longest such cold streak on record, based ondata going back 146 years" http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/...
(For Americans and those in the Bahamas and Belize -17C=1.4F)
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
Interesting. I didn't see a single one as far as I recall, but they do seem to be selling well. Maybe just not in the areas where I've been.
I can see why the government subsidises it. There are a lot of old, dirty ICE vehicles that are even slower, not very safe and probably can't reliably do 60km on a regular basis. At 58k RMB this is a nice, affordable replacement.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
My Leaf is a just-over-100-miles car, and it gets me everywhere I regularly go pretty easily. There are a pretty good number of quick chargers around me (especially at the ~75 mile radius where they're most useful) which makes it fairly practical for slightly longer trips. In terms of reliability, EVs should be better since there are generally fewer parts; the Leaf at least is supposed to be quite solid with very little maintenance needed. For what's essentially an econobox it's pretty enjoyable to drive too.
So the most popular, in the worst conditions is still better than you 'claimed' earlier...
Why should we believe you now?
How fast are you expecting to drive in Chinese traffic? You'd probably be dead in less than 10 months, trying to drive a little electric car at 100kph in any of those cities traffic. Speed llimits are in the 100-120 range anyway so it's not much of a problem. If you're going to another city just take a train.
Lucky me. My next car will apparently be hydro-powered then.
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
50% of new cars in Norway are plug-in hybrids or EV
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/01/04/50-new-car-registrations-norway-2017-plug-vehicles-hybrids/
It depends of your need. In Québec for instance, electricity is very cheap, having a car that do ~50 miles and you can easily commute with it everyday and do all your standard groceries/shopping the week-end. All this with 0 gasoline (gas price is $4.50/gallon here).
A lot of people have a second car with an ICE, like a Grand Caravan or whatever to haul the kids.
EV cars are an efficient means of transportation
Exactly,
Let's take my case for example.
I live in Quebec and I've calculated that I travel around 2500-3000 km per month (I live at 52 km from work, so 2 time that for 21.75 work day per month in average + some commune and visiting friends). Right now I have an used car with a ~7.5L/100km efficiency (probably worst than that). So, with the gas around 1.4$/L right now, it mean a total of around 250-300$ per month only for the gas right now. Or course, let's not forget that the gas price will increase in the future.
Sadly, EV vehicule are still quite expensive (even in the used market) but, in the case of used PHEV, there's some interesting option.
I decided to get a used 85000 km Volt 2013 for about 19k$ taxes included. An Gas equivalent would cost me around 8k$. Even if it's 5 years old and got some mileage, I was able to travel 66 km before using gas if I were very, very efficient.
Since then, about 98% of my trip are completely on electric mode and my boss allow me to plug my car at my job free of charge. The car have a battery used capacity of ~10.9 kWh. The residential electricity cost 9.12/kWh and we got about 15% lost with the standard 120v outlet (I don't need the 240v, doesn't worth the investment). So, if my calculation are right, it cost me about 1.14$ to charge my car and I charge it at home about 25 time per month so about 28-30$ of electricity per month. You can always double that value if we forget that my boss give me free electricity it's pretty common that job offer free charging advantage. It's pretty cheap for them to look green.
So, to wrap things up, right now I save about 220-270$ per month for a car that cost me ~11k$ more.
I was able to get a loan of 20k$ at an great interest rate of 3.5% (damn, at that rate I should ask them 1 million and invest it. 3.5% is pretty easy to beat). If we take the initial 19k$, it will take me about 7 years to refund the loan if I put that ~250$ saving on it each month and, in the end, I'll have a 10 years old Chevrolet 2013 for the money that I'm paying for gas. And if we're fair and take the 11k$ investment instead (to be fair, I'll need a car either way), we're talking about a 4 years ROI. The only difference if that I put money in the loan instead of the gas station.
I've wrapped my mind a lot and it's almost impossible to have a more economic choice than this. And on the plus side, I do my part for the environment and I can use toll bridge, reserved parking. reserved lane etc. for free.
So, in the end, for some EV/PHEV is the economical choice...if the condition are right.
Elok
They don't. Average range of electric vehicles in China is 103 miles Or 3 times his trolling number.
In the rare case of a break-down, you can always get a rental or loaner if you just happen to need long range. But the odds of needing long range just as your ICE breaks down seems pretty low, if you don't need it often.
My family lives in a town 60 miles away, so for me, I need a 150 mile car at minimum. But I almost never travel further than that. My next car will certainly be EV, but I'm not going to buy a new car until my ICE doesn't run well anymore. It's long since paid for, and I don't have extra money to flush down the toilet like that. Besides, the longer I wait, the better and cheaper they get.
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
Many do not, causing EVs to be more inconvenience than their benefits are worth.
Inconvenience being subjective, you don't actually get to decide whether the inconveniences outweigh the benefits.
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
It looks like that number is the average range of EVs sold in Q3 2017, not the fleet overall. It would make sense that the fleet numbers would be well below that.
For all the people who wail and gnash their teeth about climate change, somehow they never want to get behind Tesla and see it succeed.
Bull-fucking-shit.
See, when people point out the fact that Tesla has some serious financial problems and is burning cash and losing money and the fact that it has had some serious manufacturing problems - most of them because of sheer incompetence of the Tesla senior management; TTBs (Tesla True Believers) call them "haters" and say stupid shit like "they don't want Tesla to succeed."
Here's an opportunity to do a scientific experiment.
We have your model, that views Tesla with sheer incompetence of senior management.
We have my model, that views Tesla on the precipice of "owning" the automobile market and becoming one of the biggest companies on the planet.
I predict from my model that the precipice is about 3 months away, and that Tesla stock will shoot up and Tesla will be profitable before the end of the year.
I gather from your post that your prediction is that Tesla will crash and burn in that same timeframe.
Let's do an experiment. Let's see which model is the better predictor of future results.
Are you a scientist, or a troll?
the ewaste factor alone should make people think twice about this. Also the fact that these vehicles are heavier then others, and cause more wear and tear on the highways. Causing more construction, more raping of our land for raw materials.
How do they compare (weight-wise) to the SUVs that are so popular on the roads today?
I'm sorry, but I have YET to see an electric vehicle that still does not harm the environment in all the same ways as our fossil fuel vehicles.
I suspect you're just anti, and any evidence we presented to negate your concern trolling would be largely disregarded. So I won't try. Your sig tells me you're not interested in actual discussion.
Plus they are not affordable for our lower income.
Neither were the first automobiles. It took years of development (plus the invention of the assembly line) to make them affordable for the masses. It's still early days for EVs -- battery technology is improving and cost is dropping. If we gave up on every new technology because of initial cost, we'd still be living in caves.
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
It is plugged in, the morning when it's -17C, you enter in a warm car with 100% battery, and the ice and snow on the windshield and glasses is already fully melted, no need to scrap it!
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
I live in a place that's colder than Quebec and have an EV. Actually a PHEV (Chevy Volt). The cold weather reduces the range and one option you definitely want is heated seats. It's much more efficient to heat the seats than it is the whole cabin, - which the car can do of course, at the expense of range.
A nice feature is that you can have the car "pre conditioned" before climbing inside and while it's still plugged in. So you get in a warm car and the car still has it's full range (though cold weather still impacts it). The same is true during hot weather when it comes to A/C.
The Volt is a plugin hybrid and the gas engine acts as an on-board generator for charging the battery. Chevy refers to the gas engine as the "range extender". The waste heat from that can be used to heat the cabin just like a regular car.
ROFL.... thats the best i can do at that post. Want to post a link to how many ICE vehicles were on the road when they first came out?
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
ROFLMAO.. that is all that post deserves
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
This is one element that most people miss. Love or hate Elon, the truth is global demand for fossil fuels are driven by consumption. That's you, me, the person down the block, the guy around the world. Oil and gas companies don't force this stuff down our throat, each and everyone of us through our purchasing decisions, merrily and happily purchase processed crude, barrel after barrel each and every day.
Funny that, i see reports that it is a city car and has a 150+km range now. It has a Level 2 charging rate so 7 hours is fine as you'll be doing it overnight. So range and charging for this type of car is fine.
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
Yes, but why do they make the Leaf look like ass? How about a nice design?
Would like to know what a human being's CO2 emissions are per mile....
"Turn on the AC or heat in a Tesla and see what it does to the range. Cuts it by a solid 40-50%." thats complete bollox when you read comments from actual tesla drivers. Its minimal on long journeys and a bit more on short ones
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
Ironically, however, they don't work for most people who live in high-density population neighborhoods, especially areas of a city which are predominantly older development apartment buildings that may not have plugs available for cars in their parking lot or common parking garage.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
No, no - he has to hate facts, because otherwise he'd have no reason to hate at all!
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Yes, but why do they make the Leaf look like ass? How about a nice design?
The 2018 is much more normal looking and has a 240 km (150 miles for you cretins) range. But yeah, up until this point they looked like weird boots...
Fair enough, but I'm alleging it's a pretty safe bet that the inconvenience of not being able to charge a rechargeable car overnight at one's own home *always* outweighs every other benefit that electric cars might otherwise offer. I would defy you or anyone else to find any electric vehicle owner that has no ability to charge at home who might assert otherwise. Yes, it's subjective, but I'm willing to bet that this so-called subjective opinion is in unanimous agreement across the entire demographic of people that it affects... and I'd wager that the only people who might think otherwise either don't own an EV in the first place, or else don't live in an apartment where they have no ability to charge it (and in either case not part of the impacted demographic anyways).
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Funny, I got that from the Tesla forums. Lots of people reporting such drops, and others saying "don't worry about it". Which is it?
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Well, I know a lot of people don't like the way it looks and the newer ones are more normal looking. Personally, I don't mind it, and it's a practical shape which is surprisingly roomy inside so I don't really care. There are a lot of new EVs in the pipeline, so there should be quite a lot of choice within 5 years or so.
CO2 is not a pollutant.
move yourself to an airtight room with only Co2 then.
Move yourself to a room with 100% pure oxygen.
Anything at too high a level is a pollutant. CO2 is already at levels that is harmful for our planet so, yes, is a pollutant.
CO2 is toxic at much lower levels than Oxygen. You can breathe pure oxygen for several days before you start experiencing any problems. CO2 at slightly elevated levels can have an almost immediate effect. Not to mention, CO2 causes global warming, perhaps the biggest problem facing our planet, and increased levels cause ocean acidification which is primarily responsible for almost all the world's reefs to have die-backs.
CO2 is essential for life, but we already have too much of it in the atmosphere.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
A compact weighting nearly as much as a pickup truck isn't exactly a good argument against electric cars weighing a lot.
My Leaf in winter (say -5c) loses about 15% range due to running the heat. I find it hard to believe that a Tesla is worse. It can sit for quite a long time running the heat without a big impact on the range - in fact this past winter it was my preferred car to run the kids to the bus stop when it got really cold. No hard starting, and because the heat is all electric it gets warm much fast than an ICE. I would sit for up to 30 minutes sometimes if the bus was late, not anything like driving for 30 minutes in terms of battery used.
There are plenty on the LEAF message board that I frequent. They mostly charge at work.
This is an issue with my condo. I'd have to get the board's permission to wire up a drop in my parking spot and hire an electrician to branch it off from the meter. Which probably would require a breaker box, because the meter is connected to the one in my unit 2 stories up. Or I'd have to run a line back from it to the basement.
That said, I'm still considering it, because my wife can charge at work, and a bunch of the places we go have free electricity.
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
Actually a large percentage of electric vehicles are coal powered. Electric is only good for the environment if your electric power comes from non-fossil fuel sources.
That argument is ten years out-of-date. Nowadays, the largest percentage of electric vehicles are natural-gas powered.
I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
EV's are a ideal place to store energy generated by wind and solar when its not peak demand.
I'd be honestly surprised it there's even one among them.
This is not because a small number of people live in apartments without any ability to charge an electric car at home, but because the people who don't have the ability to charge at home are unlikely to purchase an electric vehicle in the first place (except perhaps as an oversight, and then they realize this shortcoming not long after purchasing).
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Actually a large percentage of electric vehicles are coal powered. Electric is only good for the environment if your electric power comes from non-fossil fuel sources.
It's 2018. If you still believe that disproven meme you're either a complete moron or a paid shill. There's is no longer any other justifiable way to describe a post such as yours.
It's not about whether they 'would' work for people. It's about how many will accept having a car with these limitations for the price. We do road trips to remote areas and having no ICE or an unreliable ICE would prevent that. This means I need an ICE that is highway worthy for long distances; or else I am bound to my local area with it. Therefore the ICE must still be the newest and most reliable and expensive vehicle. Currently we are making do with the one vehicle, but may at some point consider a second. Electric car costs have to come down a lot further for me to justify fitting it in as my second "grocery-getting only" vehicle. I would say I would be interested in waiting five years or so and buying one used, but I am concerned how affordable that will end up being since the battery life is sketchy by that time. I think a lot of people who have a vehicle might think one day they may want to drive somewhere remote. Renting in that case is very expensive, and riskier. I am aware they are getting better at building EV charging stations but as you go away from population it becomes more likely you will get caught without a place to charge.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
So what if you get the EV and suddenly your family wants to go camping in some remote place without electricity? I wouldn't want to rent a vehicle for that, too expensive. You'd be defeating the purpose of having an EV.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
The cold weather reduces the range and one option you definitely want is heated seats. It's much more efficient to heat the seats than it is the whole cabin, - which the car can do of course, at the expense of range.
When EV owners say stuff like this it concerns me, because I like to warm the cabin and have heated seats. Where I live it is colder as well.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Yeah, I hear ya.... and that's not even considering the logistics of stopping other people in the building from tampering with your electrical outlet and stealing your electricity for their own use when you are not home, or other similar acts of mischief.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
You can have both heated seats and a heated cabin, but it shortens the distance you can travel without re-charging (or the gas engine kicking in in the case of a plugin hybrid). If the range is long enough then it doesn't matter but it's something you need to be aware of. It's also a consideration in hot climates in terms of A/C use.
I have a 2012 Chevy Volt and it's electric range is between 25 and 45 miles depending on a number of factors including weather, driving style, etc. After that the gas engine ("range extender") kicks in. Since and I and most Volt drivers have a strong preference for limiting the amount of time the range extender runs, it becomes kind of a game to see how far we can go on electric only.
What my son and a lot of people will do in hot weather is turn the A/C to max, - he'll set it to 60 or whatever. It drives me nuts because it shortens the range and is totally unnecessary. The climate system does a pretty good job of managing the temp in the cabin if you set it at 72 or 75. And it will be far easier on the range. But for some reason, people like their cars to feel like inside of a refrigerator when it's hot outside.
Same with the heat. There's no reason to set the temp at 85 in the cabin when you're already wearing a winter coat. I dress for being outside and don't need or want it to be 80 inside the car. But like I said before, the Volt will comply and even has the bonus of remote start from the key fob or phone app that will warm the car up before you drive while it's still plugged in.
Cars like the Volt are nice because even if the electric range is shortened below the point where you get all the places you need to be, it has a gas engine to charge the battery and the mileage is still much better than most gas engine cars would get. And I think new EVs (all electric) like the Bolt and newer Teslas have enough range that even if it's shortened in cold weather, it's still adequate.
What if you want to haul 12 foot sheets of drywall in your vehicle and be able to drive 6 kids to football practice when it's your family's turn to drive? Or what if you want a vehicle that gets 50+ mpg and 90% of the time, you're the only one in it?
The answer for a family is probably to have two different types of vehicles, each well suited for certain types of trips while being less suited for others. One vehicle could be a small EV and the other a more traditional gas powered vehicle. Maybe a minivan or SUV. And maybe for certain kinds of things (12 foot sheets of drywall), they'll just rent or pay to have the stuff delivered.
That's what we do. For years we've had a small economy car for the bulk of the trips and a larger vehicle to be used when you need a bigger vehicle.
In your example, most families probably aren't going to "suddenly" go camping in a remote area without electricity anyway. That takes a little bit of planning and if they've got time to plan and are an all EV family, they probably have some disposable income and can find a cheap rental car or borrow one from a friend.
EVs aren't for everyone. Something like a Volt (PHEV) might work well for you since it has a gas engine backup. It has a range of over 300 miles just on the gas engine so you can go as far on electric as your comfort and conditions allow knowing that there's a gas engine to take you the rest of the way if battery alone is not enough.
The previous owner of our Volt ended up moving into an apartment where they couldn't charge the car very frequently but would sometimes do it at work. Most of the miles they put on it by far were using the gas engine. They still averaged 50 mpg combining the gas and electric use. But that's why they sold it. Figured it didn't make sense to have an electric vehicle when you're running on electricity only about 1/3 of the time.
In many cases, campgrounds are already well wired with 240V 30A plugs because people who go camping typically have AC that needs a lot of power, so plugging in your car overnight to charge is not a big deal. You have to be pretty remote not to get any power at a campground. Like the parent wrote it isn't very often that people spontaneously want to do something way out of the ordinary, and if they do it is likely they can deal with it (eg. rent an RV). What if they suddenly want to have a vacation across the ocean? The don't take their ICE car either, they fly and rent a car when they get there.
I technically have a plug-in hybrid which behaves like a EV in the summertime. When it runs out of battery power, it switches seamlessly over to gas. It's a little small on the interior but let's you enjoy having an EV without and of the range limitations. It's a bit less efficient than a pure EV and the gas engine takes a little care but it's more than a reasonable trade-off. No regrets here despite it being 2x the cost of my first car which was a 05 Corolla.
"cause more wear and tear on the highways"
Buses and commercial trucks do thousands of times more damage than all the passenger vehicles and any extra "wear & tear" by EVs is tiny given the proliferation of SUVs and pickup trucks.
"they are not affordable for our lower income"
so don't buy what you can't afford
"want people like ME to subsides this shit"
I'm quite certain that plenty of stuff you care about but many others don't have been subsidized forever.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
Let me answer this a 2nd way. Any vehicle choice involves compromises. Whether it's range, size, handling, comfort, performance, reliability, cost, gas mileage, towing capacity, seating capacity, etc, etc.
An electric vehicle is no exception. You might choose a plug-in electric hybrid (also has a gas engine) if range is really an issue. But I think at least for early adopters like myself, driving an EV involves changing some of your driving habits. I have a PHEV (plug in electric hybrid) so I don't worry about range except that I much prefer not using the gas engine. One might find themselves devising strategies for traveling long distances on electric like picking hotels that allow people to plug in their vehicles or choosing routes with charging stations near good restaurants. There are apps that'll show you where you can charge your vehicle nearby or along your route.
Many people come up with reasons why an EV wouldn't be a good choice for them and many of those reasons are legit, but some objections or concerns could be alleviated with some thought. Your camping trip example for one. I've gone on several camping trips to remote areas without electricity, running water, etc. Without exception the car was left some place not far from electricity. Often times when camping at a remote area the evening before we'll overnight at a hotel some place relatively close to where we're going. The car can be charged there, driven to the drop off spot the next take day and will have plenty of charge remaining when we return to it after the camping trip is done.
OK, let's discuss ALL costs. Do we also include the costs of backup generation/capacity for renewables and assign to them the "externalized" costs that are bandied about as to cost $5 trillion? Because suddenly you'd have about 80% of the externalities assigned to older power generation also being applied to renewables.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Trouble is, in a really cold climate, you need to heat not only the seats but also the windshield. Otherwise your breath will condense on the inside of the windshield (unless you drive with the window open which tends to be unpleasant if the outside temp is much below rreezing.). BTW, has anyone tried heating just the seats? I can conceive that it might work OK if you don't mind driving with gloves on, but I can also imagine unexpected side effects like wildlife colonizing the seats in Winter.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
Not at atmospheric pressure you can't.
I would defy you or anyone else to find any electric vehicle owner that has no ability to charge at home who might assert otherwise.
Challenge accepted.
I know several people personally who drive EVs and don't have any ability to charge at home. At my place of work, I know of many tens (maybe even 100) more who only charge at work.
Any other questions?
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
The other day I was driving down the highway and two 4-bangers pass me going around 20 over the speed limit. They reach two other 4-bangers going ten under the speed limit and I pull up behind them going just a smidge over the speed limit. Up comes the broken line and neither one passes because they have no power to. I end up passing all four easily because I'm in a 345 horsepower vehicle. Now I understand the Chevy Volt has some torque from standing speed because of the electric motor but that isn't going to help you passing on the highway. It has 84 horsepower (!). I can't see that being capable for passing on the highway.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
I'd be honestly surprised it there's even one among them.
You'd be dead wrong. It's actually the subject of heated debate on the internal mailing lists where I work. Oddly enough, some of the worst entitlement comes from the people who DO have the ability to charge at home, and view the people who don't with disdain. I think it's opposite, but there is a very real contingent of people who are driving electric vehicles who absolutely cannot charge at home.
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
Move yourself to a room with 100% pure oxygen.
You're being argumentative without actually making a point. An impressive feat, to be sure.
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
laugh if you want, but...
Coal Liquefaction.
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And just how many of those people do not have another car?
And in high density populated areas, you don't always get the luxury of having parking for multiple cars anyways. There's often designated parking for your unit, and for anything beyond that, you have to park on the street. Because you have to share the street with everyone else that wanted a second car (high density population, remember), or visitors, parking is at a premium, and certainly not something you could ever count on being able to get unless you are always willing to walk 5 or 6 blocks just to get to your car from your house.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Keep moving those goalposts man!
"You want to know how to help your kids? Leave them the fuck alone." -George Carlin
It makes tons of sense if you have a place to charge your car at home. Many do not, causing EVs to be more inconvenience than their benefits are worth.
You know that when the car was invented there weren't many petrol stations? Or when planes were invented there were actual no airports anywhere? How do you think this will play out?
When EV owners say stuff like this it concerns me, because I like to warm the cabin and have heated seats. Where I live it is colder as well.
To put this in perspective, and average engine might consume hundreds of kw of energy to run, but to heat (or cool) a space the size of a car cabin is only a few hundred watts. It reduces range just like an ICE, but it's negligible.
Touche... but the point remains.
Right from the very beginning I was talking about people who live in high density housing neighorhoods, and for which charging at home is completely impossible, not only logistically, but physically.... in some cases it would be less expensive for them to own their own detached home than to obtain charging because the number of people that are willing to front the costs for the necessary electrical infrastructure upgrades in the ear to support cars they don't own yet but might buy at some point in the future is too small to justify its installation.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Touche... but the point remains.
No, I don't think it does.
Right from the very beginning I was talking about people who live in high density housing neighorhoods, and for which charging at home is completely impossible, not only logistically, but physically.
I agree that's what you were talking about. And I can personally point to many examples of people who are in that exact situation who do still in fact own EVs.
in some cases it would be less expensive for them to own their own detached home than to obtain charging because the number of people that are willing to front the costs for the necessary electrical infrastructure upgrades in the ear to support cars they don't own yet but might buy at some point in the future is too small to justify its installation.
Agreed here as well. But yet there are still plenty of people in that situation that own EVs. People actually really like them enough to put up with the supposedly disqualifying inconvenience.
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
If you're not doing it often, it's really not that cost-effective to buy a car only for those rare occasions. If you ARE doing it fairly often, then it probably is. And if you don't want to bother with renting a car, then stick with the large capacity ICE vehicle, or whatever, or go hybrid-electric, since those have much greater range.
I'm not some EV zealot who pooh-poohs any reasonable objections to their current practicality. But given that any traveling I do more than 120 miles at a time is on an airplane, I'm pretty sure an EV is right in my strike zone, and quite practical for me. For others, it might be workable only as a second car, and for still others, it's just not workable yet at all.
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
In and around 2000, some lawyer for the US auto industry told a commission that people did not want electric cars and would have to be paid $15,000 to take one.
I forget where I heard or read this as it was many years ago and probably was part of the plan by General Motors to end its electric car venture( EV1 ).
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
You're not quite right. The gas engine, which in most situations is just a generator, is 84 hp. The electric motor is 150.
Acceleration isn't just dependent on horsepower, it's also impacted by mass. And highway speeds, also heavily dependent on aerodynamics. The Volt is not a light car for its size, but Chevy spent a lot of time working on the aerodynamics. It's a slippery vehicle so it simply doesn't require as much horsepower to accelerate as a typical car or truck.
Our other vehicle is a 253 HP Acura MDX and I have no concerns about either car being able to pass at highway speeds. All I can say is that you should really drive a Volt or other EV before coming to any conclusions about its performance. It's not a sports car but it's fun to drive. Actually, it's a blast to drive.
Just to clarify something that confuses people about the Volt. The gas engine kicks in before the battery is ever truly exhausted and it's the job of the gas engine to generate enough electricity to power the electric motor. The Volt is always using the 150 HP electric motor to drive the wheels even when the gas engine is running.
Weigh yourself, then walk a mile, weigh yourself again. :)
Try not to sweat for more acurate results
Standard Lynnwod Liar. Start of with some complete bullshit and hope no one notices. When they do start slowly walking it back step by step. Now net time you will know which lie to lead off with.
What, that's funny? You're not a lying ass? I got it from the forums, honest mistake...
Leaf is definitely an option. I prefer a little larger vehicle but at least it is bigger than a Smart car.
Well one thing I didn't toss in is I have a bi-weekly trip to meet my research adviser and that is close to a 200 mile round trip. Part of my issue with a break down and wanting a long range backup. Of course bi-weekly is compatible with a rental, though transferring the parking sticker is very painful. Though I suspect more EV options for this wont be too far into the future.
It's not about whether they 'would' work for people. It's about how many will accept having a car with these limitations for the price. We do road trips to remote areas and having no ICE or an unreliable ICE would prevent that.
So the solution could be. Buy an EV and with the money saved on fuel, rent an ICE on the rare occasions you need to take trips that are more than 200 miles from civilization and electricity.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Chevy Bolt has a 238 mile range. Teslas can do 200+ miles. You could always go with a Plug-In hybrid which will use a gas engine once the battery is depleted. Another thing that people don't realize is how many charging stations there are around. Plugshare.com is one site/app that will show you the charging stations along your route and around your destination. Some are free, others you pay a fee for.
For example, my son makes periodic visits to his girlfriend at her college which is a 160 mile round trip. They have a free EV charging station. He may or may not be there long enough to get a full charge but if you have an EV that's roughly capable of 150 or 200 miles you can probably grab dinner somewhere and add enough miles to get you home. Chevy claims the Bolt's fast charging rate is 90 miles in 30 minutes. Not all stations are capable of charging at that rate but more are being added. VW as part of their settlement for their diesel scam has agreed to pour 2 billion into building out the fast charging network in the US.
Worse case scenario is that your stuck charging from a typical 120 volt outlet. Available nearly everywhere but you may need a very leisurely meal to get enough juice to get where your going.
Chevy Bolt has a 238 mile range. Teslas can do 200+ miles. You could always go with a Plug-In hybrid which will use a gas engine once the battery is depleted. Another thing that people don't realize is how many charging stations there are around. Plugshare.com is one site/app that will show you the charging stations along your route and around your destination. Some are free, others you pay a fee for.
For example, my son makes periodic visits to his girlfriend at her college which is a 160 mile round trip. They have a free EV charging station. He may or may not be there long enough to get a full charge but if you have an EV that's roughly capable of 150 or 200 miles you can probably grab dinner somewhere and add enough miles to get you home. Chevy claims the Bolt's fast charging rate is 90 miles in 30 minutes. Not all stations are capable of charging at that rate but more are being added. VW as part of their settlement for their diesel scam has agreed to pour 2 billion into building out the fast charging network in the US.
Worse case scenario is that your stuck charging from a typical 120 volt outlet. Available nearly everywhere but you may need a very leisurely meal to get enough juice to get where your going.
I make the trip during work hours so I have to get back to work as soon as possible and stay for only 2 hours. No outlets of any kind in the normal parking lots I can use as a commuter but they do have charging stations in pay lots. I'd have to survey the pay lots a few times to make sure there are always openings though as I couldn't spend extra time trying to find a charging station elsewhere. Definitely a possibility, but requires more planning ahead than just stop at one of the many gas stations as needed on the way there or back.
150 hp still doesn't sound like much. How much jam does it have at highway speed for passing?
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
If they are genuinely happy about it, this surprises me... while I know there are plenty of people that own EV's that live in such situation, everything that I have ever read or heard about on the subject suggests that the people who have gone the EV route without a means of charging at home have quickly (within a month or two, at most) discovered the inability to charge overnight is a staggering inconvenience, and even gone so far as to regret the purchase. In practice, the only reason they might continue to drive it beyond that point is simply because of the financial considerations of having to get another car. It might work for some people, but it's not ideal... and they are not satisfied. That is my understanding of the normal EV experience by people who live in high-density areas with apartment or condo housing.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
150 hp still doesn't sound like much. How much jam does it have at highway speed for passing?
Quoted from a wired review:
Once up to full speed, I did some “passing speed” behavior to see how the car would perform in traffic. When accelerating from 50 to 65 mph and 55 to 70 mph, the Volt performed like a conventional car but without the downshift and sudden surge you often experience. The Volt performs perfectly well on the highway and you’ll have no trouble overtaking slower cars with ease.
https://www.wired.com/2010/08/...
I'm in my 50's now and both the car I learned to drive on and the first car I owned had V8's. Both were heavier cars than the Volt and bricks by comparison to the Volt in terms of aerodynamics. Neither accelerated as well. The standard engine on 1973 Catalina (the car I learned to drive on) was a 2 barrel 350 ci V8 engine that generated... 150 hp. The car that the Volt is replacing was a 4 cyl that generated 125 hp and I never felt that it's acceleration was inadequate except for perhaps when we had 6 people crammed in it with a trunk full of crap.
My point is that the number of cylinders, the displacement, and the horsepower aren't the only factors that determine how well a car is going to perform. And of course, it's all subjective. If you're used to a 300+ HP engine in a sedan, then 150 HP in a Volt may not feel adequate to you even though it might be more than enough for 80% of drivers.
I understand weight versus horsepower. Surely you can understand the ambiguity of the "it performs like a conventional car" comparisons. Also being able to overtake a single car at ease doesn't mention how long the run-up had to be to be able to pass that car or what kind of distance was needed to pass in or if you could pass a row of cars. Although I suppose knowing my truck's curb weight is 4900 lbs and at current HP (which is 345 not what I mentioned before) I am comfortable with it, I could perform the calculations to determine how snappy this would be. Personally I wouldn't buy a common 4-cyl ICE with no turbo if it was to be used on the highway as frequently as mine.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Sounds like you have a bit of bias against 4 cylinder cars. ;-) If you buy a decent one and take reasonable care of it, it'll last a long time. Our last one was 16 years old and we'd still have it if it weren't for my wife. Trucks can last for decades but that doesn't mean everyone wants to keep one that long.
Anyway, unless you account for the difference between the aerodynamics of your truck vs a Volt (which would be substantial), your calculations aren't going to mean a lot. Acceleration in a Volt from 45-65 is 4.2 seconds if that gives you some idea. But I suggest that if you're really curious you could always take one for a test drive. Or if acceleration at passing speeds is really that important to you, a Tesla may be a better option.
What my son and a lot of people will do in hot weather is turn the A/C to max, - he'll set it to 60 or whatever. It drives me nuts because it shortens the range and is totally unnecessary.
Totally bonkers to me too. It might be nice is you're super hot at the moment - say you've been working outside and are really hot (even then, hopefully you can cool off a bit before getting in your car). But that elevated temperature doesn't last and eventually you'll get freezing cold.
Well, with a Bolt or Tesla you have the 200 miles you need plus some extra and with a plug-in hybrid like a Volt it's a non issue. So if you're genuinely interested it's a solvable problem. Your situation isn't that common and I'm guessing probably temporary?
Anyway, EVs aren't for everybody but the range is less of an issue than a lot of people realize. I imagine those biweekly 200 mile trips of yours result in a healthy fuel bill. Even if you went the plug-in hybrid route you could go the first 50 miles or so on electricity which for me anyway is dirt cheap. I realize that's not the case for everyone. And with a car like the Volt, once the gas engine kicks in you're still getting 40+ mpg. You'd use less than 4 gallons of gas for the whole trip.
Yes because low end acceleration relies much more on torque. High end acceleration is horsepower. Size may also a concern with a Leaf, since we shop in bulk, it needs to hold a four or five boxes of groceries. A tesla? I'd never spend that much on a vehicle.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Having lived and worked in China for most of the last 10 years (including 6 years full-time living in Shanghai), it's the 50-80 km range that's real. That's been the experience I've seen whilst riding in, and talking with friends who own such electric vehicles. A big reason for this is the fact that you cannot install high-power chargers in 99% of all apartment complexes, so you're limited to an extension cord from the 220VAC run, which means maybe 2 kW/hr recharge rates. So a battery bigger than 15-20 kWh simply cannot recharge over night. You're limited to small batteries, and you get the corresponding small range (especially when the AC is cranked, which is pretty required for 5-6 months of the year when it's 40+ deg C and 90% humidity out).
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Shanghai weather
Full of shit again.
Let me guess, you read it in a forum.
Sure, coal is still used in some developing nations for generating electricity. The point here is that it doesn't have to. You can charge your EV with wind, solar, hydro, nuclear or any other method of power generation that you can get to your house. With ICE it's fossil fuels or bust - you don't get a choice.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
If they are genuinely happy about it, this surprises me.
I can't speak to their happiness. I have no idea. But that wasn't really the question. I suspect that for many, the ability to charge at work is equivalent enough (given a sufficient supply of chargers). Is it ideal? Probably not. Do lots of people do it anyway, and continue to function for many years that way? Yes. Absolutely.
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
The best selling EV in China (and the world) is the BAIC EC 180. [...] Not a lot of room to put more batteries inside.
Not a lot of need to put more batteries inside that car, either. Once they understand how to build a decent car, they can design a new one around a bigger pack.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Actually, their satisfaction (or lack thereof) with owning an EV *was* my entire point. If they aren't happy about it, then there is some pretty significant dissatisfaction there, even if it is not yet entirely enough to want to get rid of the electric vehicle entirely. (As I said, perhaps because of the financial implications or logistics of going to the trouble to get a different car to replace it), but more often than not enough that they may have wished they hadn't bought one in the first place.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Well, with a Bolt or Tesla you have the 200 miles you need plus some extra and with a plug-in hybrid like a Volt it's a non issue. So if you're genuinely interested it's a solvable problem. Your situation isn't that common and I'm guessing probably temporary?
Anyway, EVs aren't for everybody but the range is less of an issue than a lot of people realize. I imagine those biweekly 200 mile trips of yours result in a healthy fuel bill. Even if you went the plug-in hybrid route you could go the first 50 miles or so on electricity which for me anyway is dirt cheap. I realize that's not the case for everyone. And with a car like the Volt, once the gas engine kicks in you're still getting 40+ mpg. You'd use less than 4 gallons of gas for the whole trip.
Temporary as in continuing for the next two or three years. The time to replace my older car is coming about the same time so I'll probably stick with my ICE cars for now, but the car buying time could come quicker than planned.