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California City Tries Universal Basic Income Programs -- Including One Targeting Potential Shooters (latimes.com)

An anonymous reader quotes the Los Angeles Times: Mayor Michael Tubbs, a Stockton native and Stanford graduate who is all of 27 years old, wants to give at least $500 a month to a select group of residents. They'll be able to spend it as they wish, for 18 months, in a pilot program to test the impact of what's called guaranteed basic income... Workers in Silicon Valley and the San Francisco-Oakland area, driven out of the cuckoo housing markets in those communities, have snapped up cheaper properties in Stockton, accepting the bargain of killer commutes... But Stockton still suffers the crushing burdens of poverty, crime and now the rising rents and home prices that come with gentrification. For those who don't have the education or training to work 60 miles away on tech's front lines, Stockton still struggles to develop jobs that pay a living wage...

Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg and Space X's Elon Musk have both pitched the idea in terms of inevitability, given the growing income gap and the threat of massive job losses because of automation... As small as the program will be, it's not going to dramatically affect many Stockton residents, but the goal is to get a sense of whether such an infusion on a broader scale can significantly alter lives and boost the economy.

The program will be funded by private and nonprofit sources, according to the article. And while it may not start until early next year, Stockton is already launching a similar program where the benefits are more targeted. Stockton is about to award stipends of up to $1,000 a month to residents deemed most likely to shoot somebody... The idea is that a small number of people are responsible for a large percentage of violence, and offering them an alternative path -- with counseling and case management over an 18-month period, along with a stipend if they stay the course -- can be a good investment all around.

46 of 271 comments (clear)

  1. Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by rmdingler · · Score: 5, Interesting

    $500 UBI a month for a select group of individuals, and $1000 a month for an even more select group of individuals.

    Hmmm

    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

    1. Re:Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by Gryle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Universal"
      "You keep on using that word. I do not think that word means what you think that word means.

      --
      Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not entirely sure about the universe - Einstein
    2. Re: Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by Reverend+Green · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's just a welfare program. If everyone doesn't get it, and if it's not an unconditional right, it's not "universal".

      However I suspect this is what some (not all) proponents of UBI really want. A nice little cash handout for the selected and compliant. A lever of money to influence the behavior of the lumpen masses.

    3. Re: Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by dbialac · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Finland tried it and didn't expand it when they said they would, and instead ended it. There's probably a reason for that: it didn't work.

    4. Re: Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by mentil · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A guaranteed minimum income to raise everyone to the poverty level makes more sense to me. It'd cost far less, for one thing, and if the assessment is done frequently enough it'd (quickly) cover people who had a well-paying job but became unemployed.
      Of course the poverty level is far too low, so it'd have to raise people to like 150% of the poverty level.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    5. Re:Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Informative

      "Universal" "You keep on using that word. I do not think that word means what you think that word means.

      It means more money for ammo, and more time for target practice.

    6. Re: Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Replace a million by 10,000 and it's a great idea. Of course, the rich will tell you horror stories about inflation and jerbs, but you know why they don't want that...

    7. Re:Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As long as we're on the topic, $500 is not basic income in any part of California. It can buy you a blanket and pillow, but the rent for the square of sidewalk you want to sleep on will exceed that.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    8. Re: Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Finland tried it and didn't expand it when they said they would, and instead ended it. There's probably a reason for that: it didn't work.

      Finland's program was run by politicians, not economists or sociologists. The reason it was canceled was that it was unpopular, and the political balance of power shifted.

      It was canceled before it was clear if it was "working" or not.

    9. Re:Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by negRo_slim · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So "basic income" now means "subsidy"?

      --
      On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
    10. Re: Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by negRo_slim · · Score: 2

      Why do all the "great ideas" get posted by ACs?

      --
      On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
    11. Re: Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by Cipheron · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No, because the 10K could be funded by things such as flattening the tax rates, which means more people just pay a set percentage of their income, which brings in more revenue, but also saves a ton on processing millions of tax returns.

      Most people won't see a big change in their actual income from that, but the benefit is that if you lose your job, you have a safety net built-in rather than having to go through tons of paperwork and get shunted into a separate "unemployed" system. It's having a separate system for working vs non-working people that creates a big part of the welfare trap: often, actions designed to pull yourself out of the welfare trap end with them suddenly cancelling your full benefits for even trying to earn a *few* dollars more, so the carrot of greater earnings is outweighed by the stick of them cutting off the money you're getting that you need to make rent.

      So, abolish progressive income tax while also bringing in UBI to replace the tax credits we're already paying out. It will mean more social mobility from the non-working to working world, and also give existing workers greater bargaining power. If you know that you can still make rent even if the boss sacks you, you have more power to stand up to abusive bosses. It's all inter-related.

    12. Re: Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A lever of money to influence the behavior of the lumpen masses.

      Yes, to influence mentally unstable people not to shoot up the local school/mall/religious institution.

      No, to influence mentally unstable people to vote for the mayor who is giving them free money....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    13. Re:Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by murdocj · · Score: 2

      Guess you haven't heard of the twinkie defense.

    14. Re: Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by JeffOwl · · Score: 2

      Give me money and nobody gets hurt? That's the plan? How many actual shooters are indigent? Of those that are, for how many of these "mentally unstable" people would a little money actually make a difference?

    15. Re: Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ALL social programs are run by politicians. You can't just screech "no true Scottsman" and pretend that this nonsense will magically sort it out if only you appoint the right "enlightened dictator" to run things.

      The problem with do-gooders is that they always refuse to acknowledge the obvious and forseeable challenges. Once these things arise, they never take responsibility for their inability to think shit through. They may not even admit there's even a problem. If they do, they will just go back to scapegoating and avoiding ALL personal responsibility for the policies they implemented.

      Anything you think up has to survive Republicans and Tories. Even a reasonably bright pre-teen can grok this.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    16. Re:Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      $500 is a little over $16/day. A frugal homeless person could live on $5/day and save $4000/year.
      5 years of that and they could buy a house somewhere cheap.

      Five years of living on the street, what a bargain.

      many of these people can't even have bank accounts, how are they going to save money? In the mattress they don't have? In their pocket, so they can get rolled for it? Bury it under the light of the full moon where X marks the spot?/p?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    17. Re:Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by djinn6 · · Score: 2

      It's possible in Stockton. $750 gets you a 1 bedroom unit. If you split it 2 ways, you'll have $125 left over for food. If you split it 3 ways, you can afford electricity and internet too.

    18. Re: Incentivizing what behavior exactly? by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 2

      Maybe so, but perhaps the $500 isn't there for them to sit on their ass but rather to make it so that a job that otherwise wouldn't pay rent will be sufficient.

      No it won't. The reason the housing costs are high is simple supply and demand: They all want a place to live, so they have to outbid one another for the same limited number of housing available. Eventually you'll reach an equilibrium where the rent still remains above that of affordability. Inflation is what happens when you increase the money supply. And no, you don't need to print more money to achieve this effect, rather this is local inflation due to a local increase of the money supply.

      Sure, in the short term you might achieve what you want, but in the long term all you've done is offset the local cost equilibrium for housing, and now this additional funding is feels required, and will be expected to keep growing above the rate of inflation, just like minimum wage is expected to. (If minimum wage was pegged to inflation from when it started, it would be $4.28 an hour today.)

  2. Universal? by markdavis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How is a "select group" "universal"?

    Is that because it is too expensive to be "universal"? If there are income criteria attached, there is already a name for such a program.... it is called "welfare".

    1. Re:Universal? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 5, Informative

      How is a "select group" "universal"?

      . . . when the all the receivers of the payola are universally supporters of the Mayor's political party.

      "Pay me $1,000 a month, or I'll shoot somebody!"

      This sounds like old-time mafia "protection" rackets . . .

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    2. Re:Universal? by pots · · Score: 2

      UBI is another form of welfare, so that's not a distinction. However the article doesn't call this "universal," the article calls this "guaranteed basic income." So I guess you can direct your ire at 'an anonymous reader.'

    3. Re:Universal? by blahplusplus · · Score: 2

      This sounds like old-time mafia "protection" rackets . . .

      Far from it, the people posting in this thread have done zero research into whats coming down the pipe with the future of automation. Last time capitalism denied people some basic existence we had a cold war that forced into existence the welfare state. The welfare state was a response to rebellion from below. Like everyone in this thread is historically fucking illiterate. When mass unemployment occurs, the gears will start to turn, basic income is the sane thing to do with mass automation. The naive idea we can just retrain people to get better jobs is just bullshit. There are plenty of jobseekers who seek for months and put out resumes and get no response.

      I'd really like to turf these "anti socialists" into a position where they have a family to feed and have been unemployed for months and are not lazy but they have difficulty finding employment.

  3. Re:Problem by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In the US, 90% of stupid posts are caused by trolls. Try getting a job that pays above minimum wage without going to university or vocational training. Meanwhile, training/education cost money. At the very least, giving a stipend to university or vocational students is a good idea.

  4. Re:Wait, what...? by ScentCone · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not so crazy when you see NRA and so many others on the right repeatedly fight tooth and nail to ensure those who are likely to shoot someone are still able to conveniently buy military-grade assault weapons without any background checks.

    Please provide just one link to any single thing the NRA has ever published that supports what you just said. Which you can't, because you're just plain lying. So the real question is, why are you lying? You know that what you're saying is child's play to fact check, and that it doesn't even begin to pass the smell test. So, you know you're lying, and you know that everyone else will know you're lying. So, really, is it just because you're a lazy troll?

    I understand the aim is to increase firearm sales since, if and when they become the next school shooter, NRA's members share prices will spike.

    Ah, I see. You're pretending that you're actually incapable of reading and learning things, or are hoping that everyone else is. But here's the thing: even the people who pretend to believe what you're saying know that the NRA's members are millions and millions of individuals. The vast majority of the funds that the NRA raises come from member fees and member donations (not corporate sponsors). And essentially ALL of the money they spend in political lobbying (which is handled by a completely separate legal entity with its own publicly viewable money trail) comes from small donations by millions of individuals. All of which you know, and you know that everyone else does, too. Which makes it so strange that you think you're fooling somebody with your absurd assertion. So, stop lying - you're not kidding anyone.

    Statistically, most domestic terrorists have a right-wing ideology (e.g. smaller government, racial hatred, non-christian intolerance) and carry out their murderers usually for political reasons not because they don't have a livable income. They apparently had enough money to buy easily available firearms without respectable background checks, afterall.

    This is incoherent, has no basis in fact, and is you - once again - spouting nonsense about something you know to be false, or about which you're so embarrassingly misinformed that it's a wonder you can even string together a meaningful sentence on the topic. Oh, right! You haven't actually done so.

    I can understand their logic as more reasonable than I can relative to NRA's complicit encouragement in arming these unstable individuals to become the next mass killer headliners

    Again, simply lying about it doesn't make it true. Your failure to show a single example of what you're lying about pretty much wraps it up. Though it is worth pointing out that the people who REALLY love mass killings are the liberals. Because it makes a great lever they can use to send out sock puppets like those kids from Florida, armed with money from people like Soros, to lie just like you, all in the name of regaining the political power the left has squandered for years. Please, keep it up! The more transparent BS-spouting you do, the more it helps people to understand why they should vote in exactly the opposite way you're trying to con them into in the first place. So, more, please! Every time people like you do, organizations like the NRA get record amounts of new members and individual donations. You're helping their cause when you lie. Thanks!

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  5. Re:Fuck by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 2

    The ones most likely to shoot someone are also the ones most likely to make $1000 in one night selling drugs. Do you really think they are going to care about this stipend?

    --
    If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
  6. Re:Fuck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're confused, we've had a war and poor people for many decades, not a war on poverty. And compared to what it was like 75 years ago, we're significantly better off. We don't have people starving to death any longer.

    We are, however, giving up the progress that we had made because the lion's share of the government aid goes to corporations and people who have incredibly large amounts of wealth rather than being allowed to go to people who actually need it.

    In the long term, the choice is a UBI or some sort of armed insurrection. We've already established that the rich and powerful won't allow the people to have a real say in policy and are too selfish to allow the workers to keep their fair share of what they produce. As more and more people fall into crushing poverty due to the incredible greed of the wealthiest, there will be less and less incentive to maintain a system that has left them behind. The French and Russian aristocracies may not have seen it coming, but the current crop of American aristocrats should.

  7. Re:It does not work by Tablizer · · Score: 2

    Other countries have tried this, and it does not work

    Not necessarily, they just cancelled early because of politics.

  8. Is it just me? by cdsparrow · · Score: 2, Funny

    Or did i just read that they are gonna give a $1000 per month allowance to potential shooters for ammo and body armor? Novel.

  9. Re:It does not work by sjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It makes no sense to take from someone who earns the money and give it to someone who has done nothing to earn the money.

    Now show us some evidence that the people who are getting the most money in our society are actually earning any of it.

  10. Re:Wait, what...? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

    able to conveniently buy military-grade assault weapons without any background checks.

    Number of people killed in America last year by military-grade assault weapons purchased without background checks: 0.

    Number of people killed in America last year by handguns: 25,227

  11. Re:Problem by Iamthecheese · · Score: 2

    Companies are so desperate they're actually training workers? Travesty! No company should have to train its workers! The plebs need to work their asses off for free just for the CHANCE at a job.

    --
    If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
  12. Socialism.. by thesupraman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Socialism is about reducing the maximum number of people to dependence on the state.
    So it kind of is - they are just quite specific about what 'equality' is, equality is total dependence on state control and funding - basically the reduction of everyone to the lowest point, so that no one will challenge those in control 'who are doing things for the good of everyone else'

    Every socialist state so far has effectively proven this, without exception.

    Socialism is a (one of many) Totalitarianist solution.

  13. Re:Wait, what...? by negRo_slim · · Score: 2

    The AC Hot Take, second only in quality to the new owners crap political postings. I love Slashdot 5.0 or wherever we are now.

    --
    On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
  14. More likely to shoot people by iTrawl · · Score: 4, Funny

    If I'm a peaceful guy not getting $1000, but the violent guy next door does, then I'm bound to become suddenly violent as well. Now hand me my $1000, bee!

    --
    "Everybody's naked underneath" -- The Doctor
    1. Re:More likely to shoot people by iTrawl · · Score: 2

      Improving living conditions, yes. Improving living conditions of the violent people more than the non-violent... That's enabling. Give them $500 like to the others, but also make them attend mandatory counselling sessions and provide psychological treatment if necessary (spend the extra $500 on that).

      --
      "Everybody's naked underneath" -- The Doctor
  15. Re:Wait, what...? by jedidiah · · Score: 5, Informative

    Obama didn't legislate. He issued an executive order that included ZERO due process. It was so bad that even the ACLU objected to it.

    You're just mindlessly repeating stupid propaganda.

    You can't even get this simple set of facts right.

    The measure in question only applied to old geezers on social security. It had no real standard for determining "mental illness".

    It takes real talent to create an "anti-gun" measure that even the ACLU doesn't like.

    It's not what you're trying to pretend it was.

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  16. Re: Wait, what...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Australian here.

    No it didn't. That's not to say that the increase in gun control wasn't a good thing, but please, if you are going to use us as an example then get your facts right.

  17. Another nutty hyper-liberal idea by Sqreater · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It just encourages more people to be threatening for the stipend. The counseling and case management will go away or become a joke and all the program will end up doing is bribing violent people not to be violent - which they will be anyway because it is their nature.

    --
    E Proelio Veritas.
  18. Nice! by BankRobberMBA · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Then we could reduce spending in the form of the DEA! AND on jails and prisons!

    We'd need a good name for it, though. We could call it "freedom"?

  19. Re: Problem by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 2

    Better idea, give them a two year education free of charge ( maintain a minimum gpa to qualify ) vs giving them cash that will be wasted on stupid shit that folks in the 18-21 range tend to buy with free money.

    Also, noteworthy, give the Military a few years and they will train you with whatever skills you want. Choose a skill path which has a civilian counterpart and you're good to go.

  20. ROFL. Look up the definition. (Looks scary) by raymorris · · Score: 2, Informative

    You guys make me literally laugh out loud every time you say "assault weapon". It's a joke on people who don't know anything at all about firearms.

    The term does have a definition, defined by federal law. You can look it up if you want to. If you don't know what any of the words mean, what a "receiver" or "magazine" is, or "semiautomatic", here's a summary for you:
    An assault weapon is one that looks scary.

    It could be a plinker, a .22 like kids used to use to shoot cans in the backyard, if it's shaped like an AK and it's black than it's an assault weapon.

  21. Re:Let Natural Selection take its Course by djinn6 · · Score: 2

    You know, the French royalty also thought it's fine to let the peasants starve. I'm sure they realized their error when their necks were placed under la guillotine.

    Believe it or not, natural selection doesn't favor those who can make the most money. It favors those who do what needs to be done, regardless legal or moral boundaries. Robbing the capitalists is just fine according to its rules.

  22. Re:Wait, what...? by markdavis · · Score: 4, Informative

    >"Number of people killed in America last year by handguns: 25,227"

    Number of defensive gun uses that either stopped or prevented crime in America by non-police, with and without any shots fired: up to 3,000,000

  23. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  24. Re: Problem by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 2

    " This is the first time I've heard of this. My impression was that you get assigned to some role, and you pick up whatever skills you use in that role. "

    Kindof. ( May also vary between Branch of service )

    Recruiters are pressured to fill critical positions first and they will always try to steer you towards them if they can.

    However, as long as you score well enough on the ASVAB test AND can meet the physical fitness and other requirements, AND you can be patient, you can pretty much choose whatever you want.

    Most civilian jobs have a Military counterpart, but the opposite isn't always true. ( There isn't a big demand for helicopter door gunners outside of the service for example. )

    If you know where your interests will be upon leaving the military, make sure you choose a rating / profession that will train you in those skills and you'll be that much better off when you rejoin the civilian world.

    Realize, however, that some advanced fields will require longer terms of enlistment due to the extra time you will spend in school learning the skills to do the job.