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The Rise of the Video-Game Gambler (newyorker.com)

Posted by msmash on from the closer-look dept.

Among the more insidious gifts that video games have bestowed on modern culture is the loot box. The New Yorker: A loot box is like an in-game lottery ticket: for a small fee, involving real money, a player can purchase an assortment of items that promise to enhance the game experience. Loot boxes are an appealing source of income for game developers, and they've been integral to the rise of smartphone "freemium" games, which are free to download but can't be fully enjoyed unless the player pays for in-app boosts. For pretty much everyone else, loot boxes are a scourge. Players hate that they have to pay extra just to be competitive. Parents hate discovering, too late, that several hundred dollars in Clash Royale arena packs have been charged to their credit card. And, increasingly, government regulators are thinking that loot boxes look too much like gambling -- gambling aimed at kids, no less.

Belgium and the Netherlands have banned in-game loot boxes as a form of gambling, and Minnesota recently introduced a bill that would ban the sale of games containing loot boxes to people under the age of eighteen. The concern isn't merely prudish. In a finding that will surprise virtually no one, psychologists in New Zealand have discovered that loot boxes do indeed bear troubling similarities to gambling. The researchers, led by Aaron Drummond, of Massey University, looked at twenty-two console games released between 2016 and 2017, from Overwatch and FIFA 18 to Madden N.F.L. 18 and Star Wars Battlefront II. They noted how closely the loot-box system of each game aligned with five standard psychological criteria for gambling, including whether the loot box must be bought with real money, whether it has tangible value in the game or can be cashed out, and whether its contents are randomly determined.

76 comments

  1. Clash Royale? by Calydor · · Score: 1

    More like Cash Royale.

    --
    -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    1. Re: Clash Royale? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PUBG isn't so bad. The good stuff, like Ghillie suits tailored to the ecosystem of each map, come out of free boxes that drop from planes.

      Oh, and 9-11 was a Democratic Party job so heil Hitlary as mandated by law. AE911Truth org

  2. also don't forget.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    the virtual barbie craze.. the base game is free, but people are willing to spend stupid amounts of money on skins and models..all cosmetic.

    Just a decade ago, such things were scoffed at. Now we have a whole generation of retards buying into this. oh well.

    1. Re:also don't forget.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      pay-to-win is better?

    2. Re: also don't forget.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It is pay to win.

      They'll find some way to make those items affect the game.

      An MMORPG I played had candy cane weapon skins that caused 3d effects on hit. It made you lag no matter the computer, it was in the netcode to wait for that effect and it did not affect the caster.

    3. Re: also don't forget.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, it sounds just like Magic: The Gathering and others of its ilk.

      With the right combination of cards (the right creature, double lands, etc.) you could win almost every game. But you had to endlessly purchase booster packs for the latest and greatest... in the hopes you might get something rare/valuable/powerful.

    4. Re: also don't forget.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Pretty much.

      I see people bring up MtG as a defense for many of the gambling aspects in computer games but to be fair their business model was pretty sketchy.
      You can't compare it to other board games where you buy a set and get going.

      It is not like the cost to develop and print one card was higher than the other and it isn't exactly easier to manufacture packs with randomized card instead of having different packs with known cards in them.
      The entire thing was set up to make kids spend their allowance on booster packs in the hope that the next one would contain a good card they needed.
      It should have been regulated as gambling but most adults and politicians didn't really know what was going on.

    5. Re: also don't forget.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      However, MtG (or any other CCG) has a big difference. When you need a specific card, you can trade/buy for it in an alternate market or your friends. No one in their sane mind would create a deck just buying boosters, they only get you started. However, most lootbox systems you cannot do that. If you want item X, you have to keep buying until you get it. And that's exactly the trap.

    6. Re: also don't forget.. by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      Teachers learned a long time ago that randomly checking homework was more effective than checking homework every time. It still pisses students off that they sometimes do homework without any reward, but they end up doing it more.

      And so for loot boxes. Randomly getting rewards causes video game companies to make more money than giving a reward every time. It is still pay to win, but people end up buying more.

      Hell, pay to win would be more honest than what they are currently doing.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    7. Re: also don't forget.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      maybe I'm playing the wrong games, but the lootboxes in the one I play, nothing is bound to the character or account until it's equipped, so that means you can view the stats on something and sell it on the in game auction house.

    8. Re:also don't forget.. by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      You pay money, a machine spins and spits out numbers... It is fucking gambling.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    9. Re:also don't forget.. by d0rp · · Score: 1

      If it (the cosmetics) pays for the game to keep running and have active development, then I don't see what the issue is. It's better than selling weapons / armor / etc that affect game-play (pay-to-win), and better than the subscription model (more players to play with / against).

      The point is, you don't need the cosmetic items to play or be competitive, but it also allows the people willing and able to spend some money on cool looking stuff to support the game financially. That seems like a win-win to me.

  3. Original paper by GuB-42 · · Score: 4, Informative

    https://sci-hub.tw/10.1038/s41...

  4. Its like email spam. by JustNiz · · Score: 0

    Dont like it? then stop buying them.
    The only reason Loot boxes are still even a thing is because there are customers for them.

    1. Re:Its like email spam. by supremebob · · Score: 1

      Heh... you sound like someone who doesn't have children. Most of us grownups know spending real money on virtual goods is a bad idea, but your kid who's been stick on level 12 for the past two hours isn't going to feel the same way about it.

      Parents who weren't smart enough to set up a restricted profile on the kid's accounts are going to learn this lesson the hard way.

    2. Re:Its like email spam. by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      Yeah I have kids. I also know that its not good parenting to always indulge them and make life easy for them all the time.

    3. Re:Its like email spam. by fluffernutter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Make them help around the house on chores beyond what you would normally expect from them to earn money. Then it's their choice what they ultimately spend it on. You may have to hold your nose, but if you have done it right and given them real life money for the work, they will come to understand how useless those purchases are versus the work they needed to do to get that money.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    4. Re:Its like email spam. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't have kids, but have several good friends that do. Over the years I have seen the Television (with such stupidity as Barney the dinosaur etc...) being the "babysitter", something to hold the child's attention for much of the day. These days I see parents and grandparents hand the kids or grand-kids their smartphone. The kids then proceed to turn the phone to full volume and watch whatever streaming or YouTube video they want (or play whatever game) with little or no supervision. I think that all smartphones need to have a child mode, where parents can set the volume on the phone, and control at least what apps and games on the phone that the child can access. And the point about children making in-game purchases is well made! Some kids may not realize that they are spending real money on in-game purchases and others probably simply don't care as long as they can advance in the game.

      A big part of the problem is that many adults do not take the time to learn and understand the full functions of the smart-phone, and the amount of information and games (much of which is NOT appropriate for children, especially young children) out there on the Internet.

      I also don't believe that use of the smartphone, television, or computer to keep children occupied for more than an hour or two a day is a good thing. Children learn to interact with other children and with adults through actually , well, , interacting! Playing non-electronic games, playing outside (all under adult supervision) are important, but I see that in families that let their young children watch TV (or a smartphone or computer) all day, these important interactions with adults and other children seldom happen.

    5. Re:Its like email spam. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pick a hype from last the decade or two so I can demonstrate your "solution" is a fucking idiot's fantasy.

      If not, I'll default:

      Have you successfully used it to solve the Kardasians yet? No? Are you sure this silver bullet of yours actually works?

    6. Re:Its like email spam. by gweihir · · Score: 2

      Some people cannot help themselves. There is a reason gambling is regulated everywhere in the civilized world and it is not just to make money via taxes.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    7. Re:Its like email spam. by cyn1c77 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Make them help around the house on chores beyond what you would normally expect from them to earn money. Then it's their choice what they ultimately spend it on. You may have to hold your nose, but if you have done it right and given them real life money for the work, they will come to understand how useless those purchases are versus the work they needed to do to get that money.

      Below a certain age, children have poor impulse control and it gradually gets better as they get older. There have been studies indicating, in fact, that males do not fully mature in this area until about 30.

      So they will not relate doing chores to spending money IRL to spending money in a game, particularly when young.

      But they will to habitually learn to spend money on loot boxes, a habit that may not serve them well when they are older and in a casino.

      It's less about the money, and more about the bad habits being ingrained in their psyche.

    8. Re:Its like email spam. by Interfacer · · Score: 1, Troll

      It helps if you talk with them about getting a paycheck, explaining what a mortgage is, explaining what income tax is, etc.
      We have always explained adult life in terms the kids can understand. And they're able to use a smartphone and tablet in a responsible manner.
      They also get a small allowance since first grade, just to make them get some experience with balancing 'wants' with the reality of limited funds.

    9. Re:Its like email spam. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can tell the kids who have been brought up on smartphones and tablets versus the ones who had parents who actually cared to raise their kids right.

      Gaming and smartphones teach kids that they push a button, they get a result instantly, be it finishing a boss battle, ending a relationship by blocking someone, hitting "purchase", or whatnot. The thought of having to deal with people over the long haul isn't really present, so people wind up being as vile and toxic as possible, because there are not really any perceived consequences. Just hop onto any AAA title server, turn on the voice stuff, and this will become very apparent, very quickly. Even though one can block them on line, and pretend that the person is "dead to them", that doesn't solve problems. It just ensures people playing the longer game and keeping social relationships will win over the insta-burn-bridge button that many gamers use in their social life.

      I'm not sure if parents don't care, or just don't know. At least in the past, the FCC had rules of what was shown to kids on TV when it was used as a babysitter. Now, there is nothing out there.

  5. Difference from lotto and scratchers by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    With lotto and scratchers, most of the tickets are worthless. They don't enhance your life, they don't have any monetary value. With a loot crate typically every crate wins something, even if it is minuscule. Maybe you get a different kind of tattoo for your character, or maybe a stupid looking pet. But if you've ever had a handful of worthless scratchers in your hand you'd know what rock bottom really is, and it's not loot crates.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    1. Re:Difference from lotto and scratchers by mark-t · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's like saying that a slot machine that takes quarters but will always spit out at least a one penny prize isn't gambling... you agree to buy the pennies for a quarter a piece, even though they aren't worth that much.

      I realize this analogy breaks down in that the value of a penny vs a quarter can be objectively determined while the value of a loot box might be more subjective, but the general concept is still the same.

      --
      File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
    2. Re:Difference from lotto and scratchers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "most of the tickets are worthless"

      Don't be so sure; there have been sightings of a large, bucolic Sasquatch-like figure going through garbage cans in San Jose, looking for scratched tickets!

    3. Re:Difference from lotto and scratchers by sheramil · · Score: 1

      With a loot crate typically every crate wins something, even if it is minuscule.

      Yeah, because I really needed three pieces of Redstone, two sticks and a piece of rotted meat.

      Eh. At least I got a dungeon with a skeleton spawner. Time to make a grinder!

    4. Re:Difference from lotto and scratchers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >they're different
      Paper has a "miniscule" value in fires or writing surfaces.

      Or make it say 10% off your next soda, doesn't matter, "they're different" is a house made of straw.

    5. Re:Difference from lotto and scratchers by careysub · · Score: 1

      With lotto and scratchers, most of the tickets are worthless. They don't enhance your life...

      They are a form of entertainment. For the price of a ticket you rent a fantasy about what you would do with the money if you were to win, which indeed has some known chance of actually happening. It is fantasy that lasts for a few days (or until you scratch the ticket).

      Why this form of entertainment is "worthless" compared to playing an on-line game is unclear to me. Indeed, you can indulge in the lottery fantasy while doing other useful things. Not so the on-line game.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    6. Re:Difference from lotto and scratchers by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      With lotto and scratchers, most of the tickets are worthless. They don't enhance your life...

      They are a form of entertainment. For the price of a ticket you rent a fantasy about what you would do with the money if you were to win, which indeed has some known chance of actually happening. It is fantasy that lasts for a few days (or until you scratch the ticket).

      You can also fantasize for free and there's only a marginally smaller chance of your fantasy coming true.

      Why this form of entertainment is "worthless" compared to playing an on-line game is unclear to me. Indeed, you can indulge in the lottery fantasy while doing other useful things. Not so the on-line game.

      Other useful things like... watching TV or reading a book or playing a video game for entertainment? Oh, wait. The online game already has an entertainment purpose.

    7. Re:Difference from lotto and scratchers by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      That's like saying that a slot machine that takes quarters but will always spit out at least a one penny prize isn't gambling...

      If you've ever used those claw machines that's pretty much how they go. Some states regulate them differently and require some prize to be given after a certain number of failed attempts. Others slide by with some sort of "entertainment purposes only" nonsense to pretend it's not gambling.

      I think the loot boxes automatically get a pass because whether you get an amazing item or the usual garbage, it has no monetary value. It's for in-game purposes. And your items are lost once the game ends, or they nuke your account for violating terms of service.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    8. Re:Difference from lotto and scratchers by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      Completely disingenuous, people don't buy loot crates for the normal level items which are often already available in game, they buy loot boxes for that little chance to win the high tier prizes/items And it doesn't matter whether or not they can sell these high tier items, the value is perceived and based upon 'coolness' and rarity. It is also based upon the fact that people pay for the loot boxes to get the items.

      Do you work for a games company?

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    9. Re:Difference from lotto and scratchers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With lotto and scratchers, most of the tickets are worthless. They don't enhance your life, they don't have any monetary value. With a loot crate typically every crate wins something, even if it is minuscule.

      In places that makes your distinction there are gambling options that always give something back and it is always junk worth less than what you put in.
      There isn't really any significant difference between giving nothing back or be guaranteed to at least get a randomly colored keyring.
      They reason any civilized place have that distinction in law is that it is only used to circumvent gambling laws.

      The next argument is that it isn't gambling because you can't win money or trade the items for money.
      Japan has a system like that so you have 'gambling' shops where you can win a 'collectors item' that can't be traded for money there.
      The shop next door that is 'completely out of their control' just happens to be willing to trade those 'collectors item' for money.

      Making silly distinctions for gambling doesn't work. The mechanics and effects are well researched in psychology.
      Yes, I know many slashdotters considers it a pseudo-science field, but there is a reason companies spends millions of dollars researching it.

      Whatever laws you want to have for it needs to focus on the parts that feeds the addiction. Not the form of the rewards.

    10. Re:Difference from lotto and scratchers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      According to the original dutch report on videogames and gamling, studies have shown that no. Players consider that all the trash you get most of the time in a lootbox is worthless. Players buy lootbox after lootbox because they go after very specific items, and getting the same shitty skin for Nth time is akin to buying a lottery ticket and getting absolutely noting.

    11. Re:Difference from lotto and scratchers by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Most loot crates have exactly zero value. A one time use item that gives you a 1% improvement in a match is precisely worthless. And you really don't understand gambling if you don't think "worthless" scratchers don't have the same "entertainment" value as a loot crate with worthless loot.

      It is gambling compulsion either way.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    12. Re:Difference from lotto and scratchers by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Some loot crate systems I've seen you get gems/etc from trading in the worthless crap. Then you spend the gems on the stuff you want. If you get lucky you get some loot that is valuable. Some loot is useful in game but not a great value like ones that give you a temporary boost on earning experience. To be fair it's kind of hart to generalize the loot crate mechanic because each game does something different.

      Now if you have a game where your loot crates are zonk prizes (like winning a goat on Let's Make a Deal) then that's a problem. Although with Let's Make a Deal they'd at least offer you $100 in exchange for your zonk prize.

      I think I'd draw the line on if a game mechanic is primarily to be exchanged for money, like with a lotto ticket. With the additional constraint that failure to win results in literally nothing. Not even a low value prize. Lotto and scratchers have lots of secondary prize categories, even so the is a chance you get nothing. It might be OK you buy loot crates and they are all hats that you already own, that sucks. It helps if you can exchange them for credits where you can potentially use for some other purpose in game, even if only another kind of hat you don't own. If you have zero interest in hats, that doesn't mean it's worthless, but you should probably not be buying loot crates if you don't find them entertaining.

      Of course game developers with pay-to-play models are extremely manipulative and exploit particular obsessive personality types. (e.g. whales)

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  6. sports gambling=OK; loot boxes=BAD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so loot boxes are bad, but legal sports gambling is OK?

    1. Re:sports gambling=OK; loot boxes=BAD by war4peace · · Score: 2

      Yes because they differ by a LOT of factors.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
  7. Kids are primed for this by CODiNE · · Score: 1

    If we're going to honest about this, any sort of hidden collectible is the same thing.

    Baseball cards, keychains hidden behind opaque plastic so you have to buy 2x the total to "collect them all". Those machines at the grocery store that show you cool things you might get but you always get the crappy temporary tattoo instead. Raffles... prizes you may win....

    Anything where you can't just BUY the thing you want and have to brute force it with money.

    So if we're gonna be picking on loot boxes can we please do away with packs of trading cards too? I'd rather just buy the whole set and be done with it.

    --
    Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
    1. Re:Kids are primed for this by war4peace · · Score: 1

      Then they wouldn't be called "trading" cards anymore, would they?

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    2. Re:Kids are primed for this by Cederic · · Score: 1

      I'm fine with that.

      I don't play Magic the Gathering because I'm not stupid enough to spend thousands of pounds on the cards needed to build competitive decks. It's not even the financial outlay, it's the entire business model. Fuck that.

      Warhammer isn't much cheaper but at least with that you get what you're paying for.

    3. Re:Kids are primed for this by suutar · · Score: 1

      Ah, but you can buy the thing you want... on the after-market, where someone else has already applied the brute force. The price will vary based on the item's rarity and the demand for it, but will at least be knowable up front.

  8. train.set.destination - invalid parameter "null" by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

    People will try to apply AI to this. But tell me, when will an AI be able to determine:

    When to retain what you have.
    When to relinquish what you have.
    When to exit the situation at a steady pace, keeping at least one foot on the ground at all times.
    When to exit the situation at the maximum velocity possible, even if ground contact is occasionally lost.

    Will it work out that attempting to determine P&L status in real time can be counter-productive, and sometimes a per-session summary is sufficient?

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  9. This is how the Japanese have done gambling by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Interesting

    for years. Go into a pachinko parlor and play until you get a prize. Prize is worthless, but there's a store across the street (usually run by the local Yakuza) who'll trade the prize for way more cash than it's worth. I always wondered why Pachinko was so popular in Japan until I found this out.

    Lootboxes are being used for much the same way. At the moment they don't even need the Yakuza for a lot of games because there's people paying big money for in game skins.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:This is how the Japanese have done gambling by Tukz · · Score: 1

      If the prizes are worthless, why is the Yakuza paying cash for them?

      What are they using this "worthless" commodity item for?

      --
      - Don't do what I do, it's probably not healthy nor safe. -
    2. Re:This is how the Japanese have done gambling by war4peace · · Score: 1

      Money laundering.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    3. Re:This is how the Japanese have done gambling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They just put the prizes back in the gambling machines to get more suckers to gamble away $50 for a toy they might buy back for $10.

    4. Re:This is how the Japanese have done gambling by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      If the prizes are worthless, why is the Yakuza paying cash for them?

      They own the pachinko machines. The point is that they can play a game where you can win a $0.10 stuffed bear 1 time in 150, for a dollar a play. Their store across the street buys the bear for $100. Now, it's a slot machine that the police cannot shut down.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    5. Re:This is how the Japanese have done gambling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know if you are pretending to be stupid, or are actually stupid.

  10. This article is about 10 years too late by nickjj · · Score: 1

    Games have had paid loot boxes for a long time.

    I once knew a guy who spent over $10,000 on getting randomized loot playing the North American version of Pangya during the mid-2000s.

  11. Much too late... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1, Interesting

    ... this began way back when game companies took regular RPG's and relabelled them mmo's. Those of us who remember the big scam during the 90's to "convert" normal RPG games to server based rpg game with subscription. AKA instead of buying the game once you 'get the benefit' of paying over and over. It was the first big scam the game industry perpetrated on the public. The reality is market ideology is false, the human brain did not evolve to make rational decisions in a market society.

    Broken games, mass spying in windows 10, loot boxes, etc. Is because a large part of the public is just downright irrational and intellectually incompetent, from every class and walk of life. I'm sure there are tonnes of educated professionals that bought world of warcraft... but the problem is our species is fucking shortsighted and ignorant as fuck.

    For those us who are rational and won't give our money to criminals, they can grow a new generation of idiot kids, teens who then become adults and think buying software you don't own is somehow normal and the human species eat's it right up.

    George carlin said it best about humanity:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    1. Re:Much too late... by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      Rubbish. I do hope you know the difference between a regular RPG (even a multiplayer one) and an MMO, both from a technical and a gameplay perspective. The difference is a bit more than the requirement to be online and a monthly fee.

      Hosting and running an MMO costs money. And companies have found that developing an MMO costs serious money too, something that isn’t always reflected in the purchase price. They’d rather charge a reasonable fee for the game plus a monthly subscription (typically $10/month or so, which is great value if you’re serious about the game). And once they’ve recouped the investment, a lot of these games drop the monthly fee for the base game, so you can try it and see if it’s something for you. If you think MMOs should be free because Nethack was free, I suggest you go back to playing that.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    2. Re:Much too late... by blahplusplus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Rubbish. I do hope you know the difference between a regular RPG (even a multiplayer one) and an MMO,

      You're an idiot, before the internet RPG games COMBIND both single player and multiplayer in the same game. They just RPG's and that had campaign and a multiplayer component. All the PC games during the 90's came with both. Companies got smart because they knew people like you were morons. That's why diablo 3 was "rebranded" an mmo... aka They took diablo which was a game fully within our control and it now requires a server in order for you to play the campaign portions of the game.

      Game company CEO's want all games to be "online" and stream the files to your computer so you never control the videogame software, they've been propagandizing to you with PR. Don't think so? Go look at UBISOFT's wet dream.

      https://www.gamesindustry.biz/...

    3. Re:Much too late... by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Wow...hows those rose colored glasses working for ya? Making the past all rosey are they? Because i played plenty of RPGs (and Mech and flight and shooters) during the 90s when anybody could run their own server and play and ya know what you got? CHEATING, tons and tons and tons of cheating!

      It was soooo enjoyable not knowing when you hooked into a random online game if half the players were using wallhacks or aimbots or other cheats, BTW if you want to experience the "fun" of how it was like in the "good old days" feel free to download Gotham City Impostors which WB hasn't bothered to patch since 2012 and you too can experience the "fun" of playing a game where 1 out of 4 are using wallhacks and aimbots, enjoy!

      Personally I'd rather play an online game where a company actually monitors and bans cheaters, nice to know if I lose in a game its because I fucked up NOT because someone is using a trainer.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    4. Re:Much too late... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      You're an idiot, you're exactly the kind of idiot that has thrown away your right to own the products you buy and not violate everyones right to privacy. You're a fucking moron. You are a corporate CEO's wet dream you'll rationalize everything away while they charge you more money for less game.

    5. Re:Much too late... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Diablo 3 doesn't require a subscription you dumb fuck.

    6. Re:Much too late... by Cederic · · Score: 1

      You're an idiot, before the internet RPG games COMBIND both single player and multiplayer in the same game

      There isn't an equivalence between LAN or BBS based RPGs and a MMORPG. Very different beasts, very different level of interaction and engagement, very different costs to run.

      Shit, I was playing text based multiplayer RPGs over the internet that were written and maintained by the players and they still needed cash injections to fund servers and bandwidth. Add in 3D graphics and several million players and oddly enough the cost to operate is pretty fucking far from zero.

      You lost this argument with me the other day, go and re-read that conversation instead of losing it again here.

    7. Re:Much too late... by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Waaaah feels before reals, waah! Would you like to go "Reeee!" and shake your wittle finger? Ohhh do you need a safe space?

      Sorry to burst your wittle bubble princess, but most online gamers? Are more than happy to cheat their fucking asses off if they can get away with it. Hell look at how many players you see getting banned each month from MMOs for trying to use hacks, selling hacks is a billion dollar business sweetcheeks.

      Tell ya what pumpkin, why don't you run along and play Tux Racer, I promise nobody will give a flying fuck if you run hacks there,me? I got more than 4 years and a good $400+ in cash invested in my game of choice and I'd like it to NOT be filled with cheating douchebags just so you can wave your little "Freedums!" flag,mmkay? BTW here is your sign, wear it while you wave your little "cheaters should be free!" flag so we know which side you stand on, okay honeybunch?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    8. Re:Much too late... by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Rubbish. I do hope you know the difference between a regular RPG (even a multiplayer one) and an MMO,

      You're an idiot, before the internet RPG games COMBIND both single player and multiplayer in the same game. They just RPG's and that had campaign and a multiplayer component. All the PC games during the 90's came with both. Companies got smart because they knew people like you were morons. That's why diablo 3 was "rebranded" an mmo... aka They took diablo which was a game fully within our control and it now requires a server in order for you to play the campaign portions of the game.

      Game company CEO's want all games to be "online" and stream the files to your computer so you never control the videogame software, they've been propagandizing to you with PR. Don't think so? Go look at UBISOFT's wet dream.

      https://www.gamesindustry.biz/...

      A good point and it's not limited to RPGs.

      FPS and RTS games used to be that you could host a local game with your friends on a LAN, few games will let you run a dedicated server without checking into the mothership, let alone let you run on your LAN with software included with the game. All this is done to ensure they can sell you the next minor variant of the same game in 6 to 18 months time. Of course, the holy grail for these companies is to have you pay on a monthly basis.

      I find myself shunning more and more AAA titles because they've spend all the money on advertising and locking you in as opposed to creating more than 3 hours of gameplay and spending more cash on indie games. Steam's Early Access program has allowed more than a few indie gems to flourish.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    9. Re:Much too late... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you're a douchebag, probably still living at home and full of DT rage. That would be Donald Trump, not detox.

      Get outside and enjoy the summer weather, and quit hiding the in the house fucking your mom.

      -your dad

    10. Re:Much too late... by Voyager529 · · Score: 2

      Wow...hows those rose colored glasses working for ya? Making the past all rosey are they? Because i played plenty of RPGs (and Mech and flight and shooters) during the 90s when anybody could run their own server and play and ya know what you got? CHEATING, tons and tons and tons of cheating!

      First, keep in mind the number of single player games of late is not as high as the multiplayer games. I didn't have the issues you had during the 90's because I played by myself. Mechwarrior 2 and Descent were great like that. With more games targeting multiplayer for lots of mostly-money-driven reasons, there's more with which to take issue.

      The second reason I didn't have this problem is because of this idea of only playing with people I knew. I would play multiplayer with real life friends, rather than randos online. Even those who didn't cheat simply had more time to play the games and were invariably above my skill level. Great for them, but there's no fun to be had there. When my friends and I scheduled a game (or, commonly, got together and LAN partied), half the fun was being able to rag on my friends for being better or worse. It was far more enjoyable than playing against 14 year olds who thought teabagging was actually funny.

      Personally I'd rather play an online game where a company actually monitors and bans cheaters, nice to know if I lose in a game its because I fucked up NOT because someone is using a trainer.

      Moderated servers would be just fine, but let my friends and I run our own. Life has happened so getting together for a LAN party has been a bit of a mess of late...but logistics notwithstanding, there's no technical reason we can't be playing multiplayer games whose servers would have been long gone if the companies didn't put the onus on end users to run them. In 2018, there's no technical reason why both official servers and unofficial servers can't coexist, aside from the fact that game developers have made games which ship with dedicated server builds a critically endangered species.

    11. Re:Much too late... by suutar · · Score: 1

      I'm having difficulty equating something like EQ or WOW that's "15 dollars a month for all the gaming you can eat" with loot crates. Admittedly there's a dozen or two things you can buy in the blizzard store for nifty WOW cosmetic effects (different mount, pet, helmet) but they're not random. Could you please expand a bit on the connection you see? Or am I misreading it and you're not on about loot box type stuff and just focused on the subscription model itself?

    12. Re:Much too late... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      I'm having difficulty equating something like EQ or WOW that's "15 dollars a month for all the gaming you can eat" with loot crates.

      MMO's (aka RPG's with drm that have a subscription), means the game is divided into two pieces where they take control of the software and thereby have fully ownership and control over it. The company can shut down world of warcraft, because part of the game required for it to run is kept at corporate offices. To put it in DVD terms, they just keep DISC2 in a DVD burner inside their office. That's all "MMO"'s are... they are just drm'd rpg's with a subscription.

      So once they have control of the game software they can put microtransactions in it because they control it. You can't put microtransactions in quake 3 for instance because iD didn't take the server code outside of the exe and keep it inside a seperate program in their office. AKA wow requires two computers, there server and your computer, quake 3 only requires YOUR computer it is a fully complete piece of software. So whenever you buy an "online" game you're buying the client that you run from your end and a piece of software they never give you that they control, so you never get a complete game and they have control over whether the game functions tomorrow if they decide to tank the server at their end.

      It's just a sophisticated form of fraud, companies are taking advantage of the fact the human brain is bad at reality and thinking clearly, see the science:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    13. Re:Much too late... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      Diablo 3 doesn't require a subscription you dumb fuck.

      Dumbass, we're talking about software that is server locked - aka diablo 3 is full online drm and takes part of the game hostage on their servers idiot. You're not buying a complete game they keep part of the game required for it to run at their office. AKA a sophisticated form of fraud.

    14. Re:Much too late... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      You're an idiot, before the internet RPG games COMBINED both single player and multiplayer in the same game

      There isn't an equivalence between LAN or BBS based RPGs and a MMORPG. Very different beasts

      That's where you're wrong, the equivalence is - that they are software, software that doesn't run entirely on your machine isn't yours and is basically fraud that's reality.

      You're using language to hide the reality - there's no fucking rational reason to pay more for an RPG game, if I take a normal RPG like baldurs gate and call it an mmo change some lines of code and keep the server at my office and charge a monthly fee, it doesn't somehow magically make it any less a piece software, or make that software somehow different or special. The reality was game developers and publishers knew people like you were dumb and would accept RPG software you don't own or control by simply inventing a new markeing word (putting massively in front of multiplayer) and calling it that and you believed them!

      Pre internet RPG's had both single and mutliplayer combined. They are not seperate games, they were simply rpg's and SP campaign with multiplayer was expected. They wanted to get people to pay for the priveledge of not owning their software and they found dumb nerds like you to fill their coffers - aka now that they own and control the software they can now fuck you six ways to sunday financially. Good job on that.

    15. Re:Much too late... by suutar · · Score: 1

      Okay, so it's the subscription and client-server model you have an issue with. Not seeing how it's fraud, though. Sure, games have had multiplayer without a central server before, but I don't recall one that could handle 100 people, much less several thousand.

    16. Re:Much too late... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      Okay, so it's the subscription and client-server model you have an issue with. Not seeing how it's fraud, though.

      Fraud in that before the internet was invented paying for software you don't own was impossible, aka the evil plan was to normalize and get the public used to being non owners of the cultural products they were buying. So you get a disaster, notice how all older games now have drm server locks in them like starcraft 2 and diablo 3, where as before starcraft 1 and diablo 1 / 2 were fully complete games. AKA it's all a scam perpetrated on irrational people.

      While SC2 and Diablo 3 don't have monthly fee's the software is fraudulently coded - aka the software can be broken from their end on the server, so yes it is fraud. The subscription model was a way to convert normal RPG games that combined both single player and multiplayer to software gamers don't own, the mmo moniker was a PR term to smuggle the idea that "oh its not this, it's that" to the intellecutally unsophicated. They just forked normal rpg's changed the code to require a server they don't release and give you half the game and keep the other half.

    17. Re:Much too late... by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Sigh....see Gotham City Impostors as for why you can't run your own server. Cheaters were able to test the code on their own systems (because it works like the old school peering system where anybody can be server or client) and once they found code that would exploit reliably? They fucking MURDERED the game for everybody else because you had like a 1-5 chance of getting a cheating douchenozzle and since you never knew everyone just assumed there was cheaters in every match and the playerbase dried up and blew away.

      And that is real nice that you and your friends have enough money for a shitload of gaming laptops and you all like Call of Dooky or Madden 2029, but I hate to break the news to ya but you are the 0.000000001% of gamers out there...why the fuck should the rest of us get shit on when you make desktop Linux users look like giants by comparison? And what if we don't WANT to play Call of Dooky or Team Flatulence II, what if we want to play niche games like simulations or flight games or RTS? The biggest player base for the game I like is central Europe...you gonna hand me the money to run a LAN cable across the Atlantic?

      The VAST majority, we're talking 99.9999^%, have NO issues with the way multiplayer works now because IT JUST WORKS. No hassles, no spending hundreds of dollars and setting aside a room in your home for a LAN large enough to make a game worth playing (the average match in my game is 16v16, you got room in your house for a 32 player LAN? thought not), no having to play games we don't fucking want to play just because its whats popular with the plebs, and no worrying about cheating douchebags because they get quickly rooted out by the company running the game and get a nice permaban. Its all butt simple and "just works"...why should we give that up just for you? If there is enough of you someone will make and sell new games for you...but we both know that there simply aren't enough of you so you think you as the tiny minority should be able to tell the majority what we can have...fucking nice attitude you have there.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  12. NL didn't ban loot boxes, only cashing out by MtHuurne · · Score: 2

    The gaming authority said that under current laws, if the items won have a monetary value, a loot box is gambling and gambling is tightly regulated in the Netherlands. They also said that items that cannot be transferred to other people don't have an monetary value, so even though they saw a lot of similarities between gambling and loot boxes containing non-transferrable items, those loot boxes are not in violation of the law. As a result, Steam blocked the selling of in-game items, while the loot boxes remain.

  13. Gambling is illegal in Japan by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    But it's not illegal to run a Pachinko parlor and give out prizes. It's also not illegal to buy those prizes for more than they are worth. Japan has no RICO act so there's no legal framework to tie the two acts together. The people playing at the Pachinko parlor are coming to gamble (Pachinko is not generally a skill based game, it's more like a slot machine). They spend a lot of money hoping to win more than they spend.

    Of course the government knows this. The point is to have a quasi-legal form of gambling. It's sort of how drug laws in the United States are enforced. If things get out of control or if you just plain don't like somebody you can send the cops in to bust everybody's chops. Otherwise you leave people be so long as they're not causing too much trouble.

    Overall I think it's a terrible system (just like I think America's drug war is terrible) but hey, it's a system.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  14. Possible solution... by wertigon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Games with Loot Boxes should get the rating "Adult Only".

    --
    systemd is not an init system. It's a GNU replacement.
  15. Not just loot boxes, but addiction too by Laxator2 · · Score: 2

    I realized that I've been out of the gaming scene for about 20 years now, and when my kid started to play Clash Royale I decided to jump in as well. If for no other reason, just to bring myself up-to-date with the way gaming is done for his generation.

    I also spoke about this with a psychologist, just to have a second opinion of what is happening as I had a feeling that the developers of the game may be playing certain tricks that the kids are likely to fall for.

    The game is free-to-play, with "chests" available to buy with real money and with the possibility to win them slowly, in-game.

    In addition to stretching the patience of the player (after winning a chest you have to wait 3, 8, 12 of 24 hours to open it) the psychologist confirmed that the game employs a well-known method of creating addiction:

    Frustrate the player first and then reward him.

    - Whenever you are about to get a valuable chest you are first forced into a losing streak. This happened consistently over a year and a half of observation.
    - The losses are meant to induce frustration and make the player try even harder for a win, only to get another loss. The frustration is induced via well-chosen glitches that disappear once the valuable chest is obtained.

    Add to this the fact that progress is a logarithmic function of the effort (the require number of "cards" needed to upgrade grows exponentially with the level) and you got a very nice bottomless pit which the impatient will try to fill up with cash.

    1. Re:Not just loot boxes, but addiction too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Im in a top 200 local clan clan, comfortable at 4001 rating, having coins to get my first maxed rare(a musk), have 2000+ gems and open 3-4 chests daily.
      Im a free player think your losing streak theory shows ur vulnerable to the biasness. Ive won more than i lost, the chest cycle is FIXED so you winning more or not before a giant chest doesn't matter, same with a SMC and so on.
      I was elder in almost every clan i worked my way up to 4000 and find the game timing great for a busy schedule (am a country manager) 4 hours between games is just right for the working hours(8-12, 1-5, 6-10, sleep).
      As games goes, this is about as good as it gets for p2w games, ive played many games with money as a feature, cr gives a lot and asks little.

  16. Re:train.set.destination - invalid parameter "null by suutar · · Score: 1

    OMG if I only had mod points

  17. Chuck E Cheese? by gatfirls · · Score: 1

    Ever been to one of these? It's basically a 'ticket' casino for very small children. I don't know why/how everyone is okay with this. I am not talking about skee ball where the tickets are just kind of a bonus for doing good in an actual game that existed without tickets. I am talking about the games that are basically a kid version of the casino wheel games:

    https://i2.wp.com/dorishigh.co...

    http://agrlv.com/wp-content/up...