Elon Musk's Team Is Talking With Thai Officials for Cave Rescue (bloomberg.com)

Representatives for Elon Musk are in talks with Thai authorities about aiding in the rescue of a boys' soccer team stuck in a cave, said a spokesman for the billionaire. From a report: Musk's companies could help by trying to locate the boys' precise location using Space Exploration Technologies or Boring Co. technology, pumping water or providing heavy-duty battery packs known as Tesla Powerwalls, the spokesman said. It's unclear whether Thai officials will accept the offer. Twelve boys and their coach, who had been missing since last month, were found by a pair of British cave divers late Monday. Efforts to rescue them are hampered by narrow passageways and rising waters in the cave system. Most of the boys cannot swim.

Comments

Re:Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

This kinds of crap is why Slashdot is seen as a cesspool these days. Resentful rage-nerds are no substitute for the intelligent people who once populated this site.

Re:Good grief

[kaka.mala.vachva]

Or maybe he really thinks he can help?

How about SCUBA and a winch?

[drinkypoo]

If divers got in there, surely they can get some more divers in there with some more equipment, and then tow the kids out of there in spite of their lack of swimming ability?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Bruce Perens]

Getting kids unskilled in SCUBA through a complex path underwater for a whole hour is really chancy. It's not just a 5-minute dip.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

Cave diving is highly technical. In one part of this particular dive the diver has to be remove their gear and push it ahead of them, in the dark, without getting tangled. This isn't a simple open water dive. An untrained non-swimmer will panic and die, trapping everyone else in the cave behind them.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Mr D from 63]

If divers got in there, surely they can get some more divers in there with some more equipment, and then tow the kids out of there in spite of their lack of swimming ability?

If you've seen the diagrams, its a cluster maze. Experts say it is highly dangerous and only to be a last resort.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[spudnic]

They said it would take about five hours for them to get out. And some of that is in very confined passageways filled with murky water.

Most of these kids don't even know how to swim. Imagine the panic attacks and resultant thrashing that could happen. They could kill themselves and the rescuers.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

But populating the universe with chemical rockets and life forms that last a handful of decades, no problem?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

No. As soon as one of those kids panics, his air consumption will increase by a factor of 6 to 10. If you have an hour of gas left, now you only have six minutes at worst. The physical demands are not nearly as significant as the mental.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Immerman]

Hmm... could you possibly put them in tight, streamlined, snag-resistant "cocoons" that prevent put them moving, drug them into a state of artificial calm, and simply tow them out as inert cargo?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

You need to think bigger!

Send a few more divers and supplies and their parents! Found an Underground City. The kids don't have to come back!

Screw the Top-Siders! Long Live the Mole People!

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Immerman]

What if you just drug them first? The application of chemical calm is pretty well developed, and it doesn't seem like it should be a whole lot more difficult dragging a trussed up kid through the water than the rest of the rescue gear.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[fahrbot-bot]

If divers got in there, surely they can get some more divers in there with some more equipment, and then tow the kids out of there in spite of their lack of swimming ability?

You mean getting kids that can't swim to use SCUBA gear for their first time and not panic while navigating through an underwater maze of twisty little passages, all alike for over a mile, underwater, in the dark, for 5+ hours? I'm a 55-year-old super experienced swimmer and that might freak me out a little. While I'm confident that I could keep it together, I wouldn't be so sure about my 11-year-old niece.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or a small nuke to make a bigger hole.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

As a diver I can highlight a few dangers with this kind of diving:

1) Panic. If someone panics they lose all rationality, these means they will do things like reject their equipment, take their mask off, taking their breathing apparatus out, flap about and risk knocking any rescuers dive gear off. When you do rescue diver training one of the first things you're taught is that if someone is in panic to only approach if you believe you can restrain them, it's better to let them run out of energy, fall under, and pass out, then try and recover them once they're unconcious/drowning than it is to risk a rescue and get yourself knocked out by a flailing arm. There are tactics you can use to approach a panicing diver, such as approaching them underwater and removing their weights (so they can't descend), or approaching them from behind and controlling them by holding their tank where they can't reach you. The problem is, none of these approaches are any use in a tight cave. There have been plenty of recorded incidents over the years of even the skinniest, most petite young girls accidentally knocking even the strongest most experienced dive instructors for six as a result of panic.

2) Low visibility, due to the rainfall and porous nature of the rocks, there is quite a lot of silt in the water, that means visibility may be next to nothing at points, that's a perfect recipe for panic. When you start to do tech diving, one of the things you learn is to use shorter fins, and kick differently than you do open water cruising reefs watching turtles and stuff. You learn to kick in a way that limits stirring up silt, and in fact don't even kick at all if you can pull yourself along a guide line or something - getting the kids to avoid a natural tendancy to kick, or to kick using the right finning style if they do will in itself not be easy without significant practice. If they kick or flap they're just going to make visibility even worse.

3) Parts of the dive are 30 metres, whilst that's not massively deep for even fairly casual recreational diving, it's still ample depth to suffer effects like narcosis, which can cause anything from making someone deliriously happy, to deliriously stupid like with panic in rejecting equipment.

4) Some parts of the cave system are so narrow, the only way through is to take your equipment off, push it through, swim through, then put your equipment back on. Cave and tech divers in general usually have long hoses for this type of scenario so they can keep the regulator in whilst they do this, but keep your regulator in, or removing it and replacing it whilst de-kitting, and re-kitting when you reach the other side isn't something a beginner should ever attempt.

5) Air consumption. It's an hour dive, and an experienced diver can easily do an hour on a typical 12 litre tank, but these aren't experienced divers, the stress of the cold, dark, and tight passages, coupled with poor buoyancy and trim, and zero experience means these kids will be burning air like no tomorrow, and with parts at 30 metres this means they could trivially run out in as little as 30 minutes. That means at some point you need to switch their air supply.

6) Keeping track of them, the normal way to safely cave and wreck dive is to follow a guide line that you've tied and run through the system, this means the kids have to pull themselves along it for an hour. That's fine in itself but what if they lose it? If there's zero visibility due to silt then how do you find them again? You can tie them to an experienced diver with a buddy tether, but that's something else that can get tangled and create a crisis- if it gets tangled round the kids breathing apparatus it could accidentally pull it out and you might find all you have at the other side is a drowned kid. There won't be room at times to have someone swimming side by side with them.

7) Buoyancy control. It takes a while to get that right, get that wrong and serious accidents can occur. If you inflate your buoyancy vest too much you'll get an u

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Hognoxious]

I thought that. Then I realized I've been in a cave precisely twice, neither of them underwater, and decided to shut the fuck up.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Calydor]

If they're so drugged they can't panic they're also so drugged they can't remember to breathe through their mouth instead of the nose.

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or harvest their sperm and inseminate their mothers to clone them, and destroy the original copies?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a diver, this is the most comprehensive summary as to why those children can't do it.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Hognoxious]

Rick and John are two of the best cave divers in the world, if it was easy to get them out with scuba they'd be out by now - those two are so good at this that you can trust that whatever can be done from a diving point of view is being done.

Shocking isn't it - the thought that people who are like actual experts on a thing might know a lot more about that thing than people who are experts on other things - or nothing.

They should maybe try a blockchain or something.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Immerman]

I've been in a lot more caves than that - though never underwater for longer than I could hold my breath. But this is Slashdot - since when has actual knowledge of the subject at hand interfered with wild speculation?

I speculate precisely so that someone more knowledgeable can shoot me down. Or failing that, to argue with someone whose ignorance exceeds my own ;-).

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Immerman]

Nose plugs would seem to solve that, wouldn't they?

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Hognoxious]

On that subject, there's over a dozen teenage boys in there and not a lot of entertainment.

That water's not going to get any clearer any time soon, is it?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Hognoxious]

Aren't full-face masks a thing these days? Failing that there's always clingfilm & gaffer tape.

Somebody higher up posted an excellent list of potential problems. https://tech.slashdot.org/comm...

1 down, 8 to go! Yay, interwebs!

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Type44Q]

They're not just unskilled; apparently none of them even know how to swim. And cave-diving 3 to 4 miles?? Not happening.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[andydread]

its 4+ hour scuba trip each way

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[magarity]

P.S. Am I the only one wondering where they're shitting?

In a cave.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

My biggest concern with this would be how much research has been done into the effects of those drugs on people underwater.

People often don't realise quite how much of a profound effect the mammalian dive reflex can have on the human body, I can't honestly be arsed to find the study but I'm sure someone can if they can be bothered, but essentially they measured the heart rate of a bunch of free divers and a good proportion of them had their heart rate drop to 20 bpm, and incredibly, a tiny minority as low as 5 bpm whilst free diving.

I'd wager there's a risk therefore that a combination of the two could simply cause the heart to go into cardiac arrest.

That's before you factor in the other effects of diving too of course of which there are many - you end up with different gas mixes in the blood, on normal air mixes in a scuba tank you build up nitrogen, eventually this can reach toxic levels if you do a couple of deep dives in a row it's sufficient. To counteract this and allow people to do repetitive dives you can get gas blends in tanks with higher oxygen percentages, for recreational diving this usually means up to 40% oxygen. Tech diving has other blends, but I won't go into that. The problem with even higher oxygen blends is that they restrict your depth limit, because past a certain point with a great oxygen percentage you can suffer oxygen toxicity which will cause a seizure, something that's almost always deadly underwater. I probably should memorise the nitrox tables but I think if you have something like a 32% oxygen blend then you're at risk of oxygen poisoning and subsequent seizure at only about 30 metres or so.

But I digress, the point is that other changes happen too - capillaries get constricted at the outer regions of your body such as around your legs, as above, you have different amounts of nitrogen and oxygen in your blood stream. You potentially have a much higher level of stress, and so on and so forth. Is it still safe to take those drugs with all those things going on? It's certainly not safe to assume that drugs that work fine at sea level in normal conditions, are safe with the physiological changes that happen when diving.

But there's one other big problem, when diving you have to be able to equalise the pressure in your ears, if you don't do that you'll burst your ear drum and be in absolute agony. I'm not sure how you're going to do that if you're not lucid.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[rmdingler]

Yes, but only for the first couple of days, since 9 days without food diminishes the fecal volume considerably.

Further, I assume they didn't shit in the water since they had to drink something to stay alive long enough to be discovered.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Kjella]

6) Keeping track of them, the normal way to safely cave and wreck dive is to follow a guide line that you've tied and run through the system, this means the kids have to pull themselves along it for an hour. That's fine in itself but what if they lose it?

I don't know if it's asking for more trouble but couldn't you use something like a carabiner to actually attach them to the line? They'd probably have to unhook/rehook at each turn but it'd be a lot shorter than a buddy line. Mentally that could be a big help as well, doesn't matter if they lose the grip or can't see they're not lost. It'd be slower but I'm assuming there's enough dry pockets they can set up rest/refill stations.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Rei]

Sounds like the vast majority of those problems could be eliminated by, for each kid, giving them enough valium-or-equivalent to dope a horse, and having the professional divers haul them out while they trip their brains out. Is there anything that they personally must take responsibility for, that a professional diver with them couldn't do for them (buoyancy, air supply monitoring, etc) with the right kit?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

The lines will be tied on to rock formations at various points and will run against the rock at others. If it was a straight line in open water that'd be fine, but in a cave you'll just spend more time trying to unhook it and hook it back on, which in zero visibility water, potentially wearing gloves is not the easiest thing to do without practice.

As a result of that, it's probably easier to just tie them to the diver in front and/or behind and tell them to use their hands to navigate the guide line.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

P.S. Am I the only one wondering where they're shitting?

Fortunately none of them are bears, since there aren’t any woods nearby.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

I made a post about drugging them here which covers that kind of thing:

https://slashdot.org/comments....

Long story short, yeah, you really need them to be lucid, and the effects of drugs that normally work fine above water may work completely differently underwater. Some side effects are obvious, some not so.

I learnt the hard way early on why you shouldn't even take decongestants when diving. I dived with a minor cold, but took some decongestants and assumed it would be okay. Of course, I still had mucus stuck in the holes in your palate as we tend to when we get colds. I descended to about 5 metres and couldn't clear the pain, so ascend, descended, same problem - a typical squeeze issue from trapped air and an inability to equalise the pressure in the air pocket. I descended a bit more to see if it cleared, by about 10 metres it had, so I continued the dive (a 40 metre dive, in 2c water in a quarry in the UK, in November, with about 1 metre visibility - don't ask). This was the first and only time I suffered nitrogen narcosis, I can't obviously say the decongestants were wholly to blame, I suspect they were a contributing factor but not the only factor. Nitrogen narcosis affects people in different ways, but for me, subconcious was telling me I couldn't breathe and I felt this overwhelming urge to take the regulator out my mouth so I could breathe, whilst I was conciously trying to fight that instinct and tell myself don't be fucking stupid, if you take it out you drown, calm down, keep breathing through it, your fine. Horrible feeling having to fight your own instincts to not drown, but nonetheless I made it through it okay by reminding myself I'm alive, breathing fine, a little bit cold but otherwise okay, keep going, all is good.

When I came back up I hit 10 metres and it started hurting near my palate again at the top of my mouth, so again descended to try and clear, went away, ascended, same problem at 10 metres. Running low on air I decided to try and ascend slowly, hurt for a few metres and again at 5 metres it eventually went away. Finished the dive, thought nothing of it.

Now I'm not really sure to this day why it only affected me in that 5 metre window, normally if you have a pressure equalisation issue it only gets worse if you keep going in the direction it started hurting in (i.e. up or down), but for whatever reason it did.

I didn't put two and two together as to the cause and effect until about 6 months later, but long story short after that dive I lost my sense of taste for about 3 months, and was scared shitless it was permanent. The doctors had no idea because I hadn't even remotely connected it to the idea it was to do with the diving, but essentially I'd damaged my palate and the worst part is, even chocolate was like eating tasteless mud, it's really the only way I can describe it - no sweatness, no real flavour at all, just flavourless melted chocolate.

So the lesson here is that even common medicines can increase your susceptibility to problems when diving, and things like valium I suspect have never really been trialled on divers (see my above linked post for the other physicological changes that could impact it), and that if you can't equalise, you can risk some really serious damage, so you have to be able to a) equalise and abort the dive if you can't, b) be lucid enough to make it clear you can't equalise.

Any dive training you do will absolutely and always iterate that you should never do it on medication precisely because almost all meds are untested under the physiological changes divers face, and because you need to be aware and conscious to immediately call out and react to problems because otherwise they'll often only get worse. The cave diving community take this sufficiently seriously that they have a rule- anyone can end a dive for any reason at any time, without question. This is precisely because everything from anxiety about a dive, through to illness,

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[DCFusor]

One of Musk's outfits makes spacesuits. Only an experienced diver need swim. Kid wouldn't even get wet. Repeat as necessary.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Rudisaurus]

Your contribution is one of the best things I've read on Slashdot in a very long time: informative, insightful, AND interesting! Thanks for taking the time!

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, well, is there an international collection of experts from around the world, each with extensive experience in this specific type of situation, who all unanimously agree that it's an incredibly difficult and dangerous situation with no easy answers? Well, didya try just kinda pulling 'em out? Geez, do I gotta solve all the problems around here?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

> take their mask off, taking their breathing apparatus out
Genuine question - seriously they'd do this?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Immerman]

There's plenty of stuff that will calm you right down while remaining lucid.

Fair point on the dive reflex potentially causing bad sides effect though, I hadn't even thought of that. Bad karma to be experimenting on kids with such things unless the alternatives are pretty dire, and it sounds like the worst-case scenario right now is that they have to live in a cave for a few months until the water level drops.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Peter P Peters]

Rick and John are two of the best cave divers in the world, if it was easy to get them out with scuba they'd be out by now - those two are so good at this that you can trust that whatever can be done from a diving point of view is being done. Musk can help on something like this if he can get them better pumps and such, but I'd be surprised if he can, his businesses aren't exactly specialists in pumping water in remote areas as far as I'm aware. I don't think this is something he can fix with tech magic

Great post, and I didn't RTFA but I was thinking Musk would be offering a left field solution. eg he does own a tunnel making company, he may be offering to dig them out and skip the whole diving dilemma altogether?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Michael Woodhams]

Some time ago, I made my personal short list of 'hobbies which are utterly insanely dangerous'. That list is (in no particular order) base jumping and cave diving. And note that 'utterly insanely dangerous' assumes the practitioner has had lots of practice before trying the really dangerous stuff.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Peter P Peters]

Shocking isn't it - the thought that people who are like actual experts on a thing might know a lot more about that thing than people who are experts on other things - or nothing

Diving is one thing, digging tunnels is another thing. Sometimes a problem can be solved using more than one thing.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Bruce Perens]

Thanks for typing that in. Sure, you got toxicity on a nerve. Or in your brain. A lot of people here just seem to think diving is putting on an air mask and then moving around normally.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[quenda]

Further, I assume they didn't shit in the water since they had to drink something to stay alive

You have not been to Thailand, have you?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[bugs2squash]

Wouldn't they be sedated ? Really it sounds like a horror story though. I had read somewhere that the kids had heard children playing and livestock, so it would be nice to think there is a way up and out.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Aighearach]

5 hours, but the whole thing isn't flooded to the top of the cave; the passages between chambers are totally flooded, but it would probably be less than an hour at a time under water.

But teaching them to swim and use SCUBA gear gives them something to do, and a positive focus.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Aighearach]

Hmm... could you possibly put them in tight, streamlined, snag-resistant "cocoons" that prevent put them moving, drug them into a state of artificial calm, and simply tow them out as inert cargo?

Sure, but the lead time to develop, manufacture, and safety test it is about 3 years. The water will likely drain out naturally in less than 3 months.

If their lives were in imminent danger, sure, maybe get some plastic wrap and give it a try, but since that isn't the case, probably not.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Aighearach]

People should stick to safer hobbies, like going over Niagra Falls in a barrel.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Aighearach]

Or even Niagara, if your barrel still floats.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Hognoxious]

Maybe there's a reason why the first step to becoming an anaesthetist is to qualify as a doctor.

Every time there's a hostage situation some genius suggests pumping in "knockout gas" to send everyone "to sleep".

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Hognoxious]

I'm sure nobody thought of that, considered the possibility of creating further problems like collapses, whether it would take so long the waters would have receded by the time it was finihed or anything like that.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

Yep, that's what the Russians actually did in the Moscow Theatre siege, and 204 hostages, plus the 40 hijackers all died. The vast majority of the deaths weren't a result of the hijackers actions, but because the knockout gas put people to sleep permanently. This was exacerbated by the fact Russian special forces refused to give away any secrets about what the gas they used was, and so the medical staff attending just had no way to counteract it or revive people.

I'd say that's a fine case study for proving your point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

Yep, if you ever do rescue diver training the first thing you're taught to evaluate is if the person you're rescuing is in panic or not, you never swim straight up to someone who is in trouble in the water because you first have to speak to them and find out what's wrong - if they don't respond it's because they're in panic. If you approach them when they're in panic they will climb up on you to try and get out of the water pushing you under and pushing you at risk. Of course, a non-panic'd diver can turn into one, so even if they respond to you and so aren't in panic it doesn't meant they won't be when you reach them. You're taught a number of ways to deal with this - approach leaning back with your feet out so you can kick them away if need be, put your regulator in if you have scuba gear on, if they grab you, descend underwater, they'll let go because the cause of their panic is not wanting to drown so the last thing they'll do is follow you under. In the water if they grab for you you can usually grab an arm and spin them around, if you can get behind them you can clasp their scuba tank with your knees and there's really fuck all they can do, make sure your buoyancy vest is inflated and you can sit their all day until they calm the fuck down, or pass out from over-exertion.

It's incredible what stupidity human survival mechanisms can lead to - have a look at my other post about the time I was narc'd, that too make me want to remove my kit because something in my head was telling me I couldn't breath and had to take my regulator out which isn't related to panic, but highlights quite how badly wrong the human brain can go when it's not functioning properly.

Of course panic underwater is even worse, if they reject their equipment there then that's when shit hits the fan. A typical reason that might happen is if someone gets tangled in fishing net. The right response is to just stop, and slowly untangle yourself, or use a dive knife which you should be carrying to cut yourself free. Many people will get into a flap, tangle more, panic, and then take their kit off and drown. In incidents where divers have died as a result of this kind of thing I understand it's not unusual to find them with their regulator out, and mask off.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Hognoxious]

9 days without food

Hmmm. Did anyone count the kids?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

A lot of people also do wreck dive because they feel wrecks are smaller than caves, and the layout is likely to be better known. I've entered ships hulls and that kind of thing, but have never been a fan of doing as some wreck divers do and diving into the ship - as most people know the hallways in a ship are typically much narrower and shorter than a typical hallway in a building. Navigating that when it may be at ab obscure angle (even upside down) which is disorientating, when you're wearing scuba gear, and when one kick or bump can stir up enough silt to prevent you seeing is easily as dangerous as cave diving.

But there's another risk - ships decay, that deck could be rusted and collapse on you at any moment. Other fun dangerous of wreck diving include everything from being freaked out by human remains, to unexploded ordnance. If you ever wondered what a person being caught in an explosion on a ship that subsequently sinks looks like 80 years later, look no further than Truk lagoon:

https://dansdiveshop.ca/wp-con...

As diving goes I'd say wreck can be at least as dangerous as cave, if not more so. I'd gladly favour diving with crocodiles and sharks over deep cave, or deep wreck penetration any day, because at least you can learn croc/shark behaviour and it's almost entirely consistent. Caves/wrecks have too much going on you can't control. The decaying superstructure of a ship is simply a ticking timebomb.

There are a suprising number of diving adventures that have varying levels of elevated risk, such as diving hydro-thermal vents, or lava vents underwater, ice diving (you can actually get diving trips to dive under the north pole (~$24,000 last I checked), shark diving, crocodile diving, I understand there's a flooded nuclear missile silo somewhere in the states you can dive even. Then there are others that sound scary but aren't, for example in Iceland you can dive between the North American and European continental plates - it's actually incredibly impressive and one of the best dives I've done, but it's really fairly tame with the only actual risk being the fact that the water is 2c pretty much year around because it's all glacial runoff - if you ever want to know what full head equivalent of brain freeze feels like then jump in there. Probably the king of all sounds scary but isn't diving though is the typical night dive, that first jump and descent off a boat into sheer darkness with no orientation until everyone turns their torches on is horrifying, do it once though and you'll be addicted to diving at night.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[tehcyder]

If divers got in there, surely they can get some more divers in there with some more equipment, and then tow the kids out of there in spite of their lack of swimming ability?

I'm fairly sure they have considered this cunning plan already.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[tehcyder]

Failing that there's always clingfilm & gaffer tape.

Clingfilm is for wimps.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[tehcyder]

Seconded. This is precisely why slashdot is actually worth visiting.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[jeremyp]

I don't know anything much about scuba diving, but I think there's this thing about making sure you breathe continuously to regulate the pressure in your lungs. I think sedation would be problematic.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[bingoUV]

But hundreds of hostages did not die, too. While many things are not known about the incident due to secrecy by Russians - the operation cannot be said to be an absolute failure.

Anyway, do you have a better plan ? How many hostages have you rescued in your life ?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

Sorry Ivan, I think you've entirely missed the point of the discussion in your unnecessarily rabid defence of the Russian state. The point wasn't whether or not Russia did a good or bad job, the point was that you can't just knock people out and assume they'll wake up a-ok. It requires trained medical support to make sure people wake up, and even then it's not guaranteed, it simply increases the odds.

But for what it's worth, yes, I think it's pretty clear the operation was a colossal fuck up, and yes I do have a better plan, as would anyone who puts people's lives over and above state secrecy. It's pretty simple, if you're going to knock people out make fucking sure you tell the medical people how to maximise the chance of them waking up again, and if you don't want to spill secrets about the gas used, then get some people from the security services to guard and monitor and administer the antidote instead. Most of the hostages that died died after the terrorists were dead and the unconscious people had been moved out of the theatre simply because the medics didn't know how to revive them because they were given no information on how everyone had been rendered unconcious.

If, as is now commonly believed it's true that they used carfentanil then there's a commonly available antidote to this, that whilst not absolute in it's affects is most definitely better than nothing. Had the Russian ambulance crews been provided in with naloxone as soon as they started moving unconcious people out then they could've saved hundreds more. The fact is the death toll was so high because of nothing other than utter state incompetence.

I don't disagree that it wasn't an effective assault by Russian special forces, I do disagree that it can be called any kind of successful operation overall because it was the planning/follow up by Russian authorities in not ensuring the correct medical support was available that created a massively high death toll. To put it another way, most of the people who died, died well after the terrorists had been well and truly neutralised and their weapons neutralised, and really, once the terrorists are dead and their weapons are neutralised, then there shouldn't be much of an excuse for further casualties.

It was basically the equivalent of settings fire to a building full of hostages and hostage takers, having the fire burn the hostage takers to death then walking off without putting the fire out and instead letting it burn the hostages to death too. Normally resolving hostage situations isn't just about taking out the hostage takers, it's about maximising recovery of the hostages, which didn't happen here. There are ample interviews by medical staff who actually were there pointing out that they were just completely stonewalled when asking what they could do to maximise chances of recovery of the hostages.

It was the complete failure to enable administration of proper medical care that prevented that operation being a resounding success, and that's why it highlights the importance of ensuring proper medical staff availability with sufficient information and medical supplies to maximise the chance of recovery post-sedation, which was really the point of this discussion, rather than childish pro-Russian propaganda and flagrantly pathetic logical fallacies like "How many hostages have you rescued?".

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[bingoUV]

Who is Ivan ?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think using Boring Company technologies, such as flamethrowers, in order to evaporate all the water is much more fun.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

Disassembling a tunnel machine like that, moving it across the world and reassembling it is going to take months. By that time the water level will start dropping again allowing them to walk out.

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

The guy who takes a completely innocuous example of how sedatives are risky to administer and can easily turn fatal, especially if proper medical care isn't available to monitor recovery and turns it into a propaganda thread about how awesome the Russians are and how the other person knows nothing because they've never rescued a hostage, all of which is entirely relevant to the conversation but highlights a completely weird need to act as an entirely unprovoked propagandist for Russia.

i.e. you.

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[bingoUV]

Which language are you using where Ivan means this ? A link to an online free dictionary would be nice.

If an online dictionary does not exist, I am afraid you are talking to yourself.

PS : hoping this means something resembling what I mean in your English-oid (English-ish ?) language .

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

And most of the time amateurs like musk make things worse.

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

Okay:

https://dictionary.cambridge.o...

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[bingoUV]

No mention of Ivan at the link.

Nor do I find anything at
https://dictionary.cambridge.o...

Maybe my question meant something else in your English-isque language.

PS : In my language, there is a movie with a famous dialogue. There is a bad word in it, which is regretted, but otherwise it fits this situation nicely :
English, Mo-Fo, do you speak it ?

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

I've got to admit, as trolling goes I'm trying to understand your angle. I mean, you're pretending to be a master of the English language whilst at the same time trying to pretend you don't understand basic concepts of the English language like insinuation, hyperbole, nuance, and context.

You should probably try and find a better angle, trying to claim to be smart at something whilst simultaneously playing dumb over it really just isn't working.

You've already tried the whole fallacy thing and that didn't really work either. Can I suggest you resort to angrily swearing now or something like that instead maybe?

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[bingoUV]

If you don't want to discuss the actual subject, accusing me of trolling would give you a nice excuse for your faults. You could feel smart about yourself without actually being smart.

Whereas I am actually going somewhere with my statements, that too on the actual subject. Let me know in my language, what Ivan means in yours. Then you might actually need to be smart.

Good luck.

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

Honestly, barging in shooting would have been a better plan. It is unlikely the hostage takers would have been able to kill that many people on their own that quickly.

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

Wait what, so you're telling me you're not actually acting and you are actually this illiterate? That's.... fascinating.

I'm genuinely curious to see how you not understanding insinuation leads back to rescuing thai kids from caves and the risks of sedation, so don't let me detract from the actual subject any further - please, feel free to wrap it up and explain how it all comes back to the kids and the sedation. I can't wait to see how these two seemingly divergent subjects converge back together again, so I won't distract from the actual subject any further - go on, go for it, bring it all back together and back on topic.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[bill_mcgonigle]

This answered all my questions and then some. Thanks.

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[bingoUV]

Aren't you forgetting our good friend , "Ivan"? What / who is it/he/she ?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

I think even with Musk's tunnel making endeavours it's of limited use.

You have to consider that his boring company starts off from a well prepared site with plenty of space, support staff and equipment as well as the logistics to shift bored out materials, most likely dealing with something nice and solid like bedrock.

In contrast here you have to somehow first get the boring kit 9,000 miles across the world, when you've done that you have to figure out how you drive it through dense jungle that have at best footpaths, at worst nothing at all. When you achieve that you have to figure out a) where you're drilling to, b) how the hell you're going to get the drilled material out, and c) how you prevent any kind of collapse, or prevent any breakthrough of a cavern holding water resulting in that water flooding the cavern you're trying to get to.

Even if you manage all that, I suspect it's not straightforward, you'll need experts in geology - shifting hard dry lumps of bedrock along a conveyor belt for example that you drill out is a whole different ballgame to shifting out wet silt covered limestone that's more likely to result in the kind of sludge that mechanical devices don't play well with.

But I think the first hurdle is problem enough - even if Elon could ship his stuff over, how long does it take? I'd have thought it'd take weeks to even get the kit over there, much less the support staff, and the site preparation to even begin drilling.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[RespekMyAthorati]

Musk can help on something like this

Like donate $10 million to cover medical and rehabilitation costs.
Or set up scholarships for the boys (assuming they make it out)

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[RespekMyAthorati]

A lot of people here just seem to think diving is putting on an air mask and then moving around normally.

It largely is at 2 meters and clear warm water, i.e. nothing like this situation.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Bruce Perens]

Speak for yourself. I can't get to the bottom of a pool without clearing my ears.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Peter P Peters]

I'm sure nobody thought of that, considered the possibility of creating further problems like collapses, whether it would take so long the waters would have receded by the time it was finihed or anything like that.

I''m sure someone thought about it, but maybe that someone wasn't a leading expert in tunnel boring machines? And maybe that someone doesn't have access to the same resources that someone like Musk does?
I get that Musk is polarising figure, but I've spent a lot of time in Thailand, and if my kid was stuck there I'd want as much foreign assistance as possible. Musk actually has access to useful resources specific to this problem that not a lot of other people can offer.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[rmdingler]

When the first divers located the kids and coach, they asked how many were there and the troop reported fifteen.

A Monty Python worthy numerical adjustment.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Peter P Peters]

In contrast here you have to somehow first get the boring kit 9,000 miles across the world,

A plane

when you've done that you have to figure out how you drive it through dense jungle that have at best footpaths, at worst nothing at all.

A helicopter

When you achieve that you have to figure out a) where you're drilling to, b) how the hell you're going to get the drilled material out, and c) how you prevent any kind of collapse, or prevent any breakthrough of a cavern holding water resulting in that water flooding the cavern you're trying to get to.

Standard practice for any dig

Even if you manage all that, I suspect it's not straightforward, you'll need experts in geology -

Such as someone who owns a world leading tunnel boring company would have

even if Elon could ship his stuff over, how long does it take? I'd have thought it'd take weeks to even get the kit over there, much less the support staff, and the site preparation to even begin drilling.

I don't know how long it would take either which is why you ask. Then you weigh up the options because if option A is waiting months for the monsoon to clear, option B is waiting months to teach kids how to be expert cave divers and option C is dig them out, option C may turn out the least worst option.

None of this is new, we've had mining collapses and people have figured out how to dig them out. Asking one the world's leading tunnel digging companies for advice doesn't seem like a bad choice to me.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[rmdingler]

Further, I assume they didn't shit in the water since they had to drink something to stay alive

You have not been to Thailand, have you?

No. Do they serve up a side of cholera with their icewater?

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you really confused? I'll explain.

"Ivan" is who Hillary-voting shitheads think everyone is, if you didn't support that ugly bitch. They also think you voted for Trump, whether you did or not, and frequently even if you're not American. Obviously you can't be Russian AND vote for Trump, but they are too stupid to realise that because they think saying "Ivan" is just really, really clever. So they say it over and over, like a brain-damaged retard.

They also suffer a kind of "willful disconnect from reality", where they imagine secret agents of the FSB arguing with them on a nearly-defunct tech website. In part, because they cannot possibly comprehend their own complete insignificance, but again, mostly because they are too stupid to consider a simpler explanation like: someone else has a different opinion

Hope this helps.

- Ivan

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Hognoxious]

He doesn't own the only drilling machine in the world, and even if he did there's a tiny little bit more to it than that.

I used to watch Thunderbirds when I was a kid. Even then I knew it wasn't a documentary.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

So this mountain's right next to an airport, is it?

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

you must be some kind of child raping paedophile or something to keep harassing someone about something when you said you wanted to get back on topic

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

Er, I think you need to learn quite a bit more about what you're talking about before trying to contribute further. I'm not sure you have the slightest idea what Musk's boring machine is like. It's 400ft long, 26ft in diameter, and weighs 1200 tons. What planes and helicopters do you think exist that can carry a 26ft diameter, 400ft long, 1200 ton boring machine? I hate to break it to you but there isn't a flying vehicle on earth that can shift that. Cargo ship and road transport is the only option.

"Standard practice for any dig"

Yes, where you have 1st world infrastructure and sufficient space and supporting equipment to get going. None of which is the case here, and so "standard" most definitely does not apply. Even if you can find a sufficiently level place to do this, you still have to spend weeks clearing away the rainforest and flattening the ground out. You then have to have the other digging equipment to even get the starter tunnel built, which in itself takes weeks. That's not quite the same as starting digging from an existing flat base back at home.

"None of this is new, we've had mining collapses and people have figured out how to dig them out. Asking one the world's leading tunnel digging companies for advice doesn't seem like a bad choice to me."

But again, this is the point. You're confusing digging a tunnel in a hot, dry, section of a 1st world country in bedrock, with trying to dig through a mountain in a 3rd world area where there's zero infrastructure. Sure Musk might have geology experts for his local geology back in the states, who understand the geology of the local area well, but that doesn't mean he has anyone who can and will be useful 9,000 miles away advising on a mountain they've never even fucking heard of before. Any geologist will need a lot of time and equipment to survey it before drilling, which they can't without diving, which means they'll need to get people diving in and out, which means... oh we're, right back where we are already.

You still have the question of how you prevent collapse or further flooding, no one has yet been able to explain how Musk's boring machine magically prevents that.

If digging is an option it'll have nothing to do with the type of boring Musk is doing, it'll have to do with the kind of equipment mining companies use, and yes, fortunately, Asia has plenty of this, and plenty more experience using it than Musk's Boring company do. Hard concept I know, but they even have their own billionaires like Mukesh Ambani who has a higher net worth than Musk if money is the issue.

Again, drilling through porous limestone on a mountain with often impassable terrain and poor infrastructure isn't remotely the same as digging down on your own well prepared starting point and setting a boring machine off in a straight line through bedrock. Musk's companies have exactly zero experience in the former, even if they're leading the way with the latter.

I'm not anti-Musk by any measure, he's doing a lot of good work IMO, but pretending he's the second coming of Christ, capable of fixing all the world's ills single handedly is a bit naive.

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[bingoUV]

Any evidence ?

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[bingoUV]

It helps, thanks. In general, idiots could use any word to mean anything.

But in the context of this thread - I would believe only the user of the word what they meant by it.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[bingoUV]

Ok, you might be too ashamed of your own logic in using the word Ivan. Let me make you more ashamed of your logic.

It's pretty simple, if you're going to knock people out make fucking sure you tell the medical people how to maximise the chance of them waking up again

Do you remember the context in which this topic was brought in this thread? Someone proposed chemical means to calm down these kids in Thailand - I would say maybe not a great idea. Then someone said this is a bad idea in hostage situations - I am not sure about all hostage situations. Then you linked to this single situation in Russia - I quote "proving your point".

No relevant point is proven by it. The "knockout gas" could have been (partially) effective for the people who used / authorized it. You would be able to decide only if you know their goals. Example goals, with various levels of success, but there could be many more possible goals than are listed here :
1. To show the world that Russians are awesome in "knockout gases". Success if the goal was this can be estimated only by the managers of secret chemical agent stashes of various countries / organizations, and their chemical attack defense planners. Are any of them afraid of Russia as a result of this chemical attack in Russia ? I am not sure. If you are sure, you have so far provided no evidence.

2. To ensure all "terrorists" are killed irrespective of harm to Russian citizens, any Russian citizen surviving is merely a bonus not a hard requirement. If this was the goal, it was mindblowingly successful - though many other alternatives come to mind. This was the best solution only if the goal was this, in addition to some other goals that necessitate it.

Now, even if the goal was a relatively reasonable one as : to save as many citizens as possible while minimizing soldier casualties - you have provided no evidence for some conditions that are required for this Russian operation to be called "colossal fuck up". Note that the relative value used for soldier life vs an ordinary citizen life is still unknown. And being Russia, reasonable goals are unlikely. But still your logic fail shows through :

1. No evidence provided that there were better alternatives after a thorough military reconnaissance of the situation. Let alone thorough, you have provided no evidence of even a half-baked recce. If you were not in the inner circle of Russian military-police-intelligence clique at that time - it would be hard for anyone to believe you have significant knowledge on the subject to have any opinion at all.

Remember, a positive integer number of Russian citizens survived.

2. That releasing the gas itself was the problem instead of the secrecy , and other mishandling after releasing the gas. Since someone recommending release of gases in this Thai context, or some other hostage situation in general, may very well not be recommending to make the same other mistakes that were made by Russians after releasing the gas.

Since you are using most of the words in your post for decrying the Russian decisions after releasing the gas - let me remind you they are irrelevant.

It was basically the equivalent of settings fire to a building full of hostages and hostage takers, having the fire burn the hostage takers to death then walking off without putting the fire out and instead letting it burn the hostages to death too

How would hundreds of hostages survive in this "equivalent" setting ? If the fire is not big / hot / smoky enough, some hostage takers might survive too.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[bingoUV]

s/conditions that are required for this Russian operation to be called "colossal fuck up". / conditions that required to prove that this Russian operation proves much about knockout gases in hostage situations in general /

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

Elon can snap his fingers and an airport will appear!

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

Gosh, if you only use words that are explicitly defined in the dictionary you must be hopelessly weird to deal with, and your life must be incredibly boring.

Your presence on this site must be a bit pointless, because whilst everyone was talking about the rise of things like memes and gigaflops you must've been sat there confused about what everyone was talking about until those terms were entered into the dictionary about a decade later.

What's it like willfully living in the past as a fucking idiot?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Peter P Peters]

He doesn't own the only drilling machine in the world,

But he owns one of most innovative with some of the leading experts in their field and also he has a history of jumping in at a moment's notice to help out if he can. So why wouldn't you at least ask?

and even if he did there's a tiny little bit more to it than that.

Yeah and the only way to find out what that 'little bit' is is to ask.

I used to watch Thunderbirds when I was a kid. Even then I knew it wasn't a documentary.

I solve problems for a living, and when you need help with a tricky problem I find the best path is to find someone who knows a lot about the subject and ask them. Even better when that person also has a lot of weight they can throw into a project to help out if required. True story.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Peter P Peters]

Er, I think you need to learn quite a bit more about what you're talking about before trying to contribute further. I'm not sure you have the slightest idea what Musk's boring machine is like. It's 400ft long, 26ft in diameter, and weighs 1200 tons.

And it's one single piece right?

Yes, where you have 1st world infrastructure and sufficient space and supporting equipment to get going. None of which is the case here, and so "standard" most definitely does not apply. Even if you can find a sufficiently level place to do this, you still have to spend weeks clearing away the rainforest and flattening the ground out. You then have to have the other digging equipment to even get the starter tunnel built, which in itself takes weeks.

Standard practice at most mine sites. I did some work on one once years ago, you might be surprised what these guys can do.
Weeks is not a problem when the alternative solution is months.

You're confusing digging a tunnel in a hot, dry, section of a 1st world country in bedrock, with trying to dig through a mountain in a 3rd world area where there's zero infrastructure.

Back to the mining thing, Elon may not be a miner, but you can bet his team have that background. Or do you think he assembled his team from from the UCLA class of 2016 Digging Holes But Only Under 1st World Cities?

You still have the question of how you prevent collapse or further flooding, no one has yet been able to explain how Musk's boring machine magically prevents that.

Details for the experts to work out. TFA only says that Musk has sent over an Engineering team to check it out. Maybe instead of sending experts on site they should've just made a decision based on Slashdot comments instead? That's how you get shit done!

I'm not anti-Musk by any measure, he's doing a lot of good work IMO, but pretending he's the second coming of Christ, capable of fixing all the world's ills single handedly is a bit naive.

No-one said that. TFA said the Thai govt asked for his help and he sent a team to take a look. What do you think he should he have done instead?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

"And it's one single piece right?"

It doesn't matter how many pieces you have, unless you can convince the US air force to gather it's entire fleet of C-17 galaxies from wherever they're spread across the globe, where in some cases they're already busy on humanitarian and resupply missions helping other people, you still can't shift something of that size and weight. Of course, you could do multiple trips, but something like the C-17 only has a flight range of 5000 miles, which is half the needed distance, and at a top speed of 500 mph, again, typical for that kind of transporter, you're looking at a 36 hr round trip in flight time alone, much less maintenance and refueling time. Even with a handful of these planes, splitting the kit up, is still going to take a hell of a long time, possibly just as long as sticking the thing pre-built on a cargo ship would take when all is said and done.

You still then have no helicopters that can shift anything of that size and wait even in pieces. Not to mention the time and added resources that disassembling the biggest and heaviest parts of the drilling machine would add to your plan.

You still need weeks, probably months to get it all into position even in the best case.

"Standard practice at most mine sites. I did some work on one once years ago, you might be surprised what these guys can do."

There's a substantial time difference, "you'd be surprised what these guys can do" isn't an argument, it's just bullshit. Clearance of rainforest for mining is just about always done with burning, but smoke from fires or potential runaway fires is the last thing these guys need to deal with on top of everything else. The next option, heavy equipment against risks collapse, an issue you're still entirely ignoring despite it being one of the single most important reasons heavy equipment isn't being favoured here, but even that could take weeks. So there's the manual option - again, months.

"Back to the mining thing, Elon may not be a miner, but you can bet his team have that background. Or do you think he assembled his team from from the UCLA class of 2016 Digging Holes But Only Under 1st World Cities?"

You basically think that if you can drive a truck for a living delivering goods across the country, then you can win Nascar/Formula 1. If you think the two things are comparable I don't know what to tell you - you don't even remotely know enough to be having this conversation - your complete ignorance of the fact you think you can just airlift a 1200 ton boring machine by helicopter in itself highlights that. To give a tech analogy, it's like saying if you can build Websites in node.js/React, you can write real time safety critical assembly. The two aren't even remotely comparable, the only thing we have in common here is "making a hole in the ground". The whole direction, terrain, type of rock, type of hazards, time available, support available are completely different.

"Details for the experts to work out."

This type of dismissal is precisely why you shouldn't be commenting - you're backing an argument with comments like this that highlight precisely why your argument is nonsense. Did you really not stop to consider that maybe the experts have already worked out those details and decided your plan isn't feasible? No? Well that's what's happened and that's why they're not going ahead with it.

"TFA only says that Musk has sent over an Engineering team to check it out. Maybe instead of sending experts on site they should've just made a decision based on Slashdot comments instead? That's how you get shit done!"

Again, the experts are already there. The fact you think only Elon Musk can provide experts shows a profound level of ignorance on your behalf. There are other experts in the world than Elon's staff you know, and some of them know far more about this type of rescue than anyone in Elon's employ ever will.

"No-one said that."

Yet it's the entire implication of your argument - that everyone else there so far hasn

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[bingoUV]

Since you were genuinely curious, here you go. You are welcome.

PS : No Ivan explanation from you, so Ivan cannot be tied to the original story yet.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

None of which even remotely counters the GP's point that knocking people out poses a risk of killing the person because that's exactly what happened when the Russians tried it.

He's right, you're wrong, it's not even debatable. Why are you even still trying? Is there really nothing else in your life? Have you considered suicide? It'd be far less painful for you than continuing with nothing else in your life than being wrong on the internet must be.

Re: How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi Ivan,

Given that Putin has invaded and annexed or defacto annexed parts of Ukraine, Moldova, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, has supported rapists like Assange. Has shot down a Malaysian civilian airliner, has tried to spin elections all across Europe including explicitly funding France's far right, has stolen billions from his own people, has drug cheated in every major sports event including Sochi to screw over every other country in the world, bribed Fifa to even be able to host the world cup in the first place, killed thousands of people in Syria, and so on and has used his troll factories to spread online propaganda in support of all of these things, then why for one minute would you think someone calling it out has anything to do with Hillary Clinton?

Oh wait, I know the answer. Because you're a Trump fagot who was raped by daddy as a kid and hates the world for it, and hopes Trump will rape him instead just like Milo did.

Yes, yes, I know you think you're very smart because you implied you weren't a Trump voter, but there's literally no other reason you'd think using the term "Ivan" has anything to do with Trump/Clinton, hell, by your own logic, the OP might not even be American nor have any ability to partake in or care about the US elections in the first place.

Go back to being raped by daddy, you'll feel better for it as he vents his energy on you and his sperm up your anus. Trump won't have you, he's too busy fucking his own daughter.

Ivan FWIW is what people call Russians since, well, forever, long before Trump was a presidential candidate, or even born in fact, much like Japanese get called Japs, Germans get called Gerrys, French people frogs, and Americans yanks. Not everything revolves around your orange skinned, fake haired, small handed, daddy fuck fantasy.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[bingoUV]

1. A hostage situation can possibly pose no risks at all except knockout gases ?

2. If a huge majority of the arguments against the Russian knockout gas incident are the subsequent mishandling of the project - we don't have much of a conviction here that the knockout gas itself was the problem.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Peter P Peters]

your complete ignorance of the fact you think you can just...

I think that when you want help you ask the experts and get the options, which is what happened.
But you knew all along, they should've just called you instead. Why ask actual experts when you can ask some guy on the internet instead...

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

I'm not the one pretending Musk has a magic unicorn that can fix everything in the world. I'm the one pointing out the experts are already there, and they've already asked them.

I can also point out now that there's a reason the experts now have 8 kids out by NOT using your plan.

You can try and make it personal all you want, but the things I've said have held true about the rescue - your Elon Musk fantasies have been proven to be exactly that, unworkable ignorant fantasies.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean apart from the fact the knockout gas caused everyone to die? That's a pretty big fucking problem, you utter fucking idiot.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[bingoUV]

1. Everyone did not die
2. Does it prove that "knockout gas", if used, will cause "everyone to die", whatever it means, in every hostage situation ever ?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mother fucking bastard, the problem started when the hostages were taken. Terrorists started executing the hostages. If you were one of the 204 dead, we wouldn't have your idiotic comments here, cunt.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Hognoxious]

My day-to-day watch - nothing special, a Casio - is rated for 200m. That's about 198m more than I'm likely to go.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Peter P Peters]

I'm not the one pretending Musk has a magic unicorn that can fix everything in the world. I'm the one pointing out the experts are already there,

You pointed out that dive experts are there which I agreed with. I merely argued that TFA is about the Thai gvot asking Musk for advice is prefectly legitimate request for other possible options of which Musk has access to other experts in different fields.
The magic unicorn claim is in your head and says more about you than anyone else.

I can also point out now that there's a reason the experts now have 8 kids out by NOT using your plan.

It's not my plan, TFA reported that the Thai Govt initially looked into multiple options one of which was a dive rescue, others included digging them out. Any responsible planning would investigate all options even if Options B, C and D don't get used. The way you make the decision on Option A is by exploring option B, C and D and ruling them out based on expert advice of ALL options.

You can try and make it personal all you want

Interesting. Apparently it's my plan, and apparently I believe in magic unicorns
There's only one person making this personal my friend. TFA is about exploring alternative options which you seemed reluctant to accept because you appear to have some irrational hate for Elon Musk.

your Elon Musk fantasies have been proven to be exactly that, unworkable ignorant fantasies.

The Magic unicorns is your quote friend. I saw in the news that Musk's team already developed and built a rescue sub specifically for this operation. In response to your question why do people call Musk it's because of this. He has a record of responding quickly with solutions. This might not matter to you, but for people who want stuff done this has value.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

"You pointed out that dive experts are there which I agreed with. I merely argued that TFA is about the Thai gvot asking Musk for advice is prefectly legitimate request for other possible options of which Musk has access to other experts in different fields.
The magic unicorn claim is in your head and says more about you than anyone else."

Yet you're still parroting mistruths, the Thai government still did not ask Musk, Musk got in touch with them.

He brought along his magic unicorn, a submarine that wouldn't fit through the caves, and they ignored it, because it was a useless and dangerous distraction.

So here we are, with the rescue going exactly as I suggested it would, and Musk's suggestions being treated exactly as I suspected they would, and drilling being a non-started, exactly as I said would likely be the case. Why are you carrying on? You made a suggestion, a reasonable one to ask - why can't they dig them out - and I explained why they couldn't, because you didn't realise boring machines were so big and heavy. It should really have ended there but instead you carried on, and have continued to make a fool of yourself, to the point we're now in a situation where the things I said have come to fruition and proven true.

What do you want to do? Keep arguing against proven reality now at this point? Sometimes it's best to just accept that you asked a legitimate question about why something isn't possible, get told why, and accept that, rather than try and pretend you know better when you're ridiculously out of your depth.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Peter P Peters]

the Thai government still did not ask Musk,

From TFA "Elon Musk’s engineering team is set to arrive in Thailand on Saturday... The Thai government confirmed the timeline for Musk’s group in a Facebook post."
Sounds like an invite was extended to me. They don't just let anyone get involved with these types of things.

You made a suggestion, a reasonable one to ask - why can't they dig them out - and I explained why they couldn't,

None of those explanations were a blocker though, which is what I responded with. We also both agree that we let the experts do their thing, so why do you claim that some expert shouldn't be allowed at the table?

because you didn't realise boring machines were so big and heavy.

You didn't realise that Elon had more potential solutions than just boring machines...

where the things I said have come to fruition and proven true.

Dive rescue was always Option A, that was never in question. But congratulations for claiming the idea as your own. How proud you must be of yourself...

What do you want to do? Keep arguing against proven reality now at this point?

You've made it clear you don't get the concept of an options analysis. But if you need to keep going I have time.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

"Sounds like an invite was extended to me."

Yes, it would, because you're desperately flailing trying to recover a lost argument. Anything will sound like confirmation bias to you because you're incapable of accepting that you were wrong. Meanwhile the head of the Thai rescue has still said nothing he provided was any use - I'm sure they will allow anyone on site if they promise they can help, but when all they do is drop a fucking useless submarine in the way, and show the world how they're in the cave even though they're not fucking contributing then it's not surprising he was rebuked as being unable to contribute.

"None of those explanations were a blocker though"

Um, okay, if you think that, you still need to explain how you get the fucking thing there in a timely manner and prevent cave in, and no, using your magic words "experts!" doesn't do it, because if the experts could easily answer those questions they'd have fucking done it wouldn't they? but they couldn't, so they didn't. Again, why are you persisting in arguing against reality? If it was so easy and so foolproof why didn't they even remotely begin to achieve it?

"so why do you claim that some expert shouldn't be allowed at the table?"

Because the only place they're experts at cave rescue is in your head.

"You didn't realise that Elon had more potential solutions than just boring machines..."

Which were also fucking useless as it turns out.

"Dive rescue was always Option A, that was never in question. But congratulations for claiming the idea as your own. How proud you must be of yourself..."

No it wasn't, option A was to leave them in there until the water subsided. Option B was to find an alternative way in. However, it became clear from the weather forecasts that they had to resort to diving which was option C because they'd run out of time for the other options. If you actually read my post rather than going full retard in this thread you'd have seen I discouraged diving precisely because I understand the risks, but, given that it became the only remaining option because your Elon on a magical unicorn idea failed to materialise then it made sense to do this, rather than waiting for Elon's magic to never arrive resulting in 12 drowned kids.

"You've made it clear you don't get the concept of an options analysis. But if you need to keep going I have time."

What would be the point? You've already lost the argument because of the reality of how things actually went down, if you're going to continue engaging in reality denial, then I've got better things to do.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Peter P Peters]

Yes, it would, because you're desperately flailing trying to recover a lost argument.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/s...

Cognitive dissonance is a bitch ain't it?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

Because Elon Musk is a credible source about Elon Musk?

Like a true attention seeking psycopath Musk is completely mis-representing things in that tweet, he's imply that because the Provincial Governor was not a subject matter expert, he also was not the rescue chief. This is nonense, the governor absolutely was leading the effort because you don't have to be an SME to do so, the SME's job is to coordinate offers for help and determine based on expert opinion what will and wont help, weigh up options based on advice from experts, and deal with the media.

Musk is also implying Rick was the only SME there, whilst Rick responded to Musk because Musk made promises about having a magical unicorn that could save the kids. When the unicorn and Musk turned up it turned out said unicorn was actually completely fucking useless because it was much bigger than promised, and sat unused in the way near the entrance of the cave. This is also why the guy in charge of the rescue made a point of saying as politely as possible that it was useless, because Musk had made a promise of one thing, then turned up with it only for it to be nothing like what they were promised just so he could get his face in the media as part of this rescue.

Perhaps the biggest irony of Musk's Twitter post, is that Rick, as one of the SMEs there was one of the most key voices in saying that it was useless for the rescue when it came to. It was too big, and would've blocked the smallest part of the cave, which would've just create an incredibly dangerous situation and would've almost certainly resulted in more drowned divers/kids.

So again, I repeat, why are you denying reality? Nothing Musk provided was used, the guy in charge of coordinating the rescue said so publicly because Musk had done nothing other than get in the way. If he's such a useful genius in every issue ever, and if he had so many options and solutions, then why were none of them used? You're still trying to deny reality.

I'll say again, I actually liked Musk because as arrogant as he can be, he did a good job with the hurricane relief efforts last year. This time around he couldn't help, but appears to be arguing against the people who actually did a really fucking good job because he can't accept that he can't win them all. Meanwhile, like a rebirth of Steve Jobs he seems to be creating a reality distortion field that reality denying fucknuts like you are clinging on to.

So I'll say it one last time, the subject matter experts, including the one cited by Musk, and his dive buddy on this mission - John Volanthen, opted to go for a diving only approach because Musk's sub wasn't any use in solving this problem. I'll also say again, that you cannot change reality no matter how much you try - nothing Musk provided was useful, hence why it wasn't used, even though it was there (and in the way).

If you can't get it into your head that nothing Musk provided was useful, hence why it wasn't used, then I'm not really sure what to tell you, you're stuck behind a reality distortion field as badly as any Apple zealot ever was, and need to get a fucking grip.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Peter P Peters]

Because...

The lady doth protest too much...

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

Maybe there is some hope for your after all given you've apparently come to the realisation that you can't in fact deny reality any further, and now accept Musk's offers were all completely fucking useless given you have nothing else to say, so thanks for that.

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Peter P Peters]

If you say it enough, one day even you might believe it.
wibble wibble...

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

Oh I've long believed reality, there's no reality distortion fields here.

You really can't handle being wrong well can you?

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Peter P Peters]

You're still here? No autographs sorry bud....

Re:How about SCUBA and a winch?

[Xest]

Given that you've resorted to deflection, rather than an honest recognition of the problem at this point I don't particularly expect this to sway you, but here you go, on the off chance, you might find it interesting:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk...

Still think Musk is in it for anything other than his ego in this case? Really?

Re:Good grief

[Nidi62]

Or maybe he really thinks he can help?

I'm still waiting for Al Gore to show up and warn them about Manbearpig.

Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[Mr D from 63]

I'd hate to be the guy having to decide how to get those kids out. No good options at the moment. I don't see how batteries would help, I'm sure they already have batteries and are apparently running power/communication to the boys location.

I wonder if there is a flexible pipe with a wide enough ID to pull these boys through. If they could snake such a pipe through the underwater sections, then pump out the water, it might be an option. I suppose that effort itself would be quite dangerous and take a lot of time to act on, if its even feasible to start with.

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[Train0987]

I wish someone could explain how they actually got in there in the first place. Even before it flooded it seems like a tough place to get too. Who led them there and why? Is he facing any punishment?

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[Bruce Perens]

The soccer coach who led them into this cave for some sort of bonding trip is in there with them. And yes, questions are being asked.

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[Mr D from 63]

I"m sure they'll get around to looking at how this happened, but obviously that is for another day. I do find it curious that none of them apparently know how to swim. I suppose its just a cultural difference or something like that, for some reason they just don't prioritize teaching kids to swim.

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Mr D" you're a complete retard for suggesting that retarded shit you patent non-engineer Trump moron.

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[Immerman]

Have you ever done any caving? Squeezing through tight passages, wondering if you're going to get stuck is just part of the fun. If those passages are underwater however, it becomes a *much* bigger challenge.

And if you also don't know how to swim, much less use SCUBA gear, then you've got a real problem on your hands. Best case scenario is probably running a rope the entire length of the underwater tunnel, and escort them out one at a time by a pair of professional cavers carrying their SCUBA gear in front of them while another team talks the kids through it via a waterproof earpiece to prevent panic.

On the plus side - being trapped in a flooded cave should give them plenty of time to practice basic diving skills in preparation.

On the negative side - if someone does panic and get firmly stuck, I wouldn't want to be the caver that has to tear apart some kid's body so that the rest can get through.

Re: Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be American.
Punish everyone.
Get compensation for everything.

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[JaredOfEuropa]

The area in the cave they visited was apparently pretty easy to access. They fled to where they are now after they got trapped, to escape the rising water.

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup, I thought of the same thing, but the trouble is that the pipe needs to be kilometres long and it cannot be welded from sections inside the cave, that has to be done outside.

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[mea2214]

Squeezing through tight passages, wondering if you're going to get stuck is just part of the fun.

How can anyone think that is fun?

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[Bradmont]

Somebody watched the recent Lost in Space reboot...

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[Hognoxious]

I wonder if there is a flexible pipe with a wide enough ID to pull these boys through.

I was wondering how long it would be before some twat suggested a hyperloop.

Re: Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[Type44Q]

They could conceivably pump the river half-dry somewhere upstream if they had enough pumps/piping... and enough power. Get it??

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[magarity]

I wish someone could explain how they actually got in there in the first place. Even before it flooded it seems like a tough place to get too. Who led them there and why? Is he facing any punishment?

If you're in the part that's easy to get to and water starts pouring in the way you came, the narrow parts that lead away up-slope become surprisingly easy to squeeze through.

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[samwichse]

It is fun.

Try it :)

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish someone could explain how they actually got in there in the first place. Even before it flooded it seems like a tough place to get too. Who led them there and why? Is he facing any punishment?

My understanding is that the cave they were in is closed in the summer due the fact that it floods every summer. The cave just flooded early this year and this group apparently didn't check the weather carefully enough.

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[Anonymous Coward]

As the diver a few posts above noted, some part of the dive may be a depth of around 30 meters. At this depth you'd be under 3 BAR or around 45 psi of pressure (something like a bicycle tire's worth).

That's a problem since the pipe has to be stiff enough to avoid being crushed, but also flexible enough to be manipulated by a human in cramped conditions.
and remember you're also trying to manhandle the pipe plus the mass of the water inside it which is about the same as moving around a giant tube full of slightly buoyant rocks.

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[ElizabethGreene]

Getting stuck is only part of the problem, and basic diving skills are just the start. When cave diving the real problem is sediment. During training you learn to kick even with or above your horizontal torso. Kicking too low can stir up the sediment and cause a "silt-out". This reduces the visibility to zero and is scary even for a trained diver.

According to the news story I heard they are ~3 miles in. For the distance, they'll probably bring them out on rebreathers. That complicates things because they are almost certainly deeper than 6 meters, so they'll need to manage decompression stops. If they are deeper than 30 meters, they'll have to manage gas mix changes too.

It's a seriously non-trivial problem, and squeezes in the cave that separate the rescue diver and the rescue-ee only make it worse.

DIR or DIE.

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[Peter P Peters]

I wish someone could explain how they actually got in there in the first place. Even before it flooded it seems like a tough place to get too. Who led them there and why? Is he facing any punishment?

It's a cave, and boys* like exploring caves.


*Most boys not brought up in under cotton wool laws of the 21st century where you can't do shit any more. Thailand is one of those places where you're still allowed to have fun.

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[Immerman]

Yeah, you make some good points. I guess I'm thinking more of training on the order of - this is how you breathe while underwater (extended snorkel practice?), and be a good little piece of cargo, because more lives than yours depend on you keeping your cool so the nice people putting their lives on the line can rescue you. If they actually decide to make the attempt, it's got to be better than nothing, right?

I mean it seems like a situation where if things go sideways, nothing that kid is going to do on their own will help the situation, except keeping their cool and not moving until they get explicit instructions.

Also why I suggest having a voice in their ear.

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[ChrisMaple]

For someone slightly claustrophobic like myself, it's close to terrifying. Not even slightly fun.

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[Aighearach]

They aren't deep. The chambers are mostly flooded, but they're not pressurized, and it isn't completely full all the way.

The rock is mostly limestone, so the air doesn't pressurize, and the chambers aren't all completely full. So depth isn't an issue here; a few meters. The problem is more the narrowness of the passages.

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't need to, I already know I'm going to get stuck no matter how much thinking thin I do.

Re:Not sure - Big Flex Pipe?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about little air-filled capsules that take one boy at a time, attached to a cable , and gets towed out?

Re:Good grief

[Train0987]

The site that portrayed Bill Gates as a Borg for years?

Re:Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot is a cesspool these days because of corporate whores and bootlickers who are convinced that their billionaires couldn't possibly be as selfish and deceptive as those other, evil billionaires.

What can Musk offer?

[Bruce Perens]

The problem here is that Thailand does not necessarily have the world's best cave rescue team, and has to accept charitable help. So, what can Elon Musk provide? 1) Lots and lots of money. Need equipment, it's going to be there. Need to fly a team from the US there, keep them housed and fed, and pay them? Done. 2) Influence. If there's only one expert or piece of equipment in the whole world, and you need it, Musk is a good person to make the connection and sign financial guarantees. 3) Expertise. They really have been drilling a tunnel through LA, and probably do have some equipment for precise location. Whether this works in a wet, natural cave is unknown.

Re: What can Musk offer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Basically, the only thing musk is good for is his money?

That about sums it up. Glad you agree with us Bruce.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[Train0987]

Thai Navy divers and a specialist rescue team from the UK are the ones who found them. Now Musk wants to ride in on his white horse with the media in tow.

Re: What can Musk offer?

[Calydor]

His money, his connections, and the technologies and expertise of his company. Did you expect him to put on a wetsuit himself and swim in to teach the kids how to go deep diving so they can get out?

Re:What can Musk offer?

[Bruce Perens]

Well, since the specialist rescue team from the UK can't get them out, it may be that Musk can really help. Precise location and then drilling - and making sure that opening a new hole isn't going to make the water rise or using an airlock to prevent that from happening - are now called for.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[PolygamousRanchKid]

3) Expertise.

3.1) Erect a big car-production-line sized tent over the area to shield it from monsoon rains flooding the caves. How big is Thailand, in the size-of-Wales units . . . ?

3.2) Use flamethrowers to boil the water and dry out the caves.

4) Musk can maybe provide patience. It doesn't seem that there are any quick and easy solutions. I remember a mine accident in South America, where it took three months to dig them out via an escape hole. Musk has gotten patience from his Tesla investors. Maybe he can convince the world that they will just need to be patient and wait for a safe rescue method . . . ?

Re:What can Musk offer?

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

Musk will walk out of there with a $1M "feasibility study" contract to develop a white paper saying how a subway built by the Boring Company would provide the ideal solution to his mark's problem within 5-10 years.

e.g., https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/04/the-latest-hyperloop-feasibility-study-aims-to-connect-cleveland-and-chicago/

Re: What can Musk offer?

[Train0987]

Musk knows about as much about underwater cave rescue as you or I. The difference is we aren't pretending to so we can get more press coverage.

Re: What can Musk offer?

[Calydor]

Well sure, he doesn't. But you know what the thing is about being a good boss? You don't have to know everything - you just need to know who does.

And that is exactly what he's doing here.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[Kjella]

It's some boys in a cave in a country with a GDP of $400 billion that have hit top international headlines, I'm pretty sure Thailand won't let cost be an issue. The rest sounds like the plot for Armageddon, you're the one person who can save us through your drilling skills. Oh please... this is just Musk getting high on his own savior-complex, there's nothing they need him for.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[guruevi]

Not true though, expert cave rescue and diver teams from Australia and SEALS are involved, I'm sure the US military has offered assistance as well. The main problem is not willpower or money, it's the physics of the thing.

You're talking about pumping out the water collected by a giant mountain chain during the local rain season, and diving in a cave where barely one person can fit through on foot. Experts can get stuff in-and-out and they may have to live there for the foreseeable future with divers ferrying back and forth food, clothing and waste until the next season when stuff dries up. They're currently draining 1.6M liters of water per hour just so they won't drown and the levels are anticipated to rise every time it rains.

Drilling through the mountain is hard, dangerous and unpredictable, GPS doesn't work there so you're trying to triangulate based on external and internal measurements of the cave itself, a giant boring machine would perhaps drill between 5 and 20m per day depending on what material everything is made out of, but you also risk collapsing the cave, it will cost $1-5M/day to run and they're by most estimates ~3km away, that's 5 months of drilling.

Re: What can Musk offer?

[Train0987]

The best in the world are already there. Musk is just chasing a spotlight he saw.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[Train0987]

The best experts in the world haven't figured it out yet... Sounds like a job for Elon Musk and his Twitter machine!

Re:What can Musk offer?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that ongoing rainfall increases the water levels in the cave. Elon Musk can't provide anything to help with that, unless he can somehow stop rainfall. Can your American heroes stop rainfall?

FYI they are already actively pumping water out of the cave, have two of the world's foremost experts on cave diving there (they're not a "team from the US"), and have begun instructing the boys on cave diving to proceed getting them out.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[Martin S.]

Cave diving rescue is a very rarefied skill.

Cave diving is extremely dangerous activity. It is far more dangerous than sport or commercial scuba diving. It requires much more skill and experience. It requires planning, guide line laying, logistic placement of air supplies. It is highly specialised.

While the Thia SEALs are undoubtedly highly trained and brave; cave diving requires a rare combination of extremely demand skills and mental strength. If you run into trouble, surfacing is just not an option.

The British Cave Rescue team involved in this has published some factual press releases about their activity.

https://www.caverescue.org.uk/...

Re:What can Musk offer?

[lazarus]

Uh okay. Except he was approached to help and said that he suspected that the Thai government had it under control:

"Elon Musk has said he is “happy to help” with the rescue of the Thai soccer team currently stuck in a cave.

The Tesla CEO was asked by a Twitter user if he could provide a helping hand with the recovery of the 12 boys and their coach who have been stuck in a Thai cave for nearly two weeks, and Musk replied in the affirmative a few hours later.

I suspect that the Thai govt has this under control, but I’m happy to help if there is a way to do so
— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) July 4, 2018"

He *may* be getting high on his savior complex, but he was asked for help, he responded that he would but that he didn't think the Thai government needed it, and then you took to Slashdot.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[Bruce Perens]

Well, consider that Musk is a stand-in for the United States. If Obama were president, he would have offered any sort of help, and made it happen. Trump doesn't exactly inspire confidence, whether you like his policies or not - he's still a non-reader, blowhard buffoon, not the sort of person you'd call on for help when a bunch of boys are trapped in a cave.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[rmdingler]

It took 58 hours to bore 22 feet to save Baby Jesica in 1987.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Come on, Elon, give 'em the Iron Man suits, we know you got 'em.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a little too deep in the left wing thought system.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[nmo.marques]

You are right in most of that but there are other issues that might lead a country in need to refuse. For example the chain of command and how such means (human) integrate the onfoing efforts. Unfortunatly it becomes a 'gamble'. People taking decisions consider a lot more than just the good will.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Trump already sent the US Navy to assist a week or two ago.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Well, consider that Musk is a stand-in for the United States.
He's South African, dumbass.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[ElizabethGreene]

> Can your American heroes stop rainfall?

China might be able to, actually. They have a fair amount of experience with weather modification. If they could drop the rain the air reached the area...

Re:What can Musk offer?

[Bruce Perens]

And I'm Russian, if you go back to my grandfather. Elon naturalized after a 5-year residency and is a U.S. citizen.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[Anonymous Coward]

+1 For reference to the original.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[ChrisMaple]

For a very rough approximation, the volume of fuel required to boil water is 1/10 the volume of the water. That's a lot of fuel, and would cook the children after asphyxiating them.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[tehcyder]

Use flamethrowers to boil the water and dry out the caves.

Why not a small nuclear bomb?

It's only marginally more insane.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[Anonymous Coward]

It was a reference to this:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/elon-musk-donald-trump-dumbass/

We are all multiple something elses, or much the same should you choose to go back far enough. And yet all quite different. So there seems to be little value in speculating on what a former President may have done with boys trapped in a cave, whilst he did nothing about people trapped in Guantanamo, dissing your actual President on the basis of something he has nothing to do with, and talking about a private individual naturalized for 5 years as representing the US when he simply commented on a situation he was asked about.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the best experts can't figure it out exactly what does it hurt, besides your incessant whining, to let him try to come up with an out of the box solution. Even if that solution is just to throw money at it.

Why do you hate Elon enough to want to prevent him from helping those boys?

Re: What can Musk offer?

[Anonymous Coward]

The best in the world are already there. Musk is just chasing a spotlight he saw.

Or he is simply replying to people who asked him for assistance.

Even if he did NOT want to help the politics of the situation would pretty much demand that he say yes.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry Bruce, but 1) the technology used by the Boring Company in LA is totally different to that required for high precision locational drilling to reach these kids. 2) ground penetrating radar has been mentioned but that is depth limited to around 60ft max and these kids are 800-1,000 ft underground. 3) I doubt that the caves have ever been accurately surveyed in 3 dimensions and there is absolutely no chance of surveying given the current underground conditions, therefore drilling to the kids is a non starter. 4) everybody recognises the visibility issues, but misses the fact that the conditions also include fast flowing and turbid, muddy conditions.

As an experienced tunneller and diver I personally think the only short to medium term chance the kids have of getting out is if they deploy some seriously large scale slurry de-watering pumps. These will only come from the oil industry not from Tesla. If Musk can help all kudos to him, but from my point of view it just looks like he's grandstanding and publicity seeking.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well after throwing himself in the mix on others (PR Hurricane) his fanboys now ask him when something happens.

He doesn't have to be the one running in say "You need a spaceship? I can build a spaceship. SPACESHIP!". He's got others to do that and just gets to ride the wave of media attention anytime something bad happens because he has batteries. My 10 year old would love him, never another dead controller.

Re:What can Musk offer?

[Anonymous Coward]

1.6M litres per hour is not enough to dewater the caves as proven. That's only 444 l/s. I've worked in mines where we've hit individual fissures in limestone where the water flows were 10,000 l/s.

Regarding drilling, you wouldn't use a giant boring machine, but 500-800mm diameter directional drilling rigs. In soft limestone, I would be surprised if they didn't achieve 200m /day. But you need to know accurately in 3 dimensions where the kids are and that's a current no go.

They key to getting the kids out is employing large slurry pumps, that can spit out 5-10m3/sec and seriously reduce water levels. These would need to be heavy lift helicoptered into the remote cave site together with the requite diesel generators required to power them. Then you minimise the lengths where diving is required, to just the natural sumps, that are much easier than navigating a fully flooded cave.

Re: What can Musk offer?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know you and so many others on slashdot love to hatefap over Musk... he was asked on Twitter if he'd help and he literally said "I suspect that the Thai govt has this under control, but I’m happy to help if there is a way to do so". Do correct me if there is anything wrong with responding and saying "I think you've got this handled, but I'm here to help if there's a way I can".

Re: What can Musk offer?

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect that the Thai govt has this under control, but I’m happy to help if there is a way to do so
— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) July 4, 2018"

He was asked.
I think the guy is a bit of a jabrony, but lets keep it founded in reality and not just regurgitate each others filth without checking it out ourselves first.

Re:Good grief

[Train0987]

Then why not just help instead of Tweeting and then having his PR people contact the press about it?

Re:Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

What a horrible way of achieving publicity .... by helping people! What is the world coming to? This is how it starts ... start showing compassion (instead of saying "what's the profit for me") and the next thing you know the US will end up with universal heathcare or some such blasphemy.

Re:Good grief

[rojash]

Haha...after saying this he tails it like the fucking coward he is. Im no fan of his either. Whoever offers to help, be it for fame or whatever, who cares, lives are at stake here you moron!

WTF was a soccer team doing in a cave?

[Anonymous Coward]

is there some Thai Cave Soccer Division or it's just customary for children's soccer teams to go spelunking in underwater cave systems

Re:WTF was a soccer team doing in a cave?

[Bruce Perens]

is there some Thai Cave Soccer Division or it's just customary for children's soccer teams to go spelunking in underwater cave systems

I got led into a cave during a river trip down the Stanislaus. This trip was in a low-water year, the Stanislaus is behind the New Melones dam, and it's flooded most of the time - just like this cave. It's just something people do for fun. Sometimes, they don't understand the risk and get in over their heads.

Re: Love him

[Anonymous Coward]

LUL.

Musk is tweeting. He isn't doing shit. If he wanted to help he would have went there in person and offered assistance.

Re:Good grief

[rojash]

What makes you think he can just land there and help a government? There is protocol, numbnuts.

Re:Love him

[Anonymous Coward]

the detractors are more-than-likely hyper-capitalists trying to swing markets to gain off of short positions, or those who they have triggered to this this for them.

I really doubt that any "socialists" would complain about the very wealthy donating money for the public good...

Just sayin...

Re: Love him

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't; he hasn't finished the Arc Reactor to power his suit yet.

Huh?

[lengel]

"could help by trying to locate the boys' precise location using Space Exploration Technologies or Boring Co. technology"

They found them days ago in that one chamber high above the flood water. How exactly will he help find their "precise" location?

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd guess that when you want to bore a rescue hole and have it exit above water and close enough to be useful, knowing exactly where falling rocks won't kill anyone might matter.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

GPS u moran.

Re:Huh?

[Train0987]

Miners and tunnel diggers have been doing that successfully for more than a century.

Re:Huh?

[Solandri]

Drilling tunnels goes faster if you can drill from both sides at the same time. But doing so requires precise positioning and alignment so that the two ends of the tunnel will meet in the middle. If they opt to drill a tunnel down into the chamber from the top of the mountain, they first need to precisely locate the position of the lost team inside the mountain. And a company experienced in drilling tunnels from both sides is exactly what you want for that task.

Re: Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's an idea.

But why above the water level
If a smaller hole was drilled from below the water level wouldn't that drain the cave more efficiently.

Re: Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

GPS doesn't work without view of the sky

Re:Huh?

[Train0987]

Or any mining team from the past 100 years. The world, especially Thailand needs Elon Musk's expertise in this!

"Thailand is one of the leading producers of tin, gypsum, feldspar and cement in the world. Other mineral resources of the country include coal, natural gas and petroleum. The country also has abundant reserves of zinc, iron, gold and copper." https://www.azomining.com/Arti...

Re:Huh?

[iggymanz]

Knowing how to navigate tunnels to find something is a very different thing from knowing the coordinates of the location. Boring from the surface requires the latter.

Re: Huh?

[chadenright]

Possibly. Or it might just get clogged with silt while monsoon rains continue to add new water to the system. The goal of drilling a hole wouldn't be to drain the water, it'd be to create a tunnel the kids can climb out.

Re:Huh?

[ChrisMaple]

An inertial navigation system accurate to a couple of meters over the hours it would take to drag it to the boys from the diver's entrance would do the job. I don't know if such equipment exists in a compact, ruggedized, pressure-proof form.

Re:Huh?

[Hognoxious]

Slight flaw with your plan, Professor Armchair: drilling from both sides would require getting a drilling machine inside the cave.

Re:Huh?

[Hognoxious]

When they did Crossrail in London they did it by dead-reckoning.

Nobody under 30 can wipe their arse without GPS.

Re:Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

Calling up your buddy at Bloomberg to run a fluff piece is part of that protocol?

The world must look awfully strange looking up at it while tonguing the soles of Elon's shoes.

Re:Love him

[Mr D from 63]

I saw the only comments so far and as usual they are fuck Musk. Sorry, but I love the guy. This might be a press thing but who gives a fuck. If you are in a position to help with the top tech out there and offer help, then that is ABSOLUTELY GREAT. I hate these fucking socialist fucktards on here lately hating everything someone with money or tech does for others. It's not a bad thing if everyone is helped out in the end. Go screw yourselves instead assholes.

I wonder how many other people or organizations with resources are also offering help but not tweeting about it. The divers risking their lives to get in there don't appear to be tweeting about it.

Re:Good grief

[Train0987]

Where does his Twitter account and PR department contacting Bloomberg fit into that protocol. Interesting that they chose an investment site to leak this to.

Re:Love him

[Anonymous Coward]

Just imagine everyone in this thread holding the exact opposite position if it were Trump tweeting and not actually doing anything instead of Elon.

My billionaire aristocrat can beat up your billionaire aristocrat!

Re:Love him

[Bruce Perens]

The Musk haters are not socialists. They are proxies for the short-sellers. The short-sellers are capitalists, a particular ugly amoral kind, who wish not simply to profit from someone else's misfortune but to cause that misfortune by pushing the stock down with fabricated bad publicity.

Last time Musk sent help

[Anonymous Coward]

Documentary of the last time Musk sent his Boring company to help!

Re:Love him

[PrimaryConsult]

I want to be supportive of this, but if it's anything like his grandiose schemes to fix Puerto Rico's power problems, it's going to be a lot of talk and no action, or at best "a day late and a dollar short".

Re:Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

That is a very engaging story that you entirely made up to reconcile these thoughts with your worldview that Elon Musk is billionaire Jesus.

Elon, rescue Tesla first

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

I am still waiting for the 35K car for the masses, and you are rescuing hospitals in Puerto Rico, power grids in southern australia, soccer teams lost in caves in thailand.... Come one Elon, rescue Tesla first. SeeekingAlpha.com and MarketInsider.com are killing it.

Re:Elon, rescue Tesla first

[iggymanz]

they make a $35K model, that is causing Tesla losses.

might as well do something useful as they circle the drain.

the big auto makers will make $35K car profitably, not Tesla.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re: Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

More like a billionaire Genghis Khan than Jesus but don't let being poor make you bitter or anything.

Re:Good grief

[Bruce Perens]

Paid resentful rage actors. Their job is to manipulate social networks for the interest of whoever pays them, whether that is short-sellers, Russia, oil companies, gasoline car manufacturers, the list goes on. For decades there have been PR companies that do not only positive but negative publicity, with the advent of the Internet this just expanded to include paid trolls.

Re:Good grief

[vtcodger]

It seems to me like an oilfield services company like Halliburton or Schlumberger -- folks with decades of experience drilling holes -- might have more to offer. But what the hell, once you get past the narcissism and apparently somewhat casual attitude toward the truth, Musk isn't stupid and his projects generally seem reasonably well planned and not prima facia crazed. And unlike some other narcissistic sociopaths one might mention, Musk actually does have some knowledge of technologies that might be useful.

Re:Love him

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe Trump can go to Thailand and throw some paper towels at the boys...

As far as Musk in Puerto Rico goes, the company is currently working on a staggering 11,000 projects in the area.

Re:Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

For decades there have been PR companies that do not only positive but negative publicity

So how much are they paying you?

Re:To help children? Try here's first!

[Anonymous Coward]

THEN DONT CUME HERE ILLEGALLY

Re:Love him

[Train0987]

The US Navy is actually assisting. They aren't tweeting about it either.

Re:Love him

[Train0987]

Blaming Musk skeptics on short-sellers is not a good look. Cult-like, in fact. Short sellers aren't the ones making Musk a liar, he's done that all by himself.

Re:Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

Im a huge fan of Bruce Perens. He invented the BruceBox and its such a fantastic contribution.

Also fuck to GR SECURITY. Bruce Perens is the realest nicca.

Re: Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

Bill gates as Borg is due to the anticompetitive acts Microsoft committed at the turn of the Millenium. What's your beef with Elon? That he's a CEO who boasts about his own organizations? Every CEO does. It's their Job. That he took tax payer money to make electric cars or private space industry? The US political climate has been asking for more of those for years with CAFE standards and climate accords, taxes on carbon, etc... and with contracts at better rates than competitors provide in terms of access to space.

Fuck off if you are just jealous. Otherwise, state a real gripe.

Re:Love him

[Anonymous Coward]

the company is currently working on a staggering 11,000 projects in the area.

Stagger, verb: to falter or begin to give way

Seems accurate.

Re: Good grief

[Train0987]

My "beef with Elon" is that he lies a lot to pump his stock and that an awful lot of tax dollars are spent inflating his ego.

Re:Love him

[Bruce Perens]

Teslas that aren't delivered in Silicon Valley are loaded onto rail cars for trans-shipping right near where I live. I can tell you first-hand they are shipping what they said they'll produce. I was also at the Falcon Heavy launch and landing, and a Falcon 9 one at Vandenberg. The guy does what he says he will.

Re: New Company

[Anonymous Coward]

No no no
Suckers Co

Woah! calm it down there

[fireylord]

Rather than get on your high horse mister AC, try this on for size: If any product that Musk's companies have made can help to either save those children's lives, or get them out quicker and more safely then he should get them sent over. Playing your favourite game of Musk Hating (tm) is not for this situation. They're children. Their lives are in urgent danger. Take yourself outside and have a stern word with yourself

Re:Woah! calm it down there

[Rei]

Specifically, what was offered was ground-penetrating radar they've been developing with Boring Company and an airdropped crate of powerpacks and high-powered pumps.

But it wasn't Musk who started this conversation. Someone asked him on Twitter, and his initial response was that he would if he could but he didn't know exactly how he could be of help, and that he presumes that the Thai authorities are on top of the situation.

Re:Woah! calm it down there

[Aighearach]

Their lives are not in urgent danger. They've been located, and none of them have serious injuries or problematic medical conditions. They can't pump all the water out of the caves to let them walk out, but they can pump out enough water to keep them safe where they are. They can bring food in.

One alternative they're considering is to just leave them there for a few months; obviously an unpleasant choice, but perhaps not the biggest challenge they'll face in their lives. It is their comfort, and the comfort of their parents, that they're working to save now.

Re:Woah! calm it down there

[fireylord]

Have you actually read the reports of incoming heavy rain, and monsoons? And the fact that we do not know if they can keep the floodwaters in the cave complex low enough to keep them alive? Do we know if their air supply is going to hold? A diver died returning from resupplying them a few hours ago. Resupplying them for months could well be at the cost of a loss of lives of the people trained well enough and with enough experience to get to/from them in these situations. How many lives of divers do you think it'll take to keep them resupplied? This isnt Scuba diving off the reefs, there's only a finite number of people available, if most of them lose their lives who is going to go in instead? This is not a done deal in terms of saving them by any stretch of the imagination, heavy rain is apparently coming tomorrow. How many hours before this happens does it become urgent?

Re: Woah! calm it down there

[fireylord]

Do you have an issue with saving lives? Have these people transgressed in your eyes enough to earn death? The fact that these are children means nothing to you? If someone has anything that can help, you're with the AC thinking that because it's Musk (for all his many-many faults) that screw him and if he happens to be able to assist they should say no 'because he's Elon Musk' then really? Think before spamming reaction one liners that you think earn you imaginary internet points maybe.

Re:Woah! calm it down there

[rkhalloran]

They had thought to provision them in-place until the rainy season subsided, but more rains are expected, the pumps there now may be unable to keep up with the additional water, at which point the pocket they're in will become flooded as well. Most divers agree cave diving is risky at the best of times and with experience (one experienced diver has already died trying to position air tanks along the exit route to potentially bring the kids out), and many of these kids are non-swimmers to begin with. WIth the current situation the only available hope may be to "dive them out" tethered to other divers, for roughly a five-hour trek, changing tanks enroute. This doesn't sound promising.... If Musk can either help locate another route out with radar, help power additional pumps with a battery wall to at least keep up with the new rains, or bore an escape route, then I for one say good luck and godspeed.

Re:Woah! calm it down there

[haruchai]

Their lives are not in urgent danger. They've been located, and none of them have serious injuries or problematic medical conditions. They can't pump all the water out of the caves to let them walk out, but they can pump out enough water to keep them safe where they are. They can bring food in.

One alternative they're considering is to just leave them there for a few months; obviously an unpleasant choice, but perhaps not the biggest challenge they'll face in their lives. It is their comfort, and the comfort of their parents, that they're working to save now.

Circumstances can change quickly, especially in monsoon season.
Oxygen levels are down to 15% so there's a real risk of hypoxia and one of the Navy divers who was delivering air tanks has died

Re:Woah! calm it down there

[Aighearach]

The oxygen level isn't a real problem. The caves are porous, air comes back in. The lower parts of the caves are not flooded, and are full of army officers standing around being in charge, even though they're not divers and not doing anything. How much oxygen they can pump in determines how many people they can let stand around. But they're piping it in, they're almost done with the last section of piping and then they can all stand around until the end.

A (former Navy) diver died, but we know nothing about it other than that. Thai people do not share the western concepts of the importance of honesty in reporting; when reporting on a death, they value formalized politeness and they're not accustomed to thinking about the value to society in sharing accurate details. The statement from his partner doesn't paint a clear picture; they were supposed to be diving in pairs, but his partner found him already unconscious? And that is the whole statement, other than that chest compressions were performed. So maybe they were assigned partners, but actually diving alone and the partner was just somebody assigned to the same area? Or perhaps he got lost, and since that might make him look bad, and he just died, they don't want to say it. But without the details, we can't assess if it implies dangers that the kids would face.

If you've ever seen the traffic in Thailand, you'd understand the level of danger to life that Thai people are used to casually accepting. Just because somebody died, that doesn't imply to me there is an unavoidable danger, only that there is a danger that is deadly if not avoided.

Also, they've pumped out the sections of water from about 2 miles of tunnel, (it wasn't flooded the whole way, just certain spots that bar passage) there is only about a mile now from the last flooded section to where the boys are stuck. They might actually walk out, and this week. Next week is when the rainy season normally would start; they may or may not be able to pump enough water out before then for them to walk out. Otherwise, there is only one narrow section left where they would have to pass through alone. That's also the lowest point, and the more they pump out the less dangerous that section is.

Re:Woah! calm it down there

[Train0987]

There's a flip side to that. If Musk rolls on in his white horse and any of those kids end up dying he's going to get the blame (right or not).

Re:Woah! calm it down there

[Aighearach]

They've pumped the water out of 2/3rds of what was flooded already. There are not "incoming heavy rains," but there likely will be next week.

You're at least right that we have a information differential.

The diver that died was delivering tanks to stockpile along the route, was supposed to be with a partner, but was not. That is expected of Thai divers. How many will die over the next couple months I'd expect to be about the same number as if they were driving the same number of hours on Thai highways, to be honest. It would be a non-zero number for sure. And if there were an equal number of western divers working the same number of hours, they wouldn't have any deaths; for the same reasons that driving on a highway in the UK is fairly safe.

But that said, they don't have a need to continuously stockpiling air tanks after they've placed them. For ongoing air needs they're running pipes. They're almost done, too.

Re:Woah! calm it down there

[fireylord]

There is an imminent threat (which appears to have been today reiterated that they are expecting this to start tomorrow) from more rain flooding the area of the caves they are in ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/wor... paragraph 8) he was delivering air tanks TO the area they are trapped in ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/wor... paragraph) , because the air in the cave complex section they are trapped in is running short of oxygen so this is something which they may have to increase the rate of ( same article, paragraph 6). In short, things are not looking exactly rosy. I stand by saying they're in imminent danger.

Re: Woah! calm it down there

[Anonymous Coward]

So, what was "offered" vaporware in exchange for a photo op. Typical Musk, ever the scam lord.

Re:Woah! calm it down there

[haruchai]

Remember what I said about circumstances changing quickly in monsoon season?
Here's an update from 1 hour ago

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/07...
"By Steve George, CNN

Updated 12:33 PM ET, Sat July 7, 2018"

"Earlier in the week, efforts to lower the water levels had generated an air of optimism. During a press conference Thursday, one Thai official suggested that the kids may even be able to "walk out."

Such hopes have now vanished, replaced instead with a mounting sense of urgency. People at the large makeshift camp that now surrounds the caves liken the mood to that of a hostage situation.
Dark clouds drift ominously overhead. Weather forecasters predict heavy rains Saturday evening and throughout the week.
The chamber in which the boys are located is no longer thought safe. Even if they are given enough food to wait out the rainy season, there is no guarantee that the ledge they are sitting on will not be submerged.
There are no easy decisions. But with the flood waters expected to rise in the coming days, a decision will have to be made soon.
"The teams there will have a tipping point where they have to make that call to bring them out. To leave them there would almost certainly result in them drowning," said one British mining engineer and experienced cave diver, who did not wish to be named due to the sensitivity of the subject."

Re:Woah! calm it down there

[Aighearach]

So now that half of them have been rescued it has come out that they began the rescue when they did not only because heavy rains were starting, but also because they had pumped most of the water out and there is only one section with a difficult dive, and the rest are only short dives between longer walking sections.

You're really misunderstanding the parts about oxygen levels. You read the part at the start, but you didn't find the more detailed information later in the story.

Authorities say there are concerns about falling oxygen levels in the chamber where the boys and their coach are trapped.

Oxygen was being depleted by the large number of people working inside the cave network, said the Chiang Rai Governor, Narongsak Osotthanakorn.

Authorities are now working to get a 5km (3 mile) cable into the cave to supply the group with air. They are also trying to feed a fibre optic cable through to the group, to connect them to their families for the first time in nearly two weeks.

See, the falling oxygen levels aren't a danger to the kids directly, it is just that the people in charge have to manage how many people they let in, and they manage that by letting in as many "as they can." Of course they're at the limit of the oxygen; that is how Thai authorities manage any type of emergency situation. Of course they keep letting military officers into the cave to stand around and look important, they're not to the absolute limit yet! But they're installing a pipe to increase the number of people that can stand around. They don't manage a crisis the way we do in the west, so it is easy to glance at the BBC and get confused; but the story uses subtle language, like in paragraph 6 where it says "there are mounting concerns about the oxygen level in the chamber." That does NOT mean there is an imminent danger; it doesn't say that. All it says is that there are concerns, and that they're "mounting," which only tells you that the concern is strong enough that they're taking an action; and later it says what the action is, installation of pipes. These chose the specific phrase "mounting concerns" rather than something "imminent danger" for reasons; the level of concern expressed in the words is supposed to imply the details, where they don't have verified details. They don't want to feed you conjecture as fact, instead they offer it as implication so you can draw your own conclusions. But you don't trust their words to be the correct strength; and yet, you rely on them being an authority to support your own conjectures.

The caves are limestone. Even a chamber that appears totally enclosed to humans is porous and lets through plenty of air for the people trapped. If the rock was granite, there would already be deadly pockets in the cave system without oxygen, you wouldn't be able to go in very far without bringing air!

That exact story is the one that informed the comment you relied, BTW. So you could have simply re-read it more closely when you saw my comment.

Re:Woah! calm it down there

[Hognoxious]

The diver that died was delivering tanks to stockpile along the route, was supposed to be with a partner, but was not. That is expected of Thai divers.

Slur a brave dead man and his entire nation - and be utterly wrong to boot. Nice one.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world...

"The diver died after losing consciousness in one of the passageways, said Passakorn Boonyaluck, deputy governor of the Chiang Rai region, where the cave is situated.

"His job was to deliver oxygen. He did not have enough on his way back," Mr Passakorn said.

He said that Saman's dive partner tried to revive him but could not, and his body was brought out of the cave."

Re:Woah! calm it down there

[Aighearach]

If it is a slur to be honest about a person's job when the media is mis-representing it, fine.

You've been on this site a long time, I already know you're not intelligent enough to comprehend that it is an insult to all the real Navy SEALs who have died on the job, and die during training.

You're quoting a small section of a news report without understanding if it is a literal report or not. You're not understanding what is being communicated. They're not attempting to give you details of his death, they're telling you the general type of job assignment his team was doing, and they're telling you that his partner attempted CPR. That's all they've told us.

And he wouldn't have been delivering the same oxygen that he himself was using; he didn't die from selflessly giving up too much of his own oxygen or something like that. We don't know why he died; if the thing you thought was informative was actually giving details, it would mean that he died because he screwed up the math that beginning divers have to learn. I highly doubt that was what happened; though I guess it is possible.

People don't even seem to consider; which of these mistakes would make him look bad to other divers? Would telling people he's some sort of Special Forces, even though he's from a country that doesn't deploy its military internationally and hasn't fought a major war in hundreds of years make him look good, or look bad, to actual Special Forces soldiers?

IMO it denigrates the service and sacrifice of these teams of (mostly former) elite Thai military divers to misrepresent their service; and further, it is mostly being misrepresented to make a bunch of military officers look more important than they are. That's the same reason why the ambulances have to drive slow to get past a bunch of jerks in uniforms standing in the street who stand there with their backs to the ambulance even as it trying to pass them!

Re:Woah! calm it down there

[Aighearach]

LOL nope.

Are you still supporting this comment, or do you acknowledge you were full of shit, and the rescue went ahead because they got the water levels low enough?

They walked most of the way out, in actual fact, using SCUBA gear in certain sections, and they've been clear that they were able to go ahead with this plan because of the lower water levels.

Also, the camp that the media were in wasn't even the same camp as the rescuers. Media only had brief access to the command area (inside the caves) for photographs.

Re:Woah! calm it down there

[haruchai]

Neither you, Elon, the Thai Navy nor I control the weather.
They rightly took advantage of the lull in the rains once they managed pump out sufficient water.
If it had gone the other way and the monsoon rains had hit full force, either the boys would be dead or they would have to play the months-long waiting game.

Re: Good grief

[c6gunner]

How much is "an awful lot"? Can you quantify that, and detail what exactly it was spent on?

Re:Love him

[theskipper]

It's a time-honored tradition for companies that ended up with a "Q" at the end of their symbol to have blamed the media and shorts for their declining stock price along the way. But in the end all that mattered is what the 10-Q/Ks said.

Having said that, the borrow rate is not flashing any serious warning signs yet, it's pretty low at sub-2% (and plenty of shares available). And the massive option premiums are inline with the extreme vol of the underlying.

However the really concerning thing is that the CDS probability blowing out to 40% is saying that the shorts are definitely right about the financial health/prospects of the company, and (ime) these usually resolve to default quicker than most anticipate:
https://twitter.com/Sunchartis...

Re: Good grief

[c6gunner]

Yes, tweeting something is now considered "leaking it to Blomberg".

What a wonderful mind you have ...

Re: Good grief

[ArchieBunker]

Well for one thing Tesla isn't making any profits.

Re: Good grief

[Train0987]

$4.9 billion in subsidies as of three years ago, and still counting.

"Tesla Motors Inc., SolarCity Corp. and Space Exploration Technologies Corp., known as SpaceX, together have benefited from an estimated $4.9 billion in government support, according to data compiled by The Times. The figure underscores a common theme running through his emerging empire: a public-private financing model underpinning long-shot start-ups."

http://www.latimes.com/busines...

Solarcity is winding down now, by the way. He hid his ownership interest and then had Tesla shareholders bail him out by acquiring it. Now they are on the hook for Solarcity's billions in debt coming due in a few months.

Re: Good grief

[Rei]

Nor were they supposed to be making profits right now.

They're supposed to be profitable in Q3. Come back here then if they're not.

Re: Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

and how is that different than any other CEO?

Re:Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

he's super cereal

Charitable status is valued in the UK

[Martin S.]

In the UK we have a long tradition rescue organisations being charitable supported and these are generally well supported financially by the public. The bulk of our lifeboats are provided a charity the RNLI, many reserve crews are volunteers. We have many volunteer Mountain, Inland water & Cave Rescue teams.

Re:Charitable status is valued in the UK

[Bruce Perens]

And my kid is a California state-certified search-and-rescue volunteer. I didn't mean to put down volunteer services.

Re:Charitable status is valued in the UK

[Martin S.]

I didn't think you were, I was merely following up your words for the purpose of clarity & transparency over their status.

Really?

[fuzzyf]

Really?
Being a company with stockholders you need to try and benefit from anything that could gain positive PR
So even if you really JUST want to help, you also need to be visible doing it. Because of the way the stockmarked works.
And for all you know, what if they did some initiatives without any PR. Would you know about it to complain?
Lighten up, this is not a bad thing.. for anyone.

Re:Love him

[Anonymous Coward]

sure dipweed, too bad you didn't bother to read to the 2nd definition

astonish or deeply shock.
"I was staggered to find it was six o'clock"
synonyms: amaze, astound, astonish, surprise, startle, stun, confound, dumbfound, stupefy, daze, take aback, leave open-mouthed, leave aghast;

Re:New Company

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

They should incorporate in the Cook Islands for the Country code TLD

Musk is really Jeff Tracy

[Anonymous Coward]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... Thunderbirds are Go!

Re:Love him

[Train0987]

No one is claiming that cars haven't been produced or that rockets haven't flown. The problem is with Musk's lies about volume and the amount of public funding he's squandered in the process, not to mention his self-dealing that's being uncovered now (SolarCity).

By the way there aren't loading Tesla's on rail at their Freemont factory (even though there is a rail hub onsite). For some incredulous reason they are loading them on trucks to be delivered to trains elsewhere. The least efficient way possible. Because Musk is a genius or something.

https://www.trainorders.com/di...

Re: Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry to hear your plan to get rich off bitcoin and shorting tesla stock failed. But you should stop hating on him, he isnt the reason you are momo peckered incel. Have you tried autoerotic asphyxiation? Use a zip tie instead of a rubber band on the bag to really maximize the thrill.

Re: Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

"Well for one thing Tesla isn't making any profits."

Then don't by Tesla stock!
After all, you didn't buy Amazon stock for the same reason when the price was 1/50th of the current one.

Re:Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh go felate another oil company executive.

Re:Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

/.'s been a cesspool for years. Old news & rage nerds ruined it.

Re: Love him

[Anonymous Coward]

It was a joke at the expense of your poor choice in vocab you pedantic moron.

Taking everything someone says at face value is exactly why you schmucks keep getting fooled by Musk.

Re:Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

I suppose you'd like to see his companies advertise (they do not) rather than look for opportunities to earn a positive image. Interesting.

Very few are as good at it as Elon Musk

[raymorris]

> That he's a CEO who boasts about his own organizations? Every CEO does. It's their Job.

Most kinda try, but very few are as good at it as Musk. Most companies don't trade at infinity times earnings, like Tesla does. Typical price to earnings ratio of a well-established, consistently successful company is 20-25 times earnings. Tesla's earnings are *negative*, but it's priced as the most successful car company ever, with billions in profits every year.

  It's valued as the world's largest and most successful car company, while it's actually tiny, less than 1% of the market, and losing money fast.

Musk may be the very best hype man alive today, up there with PT Barnum.

Re:Very few are as good at it as Elon Musk

[saloomy]

That is speculation, and traders are free to speculate on it. Virtually every company in existence has been in "infinity * earnings" territory, BTW. Most companies that aren't generating revenue, and some that never have (think of how many bio companies invent vaccines at huge costs with the hopes of being acquired).

Most people who complain about never making a profit have no idea how stocks operate and should never invest in them. Stick with mutual funds, they know how to handle your money. These are moon-shot companies that aren't focused on quarter-to-quarter profits, and instead are focused on long-term platforms or intellectual property. Profits are not the only way to value a company, as the market has clearly shown with Tesla and Amazon as clear examples.

Re:Very few are as good at it as Elon Musk

[CaptainDork]

Whatever.

Say, did you hear about some kids stranded in a goddam cave?

Re: Very few are as good at it as Elon Musk

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm just glad the kids are Thai. If they were USAian every single media organization would be calling for the arrest of the parents. It would not stop there. People would demand all caves be boarded up, and tracking devices put on all the kids so they could not wander in any caves.

In the Nanny States of America, all kids must live safe soul numbing lives of boredom and safety.
Growing up in Thailand must be a blast. Getting stuck in a cave is something kids used to dream about.

Re:Very few are as good at it as Elon Musk

[Anonymous Coward]

You forget that they are essentially LEADERS in a brand new and still enlarging field: Electric cars. ICE has reached peak penetration. Electric has simply shown the very top of what is the tip of the iceberg. There is a reason every other electric car is billed as the "Tesla Killer". Musk didn't make people buy his stocks. He in fact told people not to. That doesn't fit with your radical belief system so you ignore it. You also ignore that a big reason the stock is valued where it is, is precisely due to the massive amounts of shorts that it has. Shorts are not true buyers. When the stock drops ever, it is not the true Tesla investors selling, it's people who were there pretending to be wallstreet elite.

Did Musk beat you up in highschool or something? Did he cheat on you? What's with the crazy devotion to hating him so passionately? I see his faults, and while I'd love to have a genuine conversation with him about technology and electric vehicles and space travel, I imagine I'd not get along with him personally otherwise. I also don't feel the need to trash everything he ever touches either. Tesla and SpaceX do really cool things, and do it well enough that they force other companies kicking and screaming, to do better. That is awesome to me. I also find it strange that all of this is based on one tweet Musk made *in response* to the question of will he help. He specifically said he doesn't believe he needs to, but if there was anything he could do he would be happy to help. Wow, what an asshole. Offering help if they want it. The utter gall.

Re: Very few are as good at it as Elon Musk

[Hognoxious]

If they were USAian they wouldn't have been able to fit through the entrance

FTFY

Re: Love him

[Type44Q]

Damn; aren't you a sorry-assed motherfucker... thanks for the entertainment. ;)

Sedation versus rescue capsule?

[shanen]

Why am I not surprised that neither of these options has yet been mentioned? Too intuitively obvious to the most casual observer?

There are two basic options now if time is of the essence (and I'm assuming they don't want to sustain this project until October if they don't have to). One is to sedate the kids enough to move them out safely, and the other is to use some kind of rescue capsule that they guide along the ropes.

The drilling option might be viable, but only if they can get the kids to a better location in the caves. The current location would probably take until October or longer for that approach.

No details that I've seen yet, but I'm pert' shure that Musk must be saying the same sorts of things.

Re:Sedation versus rescue capsule?

[istartedi]

It seems like drilling would be a bad idea. Their air pocket might collapse if you drilled into it. There's no practical way to guarantee that the hole stays sealed and pressurized while drilling. When the drill breaks into the chamber, it might suddenly flood all the way to the ceiling with insufficient time for them to get out. It's not like the Chilean mine incident where there was a lot of air below the miners.

Re:Sedation versus rescue capsule?

[shanen]

I'm not certain of this, but I'm pretty sure that they must have air seeping into the place where they are trapped. If they are talking about staying until October, they would use up all the oxygen even in a rather large cave.

Or is it possible they are already planning to pipe in more air before they run out?

Actually, I didn't mention that possibility, but at one I was wondering if they could run pipes past the flooded areas and maybe increase the air pressure inside to help push the water back. I couldn't see any way to use that approach in conjunction with getting the kids out, however.

Re:Sedation versus rescue capsule?

[rally2xs]

A 3/8" flexible air compressor hose, and the 5 HP Sears air compressor out in my garage would do the job.

Re:Sedation versus rescue capsule?

[shanen]

Was that supposed to be some sort of joke? Actually, latest reports are indicating that the quality of the air is becoming a real threat, and you sure aren't going to buy 1,500 meters of hose at your neighborhood Sears. That's just for the longest underwater section... The total is more like 5 clicks.

Re:Sedation versus rescue capsule?

[rally2xs]

They're 2.5 miles in. That's about 13,000 feet. I own 100' of hose myself. Its not that rare or expensive. You could scour the Sears, Lowes, Home Depot, and Harbor Freight stores and come up with that much hose and fitting to connect them together with probably in a single city. Not a big deal, I think.

Re:Sedation versus rescue capsule?

[shanen]

I gotta simpler idea. Since you're such an expert why don't you just swim in and rescue them.

"Discussion" terminated.

Re: Love him

[Type44Q]

... to be delivered to trains elsewhere.

Apparently it didn't occur to you that your elsewhere... might be where he lives.

Keep up the comedy. ;)

Re:Love him

[Bruce Perens]

Teslas are shipped out of Point Richmond. There is a railroad switch yard right next to the factory, but you don't always get the price you want from your next-door neighbor.

Re:To help children? Try here's first!

[Anonymous Coward]

THEN DONT CUME HERE ILLEGALLY

Is it illegal by administration? Twenty centuries ago, authorities claimed that Jesus was illegal. And Jesus did suffer from the claimability of them.

If we think that the "Coming of the Messiah" to U.S. is illegal then the Americans won't receive the Messiah, so they will be doomed religiously.

God, Jesus and children are the same family. In contrary, God can't bless America!!!

If the children are welcome then the Messiah is also welcome.

Re: Good grief

[Nidi62]

You do realize the first people to find the kids were actually British divers, right? And they've been getting support from China, Australia, and many other countries. And Thailand has been very public for that help.

Bore a tunnel, drive them out in a Roadster...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's simple, bore a long tunnel and drive them out in a Tesla Roadster and install a charging station along the way.

Re:New Company

[samwichse]

He should make it a Tesla subsidiary...

Tesla Sucks LTD or whatever.

Reading the comments on Slashdot, there would be a lot of people ready to invest in Tesla Sucks.

Re:Love him

[jwymanm]

No action? And then 11k projects comment below. Example well done of these knee jerk Musk hate comments. WTF are you doing to help PR? Anywhere close to 11k projects? I know they are already running hospitals off of his battery tech and it saved them a large power outage already.

Re:Love him

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you being serious? Tesla is a publicly traded company, can't get any more capitalist than that. Musk is personally worth billions by capitalizing on the work of others. What's it like being numb to reality?

Holed on

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Use his big test noring device to drill down? Is the cave underwater with a pocket? Drilling in from the top would release the air and flood the cave before they could get out.

Re:Holed on

[Peter P Peters]

Use his big test noring device to drill down? Is the cave underwater with a pocket? Drilling in from the top would release the air and flood the cave before they could get out.

Er what? The cave is in the side of a hill. It goes down then up. Water tends to only go down due to gravity, hence it has trickled into the lower parts of the cave sealing the entry. If you drill a hole in the top of the cave it won't force gravity to reverse.

Re:Holed on

[Anonymous Coward]

There are special drills used to rescue miners, which are mostly airtight, with pressurizes "elevator" cabins that can be sent down the hole through airlocks.

Re:Holed on

[Anonymous Coward]

The Quecreek rescue drill team faced exactly this problem. Once the hole was bored all the way though and you were transporting the rescue capsule through it, they knew that the air would rush out since the capsule would not perfectly plug the drill hole. They got around this by constructing an air lock above ground.

Re: Good grief

[Sarten-X]

"...underpinning long-shot start-ups."

That is precisely what subsidies are for.

Subsidies reduce the investment cost (and thereby reduce the risk) of low-return investments that the legislature (or other subsidy-issuing authority) has determined are important for society to pursue.

Time constraint?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it is just the start of the rainy season, do they have a time constraint?
They are in a small chamber with air surrounded by water.
What has the water level done in that pocket before?
Is there any local knowledge?
What have they seen in the last few days?
Is there anyway to look at the walls and ceiling to see if it stays dry or gets flooded?

Hopefully, they have the luxury of time to sort this out, but they may not.
How big of a bag of stuff can they haul in easily?
If they are able to haul bags of stuff in, perhaps they can haul a kid in a bag out?
(The reverse gold fish in a bag plan.)

Probably testable in a pool with some of the kid's friends.

The level of the comments here!

[Anonymous Coward]

Suddenly I see Reddit with a lot more respect...

Congrats to Elon not only for trying to do a Good Thing (TM), but also for being smart as a fox and profit the opportunity to advance his companies skills.

Not to mention that playing Thunderbirds' International Rescue for real is WAY too cool to pass the chance!!

I hope Thai people also seize the opportunity to acquire new techniques to address future similar problems, since they have such geographical features in their country.

After reading about the problem superficially, I too was intrigued about to solve this puzzle. I could only think about building a escape route with some rigid tube segments and bring outside the boys with a cable and an electric motor -- the trip would be quick if the tube can be ensured to be free of water. The device could carry food on the way back to the cave (pulled by another electric motor from the other end).

Or, supposing the cave is safe and not far from the surface, a narrow hole could be drilled thru the cave ceiling. Of course, that can be hard but boring people can do it.

Re:The level of the comments here!

[Anonymous Coward]

Would it be possible to inject air/oxygen into the cave and create a positive pressure to force the water out?

Re:The level of the comments here!

[rally2xs]

That assumes the cave roof is sealed. If it is, fine. If it isn't, those kids are REALLY in trouble since the water could rise further and flood the entire room where they are staying. Drown, no question. They need to get those drills in place and running, fast.

Get focused

[marcusj0015]

They should focus on hitting their 5000 a week target, instead of fucking around half way across the planet on bullshit they know even less about than building cars.

Different between moonshot and moonbase

[raymorris]

> These are moon-shot companies that aren't focused on quarter-to-quarter profits

And there's nothing wrong with that. Here's simplified example of how you value a moonshot company:

Profitbc is the future profit in the best case, if they hit there moonshot.
Probabilitybc is the probability that they hit it.
Years is how long it will take

CurrentValue = Profitbc * Probabilitybc * ([1- (1+r )^-years / 2 ])

That last bit in parentheses is the adjustment for how long it takes. $1,000 twenty years from now isn't worth $1,000 today. That's complicated, though, so for now let's just consider the profit IF Tesla becomes the world's largest, most successful car company, and the likelihood of that happening.

Tesla's current stock valuation makes sense only if you assume a 100% probability that they'll make $20 billion / year. And you don't factor in time - you assume they'll be the world's biggest car company *tomorrow*. In other words, it assumes they will definitely be the most successful car company in history. That's quite a stretch, since they aren't even the most successful *electric* car company.

There's a difference between a moonshot saying "we're going to try to fly to the moon" vs "we've already established a permanent base on the moon, with 1,000 staff working there". Tesla is the former, the stock valuation pretends the latter.

Thunderbirds Are Go!

[chrism238]

Billionaire Elon Musk stars are billionaire Jeff Tracy, directing his sons' race to the rescue in Thunderbird 2 to deliver the Mole...

Re:Thunderbirds Are Go!

[rkhalloran]

Wasn't going to go there, given the gravity of the situation, but if Musk has one of these in his back pocket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... now is the time to get it packed up on TB2 & delivered...

Re: Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

"Tesla has been by far the United States’ leader by collecting $2.4 billion in direct subsidies and over $1 billion in tax abatements since 2007. In addition, its SolarCity subsidiary picked up $1 billion in grants and tax abatements from the State of New York and another $497.5 million in U.S. Treasury Department cash grants."

Re: Good grief

[Zero__Kelvin]

You make a good point. They screwed the pooch on that one. They should have been more accurate and portrayed him as the Antichrist.

Re: Good grief

[Zero__Kelvin]

Do you have any proof of this? I always thought that the whole paid shill thing was just a joke meme. It seems like if this was really a thing we would have more than unsubstantiated accusations to show for it.

Re: Good grief

[Bruce Perens]

I have had PR firms offer me the service, while I've been a corporate officer.

Read the story here. The people who have bought shorts have billions at stake. They are very motivated to pay for this.

Featuring Elon Mask as Walter O'Brien

[Anonymous Coward]

Good luck to Musk, but this one was already solved by Team Scorpion. They drilled a passage from the beach to the cave.

Re: Good grief

[ChrisMaple]

Subsidies reduce the investment cost (and thereby reduce the risk) of low-return investments that the legislature (or other subsidy-issuing authority) has received bribes for or has determined will increase their power and likelihood of continued employment.
FTFY

Re:Fuck off Elon

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure that your whining on the internet will help matters much more.

Re: Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

Do not hate the player, hate the game.

Re: Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

Gore was right on climate change and he invented the Internet. Is Al Gore going to have to choke a bitch?

Re: Good grief

[c6gunner]

$4.9 billion in subsidies as of three years ago, and still counting.

If you had bothered reading the article you linked to you would have seen that the subsidies break down as follows:

1. $750 million to build a solar plant, and $260 million in property tax breaks, on a project which New York state expects to generate 3,000 jobs and replace a Steel factory.
2. $497 million in tax credits for solar installation; a tax break available to ALL solar providers.
3. $1.5 billion in subsidies paid to solar consumers (ie. not paid to Elon or any of his companies).
4. $1.3 billion in undefined "incentives" to build a battery factory - probably also composed of tax-breaks intended to support an extremely profitable venture which will greatly benefit Nevada (later in the story they point out that Nevada expects to get back $100 billion in "economic impact").
5. $517 million from collecting "environmental credits" from competitors. This is not "taxpayer money".
6. $20 million in yet more undefined subsidies for a launch facility; again, a great deal for Texas given the profitability of SpaceX.

Now, the original claim was that "an awful lot of tax dollars are spent inflating his ego", and, to support this claim, you linked to a jumbled mass of programs totalling $4.9 billion. Out of that $4.9 billion, we can discount $1.5 immediately since it was given to consumers as part of a larger solar subsidy which has nothing to do with Elon. That leaves $3.4 billion. We can further subtract the $497 million given to Tesla because, again, these are programs available to (and used by) all solar providers. We are down to $2.9 billion.

We can also take out the $517 million taken from competitors because ... well, don't be stupid. Now we have $2.4 billion.

Of that $2.4 billion, $750 million is being used to construct a facility which the government will own. So that's about $1.6 billion left.

So the actual amount of money, according to your own source, which is being spent specifically to "inflate his ego" is about $1.6 billion ... and, again according to your own source, almost all of this money is composed of tax breaks rather than direct spending. Tax breaks which, according to the government, should stimulate the economy to the tune of $100 billion over 2 decades.

Quelle horreur.

200+ posts and no mention of drones

[Anonymous Coward]

submarine drones to carry the oxygen tanks

A former Navy SEAL died today, ran out of oxygen in the caves.

first death reported

[Anonymous Coward]

It was just reported that one of the rescuers died on the return trip after delivering oxygen. no simple solution to this one for sure.

Re: Love him

[Anonymous Coward]

"obvious troll is cool" - nobody ever

Its the simple things in life

[Kuruk]

Like air, food and water.

Elon not boring a hole anytime soon. If divers can reach them then it keep them alive and remove them one by one if needed.

Not like the divers got in and out.

Re: Good grief

[Aighearach]

If all you ever do is "pump," and you never "dump," what is the problem? Your complaint is that he tries to make his company look good, or make the stock look like a good buy? You thought that was bad? What?

You don't seem to understand the situations where the word "pump" is used in relation to securities.

Re: Good grief

[Aighearach]

But surely even you can comprehend that they're making a whole boatload of revenue, with a pretty normal business model that leads to big profits after they stop making huge capital investments to build factories... right?

Re: Good grief

[Aighearach]

I always thought that the whole paid shill thing was just a joke meme.

Others things to look into now that you've made it to the surface: fresh-baked pizza, real flowers, and sunshine.

Re: Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

Shut the fuck up you ignorant douchebag.

Quiet Marge, Elon is a good digger!

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yes we're sending our love.. waaaaay way down that hole.

making it up on volume

[Hognoxious]

Even you can comprehend that there are other costs apart from building plant & equipment, and it's by no means a given that revenue is sufficient to cover those ... right?

Re:making it up on volume

[Aighearach]

Unlike you, I can read a financial statement, yes.

You're just waving your hands and hoping nobody else understands the numbers either. LMFAO!

They're a corporation, their numbers aren't secrets.

Re: Good grief

[tehcyder]

But surely even you can comprehend that they're making a whole boatload of revenue, with a pretty normal business model that leads to big profits after they stop making huge capital investments to build factories... right?

Capital investments like building factories don't come out of profit, except indirectly through depreciation.

What huge capital investments do is cause cash flow issues. So you have to borrow money to keep your cashflow positive. The question is whether future profits will eventually cover this.

Re: Good grief

[tehcyder]

"...underpinning long-shot start-ups."

That is precisely what subsidies are for.

Subsidies reduce the investment cost (and thereby reduce the risk) of low-return investments that the legislature (or other subsidy-issuing authority) has determined are important for society to pursue.

This would be fine if any investments that pay off didn't become risk-free cashcows for the private owner with no return for the government.

Re: Good grief

[tehcyder]

$4.9 billion in subsidies as of three years ago, and still counting.

If you had bothered reading the article you linked to you would have seen that the subsidies break down as follows:

1. $750 million to build a solar plant, and $260 million in property tax breaks, on a project which New York state expects to generate 3,000 jobs and replace a Steel factory. 2. $497 million in tax credits for solar installation; a tax break available to ALL solar providers. 3. $1.5 billion in subsidies paid to solar consumers (ie. not paid to Elon or any of his companies). 4. $1.3 billion in undefined "incentives" to build a battery factory - probably also composed of tax-breaks intended to support an extremely profitable venture which will greatly benefit Nevada (later in the story they point out that Nevada expects to get back $100 billion in "economic impact"). 5. $517 million from collecting "environmental credits" from competitors. This is not "taxpayer money". 6. $20 million in yet more undefined subsidies for a launch facility; again, a great deal for Texas given the profitability of SpaceX.

Now, the original claim was that "an awful lot of tax dollars are spent inflating his ego", and, to support this claim, you linked to a jumbled mass of programs totalling $4.9 billion. Out of that $4.9 billion, we can discount $1.5 immediately since it was given to consumers as part of a larger solar subsidy which has nothing to do with Elon. That leaves $3.4 billion. We can further subtract the $497 million given to Tesla because, again, these are programs available to (and used by) all solar providers. We are down to $2.9 billion.

We can also take out the $517 million taken from competitors because ... well, don't be stupid. Now we have $2.4 billion.

Of that $2.4 billion, $750 million is being used to construct a facility which the government will own. So that's about $1.6 billion left.

So the actual amount of money, according to your own source, which is being spent specifically to "inflate his ego" is about $1.6 billion ... and, again according to your own source, almost all of this money is composed of tax breaks rather than direct spending. Tax breaks which, according to the government, should stimulate the economy to the tune of $100 billion over 2 decades.

Quelle horreur.

But the underlying point is that, even if in net terms he received 0 dollars, he is still being funded by the taxpayer to create a large and diverse business empire risk-free, and with the prospect of one of the longshots coming off and making him a zillionaire.

Re: Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

You're just jelly because you didnt think of it first. Or maybe lack some other ability to pull this off.

Re: Good grief

[CaffeinatedBacon]

Lucky that isn't the case then isn't it.

Re:Good grief

[110010001000]

LOL. Give me a break. You sound like Musk. Slashdot doesn't have enough readers for PR.

Re: Good grief

[Lothsahn]

But the underlying point is that, even if in net terms he received 0 dollars, he is still being funded by the taxpayer to create a large and diverse business empire risk-free, and with the prospect of one of the longshots coming off and making him a zillionaire.

Okay, so I've mainly been lurking on the Elon Love/Hate flame wars, but this is just too much. You seriously just tried to describe Elon's business model as "risk-free"... OK.

Re:Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

If you had read the article you would see he was approached and asked if he could do something, he didn't just hop up and say I can do it.

Train0987 seems absolutely desperate to trumpet his hatred of Elon by misrepresenting the facts of the situation and karma whorig. Shameless.

Re: Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like you claimed they would have sold a $35000 model 3 by January.

Re: Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

Or maybe lack some other ability to pull this off.

Money is the only thing that any other person lacks to pull this off.

Discussion on NASAwatch of this situation

[k6mfw]

NASA's Rescue Expertise Is Needed Again - In Thailand http://nasawatch.com/archives/...

Homer Hickam, author of "October Sky" (Rocket Boys), showed this item his dad invented in 1948, https://uploads.disquscdn.com/...

Stark

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's just start calling him that so we can just get it out in the open from the get-go what you fanboys really think.

If They Get...

[rally2xs]

...Tony Stark on the job, those kids are as good as out of that cave...

Re: Good grief

[Rei]

Huh?

Nothing. Musk Can Offer Nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

Musk can offer to get out of the way, and stay out of the way.

Elon, I love you and you are amazing. So why are you turning into such an attention whore? Stick to your knitting; a bunch of scared and wet Thai teenagers do not need your "help". And if they do the Thai government will ask.

When those Mexican miners needed help they got it. From actual rig drillers, the kind with relevant skills, expertise, and equipment. That Thai soccer team probably needs expert cavers. What is Musk bringing to the party, a rocket? Perhaps an electric car? Suppose he thinks he can use PayPal to fund a flashmob who will stand around and cheer? I know, he's going to build a Hyperloop tube from Bangkok to this cave, at a cost of billions of dollars and an expected completion date of 7 years from now.

This situation doesn't concern you and you are just distracting the adults who are doing their work. Bugger off and let the grown-ups get on with it!

Re: Good grief

[Aighearach]

Capital investments like building factories don't come out of profit, except indirectly through depreciation.

I didn't say that, though. So backspace through whatever you typed, figure out what was said first, then after that type out some words if you need to spew.

Re: Good grief

[Train0987]

You don't think the same services exist to pump a stock? Promotion services are exponentially more avaialble than stock hating services. In fact there's more of a financial incentive to pump than to short. There are unlimited gains to be had from a stock rising but the best a short can do is double their money and that's only if the stock drops all the way to zero (with potentially unlimited losses if the stock increases). The folks blaming the short boogey man have no clue how markets work. Their susceptibility to that is direct evidence of their general ignorance and why they are targeted by these get rich quick stock schemes in the first place.

Re:Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect that the Thai govt has this under control, but I’m happy to help if there is a way to do so
— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) July 4, 2018"

He was asked.
As I said before, I don't particularly care for the guy, but lets not fall for someones inflammatory story hook-line and sinker.

Re:Good grief

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing of the sort happened. Some third party asked if he was going to help. He simply made a response that was respectful, and essentially said "Sure, but I don't think they need my help". You're all over this thread with the hatefap though.

Re: Good grief

[Bruce Perens]

If you pump your own company's stock, or a stock you own, with false information, you run a pretty big risk with the SEC. In contrast, tracking down and prosecuting a short-seller for similar manipulation generally takes a civil suit by the company and is difficult and expensive for them to pursue.

Take, for example, the people who say that SpaceX profits from public subsidies. If you look into it, you will find that SpaceX gets paid to lift a satellite to space, at a lower cost than its competitor, and they are charging the government for the ride. In contrast, their competitor ULA has been getting a real public subsidy, a one Billion dollar per year fee simply to "maintain readiness" to launch military payloads, rather than a fee per ride.

Re:Nothing. Musk Can Offer Nothing.

[rally2xs]

Heard on the news that Musk's idea is to thread a plastic, 1-meter diameter tube through the flooded areas, then blow it up like "a bouncy house" to evacuate the water and create a 1 meter diameter tunnel for the kids to crawl out through. Sounds good to me. Wonder if he's got some way of manufacturing a 1 meter tough but flexible plastic tube hundreds of yards long. Hopefully.

Re: Good grief

[Zarquon]

In addition to a fee per ride.

Re:Love him

[PrimaryConsult]

Consider I've actually gone there post-hurricane and spent money infusing the local economy, I can claim to have done something to help. Many places still weren't accepting credit cards, and functioning ATMs were non-existent outside the CBD of San Juan, so simply showing up with a pile of cash from the mainland and leaving with an empty wallet does a lot.

I will say that Musk sounds like he has done more for PR than FEMA though: everyone there bitched that all those guys did was take up hotel rooms in the tourist areas so they could drive 3+ hours each way every day to where the actual problems were. They took up rooms but didn't spend any money at the local businesses. If it weren't for the cruise ships and the few tourists who could afford the inflated room prices, places would have had to close.

Re: Good grief

[Bruce Perens]

Yes, you're right. And they still charge much more for the ride than SpaceX.

Re: Fuck off Elon

[Anonymous Coward]

He's just trying to help. They should accept all the help the can get and not shame him for past faults

Re: Good grief

[Hognoxious]

And yet if they spent a percent of a percent of that on things that poor people use you'd be frothing at the mouth about big gubmint.

Fritz, Jock, Taff, Jaapie ...

[Hognoxious]

Ivan has been slang for a Russian, or Russians collectively, since WW2 at least. GIYF.

Re:Fritz, Jock, Taff, Jaapie ...

[bingoUV]

You do understand that words in a language work in context , right ? In the context

Sorry Ivan, I think you ...

, the way it was used here, what does it mean ?
1. If "a Russian", which Russian is being apologized to ?

2. If "Russians collectively" - why is it in a reply to one of my posts ?

Re:Fritz, Jock, Taff, Jaapie ...

[Hognoxious]

1. If "a Russian", which Russian is being apologized to ?

Since you're so clever you must have heard of a thing called process of elimination. Two clues for you - it's probably not the writer himself, and it's not me.

Oh, one other thing. Stop putting spaces before question marks. It's wrong and it looks shit.

Re: Fritz, Jock, Taff, Jaapie ...

[bingoUV]

Even if he is talking about real, living humans, you may have eliminated 2 whole persons from the list. Felicitations for you are in order ?

Tow a capsule?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the boys are too scared or weak to swim/SCUBA, or if there is the element of panic possibly hampering the ability to follow directions, can they be put in a small watertight capsule (with air supply, of course) and towed out? The swimming/SCUBA idea does seems impossibly risky because water flow or rocky obstacles could easily displace their mask/regulator and it would just be asking too much for them to be able to get it all in place and cleared in cramped, dark, cold, turbulent conditions. I know how to swim and SCUBA, and have even been cave diving, but just the thought of such a swim is terrifying. It might be tolerable for 10 minutes, but keeping it together for hours is too much.

Re:Nothing. Musk Can Offer Nothing.

[DeBaas]

Latest tweet is talking about escape pods, which I think is a lot more feasible. A combination might be better with the tubes in the narrow places to make sure the pods don't get stuck. Then you don't need miles of them.
A watertight (flexible) pod that restricts the movement of the kids enough to prevent panic to lead to issues seems to me the best option to 'transport' the kids through.

Re:New Company

[Anonymous Coward]

The Blow Company.

Re: Good grief

[c6gunner]

I realize that you're functionally retarded, but even you have got to be aware that total spending on "thing poor people use" is well over a trillion dollars annually. So I gotta ask; why are you being a disingenuous cunt?

The coach in there with them.

[Anonymous Coward]

They just walked in; the cave is a popular spelunking spot with well-established trails and not particularly challenging when dry.

The cave normally floods from July to November. June 26 when they went in is late in the safe window but normally okay. The rains came early.

Re: Good grief

[Hognoxious]

Nothing is risk-free, that's obvious. The real question is about who's bearing the risk.