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Elon Musk's Team Is Talking With Thai Officials for Cave Rescue (bloomberg.com)
Representatives for Elon Musk are in talks with Thai authorities about aiding in the rescue of a boys' soccer team stuck in a cave, said a spokesman for the billionaire. From a report: Musk's companies could help by trying to locate the boys' precise location using Space Exploration Technologies or Boring Co. technology, pumping water or providing heavy-duty battery packs known as Tesla Powerwalls, the spokesman said. It's unclear whether Thai officials will accept the offer. Twelve boys and their coach, who had been missing since last month, were found by a pair of British cave divers late Monday. Efforts to rescue them are hampered by narrow passageways and rising waters in the cave system. Most of the boys cannot swim.
This kinds of crap is why Slashdot is seen as a cesspool these days. Resentful rage-nerds are no substitute for the intelligent people who once populated this site.
Or maybe he really thinks he can help?
I'd hate to be the guy having to decide how to get those kids out. No good options at the moment. I don't see how batteries would help, I'm sure they already have batteries and are apparently running power/communication to the boys location.
I wonder if there is a flexible pipe with a wide enough ID to pull these boys through. If they could snake such a pipe through the underwater sections, then pump out the water, it might be an option. I suppose that effort itself would be quite dangerous and take a lot of time to act on, if its even feasible to start with.
Then why not just help instead of Tweeting and then having his PR people contact the press about it?
Getting kids unskilled in SCUBA through a complex path underwater for a whole hour is really chancy. It's not just a 5-minute dip.
Bruce Perens.
Cave diving is highly technical. In one part of this particular dive the diver has to be remove their gear and push it ahead of them, in the dark, without getting tangled. This isn't a simple open water dive. An untrained non-swimmer will panic and die, trapping everyone else in the cave behind them.
They said it would take about five hours for them to get out. And some of that is in very confined passageways filled with murky water.
Most of these kids don't even know how to swim. Imagine the panic attacks and resultant thrashing that could happen. They could kill themselves and the rescuers.
load "linux",8,1
Thai Navy divers and a specialist rescue team from the UK are the ones who found them. Now Musk wants to ride in on his white horse with the media in tow.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Paid resentful rage actors. Their job is to manipulate social networks for the interest of whoever pays them, whether that is short-sellers, Russia, oil companies, gasoline car manufacturers, the list goes on. For decades there have been PR companies that do not only positive but negative publicity, with the advent of the Internet this just expanded to include paid trolls.
Bruce Perens.
3) Expertise.
3.1) Erect a big car-production-line sized tent over the area to shield it from monsoon rains flooding the caves. How big is Thailand, in the size-of-Wales units . . . ?
3.2) Use flamethrowers to boil the water and dry out the caves.
4) Musk can maybe provide patience. It doesn't seem that there are any quick and easy solutions. I remember a mine accident in South America, where it took three months to dig them out via an escape hole. Musk has gotten patience from his Tesla investors. Maybe he can convince the world that they will just need to be patient and wait for a safe rescue method . . . ?
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
If divers got in there, surely they can get some more divers in there with some more equipment, and then tow the kids out of there in spite of their lack of swimming ability?
You mean getting kids that can't swim to use SCUBA gear for their first time and not panic while navigating through an underwater maze of twisty little passages, all alike for over a mile, underwater, in the dark, for 5+ hours? I'm a 55-year-old super experienced swimmer and that might freak me out a little. While I'm confident that I could keep it together, I wouldn't be so sure about my 11-year-old niece.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
The best in the world are already there. Musk is just chasing a spotlight he saw.
The best experts in the world haven't figured it out yet... Sounds like a job for Elon Musk and his Twitter machine!
As a diver I can highlight a few dangers with this kind of diving:
1) Panic. If someone panics they lose all rationality, these means they will do things like reject their equipment, take their mask off, taking their breathing apparatus out, flap about and risk knocking any rescuers dive gear off. When you do rescue diver training one of the first things you're taught is that if someone is in panic to only approach if you believe you can restrain them, it's better to let them run out of energy, fall under, and pass out, then try and recover them once they're unconcious/drowning than it is to risk a rescue and get yourself knocked out by a flailing arm. There are tactics you can use to approach a panicing diver, such as approaching them underwater and removing their weights (so they can't descend), or approaching them from behind and controlling them by holding their tank where they can't reach you. The problem is, none of these approaches are any use in a tight cave. There have been plenty of recorded incidents over the years of even the skinniest, most petite young girls accidentally knocking even the strongest most experienced dive instructors for six as a result of panic.
2) Low visibility, due to the rainfall and porous nature of the rocks, there is quite a lot of silt in the water, that means visibility may be next to nothing at points, that's a perfect recipe for panic. When you start to do tech diving, one of the things you learn is to use shorter fins, and kick differently than you do open water cruising reefs watching turtles and stuff. You learn to kick in a way that limits stirring up silt, and in fact don't even kick at all if you can pull yourself along a guide line or something - getting the kids to avoid a natural tendancy to kick, or to kick using the right finning style if they do will in itself not be easy without significant practice. If they kick or flap they're just going to make visibility even worse.
3) Parts of the dive are 30 metres, whilst that's not massively deep for even fairly casual recreational diving, it's still ample depth to suffer effects like narcosis, which can cause anything from making someone deliriously happy, to deliriously stupid like with panic in rejecting equipment.
4) Some parts of the cave system are so narrow, the only way through is to take your equipment off, push it through, swim through, then put your equipment back on. Cave and tech divers in general usually have long hoses for this type of scenario so they can keep the regulator in whilst they do this, but keep your regulator in, or removing it and replacing it whilst de-kitting, and re-kitting when you reach the other side isn't something a beginner should ever attempt.
5) Air consumption. It's an hour dive, and an experienced diver can easily do an hour on a typical 12 litre tank, but these aren't experienced divers, the stress of the cold, dark, and tight passages, coupled with poor buoyancy and trim, and zero experience means these kids will be burning air like no tomorrow, and with parts at 30 metres this means they could trivially run out in as little as 30 minutes. That means at some point you need to switch their air supply.
6) Keeping track of them, the normal way to safely cave and wreck dive is to follow a guide line that you've tied and run through the system, this means the kids have to pull themselves along it for an hour. That's fine in itself but what if they lose it? If there's zero visibility due to silt then how do you find them again? You can tie them to an experienced diver with a buddy tether, but that's something else that can get tangled and create a crisis- if it gets tangled round the kids breathing apparatus it could accidentally pull it out and you might find all you have at the other side is a drowned kid. There won't be room at times to have someone swimming side by side with them.
7) Buoyancy control. It takes a while to get that right, get that wrong and serious accidents can occur. If you inflate your buoyancy vest too much you'll get an u
I thought that. Then I realized I've been in a cave precisely twice, neither of them underwater, and decided to shut the fuck up.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Rather than get on your high horse mister AC, try this on for size: If any product that Musk's companies have made can help to either save those children's lives, or get them out quicker and more safely then he should get them sent over. Playing your favourite game of Musk Hating (tm) is not for this situation. They're children. Their lives are in urgent danger. Take yourself outside and have a stern word with yourself
Yes, tweeting something is now considered "leaking it to Blomberg".
What a wonderful mind you have ...
Cave diving rescue is a very rarefied skill.
Cave diving is extremely dangerous activity. It is far more dangerous than sport or commercial scuba diving. It requires much more skill and experience. It requires planning, guide line laying, logistic placement of air supplies. It is highly specialised.
While the Thia SEALs are undoubtedly highly trained and brave; cave diving requires a rare combination of extremely demand skills and mental strength. If you run into trouble, surfacing is just not an option.
The British Cave Rescue team involved in this has published some factual press releases about their activity.
https://www.caverescue.org.uk/...
Shocking isn't it - the thought that people who are like actual experts on a thing might know a lot more about that thing than people who are experts on other things - or nothing.
They should maybe try a blockchain or something.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Uh okay. Except he was approached to help and said that he suspected that the Thai government had it under control:
"Elon Musk has said he is “happy to help” with the rescue of the Thai soccer team currently stuck in a cave.
The Tesla CEO was asked by a Twitter user if he could provide a helping hand with the recovery of the 12 boys and their coach who have been stuck in a Thai cave for nearly two weeks, and Musk replied in the affirmative a few hours later.
I suspect that the Thai govt has this under control, but I’m happy to help if there is a way to do so
— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) July 4, 2018"
He *may* be getting high on his savior complex, but he was asked for help, he responded that he would but that he didn't think the Thai government needed it, and then you took to Slashdot.
I am not interested in articles about life extension advancements.
P.S. Am I the only one wondering where they're shitting?
In a cave.
My biggest concern with this would be how much research has been done into the effects of those drugs on people underwater.
People often don't realise quite how much of a profound effect the mammalian dive reflex can have on the human body, I can't honestly be arsed to find the study but I'm sure someone can if they can be bothered, but essentially they measured the heart rate of a bunch of free divers and a good proportion of them had their heart rate drop to 20 bpm, and incredibly, a tiny minority as low as 5 bpm whilst free diving.
I'd wager there's a risk therefore that a combination of the two could simply cause the heart to go into cardiac arrest.
That's before you factor in the other effects of diving too of course of which there are many - you end up with different gas mixes in the blood, on normal air mixes in a scuba tank you build up nitrogen, eventually this can reach toxic levels if you do a couple of deep dives in a row it's sufficient. To counteract this and allow people to do repetitive dives you can get gas blends in tanks with higher oxygen percentages, for recreational diving this usually means up to 40% oxygen. Tech diving has other blends, but I won't go into that. The problem with even higher oxygen blends is that they restrict your depth limit, because past a certain point with a great oxygen percentage you can suffer oxygen toxicity which will cause a seizure, something that's almost always deadly underwater. I probably should memorise the nitrox tables but I think if you have something like a 32% oxygen blend then you're at risk of oxygen poisoning and subsequent seizure at only about 30 metres or so.
But I digress, the point is that other changes happen too - capillaries get constricted at the outer regions of your body such as around your legs, as above, you have different amounts of nitrogen and oxygen in your blood stream. You potentially have a much higher level of stress, and so on and so forth. Is it still safe to take those drugs with all those things going on? It's certainly not safe to assume that drugs that work fine at sea level in normal conditions, are safe with the physiological changes that happen when diving.
But there's one other big problem, when diving you have to be able to equalise the pressure in your ears, if you don't do that you'll burst your ear drum and be in absolute agony. I'm not sure how you're going to do that if you're not lucid.
I made a post about drugging them here which covers that kind of thing:
https://slashdot.org/comments....
Long story short, yeah, you really need them to be lucid, and the effects of drugs that normally work fine above water may work completely differently underwater. Some side effects are obvious, some not so.
I learnt the hard way early on why you shouldn't even take decongestants when diving. I dived with a minor cold, but took some decongestants and assumed it would be okay. Of course, I still had mucus stuck in the holes in your palate as we tend to when we get colds. I descended to about 5 metres and couldn't clear the pain, so ascend, descended, same problem - a typical squeeze issue from trapped air and an inability to equalise the pressure in the air pocket. I descended a bit more to see if it cleared, by about 10 metres it had, so I continued the dive (a 40 metre dive, in 2c water in a quarry in the UK, in November, with about 1 metre visibility - don't ask). This was the first and only time I suffered nitrogen narcosis, I can't obviously say the decongestants were wholly to blame, I suspect they were a contributing factor but not the only factor. Nitrogen narcosis affects people in different ways, but for me, subconcious was telling me I couldn't breathe and I felt this overwhelming urge to take the regulator out my mouth so I could breathe, whilst I was conciously trying to fight that instinct and tell myself don't be fucking stupid, if you take it out you drown, calm down, keep breathing through it, your fine. Horrible feeling having to fight your own instincts to not drown, but nonetheless I made it through it okay by reminding myself I'm alive, breathing fine, a little bit cold but otherwise okay, keep going, all is good.
When I came back up I hit 10 metres and it started hurting near my palate again at the top of my mouth, so again descended to try and clear, went away, ascended, same problem at 10 metres. Running low on air I decided to try and ascend slowly, hurt for a few metres and again at 5 metres it eventually went away. Finished the dive, thought nothing of it.
Now I'm not really sure to this day why it only affected me in that 5 metre window, normally if you have a pressure equalisation issue it only gets worse if you keep going in the direction it started hurting in (i.e. up or down), but for whatever reason it did.
I didn't put two and two together as to the cause and effect until about 6 months later, but long story short after that dive I lost my sense of taste for about 3 months, and was scared shitless it was permanent. The doctors had no idea because I hadn't even remotely connected it to the idea it was to do with the diving, but essentially I'd damaged my palate and the worst part is, even chocolate was like eating tasteless mud, it's really the only way I can describe it - no sweatness, no real flavour at all, just flavourless melted chocolate.
So the lesson here is that even common medicines can increase your susceptibility to problems when diving, and things like valium I suspect have never really been trialled on divers (see my above linked post for the other physicological changes that could impact it), and that if you can't equalise, you can risk some really serious damage, so you have to be able to a) equalise and abort the dive if you can't, b) be lucid enough to make it clear you can't equalise.
Any dive training you do will absolutely and always iterate that you should never do it on medication precisely because almost all meds are untested under the physiological changes divers face, and because you need to be aware and conscious to immediately call out and react to problems because otherwise they'll often only get worse. The cave diving community take this sufficiently seriously that they have a rule- anyone can end a dive for any reason at any time, without question. This is precisely because everything from anxiety about a dive, through to illness,
Use his big test noring device to drill down? Is the cave underwater with a pocket? Drilling in from the top would release the air and flood the cave before they could get out.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
"...underpinning long-shot start-ups."
That is precisely what subsidies are for.
Subsidies reduce the investment cost (and thereby reduce the risk) of low-return investments that the legislature (or other subsidy-issuing authority) has determined are important for society to pursue.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
I have had PR firms offer me the service, while I've been a corporate officer.
Read the story here. The people who have bought shorts have billions at stake. They are very motivated to pay for this.
Bruce Perens.
$4.9 billion in subsidies as of three years ago, and still counting.
If you had bothered reading the article you linked to you would have seen that the subsidies break down as follows:
1. $750 million to build a solar plant, and $260 million in property tax breaks, on a project which New York state expects to generate 3,000 jobs and replace a Steel factory.
2. $497 million in tax credits for solar installation; a tax break available to ALL solar providers.
3. $1.5 billion in subsidies paid to solar consumers (ie. not paid to Elon or any of his companies).
4. $1.3 billion in undefined "incentives" to build a battery factory - probably also composed of tax-breaks intended to support an extremely profitable venture which will greatly benefit Nevada (later in the story they point out that Nevada expects to get back $100 billion in "economic impact").
5. $517 million from collecting "environmental credits" from competitors. This is not "taxpayer money".
6. $20 million in yet more undefined subsidies for a launch facility; again, a great deal for Texas given the profitability of SpaceX.
Now, the original claim was that "an awful lot of tax dollars are spent inflating his ego", and, to support this claim, you linked to a jumbled mass of programs totalling $4.9 billion. Out of that $4.9 billion, we can discount $1.5 immediately since it was given to consumers as part of a larger solar subsidy which has nothing to do with Elon. That leaves $3.4 billion. We can further subtract the $497 million given to Tesla because, again, these are programs available to (and used by) all solar providers. We are down to $2.9 billion.
We can also take out the $517 million taken from competitors because ... well, don't be stupid. Now we have $2.4 billion.
Of that $2.4 billion, $750 million is being used to construct a facility which the government will own. So that's about $1.6 billion left.
So the actual amount of money, according to your own source, which is being spent specifically to "inflate his ego" is about $1.6 billion ... and, again according to your own source, almost all of this money is composed of tax breaks rather than direct spending. Tax breaks which, according to the government, should stimulate the economy to the tune of $100 billion over 2 decades.
Quelle horreur.
If all you ever do is "pump," and you never "dump," what is the problem? Your complaint is that he tries to make his company look good, or make the stock look like a good buy? You thought that was bad? What?
You don't seem to understand the situations where the word "pump" is used in relation to securities.
A lot of people also do wreck dive because they feel wrecks are smaller than caves, and the layout is likely to be better known. I've entered ships hulls and that kind of thing, but have never been a fan of doing as some wreck divers do and diving into the ship - as most people know the hallways in a ship are typically much narrower and shorter than a typical hallway in a building. Navigating that when it may be at ab obscure angle (even upside down) which is disorientating, when you're wearing scuba gear, and when one kick or bump can stir up enough silt to prevent you seeing is easily as dangerous as cave diving.
But there's another risk - ships decay, that deck could be rusted and collapse on you at any moment. Other fun dangerous of wreck diving include everything from being freaked out by human remains, to unexploded ordnance. If you ever wondered what a person being caught in an explosion on a ship that subsequently sinks looks like 80 years later, look no further than Truk lagoon:
https://dansdiveshop.ca/wp-con...
As diving goes I'd say wreck can be at least as dangerous as cave, if not more so. I'd gladly favour diving with crocodiles and sharks over deep cave, or deep wreck penetration any day, because at least you can learn croc/shark behaviour and it's almost entirely consistent. Caves/wrecks have too much going on you can't control. The decaying superstructure of a ship is simply a ticking timebomb.
There are a suprising number of diving adventures that have varying levels of elevated risk, such as diving hydro-thermal vents, or lava vents underwater, ice diving (you can actually get diving trips to dive under the north pole (~$24,000 last I checked), shark diving, crocodile diving, I understand there's a flooded nuclear missile silo somewhere in the states you can dive even. Then there are others that sound scary but aren't, for example in Iceland you can dive between the North American and European continental plates - it's actually incredibly impressive and one of the best dives I've done, but it's really fairly tame with the only actual risk being the fact that the water is 2c pretty much year around because it's all glacial runoff - if you ever want to know what full head equivalent of brain freeze feels like then jump in there. Probably the king of all sounds scary but isn't diving though is the typical night dive, that first jump and descent off a boat into sheer darkness with no orientation until everyone turns their torches on is horrifying, do it once though and you'll be addicted to diving at night.
Sorry Ivan, I think you've entirely missed the point of the discussion in your unnecessarily rabid defence of the Russian state. The point wasn't whether or not Russia did a good or bad job, the point was that you can't just knock people out and assume they'll wake up a-ok. It requires trained medical support to make sure people wake up, and even then it's not guaranteed, it simply increases the odds.
But for what it's worth, yes, I think it's pretty clear the operation was a colossal fuck up, and yes I do have a better plan, as would anyone who puts people's lives over and above state secrecy. It's pretty simple, if you're going to knock people out make fucking sure you tell the medical people how to maximise the chance of them waking up again, and if you don't want to spill secrets about the gas used, then get some people from the security services to guard and monitor and administer the antidote instead. Most of the hostages that died died after the terrorists were dead and the unconscious people had been moved out of the theatre simply because the medics didn't know how to revive them because they were given no information on how everyone had been rendered unconcious.
If, as is now commonly believed it's true that they used carfentanil then there's a commonly available antidote to this, that whilst not absolute in it's affects is most definitely better than nothing. Had the Russian ambulance crews been provided in with naloxone as soon as they started moving unconcious people out then they could've saved hundreds more. The fact is the death toll was so high because of nothing other than utter state incompetence.
I don't disagree that it wasn't an effective assault by Russian special forces, I do disagree that it can be called any kind of successful operation overall because it was the planning/follow up by Russian authorities in not ensuring the correct medical support was available that created a massively high death toll. To put it another way, most of the people who died, died well after the terrorists had been well and truly neutralised and their weapons neutralised, and really, once the terrorists are dead and their weapons are neutralised, then there shouldn't be much of an excuse for further casualties.
It was basically the equivalent of settings fire to a building full of hostages and hostage takers, having the fire burn the hostage takers to death then walking off without putting the fire out and instead letting it burn the hostages to death too. Normally resolving hostage situations isn't just about taking out the hostage takers, it's about maximising recovery of the hostages, which didn't happen here. There are ample interviews by medical staff who actually were there pointing out that they were just completely stonewalled when asking what they could do to maximise chances of recovery of the hostages.
It was the complete failure to enable administration of proper medical care that prevented that operation being a resounding success, and that's why it highlights the importance of ensuring proper medical staff availability with sufficient information and medical supplies to maximise the chance of recovery post-sedation, which was really the point of this discussion, rather than childish pro-Russian propaganda and flagrantly pathetic logical fallacies like "How many hostages have you rescued?".