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Apple's App Store Celebrates 10th Anniversary (betanews.com)

BrianFagioli writes: People sometimes forget that when the first-ever iPhone launched in 2007, there was no App Store. Believe it or not, Apple's smartphone was limited to the apps with which it came. In fact, Steve Jobs famously didn't want third-party apps on the iPhone at all. Ultimately, the App Store was added in 2008 despite Jobs' initial push against it. This move changed the computer industry forever.

This month, the Apple App Store reaches an impressive milestone -- its 10th Birthday. This day is important for three groups -- Apple (of course), but more importantly, consumers and developers. Apple has made billions of dollars from the App Store, but third party developers have as well -- the company has literally transformed some devs into millionaires. Consumers have benefited from high-quality applications too.

Regardless of your feelings about Apple, the world owes it a collective thank you for its App Store. It inspired other companies, such as Google with Android and Microsoft with Windows 8/10, to adopt the same app concepts. It really did change everything.

74 comments

  1. Revisionist by Luthair · · Score: 1, Troll

    Not only is this revisionist, in that Apple is far from the first device or operating system to have its own app store, its also a terrible thing for users and developers.

    1. Re:Revisionist by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There's around 99.9999% of users out there that have zero clue how computers work. They need to be protected from themselves. Look at all the viruses, trojans, phishing and other crap that's going on. That shit exists because of those 99.9999% of users.

      For developers, it works as a place where everyone can find their software and is also a platform that makes payments much easier to deal with.

      So how exactly is it a terrible thing for users and developers?

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    2. Re:Revisionist by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Also, which part is "revisionist history"?

      " It inspired other companies, such as Google with Android and Microsoft with Windows 8/10, to adopt the same app concepts. It really did change everything."

      It doesn't say they were the first-ever to do something like this. All it says is that Apple inspired other companies to do it too. I'm pretty sure things like Steam and GoG aren't big enough on the radars of big companies to inspire them to copy their concepts.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    3. Re:Revisionist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All in your opinion. Of course. Internet guy who did nothing.

    4. Re:Revisionist by Octorian · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Because it limits app distribution to only those apps the platform vendor approves of. They can and do disprove of apps for reasons other than "its malware."

      IMHO, providing an app store isn't a bad thing in and of itself. However, enforcing that all apps shall *only* be distributed via the platform vendor's app store is.

    5. Re:Revisionist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but I clearly remember downloading 3rd party apps from the symbian store on my nokia before the apple store was ever thought of. Definitely pre-2007 and not shortly after on the candybar XpressMusic phones. Just saying...

    6. Re:Revisionist by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There's no porn available at Disney World. That doesn't make Disney World a "terrible place".

      Sure it would be nice to have other options for iOS applications, but Apple decided that their platform works this way.

      You can decide to go somewhere else than Disney World, you can decide to buy another phone than iPhone.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    7. Re:Revisionist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... its also a terrible thing for users and developers.

      Funny, I think it's a terrible thing that you are even allowed to use a computer, when you don't know the difference between it's and its.

      Learn some English, you ignorant fuck.

      As for your idiotic opinion that the App Store is "bad" for users, you're full of shit. Do us all a favor and go play a video game and quit posting your moronic crap.

    8. Re: Revisionist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're correct. Symbian had apps from 3rd parties available before the iPhone even existed.

    9. Re: Revisionist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny, I think it's a terrible thing that you are even allowed to use a computer, when you don't know the difference between it's and its.

      Learn some English, you ignorant fuck.

      As for your idiotic opinion that the App Store is "bad" for users, you're full of shit. Do us all a favor and go play a video game and quit posting your moronic crap.

      Says they guy who can't spell 'favour'.

      Idiot.

    10. Re:Revisionist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no porn available at Disney World. That doesn't make Disney World a "terrible place".

      Yes it fucking does, happiest place on earth my ass.

    11. Re:Revisionist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      True, Ubuntu had an "app store". Almost every GNU+Linux Distro had an "app store" called a "software repository".

      However, it's a BADASS thing when done right, like on GNU+Linux distros. The difference is that users of GNU+Linux can add their own software repositories so they're not limited by the shit the OS supplier decides to accept on their platform.

      "App Stores" are not evil, but can be used for evil if they are limited to a "Walled Garden" (which is the word you're looking for, not "app store").

    12. Re:Revisionist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, which part is "revisionist history"?

      .. the part that suggests that Apple invented OS repositories. Linux and BSDs had robust, secure repositories long, long before Apple's app store.

      Back in the oughts, it was a never ending parade of Mac tards saying, "look at this revolutionary thing that Jobs/Apple invented!" and those of us with some computer knowledge and with a basic sense of history would say, "uhm, that first appeared 20 years ago in XYZ..." Mac tard, "but that doesn't count, because it had a terrible browser!!!"

    13. Re:Revisionist by Octorian · · Score: 1

      You're allowed to include Universal Studios or Seaworld in your Orlando vacation, if Disney World doesn't have something you want. Heck, you can even venture out a bit further and go to any 3rd rate attraction you like. The Disney corporation doesn't make you sign a form as you step off the gate at Orlando International Airport where you agree to only include Disney-approved properties in your vacation plans.

      There's a pretty good chance a restrictive platform vendor would exclude an application simply because it doesn't mesh well with their business interests, or because it competes with one of their product offerings. So stop trying to limit it to "malware" and "content some find objectionable" (but others may not).

      As these new mobile platforms start to take over from "general purpose computers", people need to stop giving them a free pass on implementing any arbitrary limitations the platform vendor so feels like... Because "mobile."

    14. Re:Revisionist by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      Not only is this revisionist, in that Apple is far from the first device or operating system to have its own app store, its also a terrible thing for users and developers.

      Well, unless you can point to you saying the same thing about such a store before the App Store - cool story Bro.

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    15. Re:Revisionist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The Disney corporation doesn't make you sign a form as you step off the gate at Orlando International Airport where you agree to only include Disney-approved properties in your vacation plans.

      They would if they could.

    16. Re:Revisionist by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      You're allowed to include Universal Studios or Seaworld in your Orlando vacation, if Disney World doesn't have something you want.+/quote> And you are allowed to get your apps for iPhones in other ways. You just habe to really want to. The fact that you don't know them doesn't change that.

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    17. Re:Revisionist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      History is written by the victors.

      Yeah, "app stores" existed before the iPhone, but who the fuck used them? To deny that Apple completely changed the landscape with the iPhone and the App Store and how it operates is more revisionist than anything.

      Locking carriers out of the loop and the 70/30 revenue split was absolutely revolutionary compared to what was the standard before.

    18. Re:Revisionist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you're allowed to buy an Android phone, a Windows phone, an old Nokia phone, etc. Nobody's forcing you to buy an iPhone.

    19. Re:Revisionist by Luthair · · Score: 1

      Microsoft had an app store in 2004.

    20. Re:Revisionist by Luthair · · Score: 1

      That was my point also

    21. Re: Revisionist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's spelled that way in first-world countries, i.e. UK and Canada.

    22. Re:Revisionist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used Handango long before apple started copying everyone and before apple worshipper started twisting the history of computing.

    23. Re:Revisionist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Handango. But as a minion of apple im sure you will find some long drawn out boring reason that is doesn't count.

    24. Re:Revisionist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " can be used for evil if they are limited to a "Walled Garden""

      Ever think that some people WANT a "Walled Garden"?

      Every week I hear about some more Android vulnerabilities or trojamns, or who-knows-what that steals user data or compromises the phone in some way or other.

      The App store fulfills my meager requirements, so how is that evil?

      So, because my needs are simple, now I'm some sort of idiot or Luddite I suppose.

      Just can't please some people.

      App store not your cup of tea? Don't buy an iPhone! Most Android folks talk about how far behind iPhones are technologically, so why would you be interested in buying one? Sometimes folks just don't make any sense ...

    25. Re: Revisionist by nullchar · · Score: 1

      So did classic PalmOS. Not the same "store front" like the walled gardens have today, but it was pretty easy to add "apps" to any of the robust early devices of the turn of the century.

    26. Re: Revisionist by nullchar · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I'm nieve, but I trust the F-Droid marketplace much more than official Google Play.

      You get what you pay for, in freedom or beer.

    27. Re: Revisionist by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I'm nieve, but I trust the F-Droid marketplace much more than official Google Play.

      You get what you pay for, in freedom or beer.

      Well, you get to chose from all of 2791 apps.

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    28. Re: Revisionist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice catch, palm was doing it before Nokia.

    29. Re:Revisionist by Luthair · · Score: 1

      Yeah, "app stores" existed before the iPhone, but who the fuck used them? To deny that Apple completely changed the landscape with the iPhone and the App Store and how it operates is more revisionist than anything.

      A huge portion of the cell phone users bought ring tones, there were very successful games like Bejeweled as well.

    30. Re:Revisionist by oldmac31310 · · Score: 1

      Disney World IS a terrible place. I have been there. Not a single positive memory of the experience.

      --
      http://www.acetonestudio.com
  2. And a bigger "thank you" for jailbreaking by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 0

    >> world owes it a collective thank you for its App Store

    And a bigger "thank you" for jailbreaking. App stores are for luddites.

  3. Just that, by ReneR · · Score: 0

    many Apps, especially on iOS are not that "quality", and also assuming software was already sold before, Apple managed to snitch in an extra 30% of all software sales, effectively taking from what developer would have earned anyway. Plus preventing some Apps, competition, as well as still not having a clear update path, except creating a new v2 app, or charging for subscription, ...

    1. Re:Just that, by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      I agree on all point, except for the part "effectively taking from what developer would have earned anyway". Most people wouldn't have found their application on the Apple App store and thus would have bought something else instead, so no earnings for the developer not on the App store.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    2. Re:Just that, by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 0

      As for the 30% that Apple takes, keep in mind they're managing the servers, the storage and internet costs for transfers and update, the payments, etc. They're also footing the bill for all the free apps in the store.

      How much would developers lose from PayPal or credit cards? Deduce that percentage from Apple's 30% and you'll have a better picture of Apple's share.

      Hint: it's not 0% but it sure isn't 30% either.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    3. Re:Just that, by ReneR · · Score: 1

      we have to run our own servers anyway, still do, any happily so. much more pleasant to deal with than apple's notorious monthly changes, ABI validation, forcing new xcode version, outages, hiccups, missing binaries, you name it. We otherwise mainly use PayPal which takes a maximum of ~6%, usually less ~3% (depending on country, and money source, e.g. CC vs. PayPal balance, etc, )

    4. Re:Just that, by ReneR · · Score: 0

      Apple and the AppStore are doing zero marketing, actually instead they now want more money for their integrated app promotion ad business. Developers have to do their own marketing, Actually AppStore visible became worse, with all the repetitive junk and scamware overloading it anyway :-/

    5. Re:Just that, by tepples · · Score: 1

      How much does PayPal take out of a 99 cent purchase? My research says 33 cents, which is a slightly greater share (1/3) than Apple's.

    6. Re:Just that, by ReneR · · Score: 1

      I was not talking micro transactions. our Apps cost 19, 29, 79, 99 $. Even for 99cent your example comes up with nearly the same value as Apple, and PayPal has some micro transaction tier that might be more attractive.

  4. Small value of forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Changed things for a very small value of forever.

  5. What a load of crap by ArhcAngel · · Score: 0, Troll

    Regardless of your feelings about Apple, the world owes it a collective thank you for its App Store. It inspired other companies, such as Google with Android and Microsoft with Windows 8/10, to adopt the same app concepts.

    "Inspired" them to develop their own vendor lock in methods you mean.

    When Apple introduced iTunes it became just another company trying to separate you from your dollar. Before that time it truly was about innovation and creativity. The app store was just another gimmick to squeeze money out of its popularity. Any other company trying to impose a 30% tariff on access to its platform would have been laughable. And their "No you can't put that app in our store because it would allow you to run other apps without our consent" is just precious. Once I saw the direction Apple was headed I did a 180 and stopped advocating for them. I'm glad I did. They've become the epitome of everything Jobs hated.

    --
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    1. Re:What a load of crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whenever I read someone complaining about Apple taking 30% of sales revenue I know that they're either a Johnny-come-lately to software distribution or a complete fucking moron.

      Before the App Store, getting to keep 30% of sales revenue was an unbelievably good deal. Getting 20% was considered a great deal.

      I know this because I've been working in games since the turn of the century and know what the deals with publishers and platform holders were like before and after online sales and before and after the App Store.

      Apple's 30% is still an absolutely outstanding deal for what you get from it: free hosting and bandwidth for distribution, payment processing and also one of the lowest-friction payment systems around.

    2. Re:What a load of crap by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

      More bullshit from the bullshit crowd. I've been in software about twice as long as you and I'm intimately familiar with software distribution. 30% is about 25% more than what used to be the standard. I notice you didn't refute any of my claims you just took to attacking me directly. That's always a sign of a person who has no facts to back up their claims.

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    3. Re:What a load of crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      30% was/is the standard. Been selling shareware softwares for 20 years now, credit card processor merchants always took 30%. Always.
      In floppy times, unless it was just your hobby, you had to have a distributor publisher. They took at least 50% easily. Now that was the dark times...

  6. Quantity over Quality by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 2

    While I can appreciate the quantity of apps on the App Store it seems somewhere along the lines we lost quality.
    i.e.
    I don't care all the Free-to-Play (F2P) race-to-the-bottom-of-the-barrel with shitty Micro-Transactions (MTX) and Hurry-Up-and-Wait gaming.

    At least we still have SOME good games left like:

    * Fortnite (only has cosmetic MTX)
    * Hocus
    * The Room
    * The Witness

    etc.

    1. Re:Quantity over Quality by antdude · · Score: 1

      Please list the rest of the free good iOS games. ;)

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  7. Microsoft owes Apple thanks? by Pollux · · Score: 0, Troll

    The world owes it a collective thank you for its App Store. It inspired other companies, such as Google with Android and Microsoft with Windows 8/10, to adopt the same app concepts.

    Yes, Microsoft owes Apple a big huge thanks, because until the App Store, Microsoft had never ever previously considered creating an operating system architecture that allowed end-users to download and install their own applications onto it.

    Gather around, kids, it's time to hear about the good ol' days from your grand-pappy. Before apps, we had something else called an application. They were kinda like apps, but they ran on these big old things called personal computers, you had to go to this thing called a store to buy them, and they came on these things called floppy disks. Then Apple invented the iPhone and App Store, and we all could finally emerge from our caves.

    1. Re:Microsoft owes Apple thanks? by tepples · · Score: 1

      When grand-pappy was new to computers, how did he distinguish an application from a trojan?

    2. Re:Microsoft owes Apple thanks? by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      The application said "PC/Mac" on the box. The Trojan said "condoms" on the box.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    3. Re:Microsoft owes Apple thanks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The world owes it a collective thank you for its App Store. It inspired other companies, such as Google with Android and Microsoft with Windows 8/10, to adopt the same app concepts.

      Yes, Microsoft owes Apple a big huge thanks, because until the App Store, Microsoft had never ever previously considered creating an operating system architecture that allowed end-users to download and install their own applications onto it.

      Gather around, kids, it's time to hear about the good ol' days from your grand-pappy. Before apps, we had something else called an application. They were kinda like apps, but they ran on these big old things called personal computers, you had to go to this thing called a store to buy them, and they came on these things called floppy disks. Then Apple invented the iPhone and App Store, and we all could finally emerge from our caves.

      If Microsoft hadn’t ran into anti-trust problems and burned many bridges because of it, they might have started a software marketplace a long time ago. Everybody knew that software was going to be delivered primarily via the Internet eventually, but PC app stores never appeared... besides Steam, for games that is. Why? With all the malware problems of the XP era, good god it seems obvious in retrospect, but it didn’t happen.

    4. Re:Microsoft owes Apple thanks? by tepples · · Score: 1

      The application said "PC/Mac" on the box.

      Who funded the manufacture of the box and the delivery to users, particularly before an application reached the first stable version?

      The Trojan said "condoms" on the box.

      Not all of them did. See "Trojan horse (computing)" on Wikipedia.

  8. The Dirty Truth about AppStores by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Dirty Truth about AppStores is that they are 100% gamed. EVERYONE buys downloads and ratings. All those things at the top of the markets are placed there by paid for marketing. You pay a bot to buy and rate and comment (sometimes using markov chains, in the case of Flappy Birds), in order to get your shit to the top.

    Then, the "journalists" praise the pieces of shit (like Flappy Birds) that get to the top rather than expose how gamed the market places are, and the filthy casual consumers just go along with the media narrative -- "Huh, I hate it, but it must just hit a sweet spot of gameplay simplicity, like the articles on Polygon & Kotaku said".

    It's not just games. ALL APPS IN THE TOP OF ALL APP STORES = Put there thanks to buying fake downloads. The stores don't care because they still get their cut if devs are going to pay for downloads as part of their marketing (devs get back the ~70%, marketeer takes their cut [sometimes off the top], and Apple keeps the ~30% in case of mass paid app purchase via Apple's App Store).

    Just search "pay for downloads" or "app marketing". Eventually you'll get to the seedy underbelly where 3rd world shithole workers manually purchase, rate, and run your app for X minutes at a desk with 50 other phones for a few bucks a day... That's right: App Stores promote e-Sweat Shops.

    1. Re: The Dirty Truth about AppStores by nullchar · · Score: 1

      Another great reason why walled garden stores are not a true marketplace.

      "The radio plays what they want you to hear."

  9. Revisionist History Much? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 0

    Regardless of your feelings about Apple, the world owes it a collective thank you for its App Store. It inspired other companies, such as Google with Android and Microsoft with Windows 8/10, to adopt the same app concepts. It really did change everything.

    Uh, there were "apps" (we used to call them programs) on Windows CE, Symbian, and Blackberry well before 2008. And there were STORES too, where you could buy those programs. Apple simply made it Kindergarten-level difficult for consumers and sold lock-down and restrictions as a benefit, rather than a curse.

    --
    Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    1. Re:Revisionist History Much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And those stores were terrible, often vendors would try to host and sell their own apps. Users would have to hunt down the app, probably on the crappy phone-browser (maybe only side-loading via a PC was possible), then contend with various J2ME libraries that may/may-not be already installed on the device. It was an awful user experience and was obviously an unsuccessful business model, given the success of current app stores. Absolute pain the the backside to develop for too, that's before you even started to consider implementing micro-payments, credit card processing etc.

    2. Re:Revisionist History Much? by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      Regardless of your feelings about Apple, the world owes it a collective thank you for its App Store. It inspired other companies, such as Google with Android and Microsoft with Windows 8/10, to adopt the same app concepts. It really did change everything.

      Uh, there were "apps" (we used to call them programs) on Windows CE, Symbian, and Blackberry well before 2008.

      Oh yeah. I remember apps for Windows CE. I once drove (literally) to an App Store where my dad bought an Windows CE app. He had to specify which CPU and display orientation his device had, and then they handed him a box with a storage card inside, and he paid over a hundred bucks for it. Oh, the good old days.

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
  10. Er, OK; thanks for the walled gardens, especially on Windows. It sure was terrible having control of our own machines (I'm sure that loophole will be closed soon on desktops thanks to how inspiring this all is).

    (Yes, I know, Grandma should root her devices, sideload, etc. so I should shut up.)

  11. Xbox Live Arcade preceded App Store too by tepples · · Score: 2

    GNU/Linux and *BSD repositories contain mostly free software. It's slightly less dishonest to claim that Apple popularized the repository of proprietary software, though it's still not completely honest because of Xbox Live Arcade that preceded it.

    1. Re:Xbox Live Arcade preceded App Store too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GNU/Linux and *BSD repositories contain mostly free software.

      And there you have it! Apple fan boys are still the same -- trying to qualify any non-Apple prior art with some arbitrary condition!

      So let me get this straight: OS repositories that existed elsewhere (long before the Apple store) don't count because one didn't have to pay for the software? Really?

      Wow! Apple is such an incredible innovator for inventing charging for software in a repository (even though they weren't the first to do even that)!

      This is just like saying that the LG Prada (the smart phone which was winning design awards months before the Iphone appeared) doesn't count because "it's browser sucked."

    2. Re:Xbox Live Arcade preceded App Store too by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      GNU/Linux and *BSD repositories contain mostly free software.

      And there you have it! Apple fan boys are still the same -- trying to qualify any non-Apple prior art with some arbitrary condition!

      So let me get this straight: OS repositories that existed elsewhere (long before the Apple store) don't count because one didn't have to pay for the software? Really?

      No, the point is that you couldn't pay for it. Yeah, I know you hate paying for stuff.

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    3. Re:Xbox Live Arcade preceded App Store too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the point is that you couldn't pay for it. Yeah, I know you hate paying for stuff.

      ... and how is that relevant to the invention of OS software repositories?

    4. Re:Xbox Live Arcade preceded App Store too by tepples · · Score: 1

      There are some general classes of software that the free software community has historically failed to provide. Three big ones among these are original high-production-value video games, players for rented motion pictures, and income tax return preparation. (I've described why these tend to be non-free in another article.) In order to provide these to end users, a repository needs to support packages that are not released under a free software license but instead paywalled. This in turn requires the repository's operator to make some friction-free provision for payment processing.

    5. Re:Xbox Live Arcade preceded App Store too by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      No, the point is that you couldn't pay for it. Yeah, I know you hate paying for stuff.

      ... and how is that relevant to the invention of OS software repositories?

      It's relevant as far as you moved the goalpost. And a little further.

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
  12. Re:Thank you? Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Exactly. The world owes nothing to apple. It has been a vile cancer in the tech industry for years.

  13. First iPhone also couldn't record video by ayesnymous · · Score: 1

    Amazing it still took off without that key feature. Youtube was already huge at that point. Many competitors' phones did record video.

    1. Re:First iPhone also couldn't record video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It took a while, because they were still exhausted from inventing rounded corners

  14. the win statistics are only a side show by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The real point is how the AI learned to play (without instructions and through visual input). The win stats are only significant in that they "prove" that the AI truly learned how to play the game and wasn't just wandering around doing random whatever.

  15. Thing A is (Insert multiple of 5) years old by Bryansix · · Score: 0

    Just because the App store is 10 years old doesn't make it a milestone. A Milestone is an achievement or progress or a checkpoint. Making it to 10 years in it's own walled garden ecosystem where it's own policies dictates its existence is not a milestone.

  16. Re:Thank you? Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that's m$.