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Some Startups Have Worked Out It's Cheaper and Easier To Get Humans To Behave Like Robots Than it is To Get Machines To Behave Like Humans (theguardian.com)

"Using a human to do the job lets you skip over a load of technical and business development challenges. It doesn't scale, obviously, but it allows you to build something and skip the hard part early on," said Gregory Koberger, CEO of ReadMe, who says he has come across a lot of "pseudo-AIs." It's essentially prototyping the AI with human beings, he said. From a report: This practice was brought to the fore this week in a Wall Street Journal article highlighting the hundreds of third-party app developers that Google allows to access people's inboxes. In the case of the San Jose-based company Edison Software, artificial intelligence engineers went through the personal email messages of hundreds of users -- with their identities redacted -- to improve a "smart replies" feature. The company did not mention that humans would view users' emails in its privacy policy. The third parties highlighted in the WSJ article are far from the first ones to do it. In 2008, Spinvox, a company that converted voicemails into text messages, was accused of using humans in overseas call centres rather than machines to do its work. In 2016, Bloomberg highlighted the plight of the humans spending 12 hours a day pretending to be chatbots for calendar scheduling services such as X.ai and Clara. The job was so mind-numbing that human employees said they were looking forward to being replaced by bots.

22 of 112 comments (clear)

  1. And it's easier and cheaper ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 5, Funny

    ... to manufacture humans.

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    1. Re:And it's easier and cheaper ... by JoeRandomHacker · · Score: 2
    2. Re:And it's easier and cheaper ... by SeaFox · · Score: 2

      The conception phase certainly is; manufacturing humans until fully functioning ... not so much.

      Those costs are outsourced to parents for the most part.
      It's cheaper for the company.. the only metric they really care about.

    3. Re:And it's easier and cheaper ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 2

      I agree.

      Robots require a shit load of humans to: (the short list):

      - Extract raw material
      - Refine that
      - Ship to plants
      - Fabricate intricate parts
      - Come up with "how to"
      - R&D
      - Build fabrication facilities
      - Market final products
      - Install and maintain
      - Apologize via Twitter for fuckups

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    4. Re:And it's easier and cheaper ... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Let's see here. Producing an entry-level human takes over 16 years of high-intensity work involving dozens of skilled workers. More if he needs a post-graduate degree. Doesn't sound that easy to me.

    5. Re: And it's easier and cheaper ... by plopez · · Score: 5, Funny

      And we can reduce the basic manufacturing time to one month by using 9 women. Think of the savings!

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
  2. There's also this factor by RyanFenton · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Folks that are smart enough to replace other humans with technology aren't really truly interested in doing it.

    Usually, it's someone in the same room. It's hard to want to upend their current income, just for a boss that you don't trust to give them another replacement task that isn't worse.

    Usually, what happens is that they instead make a set of tools that the other folks in the room to ALLOW them to automate their own tasks, hint them in to how they can get their work done in seconds, then never mention the implications of that to the boss. Sometimes the boss knows this and doesn't mind entirely in the scope of these hollow jobs.

    If this society wasn't so focused on having jobs in order to eat and keep a house, I'm sure a lot more jobs would get completely automated.

    That's a big part of why I'm in favor of a universal basic income, so life doesn't have to be about bullshit jobs for so much of so many lives.

    Ryan Fenton

    1. Re:There's also this factor by CODiNE · · Score: 2

      I automated a job away before, it was repetitious and boring much like the ones mentioned in the summary. The worker was rushing me along because they hated the task and wanted to use their time for other things. Soon after completed they had a dry spell and had to let the worker go, they also had to let me go since they were so lean. However a few years later they're running stronger again, perhaps the savings allowed them to stay in business. Nobody was upset or directly harmed by this one, it was simply a job that needed to be done by scripts not humans.

      On my current job it's much the same situation but I'm the one the automation is replacing. That's fine with me, there's still plenty of higher level and interesting work to be done as the machine learning takes over the boring parts. Will it take over everything? No it's too stupid and needs people to check it's work every now and then to recalibrate it's confidence levels.

      --
      Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
  3. Man Bites Dirt by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is one of the most appropriate late-stage capitalism headlines I've ever seen:

    Some Startups Have Worked Out It's Cheaper and Easier To Get Humans To Behave Like Robots Than it is To Get Machines To Behave Like Humans

    There is a lot to unpack there. You could teach a course in post-capitalist economics based on that one headline alone.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:Man Bites Dirt by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      "late stage" would indicate that this is a recent thing near the death throws of what is going on. It is not. It can only be what you are thinking if you IGNORE 150 years of the since the start of the industrial revolution.
      I propose that you re-think how you talk and what words you use.

      First, that's fucking rich from someone who doesn't know the difference between "throws" and "throes". Second, you are completely, utterly, and in all other ways wrong. Late-stage means it's coming to an end, it has nothing to do with what has come before but with what is coming soon.

      If you want to see what an anti capitalistic society would comprise of I suggest this book.

      That's what it could be comprised of. I propose that you re-think how you talk and what words you use.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  4. Only because we've got slave labor wages by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    overseas (and sometimes in America, thanks Gig Economy!). It's kinda like how in the 1800s everybody could afford a butler and a maid because the cost was just enough food for them to survive.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  5. In olden times by bferrell · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There used to be a "thing" called efficiency experts.

    The did something called, generically, time and motion studies.

    They would watch people work with a stopwatch and a notepad... Sometimes with a camera to record the smallest nuance of the work process.

    They would do this with lots and lots of workers and then compiles that information into detailed procedures telling the workers how to do what they did.

    Is this not robotic?

    I just love how every cohort thinks they've invented some new thing when all they've done is to re-implement an old practice that, because they never bother to look back at how things like this were done before, they didn't know about.

    One day they may even re-invent sex and try to patent it.

    1. Re:In olden times by Tablizer · · Score: 2

      There used to be a "thing" called efficiency experts. They did something called, generically, time and motion studies.

      My father used to be one under the title "industrial engineer". He started with factories, but as they offshored, worked with hospitals. Some people resented being told how to do their job, so there were office politics fireworks at times.

      He'd do it at home also, arguing that we wasted toilet paper; and we had strange arguments over the physics of wiping and average consistency of poop ("bar" charts, eeww). "Everyone is different, how do you know my consistency profile is the same as yours? You are guessing, admit it!"

      I kind of have the same "gene" and argue that our development stack wastes too many keystrokes, eye movements, and has unnecessary code pattern redundancies as alleged insurance against unlikely future events. The primary architect doesn't like me. He uses bullshit buzzwords to try to counter me. The fight ain't over...

      Anyhow, I'm not sure how it relates to most of the article, though. My dad's studies were not done in secret. Most of the article was not about training robots to be better or more efficient, but about faking AI by acting like or in place of a bot to trick investors and/or buy time when bots are not ready.

    2. Re:In olden times by waspleg · · Score: 2

      There is a hilarious and depressing Harvey Birdman episode about one. I have local copies but I think all the episodes are youtube. Completely worth watching all the way through.

  6. This isn't new by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 3, Informative

    In 1770, there was chess-playing robot called "the Turk", or the "Mechanical Turk." (It was in Austro-Hungrian, but stylized like a Turk). It was excellent at playing, and defeated Ben Franklin and Napoleon.

    Of course, secreted within the metal frame was an excellent human player. Now, Amazon has a service called Mechanical Turk where you can employ people to act as faux AI.

    --
    Your ad here. Ask me how!
  7. Amazon's Mechanical Turk by kenwd0elq · · Score: 3, Informative

    And how is this significantly different from Amazon's "Mechanical Turk"? Same basic concept; get people to do what AI cannot yet do.

  8. Re:No shit by kenwd0elq · · Score: 2

    Humans are the only AI systems that can be constructed with primitive materials using unskilled labor.

  9. I've replace coworker's jobs by FeelGood314 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Early in my career I had a few QA and grunt jobs. Those who worked with me had similar or worse jobs that usually involved getting data in one format and converting it to another format. These jobs were trivial to automate and yet some poor souls had been doing these things for years. In all but one case the people doing the eliminated jobs were given more meaningful work to do. The one exception was at a company that went bankrupt a month later and this lucky guy was the only one to get severance.

  10. Not at all the same by PPH · · Score: 5, Funny

    Robots are incentivized by the promise of an electric charge. Humans are threatened by the same thing.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  11. It's harder to get humans to behave like humans by karlandtanya · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "Zero Tolerance", "More than my job's worth", " Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM." etc. etc.

    It's easier to turn off analytical thought and plug-n-chug through the day.
    Make a decision is risky if it's wrong we'll catch hell; if we just follow procedure until five o'clock we get paid for another day.

    Acting like a human is more rewarding. Acting like a machine is easier and safer.

    --
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
  12. Obligatory short story link by Pluvius · · Score: 4, Insightful
  13. What's new: lack of human involvement by TheRealHocusLocus · · Score: 4, Informative

    It gets worse than whats-in-inventory. There is a SPECIAL CASE of mechanized disorder regarding items not in inventory. I first experienced this with pharmacies when I had to fill a regular prescription.

    I'd show up near the same day of the month like clockwork. Sometimes they'd be able to fill the prescription and sometimes they could not. When they could not I'd head to a competitor and pay a slightly higher price. But I'd always check them first. And sometimes the second store didn't have any either and I had to go to a third place. On the third successive month that I was informed they were out... I held back and watched the clerk who was the head pharmacist and I asked, "Did you write it down?" What do you mean, he said. "The fact that you had to turn away a customer, what the drug is and how many." Oh no, our computer system tells us when we're out and how much to order. "Why isn't it working then? This is the third time I've been turned down." He said, the computer varies the amount we order but it changes from month to month and we have surges of demand and then next month, very little, so we don't order any. "Isn't that strange for prescribed drugs? It means you have no customer loyalty because you turn them away and they stay away. And when someone is told you cannot fill the order, no one writes it down and adds it up. If your computer system doesn't have a way you can record the fact that you turned away a customer, then it is stupider than a human being. Your sales vary because people are being tossed back and forth between pharmacies ny necessity rather then preference. I'll bet your competitors have the same dumb system. If YOU start a log of what customers were turned away for and manually adjust your orders... I'll bet you'd improve your business." It was like a light went on in the attic. They were never short again.

    Years later now, many people -- even store managers -- are past the robot stage. I'm one of the only customers that takes managers aside and describes chronic shortages. The answers vary but it's often a shrug of helplessness, especially with computer inventory control and stocking brands like soda and milk. . Chain stores have started to ask customers at checkout, "Did you find everything?" and sometimes they'll become confused if I ask for a slip of paper to write my own note to the manager. Otherwise it falls down the memory hole. I've told managers, "A store without chocolate milk will get walkouts. People will abandon their carts and leave." and the manager was not convinced. "People cannot get full size chocolate milk in convenience stores at a decent price. They have to go to another grocery store anyway, they don't want to wait in two lines, so they'll just leave. Asking at checkout if they found everything isn't enough. How many people leave empty handed?" Hmmm....

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    <blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>