Slashdot Mirror


A Nanoscale Look At a Complete Fly Brain (cemag.us)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Controlled Environments Magazine: Two high-speed electron microscopes. 7,062 brain slices. 21 million images. For a team of scientists at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute's Janelia Research Campus in Ashburn, Virginia, these numbers add up to a technical first: a high-resolution digital snapshot of the adult fruit fly brain. Researchers can now trace the path of any one neuron to any other neuron throughout the whole brain, says neuroscientist Davi Bock, a group leader at Janelia who reported the work along with his colleagues on July 19 in the journal Cell.

The fruit fly brain, roughly the size of a poppy seed, contains about 100,000 neurons (humans have 100 billion). Each neuron branches into a starburst of fine wires that touch the wires of other neurons. Neurons talk to one another through these touchpoints, or synapses, forming a dense mesh of communication circuits. Scientists can view these wires and synapses with an imaging technique called serial section transmission electron microscopy. First, they infuse the fly's brain with a cocktail of heavy metals. These metals pack into cell membranes and synapses, ultimately marking the outlines of each neuron and its connections. Then the researchers hit slices of the brain with a beam of electrons, which passes through everything except the metal-loaded parts. "It's the same way that x-rays go through your body except where they hit bone," Bock explains. The resulting images expose the brain's once-hidden nooks and crannies.

73 comments

  1. Re:Is the fly going to be OK? by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

    No animals were harmed in the making of this study.

    --
    Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
  2. 100k neurons only by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And yet the fly adapts to so many different situations, flies,"eats", copulates etc.... that emphasizes how powerful the 3D brain structure is, and how our current AI is not.

    --
    Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    1. Re:100k neurons only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      As smart as they are, they can't seem to adapt to the flypaper in my house ;)

    2. Re:100k neurons only by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is more of natural selection... genetics takes time!

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    3. Re:100k neurons only by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is more of natural selection... genetics takes time!

      If an organism relies on genetics to solve every novel problem, then it is stupid.

    4. Re:100k neurons only by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      Well, it relies on genetics as there is no much other ways to educate their "children" (some eggs abandoned to themselves). Yet, genetics is able to drive the brain construction and "teach" it to avoid some dangers. Not that stupid.

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    5. Re:100k neurons only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      stop defending fruit flies

    6. Re:100k neurons only by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Do you think Darwin Award winners are smart?

      Evolution is just brute force trial and error with 99% collateral damage. There is nothing "intelligent" about it. The individuals unable to adapt to their environment without being Darwined out of existence are not intelligent either.

    7. Re:100k neurons only by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      Yeah, re-reading your previous post I see your point. And I agree, from that angle.

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    8. Re:100k neurons only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      stop defending fruit flies

      #fruitfliesmatter

    9. Re:100k neurons only by pauljlucas · · Score: 1

      Natural selection is the thing that drives evolution. You don't have natural selection instead of evolution.

      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    10. Re:100k neurons only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our current AI could absolutely take the architecture of a fly brain, if only we were able to map out the exact pattern of connections. :)

    11. Re:100k neurons only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Snarf, snarf, genetics takes time!

      Fruit flies are stupid, ppppppppppbbbt

      +11 u guyz r so smart

      Thank you mods for making this retarded conversation filter up on alterslash

    12. Re:100k neurons only by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      Well you see, if our friends start their nuclear games, human race (and others) disappear. That's selection and it's not natural. But that's still evolution.

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    13. Re:100k neurons only by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      And yet 100k neurons connections handled by one of our current computers would be thinking slower than a fly.

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    14. Re:100k neurons only by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      If they're so smart, why are they flies?

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    15. Re:100k neurons only by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      Because even the smarter humans were not able to reproduce a fly brain.

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    16. Re: 100k neurons only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but its still smarter than PopeRatzo.

    17. Re:100k neurons only by antdude · · Score: 1

      And they can't figure out how to get out with open windows. :P

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    18. Re:100k neurons only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop supporting terrorism!!! Instead support #allfliesmatter

  3. Tiny worm C. Elegans is still a mystery by aberglas · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It has about 300 neurons, 1000 cells all up (so about a third are neurons). Its connectome (wiring diagram) has been known for decades, and unlike human brains is identical in each worm. But how it actually thinks remains a mystery.

    So good work to understand a fruit fly, and no doubt useful. But do not mistake it for understanding.

    While understanding neurons might be helpful for building an AI, I think it is unlikely that an AI will be any direct mapping. Aeroplanes are not built out of feathers.

    1. Re:Tiny worm C. Elegans is still a mystery by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Much progress has been made at understanding C. elegans. The OpenWorm project has simulated the neuron to muscle pathway, and they estimate they are about 30% of the way to a complete simulation.

      Simulating a fly brain will be a big step beyond that.

    2. Re:Tiny worm C. Elegans is still a mystery by raftpeople · · Score: 4, Informative

      Unless the OpenWorm project is also simulating the astrocytes that modulate and manage synapse activity, it's probably not going to be successful. For further info, google astrocyte tripartite synapse and you will find that neuroscientists now consider the astrocyte to be managing/controlling the synapse, (responding to neurotransmitters and signalling neurons on either side of the synapse as well as other glial cells).

    3. Re: Tiny worm C. Elegans is still a mystery by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Airplanes were invented by mimicing birds.

    4. Re:Tiny worm C. Elegans is still a mystery by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      Interesting information, but did you read the linked article? The project's ultimate goal is simulating all of the cells, and the post you replied to claims they are 30% of the way there.

      BTW, C. Elegans only has 50 glial cells.

    5. Re:Tiny worm C. Elegans is still a mystery by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Unless the OpenWorm project is also simulating the astrocytes ...

      They are. OpenWorm is a project to digitally simulate the entire organism at the biochemical level. All the cells. Every chemical pathway.

      Worms first. Then flies. Then humans.

    6. Re:Tiny worm C. Elegans is still a mystery by sheramil · · Score: 2

      But how it actually thinks remains a mystery.

      How much time do you think C. elegans spends contemplating "does existence precede essence?"

    7. Re:Tiny worm C. Elegans is still a mystery by Dan+East · · Score: 1

      simulate the entire organism at the biochemical level

      I call BS. Every chemical reaction in the entire organism is simulated? Cells replicate? Proteins fold and unfold? Enzymes trigger chemical reactions? The organisms reproduce? Suuuuuure.

      --
      Better known as 318230.
    8. Re:Tiny worm C. Elegans is still a mystery by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      none. And yet, despite the incredibly low bar, researchers can only estimate they have about 30% completion. The 80/20 rule almost certainly applies and they are nowhere near the "easy" first 80%. Even worse, the estimate of 30% is almost as certainly too high. The less one understands the more one has an inflated estimate of the understanding.

      Or, as someone else pointed out, they claim to be 30% complete on a complete biochemical simulation. Once you consider the scope it is hard to credit they are even 3% complete. Even simple simulations (like only newtonian mechanics) that are commonly employed (numerous games) are never *complete* simulations.

    9. Re:Tiny worm C. Elegans is still a mystery by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Its connectome (wiring diagram) has been known for decades, and unlike human brains is identical in each worm.

      fMRI shows us that the human connectome is about 87% identical, and we all store words and other information in pretty much the same place, with slight variation. Humans are far more pre-wired than we believed until recently fMRI studies. The idea that we are all widely different in our thinking and brain adaptation has turned out to be false as we peer deeper into the brain.

    10. Re:Tiny worm C. Elegans is still a mystery by raftpeople · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm very aware of the OpenWorm project and I think it's a great idea to start with the smallest brain rather than others that think they can jump right into simulating a rat brain or a human brain.

      Having said that, they will first need to figure out how the astrocytes performs their computations and neuroscientists are absolutely nowhere near that level of information. In addition, even in the neuron, DNA is involved in computations (synapse strength is altered by turning on/off genes via epigenetic mechanisms and those alternations are what sustain the synapse at the current strength). So, OpenWorm idea is good but they are a looooong way off from having enough info to simulate the computations that happen.

    11. Re: Tiny worm C. Elegans is still a mystery by jbengt · · Score: 1

      No, they started the process mimicking birds, but most of those failed spectacularly. How many birds do you know that have internal combustion engines driving propellers and fixed bi-plane wings?

    12. Re:Tiny worm C. Elegans is still a mystery by rahvin112 · · Score: 2

      We won't be successful with a real AI until we return to analog computing. The brain in biological organisms is analog and operates roughly equivalent to a pokey 600mhz. The difference is the 100 billion connections with upwards of dozens of routing paths per neuron and analog communication. We are a long way from being able to create something similar. Although we wouldn't need the full 100 billion because much of the brains computing power is devoted not to inteligence but simply managing living processes it still going to be a very long time before we will ever get close to this.

    13. Re:Tiny worm C. Elegans is still a mystery by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      OpenWorm is a project to fantasize about simulating the entire organism

      FTFY.
      There is zero reason to believe that this will be achieved anytime this century.

  4. the Crazy one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Their luck they just spent all that time scanning the brain of an insane fruit fly.

    1. Re:the Crazy one by CODiNE · · Score: 3, Funny

      *Looks at label on the brain jar*
      "Abby Normal... what a nice name for a fruit fly. I'll use this brain."

      --
      Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
  5. Kids, take note on heavy metals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First, they infuse the fly's brain with a cocktail of heavy metals. These metals pack into cell membranes and synapses, ultimately marking the outlines of each neuron and its connections.

    And that's why heavy metals are bad for your brain! You'll be very dead before reaching that degree of "heavy metal brain infusion".

    1. Re:Kids, take note on heavy metals by Opportunist · · Score: 0

      Heavy metal is still less dangerous to your mental health than Country&Western!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Kids, take note on heavy metals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ah, both kinds of music!

    3. Re: Kids, take note on heavy metals by nowwith25percentmore · · Score: 1

      "Fly Brain" does sound like it could be the name of a heavy metal band, doesn't it?

    4. Re: Kids, take note on heavy metals by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      "Fat Girls Taking Dumps" would also be a great band name
      --- Trevor Moore

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  6. In an effort to raise the plunging American IQ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    researchers study the inner workings of the next larger brain compared to theirs.

    1. Re:In an effort to raise the plunging American IQ by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      Brain size and IQ are not necessarily correlated.

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    2. Re:In an effort to raise the plunging American IQ by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      (among humans at least)

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    3. Re:In an effort to raise the plunging American IQ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Statistically speaking, it's unlikely that the researchers (or other scientists) voted for Trump.

  7. Re:TRUMP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Btw, reminds me of Donald TRUMP's *BRAIN* - something only Russia would dare elect!

    Nah, it has a Life Alert bracelet, and it's wearing a hospital gown.

    It's - Hillary!'s brain! Making excuses for sexual predators!

    Looks like Hillary! has lost more than the election...

    BWAAA HAAA HAAAA!!!!

  8. I'd like to get my brain mapped, but by sabbede · · Score: 1
    I'm not sure I want to do it this way. There seems to be an awful lot of slicing involved, and then there's a ton of heavy metal poisoning on top of it.

    I think I might just wait for a less lethal method.

    1. Re:I'd like to get my brain mapped, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure I want to do it this way. There seems to be an awful lot of slicing involved, and then there's a ton of heavy metal poisoning on top of it.

      I think I might just wait for a less lethal method.

      Wait. Did the fruit fly not recover from the operation? Why wasn't this mentioned in the article?

  9. One important question remains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... Then the researchers hit slices of the brain with a beam of electrons, which passes through everything except the metal-loaded parts.

    Did they remove the MAGA cap before they started scanning?

  10. I don't understand, where's the tea? by Thud457 · · Score: 2

    You'd be programmed to not notice the difference.

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    1. Re:I don't understand, where's the tea? by sabbede · · Score: 1
      Applause!

      +1,000,000 points for style.

  11. This is a Models Brain! by Zorro · · Score: 1

    Actual size!

    1. Re:This is a Models Brain! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember, We don't study models for their brains..

  12. Every single neuron by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not to be confused with the larger-scale map of mouse brain (brain-map.org)

  13. Re: (call me) the Crazy one by mnemotronic · · Score: 1

    "The Insane Fruit Flys" would be a good name for a band except for the possibility of mispronunciation "Insane Fruit Fries" or "Insane Foot Fries".

    --
    The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
  14. Why we can't build truly thinking AI by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    This article, and the description of what they have to go through just to map a paltry 1x10^5 neurons (as compared to the 1x10^11 in a human brain), is an excellent example of one of the problems with understanding how a biological brain, like humans posess, produces phenomena like sentience, self-awareness, cognition, and real ability to think. For starters, they can't map it without killing the host first, because they have to dismantle the brain in order to map it. Furthermore, since a living brain is extremely fluid and dynamic in it's operating state, mapping it statically just gives you a snapshot, it doesn't show you all the dynamics of how it actually operates. If we want to be able to truly unlock the mysteries of how our own brain works, we need better instrumentality to give us the means to both map the neuronal connections and see the entire brain operating in realtime, without having to kill the host and dismantle the brain in the first place. Until then we're just shooting in the dark with the current approach to artificial intelligence, which is why it's so weak compared to a biological brain.

  15. As in Ghost in the shell by paolo.redaelli · · Score: 1

    The world depicted in Ghost in the Shell is approaching

  16. Aeroplanes are not made out of feathers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is unlikely that artificial intelligence will use the same underlying technology as neurons.

    Incidentally, neurons fire at about 0.001 MHz, not 600mHz. It is really amazing that we can react to stimuli in a few hundred milliseconds, as that means only a few thousand end to end neuron firings. I.e or brains have. networks that only have a hundred odd layers that can do amazing things.

  17. WOW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All, they have unlocked the secret of Democrats!

  18. Re:Is the fly going to be OK? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Get a better alternative than a corrupt piece of S**T Clinton then. All the Publicans are going to stay in the Trump boat because they fear the alternative. Get a candidate that looks good without the DNC spin doctors, that can get the DNC nomination without cheating the better candidates (Bernie), and then maybe more people on the other side will support replacing the orange monkey. But until then, it's still better than letting "her" win control.