WhatsApp Balks at India's Demand To Break Encryption (venturebeat.com)

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WhatsApp Balks at India's Demand To Break Encryption (venturebeat.com)

Posted by msmash on Monday July 23, 2018 @05:10PM from the tussle-continues dept.

An anonymous reader shares a report: As WhatsApp scrambles to figure out technology solutions to address some of the problems its service has inadvertently caused in developing markets, India's government has proposed one of its own: bring traceability to the platform so false information can be traced to its source. But WhatsApp indicated to VentureBeat over the weekend that complying with that request would undermine the service's core value of protecting user privacy. "We remain deeply committed to people's privacy and security, which is why we will continue to maintain end-to-end encryption for all of our users," the company said.

The request for traceability, which came from India's Ministry of Electronics & IT last week, was more than a suggestion. The Ministry said Facebook-owned WhatsApp would face legal actions if it failed to deliver. "When rumours and fake news get propagated by mischief mongers, the medium used for such propagation cannot evade responsibility and accountability. If they remain mute spectators they are liable to be treated as abettors and thereafter face consequent legal action," the government said. India is WhatsApp's largest market, with more than 250 million users. The country is struggling to contain the spread of fake news on digital platforms. Hoax messages and videos on the platform have incited multiple riots, costing more than two dozen lives in the country this year alone. Allowing message tracing, though, would likely undo the privacy and security that WhatsApp's one billion users worldwide expect from the service. Bringing traceability and accountability to WhatsApp would mean breaking end-to-end encryption on the platform, the company told VentureBeat.

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side with the authorities here by gravewax · 2018-07-23 17:31 · Score: 3, Insightful

India has a serious problem at the moment with malicious rumours spread by social media where the intent is to get people injured or killed. tracability with a warrant I don't see as a breach of privacy or security as the person put it out to the world for everyone to see intentionally anyway, no where does it say you have a right to anonymously causes such mischief. All WhatsApp need to do is attach unique identifiers to messages when created so that when forwarded they can be traced back to the source, obviously the police already have the message so they don't need to break encryption or breach anyones privacy, what they need to know is who started the whole shitshow X that got Y people murdered.
1. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 17:46 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  All WhatsApp need to do is attach unique identifiers to messages when created so that when forwarded they can be traced back to the source
  This is sort of why separation of powers and freedom of speech is so very vital. Yes, your example would be a valid reason for a court order and tracing, if it were possible.
  Of course, in a country where heads of state regularly assassinate political enemies, such tracing helps them too, and if there is a way to do it, a government can likely figure it out.
  Even in the US we just had our leader threaten to cancel security clearances of those who spoke out against him, which for some in the private sector, who may do unrelated work that requires a security clearance, well, that would mean they are out of work for exercising freedom of speech. He has also threatened to open up libel laws and various other ways to get even. Any republican who speaks against him gets replaced and he has like a 90% approval rating among republicans who say they are defending freedom.
  I'm not saying we shouldn't track these people down. I'm just saying you get the bad with the good. Encryption was originally classed as a munition, and in some ways it still is. Encryption these days is almost a requirement to be able to speak freely in some areas, since otherwise you might get reprisal from your boss or someone in government.
  Hell look at Peter Strok (sp?) Admittedly they didn't use encryption. He just didn't think they would start searching all his work texts, but he was basically guilty of seeing Trump run for office, forming opinions, and not significantly letting those opinions affect his work. Certainly any aid in tracing a message back to its source could have far reaching consequences in the future.
2. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 17:48 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  you ill be disappointed to hear then many of the people injured or killed were foreigners not Indians. One of the common incidents is a small community is told the backpackers coming to their area are not backpackers but child kidnappers looking to steal children and sell them into slavery (another common problem in india). The village then pounces on the next unsuspecting foreigners that turn up and beat them to death, end result dead foreigners and poor people having their only bread winners sent to jail.
3. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 17:53 · Score: 0
  
  traceability DOES NOT require the breaking of encryption or he recording or visibility of the messages. e.g. each WhatsApp client could stamp a GUID in the metadata of the message, that GUID is recorded by WhatsApp, but the messages are not. Now someone turns up dead and the defense is "I got this WhatsApp message that said these people were coming to rape and kidnap my children", the authorities can see the message and ask WhatsApp who originally created the message. no encryption or security or privacy has been breached.
4. Re:side with the authorities here by Daneel+Olivaw+R.+ · 2018-07-23 18:00 · Score: 0
  
  I understand how that sounded like a good idea in your head, trust me, it is a slippery slope. News and ad board campaigns to teach the public is a better solution imho.
5. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 18:06 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  I understand how that sounded like a good idea in your head, trust me, it is a slippery slope. News and ad board campaigns to teach the public is a better solution imho.
  you mean the solution they have been trying for months and has been completely unsuccessful? accountability is the only way to prevent the spread of these types of rumours, remembering most of these rumours target specific very real fears that many in remote indian communities have.
6. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 18:10 · Score: 1
  
  realistically traceability is the only real option, education and ad boards don't work when there really are people out there kidnapping there children, so why would they believe that some warnings are fake? The alternate option will be sites/apps like WhatsApp that refuse traceability will be shutdown in india (they have already had to disconnect regions temporarily from the internet to stop the spread of rumours).
7. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 18:16 · Score: 0
  
  So the company stores who sent every message...
  So encryption is likely involved in routing that information back to the company, likely with the encryption based on the company's public key at some point. So now various government have an extremely high motivation to get the counter key or keys stored in the company. Add a touch of espionage and now various governments that have captured all the traffic anyway, can lookup exactly who sent what...
  Your correct in that it doesn't automatically identify the sender, but that distinction may not last long term. Of course that may be deemed an acceptable trade off.
8. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 18:27 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  you are misunderstanding. You do not need to record anything within the encryption or about the user and this doesn't provide any mechanism to view the messages themselves. merely a endpoint that the message originated from. the company has no keys to view the message so even if they wanted to they can't provide access to the message itself or for that matter it doesn't even need to record that the message was even sent, all they store is tracability endpoints. e.g. GUID 1 = client a, GUID 2 = client b, then when supplied with a warrant of who is GUID 2 they can say it is client b.
9. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 18:30 · Score: 1
  
  accountability is the only thing that stops some people. imagine how fucked up the US would be if we were not seriously cracking down on people that call in SWAT's. anonymity brings out some of societies true scumbags and psychopaths that have no regard for human life and think the suffering of others is a fine joke.
10. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 18:58 · Score: 0
  
  .. anyway, no where does it say you have a right to anonymously causes such mischief. All WhatsApp need to do is attach unique identifiers to messages when created so that when forwarded they can be traced back to the source, obviously the police already have the message so they don't need to break encryption or breach anyones privacy, what they need to know is who started the whole shitshow X that got Y people murdered.
  No. Just.. just NO. You're delusional if you think that will solve anything of the sort. The people who engage in mob justice like that are mentally unstable to begin with.
  Many Asian countries have the same damn "problem". They have such a massive population density that statistically you could say the sky is green and have people believe you. That is how fucked up it is. What's changed is societies ability to deal with these people before they get a chance to do real harm.. And that comes from SJWs.
  At its base is these people lack the ability to understand what crying wolf or yelling fire in a theater, means. Hell the media in most countries can lie, incite violence and outright extort people without facing any repercussions. So no, keep this shit in shithole countries. Thanks.
11. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 19:02 · Score: 0
  
  I think you are the delusional one. Mob justice is just a symptom of a far greater problem, and that mob justice is being exploited for the amusement of a small number of sick fucks. you need to fix both the problem of mob justice which in many cases stems from a long history of them being exploited, having their children stolen or raped and not being able to prevent it (so hardly suprising that when they think they have a chance at retribution that they take it.). You also need to address the issue of the sick fucks being able to hide behind anonymity.
12. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 19:03 · Score: 1
  
  boo hoo the "breadwinners" are in jail ... for murder.
13. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 19:07 · Score: 0
  
  At its base is these people lack the ability to understand what crying wolf or yelling fire in a theater, means. Hell the media in most countries can lie, incite violence and outright extort people without facing any repercussions. So no, keep this shit in shithole countries. Thanks.
  This is no different to SWATTING really, so are you calling the US a shithole country too? The reality though is these sort of people exist EVERYWHERE and they think anonymity provides them with a shield from consequences and repercussions from their actions.
14. Re:side with the authorities here by thegarbz · 2018-07-23 19:09 · Score: 1
  
  tracability with a warrant
  
  I thought you just asked me to side with the indian government, are you talking about a different one now?
15. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 19:16 · Score: 0
  
  You also need to address the issue of the sick fucks being able to hide behind anonymity.
  Not entirely sure you comprehend what I said because at no point was that ever in question:
  
  What's changed is societies ability to deal with these people before they get a chance to do real harm.
16. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 19:25 · Score: 0
  
  you have explicitly said no to traceability, without traceability you can never solve the problem of sick fucks having no accountability, it is delusional to think you can as no country on earth has managed to solve that problem yet as if they had we would not have issues like SWATTING.
17. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 19:26 · Score: 0
  
  This is no different to SWATTING really, so are you calling the US a shithole country too? The reality though is these sort of people exist EVERYWHERE and they think anonymity provides them with a shield from consequences and repercussions from their actions.
  I never said that. Cars allow people to be murdered too, should we outlaw them? You're conflating two things anyway. SWATTING is most certainly a crime comitted by typically younger people. The only simularities in both cases is the overeaction. Police have a duty to properly respond, it's what they are paid for. Society lacks the ability to beat the ever living shit out of both people who "SWAT", and those above.
  Being anonymous has little to do with it.
18. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 19:30 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  If an anonymous "tip off" with no evidence is enough to incite you to murder I have no sympathy
19. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 19:38 · Score: 0
  
  What the fuck you mean you never said that?
  
  "At its base is these people lack the ability to understand what crying wolf or yelling fire in a theater, means. Hell the media in most countries can lie, incite violence and outright extort people without facing any repercussions. So no, keep this shit in shithole countries. Thanks."
  being anonymous has EVERYTHING to do with it. In both cases of SWATTING and the Indian rumours the instigators believe they will be free of any consequences as they are unlikely to get caught and hence why they are willing to do it.
20. Re:side with the authorities here by sjames · 2018-07-23 19:38 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  I smell BS!
  What'sApp is by no means anonymous. You can see exactly who sent you the message. So, the procedure is as follows. Arrest rioters. Access rioter's phones. See who sent them the message(s) that kicked off the riots. Get a warrant for those phones. Iterate that until you converge on the offender.
  If that's not good enough, ask What'sApp to create What'sAppIndia which tells the user that due to demands from their government they (and only they) will have Big other invited to the party and if they don't like it, they should speak to their government about it.
21. Re: side with the authorities here by Vinegar+Joe · 2018-07-23 19:47 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  you ill be disappointed to hear then many of the people injured or killed were foreigners not Indians. One of the common incidents is a small community is told the backpackers coming to their area are not backpackers but child kidnappers looking to steal children and sell them into slavery (another common problem in india). The village then pounces on the next unsuspecting foreigners that turn up and beat them to death, end result dead foreigners and poor people having their only bread winners sent to jail.
  And you wonder why people might think India is a shithole?
  
  --
  "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
22. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 19:53 · Score: 0
  
  you can see who sent you the message only if you haven't deleted your message history. The process you describe is far more privacy invasive than tracing the message and does not guarantee identifying the originators as it relies on everyone having kept their messages.
23. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 20:06 · Score: 0
  
  What the fuck you mean you never said that?
  being anonymous has EVERYTHING to do with it. In both cases of SWATTING and the Indian rumours the instigators believe they will be free of any consequences as they are unlikely to get caught and hence why they are willing to do it.
  You think SWATTING is a new thing?? That is cute. The whole reason I gave those examples was to say it isn't. They will find another way to be a dick. As I said, they are mentally unstable. You make it sound like every anon on the Internet is one step from causing such incidents, which is bullshit. Literature is filled with authors whom existed by nothing more then anonymous pseudonyms. Aka pen name.
24. Re:side with the authorities here by sjames · 2018-07-23 20:08 · Score: 1
  
  It just relies on enough people keeping their messages. The benefit is that it doesn't allow Big Brother to quietly track everything, it has to be overt and the effort required restricts it naturally to serious incidents. Everyone who ends up involved was either a rioter or someone who passed on information that caused a riot.
25. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 20:13 · Score: 0
  
  you think spreading false rumours is a new thing?? that is so cute. The whole reason I gave you that example is because of your shit for brains attitude that seems to think this is an India specific problem or anything to do with mental instability. SWATTING and these rumours are started by the same types of people, they are borderline psychopaths and adolescents looking to exploit situations to cause others pain, they are fuelled by their anonymity. Literature is filled with pseudonyms, almost none of which are truly anonymous, should they need to be traced they can easily be traced so yet another brain fart from you. Try thinking before typing.
26. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 20:15 · Score: 0, Informative
  
  Same shit applies to Chicago/Detroit/rural America. Pick your racial prejudice.
27. Re:side with the authorities here by gravewax · 2018-07-23 20:15 · Score: 1
  
  The benefit is that it doesn't allow Big Brother to quietly track everything.
  neither does a unique identifier only stored client side with the message and better still it doesn't subject thousands of people to privacy invasive searches..
28. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 20:26 · Score: 0
  
  Nope.
  Once you make it possible to break the encryption, the encryption is useless.
29. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 20:40 · Score: 0
  
  How is the government getting a warrant to inspect specific peoples phones more invasive than whatsapp keeping a database of who sent every single message?
  Sounds completely backwards to me.
30. Re:side with the authorities here by gravewax · 2018-07-23 20:47 · Score: 1
  
  They don't have to keep any such database. The content of the message could include metadata that links to the originating WhatsApp client. By having access to one of the phones that received the message it can be opened and traced to the client, there is still no record of anything else anyone sent except on the devices themselves so the only information about messages sent is from the devices they have access to. WhatsApp has no information apart from linkage and the cops have no information apart from the messages they already have access too.
31. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 20:50 · Score: 1
  
  If an anonymous "tip off" with no evidence is enough to incite you to murder I have no sympathy
  And if a country is full of such people, it's this country's problem and not ours. We shouldn't give up our freedoms, cripple our technical tools and ruin our online experience to solve this country's problems. India should educate its population, not join the dark forces of censorship and privacy invasion.
32. Re:side with the authorities here by johanw · 2018-07-23 21:24 · Score: 2
  
  It would help a lot more if the US police stops acting like the German SS during WW2.
33. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 21:26 · Score: 1
  
  the authorities can see the message and ask WhatsApp who originally created the message. no encryption or security or privacy has been breached.
  Those two sentences are at odds with each other.
34. Re:side with the authorities here by johanw · 2018-07-23 21:27 · Score: 1
  
  The US is a shithole country with a police force that acts no differentthen the German SS during WW2. And that same police force (most notably by the FBI) is waging a campaign against encryption too so they can more effectively attack anti-elite activists.
35. Re:side with the authorities here by johanw · 2018-07-23 21:28 · Score: 1
  
  What's the value of a warrant if they are rubber stamped like in the US?
36. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 21:37 · Score: 1
  
  Let me rephrase that:
  If an anonymous 'rumour' with no evidence is enough to incite you to murder I have no sympathy
37. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 21:39 · Score: 0
  
  No they aren't, they can only see the message because one of those involved in the riots/murders has given him access to his WhatsApp, at that point the police can get the ID of the originator. WhatsApp can then confirm the details they already have on record for the originator ID. encryption is never breached, the only information WhatsApp possess is exactly what they possess now and the only information the cops have is what they already have plus the identifying information of the sending device. the only extra information gained by anyone is the linkage to the originating device.
38. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 21:46 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Did you actually read what the parent poster wrote?
  If you gain the possibility to track villains, you gain the possibility to track dissidents and opponents as well.
  It doesn't matter if you can *directly* see the message, just as it didn't matter with the text saying kidnappers are at large to steal your children. In both instances, once the cat is out of the bag, you could trace the message back to its origin. Whether it's a text of a scammer or of a whistleblower.
  It's not difficult to comprehend, no?
39. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 21:46 · Score: 0
  
  If you break security for malicious rumors, you open the gates for generalized abuse by government (or others) of privacy. You cannot confine security breach to a small use case like that. If broken, then its broken for all usage: political concurrent spying, dissenters tracing, unreasonable search, ...
40. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 21:54 · Score: 0
  
  you think spreading false rumours is a new thing?? that is so cute.
  I never said that. I've said now three times the opposite.
  
  The whole reason I gave you that example is because of your shit for brains attitude that seems to think this is an India specific problem
  
  I never said that either
  
  or anything to do with mental instability.
  So you think mentally stable people do this? Interesting.
  
  SWATTING and these rumours are started by the same types of people, they are borderline psychopaths and adolescents looking to exploit situations to cause others pain, they are fuelled by their anonymity.
  
  Wait what?? Are you agreeing with me or not?? I agree with this.
  
  Literature is filled with pseudonyms, almost none of which are truly anonymous, should they need to be traced they can easily be traced so yet another brain fart from you.
  I don't think you understand what a pen name is or you're trolling...
  
  Try thinking before typing.
  Practice what you preach.
41. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 21:59 · Score: 1
  
  Education takes years, but is a long-term solution.
  Forcing weak encryption or adding tracking to an information-system is only an ill-fated attempt at a stop-gap measure that will only be circumvented and fail, and leads to a slippery slope of governments eroding freedom of speech.
42. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 22:02 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  No different to the US. US history is littered with such incidents, especially for African Americans and Indians and NO I don't mean ancient history, a few searches will bring up many modern incidents usually the results of redneck racists and the attitudes that people from elsewhere are "outsiders".
43. Re:side with the authorities here by MMC+Monster · 2018-07-23 22:05 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  On the one hand this looks both reasonable and quite easy to implement.
  On the other hand ... what if this wasn't India. What if this was an oppressive regime which wants to arrest/kill dissenters?
  If they have the message ID of one person, they can track everyone that person was in contact with, identifying their entire "cell".
  All they would need is a court order.
  
  --
  Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
44. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 22:09 · Score: 0
  
  "education don't work"
  This is a more sad and cynical statement I'd ever thought I'd read.
  Education, my dear, is the ONLY thing that TRULY works. There are kidnappers in the West too, yet you don't see angry mobs killing innocent bypassers because of some rumour on whatsapp. The difference being: education.
  Education and the rule of law gets rid of the typical irrational mob-mentality, which is the *actual* underlying cause of these murders (and not whatsapp).
45. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 22:14 · Score: 0
  
  Can't they just evict all the muslims?
46. Re: side with the authorities here by DNS-and-BIND · 2018-07-23 22:16 · Score: 0, Flamebait
  
  So rednecks steal children and sell them into slavery? Wow, I had no idea it had gotten that bad. Where's the FBI on this? This is huge.
  
  --
  Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
47. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 22:18 · Score: 0
  
  sweet, show me an education system somewhere in the world that has worked for this type of problem? Certainly hasn't worked in the UK or the US, perhaps there are other better education systems somewhere?
48. Re: side with the authorities here by DNS-and-BIND · 2018-07-23 22:19 · Score: 1
  
  They've been rounding people up, digging pits, and murdering them with machine guns? Holy crap, I had no idea it had gotten so bad. Trump suppressing the media has got to stop, this story needs to get out.
  
  --
  Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
49. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 22:21 · Score: 0
  
  If more than two dozen die due to end-to-end encryption, how many would its absence get killed? I'm sure the security services will take all sorts of money, this is India we're talking about.
50. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 22:27 · Score: 0
  
  and I never said SWATTING was new. It is you that keeps making shit up and trying to claim otherwise
  
  I never said that either
  yes you did, "So no, keep this shit in shithole countries. Thanks."
  
  So you think mentally stable people do this? Interesting.
  I think desperate poorly educated people do this. A pen name is pseudo anonymous, it is anonymous for any reader unless they decide to dig a little deeper, the reality is a pen name has to be connected to a real name at some point as you can't cash a cheque sent to a pen name. Many authors have tried to keep their pen names secret, they have invariably failed.
51. Re:side with the authorities here by Mathinker · 2018-07-23 22:32 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  > the only way
  Citation needed. This whole thing is like the flame wars over "the solution to spam".
  I have a different "solution". Hold the policeman of the village "accountable", instead.
  Interesting, however that this is modded up. WTF?
52. Re:side with the authorities here by Mathinker · 2018-07-23 22:37 · Score: 1
  
  > Certainly hasn't worked in the UK or the US, perhaps there are other better education systems somewhere?
  For humanities sake, I certainly hope so.
53. Re:side with the authorities here by Mathinker · 2018-07-23 22:39 · Score: 1
  
  > the only real option
  You (or other ACs) keep posting this. Unfortunately, I think it does mean what you think it means.
  That doesn't mean it's correct, however. No matter how many mod points you or your supporters have.
54. Re:side with the authorities here by Mathinker · 2018-07-23 22:43 · Score: 1
  
  > accountability is the only thing that stops some people.
  States the AC who claims (or other ACs claim here) that putting the accountability on murderous villagers doesn't stop them.
55. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 22:52 · Score: 0
  
  > only if you haven't deleted your message history
  We know that only guilty people do that, so either the rumor is traceable, or the person supposedly motivated by the rumor to do something evil is evil and deserves what he gets.
  There, problem solved!
  </sarcasm>
56. Re: side with the authorities here by Highdude702 · 2018-07-23 22:55 · Score: 2
  
  having your loved ones taken from you without warning any day or night to be sold into slavery, raped or murdered
  You basically described CPS and poor people.
57. Re:side with the authorities here by Mathinker · 2018-07-23 22:56 · Score: 2
  
  > All WhatsApp need to do is attach unique identifiers to messages when created so that when forwarded they can be traced back to the source
  Never heard of copy/paste, eh? Wow, this really, really reminds me of the "solution to spam" wars... Yes, I'm that old...
58. Re: side with the authorities here by Kenneth+Stephen · 2018-07-23 23:18 · Score: 2
  
  Thank you. There is a lot of anger directed against the police in the US - much of it coming from their heavy handed tactics in law-enforcement. However, the key differentiator here is that their tactics aren't politically motivated. Comparing the police forces to that of more brutal regimes is not just a matter of degree (of oppression) - its also a bad comparison in terms of the rationale for the behavior.
  Back on topic, I agree with the "accountability is the only thing" idea. Well....perhaps not the only thing, but in this case, its the thing thats needed to put out this fire before it consumes everything in its path. Anonymity is not a fundamental human right. It has value in certain contexts (like protecting dissent), but it also has downsides (as you can see in slashdot comments on this page itself - where there are many trolls as anonymous cowards who try to drag the rest of the posters down just because they can). Its a balance that someone has to strike, and in the absence of a specific law, one has to look at which causes the greater problem. In the short term, accountability will help a lot. It may even help with more problems than just lynchings - for example, what if the US military could now track down terrorists better because the messages they send are now traceable? In the long term, anonymity against law enforcement over the internet takes a big hit. I can live with that, because its something that was invented quite recently, and I'm not losing anything by it going away.
  Another point to keep in mind is that privacy and some forms of anonymity already existed pre-internet, and they were carefully weighed and considered within the legal system. Reporters can keep their sources private. Doctors have doctor-patient confidentiality. Religious confidentiality is honored. But there are exceptions to all these, that the court system has deliberately breached with the public interest in mind. And the world hasn't ended.
  
  --
  There is no such thing as luck. Luck is nothing but an absence of bad luck.
59. Re: side with the authorities here by orlanz · 2018-07-23 23:47 · Score: 0
  
  Not exactly hard to get around. You use a stolen or burner phone to seed the message to your group of culprits. This is what they are probably doing anyway. If you are going to trace every hop along the forward, then you lost a lot of privacy.
  However, it makes it easy for corrupted people in power to trace anyone who is critizing or going against them. Correction in Indian politics is an accepted norm. The few defense lines are reporters, and whistleblowers. They use WhatsApp for its privacy. Lose that and you lose a big clue stick in the war against corruption.
  The actual problem is mob justice. People taking what they think is justice into their own hands. And people thinking they can get away with illegal stuff because they are hidden in a crowd. Education and proper prosecution of those in the mob is the solution. And this is what local police are doing.
  You arrest a person for a day, and that family sees the impact from losing that person's help to the family and they correct.
60. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 23:52 · Score: 0
  
  Fuck them. Indopaks are a scourge on this planet. Let them wipe themselves out and be ostracized by the rest of the world. They're a vile smelly race of handwipers and need to be contained. They're migrating around and infecting other areas with their filth and breeder lifestyle. Half dont wear any sort of deodorant nor bathe regularly so they're a hygiene issue for the rest of us developed people.
  They're a race we don't need.
61. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 00:01 · Score: 0
  
  It's not racial prejudice. It's judging a society based on empirical evidence. India would be a shithole if the population were white but their other standard cultural behaviors remained unchanged. Same reason, btw, that parts of Chicago and nearly all of Detroit are shitholes. It's behavior and values (or in the case of Chicago and Detroit, lack of them), but you can go on pretending it's racism or whatever else you want to make up as excuses.
62. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 00:01 · Score: 0
  
  This will be my last reply to this.
  
  yes you did, "So no, keep this shit in shithole countries. Thanks."
  You do fucking realize Countries is plural right?? I mean, you can't be that retarded. Hell that is completely ignoring the fact I even said:
  Many Asian countries have the same damn "problem".
  
  I think desperate poorly educated people do this.
  Again are you fucking retarded? Have you never been in School and had some idiot pull the fire alarm? While a factor, Education has little to do with it.
  
  A pen name is pseudo anonymous, it is anonymous for any reader unless they decide to dig a little deeper, the reality is a pen name has to be connected to a real name at some point as you can't cash a cheque sent to a pen name.
  
  You seem quite confused as to what an author is... Going to assume you've not read many books or have a clue what you're talking about. People write things all the time and aren't paid for it.
  
  Many authors have tried to keep their pen names secret, they have invariably failed.
  OK?? And many have.. what was your point again?
63. Re:side with the authorities here by bloodhawk · 2018-07-24 01:00 · Score: 1
  
  Any dissenter in a country with an oppressive regime that wants to kill dissenters and is giving REAL information to WhatsApp and posting from a identifiable device lacks the self preservation abilities to survive anyway even without the tracing ID.
64. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 01:02 · Score: 0
  
  Wow, I had no idea it had gotten that bad.
  
  Wikipedia says: In the U.S., human trafficking tends to occur around international travel-hubs with large immigrant populations, notably California, Texas and Georgia. The U.S. Justice Department estimates that 14,500–17,500 people are trafficked into the country every year. The 2016 Global Slavery Index estimates that including U.S. citizens and immigrants 57,700 people are victims of human trafficking. Those being trafficked include young children, teenagers, men and women and can be domestic citizens or foreign nationals. According to the Department of State's statistics from 2000, there are approximately 244,000 American children and youth that are at risk for sex trafficking each year.
65. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 01:06 · Score: 0
  
  With the way USA is progressing, just give some time for fake news to start stirring KKK style killings. Then you will have an equivalent situation.
66. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 01:31 · Score: 1
  
  Maybe they should just watch their kids to make sure they aren't kidnapped.
  Killing someone when you have NO EVIDENCE they have done something is NOT JUSTIFIABLE no matter what. There is 0 sympathy from me. And no I have not lived a sheltered life, so knock off the personal attacks
67. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 01:40 · Score: 0
  
  Hey man. in Detroit, we don't need random bullshit from strangers to tell us to kill random people, we do it all by ourselves.
  Get your facts straight.
68. Re:side with the authorities here by thegarbz · 2018-07-24 01:41 · Score: 1
  
  The illusion of due process.
69. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 01:56 · Score: 0
  
  Seriously? Your reply is "blame the immigrants"? We've got a rash of rednecks kidnapping children for sale into slavery, and all you can think of is blame the immigrants? Your pointy hat and robe are over there, Grand Wizard.
70. Re:side with the authorities here by PPH · 2018-07-24 02:27 · Score: 2
  
  what they need to know is who started the whole shitshow
  It was started by Vishnu.
  Really, this is an insoluble problem. Because the purpose of religion is to cultivate unquestioning followers. And any attempt to punish their leaders or remove their ability to SWAT an enemy is going to be met with at least as much violence as the occasional butchered cow.
  
  --
  Have gnu, will travel.
71. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 02:44 · Score: 0
  
  There is no evidence they have been trying anything. Mostly Muslims and lower caste people have been killed - which the people currently in power want killed. Occasionally when some other variety of persons get killed, they try half-heartedly for a while to stop this violence but killing Muslims and lower caste people is too tempting to do anything worthwhile.
  Kashmir, the largest Muslim majority region in India has been reduced to a warzone for the last 4 years - with 8% voting and public humiliation with psychologically traumatic consequences for one of the voters who dared to vote.
  In the latest incident (as of yesterday - not sure whether it will be latest by the time you read this), a BJP MLA said that it was police who killed the victim - not the "lynch mob". Now the friends of anyone being lynch-attacked won't dare to call the police. Their enemies won't care to call the police. If police is not involved, the matter won't be one of lynching but people mysteriously found dead with broken bodies.
  Why is it significant that it happened yesterday ? Because the day before that, the Parliament, discussed this lynch effect in the greatest detail ever and after a long time at all.
72. Re:side with the authorities here by Cajun+Hell · 2018-07-24 02:44 · Score: 1
  
  India has a serious problem at the moment with malicious rumours spread by social media where the intent is to get people injured or killed.
  
  I can already see where you're going here. You're about to suggest they launch a huge public service campaign, and education reforms, to remind people how important critical thinking is, and that across-the-board, a modern society can't take seriously anything that isn't solidly based on evidence.
  
  tracability with a warrant I don't see as..
  You don't see it as necessary since even if you had it, it wouldn't do a single thing to even slightly help combat the problem. Yes, of course...
  
  .. a breach of privacy or security as the person put it out to the world for everyone to see intentionally anyway,
  Wait, what? I thought the context of the discussion is that the government wanted to break the encryption on private communications. How did public posts get into this? Surely the government can just read the public post like anyone else, even though there's so little reason to.
  
  what they need to know is who started the whole shitshow X that got Y people murdered.
  Posting something stupid isn't even in the same league as believing something stupid, and neither of those things are in the same league as doing something stupid. It looks like this government is trying hard to avoid addressing its public safety responsibilities.
  If you're Indian and anti-violence, then of course you're going to want the government to stop wasting its time with this worthless quest, and instead, go after the nutcases who are believing unfounded trolls and then doing what they're told.
  PSA: Be Less Programmable. You don't have to do everything you're told to do. You shouldn't believe things that are unsupported by evidence.
  Oh, and everyone, please remember to put a kitten into a blender tonight and delight in its agonizing death, because I read somewhere that they're all Satan's little helpers.
  
  --
  "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
73. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 02:57 · Score: 0
  
  Hey man. in Detroit, we don't need random bullshit from strangers to tell us to kill random people, we do it all by ourselves.
  Get your facts straight.
  Yeah but it's gangsta shit, yo!
  It's the major black contribution to society. It's why black males are a 6.5% minority of the USA yet account for 51% of all solved murder cases. Blacks commit more crimes and when they do, they commit more violent crimes than any other group. This is not unique to American thug culture, it's found all around the world.
  What is called "racism" is a political spin on what is actually simple pattern recognition. That's why there are no pleasant majority-black/black-run places to live. The lower castes of India (the majority) are dark skinned, though not as much as blacks. This neatly explains why India is a shithole by our standards, but India taken as a whole is a damn sight better than the majority of Africa. At least Indians are trying to build things like basic infrastructure, don't get over half their GDP from foreign aid, and aren't run by local warlords.
  Incidentally ... The highest caste (the tiny minority), the Brahmins, are light skinned because lighter skinned women are considered more attractive in Indian culture. They're all the same ethnicity, so what will you call that, "racism"? Historically the Brahmins had their choice of whatever women they wanted and over time that's how it worked out.
74. Re: side with the authorities here by Cajun+Hell · 2018-07-24 03:05 · Score: 1
  
  I am sure in many of the cases they weren't even intending to kill them, just to work them over a little but it really doesn't take much to take something like that too far.
  This is the kind of sentence where I'm not sure if you're serious or trolling. Are you suggesting these criminals deserve some sympathy?
  These people had deadly, malicious intent. Nobody ever "just works someone over a little" unless they're also willing to kill them, ever. If this sounds strange to you, then I think we have found one of the culprits: Hollywood and/or Bollywood. So there: trace done.
  
  --
  "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
75. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 03:23 · Score: 1
  
  The recent florida 'stand your ground' killing... That does not get recorded in the statistics as a murder (by white person). It would definitely have been considered a murder if the skin color was switched. Will your "51%" statistics hold true if we cosider all such crimes?
76. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 03:27 · Score: 0
  
  India should educate its population but can USA educate its population of fake news?
  Its the same hard job for india but multiplied in magnitude because of population.
77. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 03:42 · Score: 0
  
  India is not an oppressive regime? Is that your presumption?
  I suppose if one is wealthy in India, than life is good.
78. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 03:55 · Score: 0
  
  if there is a way to do it, a government can likely figure it out.
  Brute force it, the old fashioned way. They have the message, and know who sent it - Go to that person, and see who sent it to them - iterate until you get to the source. Good old fashioned police work that incurs a cost is whats needed here - when you give them access to something cheap/low investment to get instant results it will be abused - if it's expensive and time consuming then they won't do it unless absolutely necessary.
79. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 04:03 · Score: 0
  
  Just like Paul Manafort
  https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/daveyalba/paul-manafort-whatsapp-encryption-icloud
80. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 04:08 · Score: 0
  
  Found the fascist dickhead.
81. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 04:51 · Score: 0
  
  actually you could learn a lot from India about racism religious intolerance and fascism. nice rule by mob you got there.
82. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 06:17 · Score: 0
  
  "I am sure in many of the cases they weren't even intending to kill them, just to work them over a little but it really doesn't take much to take something like that too far."
  Have you ever physically hit another human being? It doesnt take much to take things that far when you intend to kill someone. If your intent is just to work someone over and hurt them then it is actually pretty hard to take it that far. Killing blows usually happen to target the head, neck or chest (you know where the vital organs are) someone who intends to cause lasting pain with out killing goes after the extremities (hands, feet, arms and legs). So if you are trying to work someone over by striking where the vital organs are then you are attempting to work someone over TO DEATH! which is much different from chopping off a finger, breaking a knee or other means of making someone hurt with out possibly killing someone. Any attempt to conflate the two motivations for causing pain is only caused by a certain level of stupidity about how the body works and how to cause pain.
  TLDR; if you strike the head, neck or chest with anything including your hands then you are trying to kill someone. Trying to cause someone pain without killing them involves afflicting their extremities. Yes even boxers are trying to kill each other, thats why there is a third man in the ring to stop it from going that far.
83. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 06:33 · Score: 0
  
  "for example, what if the US military could now track down terrorists better because the messages they send are now traceable?"
  funny, how many of the people that the US thinks are terrorists are ACTUALLY terrorists? what about the accountability for the US government when they get those things wrong? (see some of the detainees who have been held with out charges and tortured)
  Its an age old question, who watches the watchers? You want to give the government more power to control its population but yet you fail to see how such things are how you give nefarious actors the power to take control of the government and thus the population.
  "I can live with that, because its something that was invented quite recently, and I'm not losing anything by it going away."
  No, you can live with it because you have not been declared the enemy, but what if someone with power and influence doesn't like some defining characteristic of yours in say 10-15 years and they declare you the enemy? you could now lose your life to an unforeseen consequence of your decisions. Its always easy to say oh it doesn't affect me, but you don't know how it will apply to you in the future. Just look at the director of guardians of the galaxy, jokes that he said years ago have now cost him his job even though no one was offended when he said them. It just happens that someone recently decided that he was the enemy and went and used the tools available to go after him.
  PS Anonymity against Law enforcement on the Internet was not invented recently and has been a part of the Internet since the beginning even if the majority of people have always failed to take advantage of it.
84. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 06:34 · Score: 0
  
  If you gain the possibility to track villains, you gain the possibility to track dissidents and opponents as well.
  Yup, but genuine dissidents can go the extra mile. Use something else than whatsapp, something not used by the unwashed masses. (vpn, ssh, tor,...) They are trying to do something about 'mob rule', so they need accountability for what 'the masses' uses. Apparently, these masses uses whatsapp.
85. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 07:02 · Score: 0
  
  Not reasonable at all. If this were being done with pen and paper, would it be reasonable to go after the paper mill and pen factories?
  Fuck people are dense.
86. Re: side with the authorities here by Kenneth+Stephen · 2018-07-24 07:17 · Score: 1
  
  Its an age old question, who watches the watchers? You want to give the government more power to control its population but yet you fail to see how such things are how you give nefarious actors the power to take control of the government and thus the population.
  I'm not failing to see any such thing. I know what the consequences are, and I still am making the choice to say "no" to anonymity. There are solutions other than anonymity that deal with the issues of government overreach. And they are all meat space solution. I'm perfectly fine with those being options. What are the options? Here I'll be a little flippant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_boxes_of_liberty , but that is the general direction in which I'm thinking.
  
  --
  There is no such thing as luck. Luck is nothing but an absence of bad luck.
87. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 07:35 · Score: 0
  
  Wow. It must be really expensive to build a road in India if one can be held liable for people using them to disseminate fake news. See how retarded that sounds?
88. Re: side with the authorities here by farble1670 · 2018-07-24 08:01 · Score: 3
  
  No different to the US. US history is littered with such incidents
  Dude, this isn't US v. India. Everyone here that hasn't murdered someone because social media said so is free to judge those that do as retarded monsters. Because they are. No matter where they live.
89. Re:side with the authorities here by farble1670 · 2018-07-24 08:06 · Score: 1
  
  Yup, but genuine dissidents can go the extra mile. Use something else than whatsapp, something not used by the unwashed masses. (vpn, ssh, tor,...) They are trying to do something about 'mob rule', so they need accountability for what 'the masses' uses. Apparently, these masses uses whatsapp.
  How do we decide who gets to use the technology that disallows tracking, and who has to use the technology that tracks them? The government? Or will each person decide on their own if their cause is criminal (in which case they must allow themselves to be track), or for the better good of society (in which case they can justify use of the non-trackable technology)?
  It's a real good plan. Just a few kinks to work out.
90. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 09:59 · Score: 0
  
  these aren't anonymous tipoffs which is part of the problem, they are rumours that are passed along,
  Same. Fucking. Thing.
  That's what a rumor that your idiot friend gives you.
  It's the same thing.
  "Oh, but I'm a poor dumbfuck villager who couldn't possibly know better" is no mitigating excuse. It's just saying it's natural to give them amazingly low expectations. It's saying that it should be natural to assume that some rural hick is subhuman. No thanks.
  No sympathy. Zero.
91. Re:side with the authorities here by bloodhawk · 2018-07-24 10:47 · Score: 1
  
  He probably thought he was above the law rather than beyond discovery.
92. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 10:58 · Score: 0
  
  You could just as easily "fix" the problems in meatspace by unplugging the internet routers around the world. Or by just not treating your phone as an unquestionable deity that you must tithe to every waking hour of everyday. Maybe start by demanding all of that privacy invasion crap, especially the tracking, be made illegal. Maybe you should work on educating others about things they see online, and hold the police accountable for failing to do their jobs and protect the public.
  Instead, your "solution" to a group of criminals' tyranny is to take away everyone's freedoms by force, and by extension enable the tyranny of others, e.g. the government, while characterizing the solution as "just". If you can't see the fallacies in your actions*, you deserve every last bit of tyranny you'll get as a result and then some.
  * Here's a hint: Creating a new evil and doing nothing about the original evil is not a "just" solution to anything. The original evil was the police failing to do their jobs to protect the public from criminal acts. That evil is not addressed by revoking everyone's right to anonymity. Even if they had perfect information before the crime was committed, there would still be the possibility of turning a blind eye to the crime. Worse, you've created a new evil by giving the government carte blanche to know everything about it's people without any real protections. Any "crime" they deign as relevant is punishable without mercy, and any irrelevant crime is ignored, without any meaningful way to object to the situation, much less attempt to change it. So your boxes of freedom become irrelevant. Here's how:
  Soap box: Only approved messages. All messages are recorded and attached to your political record. Too many "objectionable" messages and you will be arrested for promoting hate speach and fake news, disturbing the peace, and resisting arrest.
  Voting box: Only approved candidates make the general elections. All of your voting attempts are recorded and attached to your political record. If too many people you vote for fall out of favor, you are banned from voting and you may be arrested for treason.
  Jury box: Only approved rulings are permitted. Jury nullification is illegal. Any ruling that is considered "unjust" is overturned instantly. All of your comments in the jury deliberations are recorded and attached to your political record. If apon review too many of your rulings are overturned you are arrested for contempt of court.
  Ammo box: HAHAHAHAHA! Really, do I need to explain this one? OK. They have millitary grade equipment / vehicles, unlimited funds, huge numbers, and a brainwashed absolute orders mindset. You have a pistol and maybe an AK-47 or M16 if you're a gun nut. You're not about to overtake an army. Oh, and by the way, you'll be executed on sight if you even remotely attempt this. Assuming you even get that far given that all of your purchases are recorded via credit cards. Too many cash withdrawls will be a huge red flag and investigated instantly, and your phone, CCTV cameras, snitches, etc. will be constantly transmitting your location to the relevent authorites, which makes organizing any kind of armed revolt or coup pretty much impossible.
  Anonymity is required for democracy. Banning it is required for tyranny. So your choice to say "no" to anonymity is really a choice to say "no" to democracy.
93. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 16:26 · Score: 0
  
  I'm not sure this word privacy means what you think it means.
94. Re: side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-25 02:30 · Score: 0
  
  The recent florida 'stand your ground' killing... That does not get recorded in the statistics as a murder (by white person). It would definitely have been considered a murder if the skin color was switched. Will your "51%" statistics hold true if we cosider all such crimes?
  Actually if a white person jumps/attacks a black person who was merely annoying but not actually posing a threat, and proceeds to slam that black guy's head into the concrete repeatedly (an act that could easily kill), and the black person retaliates by shooting the white guy, I know what the outcome would be. The black guy would be hailed as a hero for protecting himself from a "hate crime". Even without a "stand your ground" law, no cop would charge him and no jury would convict him. Also the media would be much less likely to twist unusual new terms like "white Hispanic" because this situation wouldn't fit the "black as victim" narrative. Finally, you wouldn't see white people rioting over it no matter how it turned out. When did you ever see whites in the USA riot because a court case didn't go their way?
  The truth as derived from the FBI crime stats: a black person is just over 12 times more likely to shoot a white person, than vice-versa. So you see the "black as victim" narrative is ridiculous and is a fiction designed to make stories sell.
95. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-25 09:07 · Score: 0
  
  There are so many things wrong with this statement, I can almost feel the adolescent angst pouring from it. If you're not an adolescent....well, then we've got a problem.
96. Re:side with the authorities here by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-25 15:42 · Score: 0
  
  no one is saying they can't use it. They just have to be more careful in how they use it. The reality is WhatsApp can already be traced, it is just a bit slow for the authorities to do and certainly can't be done fast enough to put an end to the rumour spreading in time. A dissident could already be tracked down as it stands.
97. Re: side with the authorities here by NewYork · 2018-07-25 16:17 · Score: 1
  
  Casteism is worse than Racism;
  Casteism = Racism + Slavery
  https://www.quora.com/Who-are-the-most-racist-people-on-earth
  
  --
  Casteism
98. Re:side with the authorities here by sjames · 2018-07-25 18:14 · Score: 1
  
  And so they can find out who originated a bunch of messages all at one time quietly and cheaply rather than with a noisy effort that might make them justify the action.
This is a culture problem, not a tech problem by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 17:39 · Score: 0, Troll

Fix your shit India!
1. Re:This is a culture problem, not a tech problem by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 17:44 · Score: 1
  
  It is both tech and culture. there will always be people willing to put the lives of others at risk for "fun". This is just india's version of SWATTING. as gravewax pointed out you don't need to break encryption to provide tracability, you can do that without ever breaching the encryption or security of the message itself and without the company ever needing to see or store a single piece of information from the message.
2. Re: This is a culture problem, not a tech problem by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 17:58 · Score: 0
  
  Companies who don't like this idea can stop doing business in India.
  I don't think you have an idea of the magnitude of the problem.
  Yes India has a problem, but how many lives need to be experimented upon before it can be solved ?
3. Re:This is a culture problem, not a tech problem by Mathinker · 2018-07-23 23:12 · Score: 1
  
  It is both tech and culture. there will always be people willing to put the lives of others at risk for "fun". This is just india's version of SWATTING. as gravewax pointed out you don't need to break encryption to provide tracability, you can do that without ever breaching the encryption or security of the message itself and without the company ever needing to see or store a single piece of information from the message.
  gravewax's solution for this problem is about as useful as Ray Ozzie's to a different one, unfortunately.
  They both "solve" technical problems while leaving the much harder societal/human ones unsolved.
  And if that would work, then spam would not exist today. See URL https://craphound.com/spamsolu... ; A lot of us still remember...
4. Re:This is a culture problem, not a tech problem by Littleman_TAMU · 2018-07-24 03:13 · Score: 1
  
  This appears different from spam in that it would be much more traceable. Also, part of solving the societal problem is the traceability. The idea is that if the originators start getting arrested along with those that perpetrate violence, others are less likely to start these types of rumors.
5. Re:This is a culture problem, not a tech problem by Mathinker · 2018-07-24 17:30 · Score: 1
  
  If you only punish the "originators", then a perfect defense is "I heard it from [insert worst enemy here]". I don't see a viable strategy for law enforcement here.
  As posted elsewhere here, it seems this is mainly the Indian government trying to gloss over the problem that they do not manage to make remote areas safe and lawful, and child abductions / human trafficking is a big problem there.
tracability does not require breaking encryption by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 18:37 · Score: 0

"Bringing traceability and accountability to WhatsApp would mean breaking end-to-end encryption on the platform, the company told VentureBeat." I wonder if venturebeat swallowed that blatant lie or if they called them on it?
Re:tracability does not require breaking encryptio by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 18:52 · Score: 0

Free speech has it's limits. It's been long accepted that yelling "Fire" in say a movie theater isn't protected free speech.
This is the same situation and I don't think India is wrong here.
Personally I'd suggest WhatsApp compromise, store something like GUID's for say three months. That should be long enough to deal with the yelling fire scenario without being that useful for retrospective bulk data mining.
better to eliminate murderous rioters than privacy by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 19:36 · Score: 0

If your society has a significant number of people willing to riot and murder on the basis of an anonymous message, privacy is not the problem.
Hydra of Govt.'s carelessness and exploitation by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 19:37 · Score: 0

First reason of lyncing: The current ruling govt. thrives on Hindu religious sensitivity and use caste centric vote bank politics to gain votes. Lynchings are nothing but attempts by right wing Hindu lunatics to protect cows which they want to protect being divine and their sacred mother. This will be beyond imagination for people from any other country, so Indians here will proudly stutter around here blaming stupid people, technology, etc. The fact is the Indian ruling govt. should be help accountable and punished, not technology or stupid people.
Second reason of lynching: Govt.'s massive failure, carelessness and hiding protecting child abduction. Thousand of boys and girls are kidnapped from the country, no one knows what happens to them. Some say they are used in organ trading, prostitution, child begging, slavery, etc. Due to lower number of children people are extremely cautious about such cases, so naturally things go haywire. Anyone suspicious gets caught and lynched. Recently in a case, somebody really tried to abduct, another two people got attacked. Everyone blamed whatsapp, hide real facts.
Re:tracability does not require breaking encryptio by Marisaze · 2018-07-23 20:01 · Score: 1

https://www.popehat.com/2012/0...
Re:tracability does not require breaking encryptio by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 20:25 · Score: 0

Free speech has it's limits. It's been long accepted that yelling "Fire" in say a movie theater isn't protected free speech.
This is the same situation and I don't think India is wrong here
Bullshit. It's not the same at all.
India has a problem with a population that is rebelling against the caste system, economic oppression, and an oppressive, wildly-corrupt, and abusive government. It has nothing to do with "rumors"...it's the facts the Indian government has a problem with. This is an attempt to stop leaks and to identify & trace organizers and key figures of the opposition.
As Indians communicate and learn the facts the State-controlled media won't disseminate about how corrupt the government truly is and how badly it is abusing Indian citizens, they naturally rebel. The Indian government quite sensibly fears the righteous wrath of it's own people because there are far too many people and far, far too few soldiers and police to contain them if they decide to overthrow the corrupt Indian government and throw off the yoke of oppression and the caste system that is one of the pillars supporting the oppression.
The people in the Indian government are in panic mode trying everything they can to hold on to power. This is simply one of the symptoms of an oppressive government teetering on the edge of rebellion and collapse.
Medium isn't the problem by CaptQuark · 2018-07-23 20:32 · Score: 1, Insightful

"When rumours and fake news get propagated by mischief mongers, the medium used for such propagation cannot evade responsibility and accountability.

So if the government mail service was used to send letters with fake news, the mail service would be accountable for any harm the misinformation caused? If you call someone on a cell and give them incorrect rumors that cause riots, the phone company is responsible for the content of the voice conversation? If you nail a flyer with misinformation to a power pole is the electric company accountable for "hosting" the message?

The communication method used by criminals can't be held responsible for the content of private and protected conversation if the service has no way to monitor every communication. If this was true, the cell phone providers would be just as culpable as WhatsApp for these false rumors.

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1. Re:Medium isn't the problem by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 21:29 · Score: 1
  
  So if the government mail service was used to send letters with fake news, the mail service would be accountable for any harm the misinformation caused?
  if the mail service refused all requests to assist with tracing the mail then yeah. If you try this in the US the mail service will provide as much traceable information as they can to track you down.
  
  If you call someone on a cell and give them incorrect rumors that cause riots, the phone company is responsible for the content of the voice conversation?
  
  again if the phone company refuses to provide details of the caller then yeah they would be in the shit, just like they would in the US. But then in the US every call has traced anyway and the originators information would be supplied with a warrant, refusing said warrant would be a whole bucket of shit for the phone company.
  
  If you nail a flyer with misinformation to a power pole is the electric company accountable for "hosting" the message?
  now you are just getting silly, unless the power company told people they could anonymously post such flyers then no they would not be liable.
  
  The communication method used by criminals can't be held responsible for the content of private and protected conversation if the service has no way to monitor every communication. If this was true, the cell phone providers would be just as culpable as WhatsApp for these false rumors.
  
  you are conflating two separate things, one is responsibility for the content and second (more important issue here) the identity of the caller. They aren't asking for the content, they are asking for who sent it. see what happens in the US if your telco tries to refuse the governments warrant for the details of the caller.
2. Re:Medium isn't the problem by Bongo · 2018-07-23 22:18 · Score: 1
  
  That’s a good point. It’s the free speech v. incitement to violence issue, and where the consequences are bad enough, what can be done other than try to find the perpetrators? Laws have to suit the specific society as it is. Of course, the point about free speech is that its positives outweigh the negatives, especially as it encourages growth and development. But it needs to be paced so that you don’t break the thing which you are trying to grow. There’s always a balance with developmental progress: enough challenge to move things forward but also enough support so things don’t fall apart. It’s a judgement call, how much a society can handle, at any point in time.
3. Re:Medium isn't the problem by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 00:18 · Score: 0
  
  No, because it's the speed of propagation that causes the hot-blooded reaction. When a chain letter went viral it was over weeks and the speed of other communications could match. When a manipulative lie online goes viral the mob's at the door before a reaction can be mounted.
  Also, post is targeted at a physical address, so there's little anonymity and a chance for consequences. Manipulative deception online is a relatively safe activity for the baddie.
4. Re:Medium isn't the problem by The+Cynical+Critic · 2018-07-24 00:25 · Score: 2
  
  The difference between traditional meatspace services like the mail is that they're at least to some extent traceable and will actively co-operate with authorities when their services are used for malicious purposes. What the Indian government isn't asking whatsapp to start being selective about who gets to use their platform, what they're asking for is making communication on the service more traceable so that they can track deadly hoaxes back to their originator and put a stop to those hoaxes by putting said people behind bars.
  
  I'm not saying that the traceability of meatspace services is always perfect, the post office couldn't track down Ted Kaczynski when he was using them to deliver his mail bombs, but at least they took an active part in the taskforce that eventually brought him to justice and were never blamed for facilitating his rampage. I personally haven't heard of a single time a mail service has been blamed for facilitating things like poison or bomb letters and their use goes way back. Even the suffragettes sent letters with ink that corroded the mailboxes or were just plain poisonous and even sent very crude firebombs with white phosphorous (which ignites on contact with air) in easily breakable glass containers.
  
  Either way, the thing about anything that helps trace the origin of something can both be abused and used for very legitimate purposes so if you understand the concept of nuance you're not going to have an extremist "nothing should be traceable" or "everything should be traceable"-outlook on this.
  
  --
  "Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."
5. Re:Medium isn't the problem by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 01:07 · Score: 0
  
  what can be done other than try to find the perpetrators?
  Catch and jail those who are violent. If people know that they go to jail if they act on fake news, then next time they will double-check the news or not act at all.
"False" by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-23 20:52 · Score: 0

Through out history a lot of "False" information has been proven to be correct. Why are we so sure that the people classifying information are correct and unbiased?
1. Re:"False" by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 01:25 · Score: 0
  
  If when you post fake news ("child molester at 123 Main St -- police not doing anything about it"), a mob forms and kills the entire family at 123 Main St, then maybe this should be fixed first. Your country is not yet ready for progress that comes from rationality and openness of ideas.
The proper answer is, and always should be... by Chas · 2018-07-24 00:02 · Score: 1

Not just "no". HELL NO!

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Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Shit by Mats+Svensson · 2018-07-24 00:37 · Score: 1

Also, all bathrooms should have transparent walls and doors, so we can see what the hell you are doing there.
What are you hiding, citizen?
Rape?
As the old saying goes... by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 00:43 · Score: 0

Messages don't kill people, people kill people.
Not Completely Encryption by tufailshahzad · 2018-07-24 01:07 · Score: 1

It was not entirely that related to encryption, the main matter was mob lynchings due to wrong forwarded messages that's why WhatsApp is now showing a label "Forwarded".
Authorship as insurance by reanjr · 2018-07-24 01:47 · Score: 1

Make content publishers operating in news spaces responsible for facts they publish, but allow them to push the blame if they can come up with the author. No need to force it, let the market work it out.
1. Re:Authorship as insurance by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 06:24 · Score: 0
  
  Make content publishers operating in news spaces responsible for facts they publish, but allow them to push the blame if they can come up with the author. No need to force it, let the market work it out.
  We have this. It's called a Tabloid, problem is at some point - likely around the same time media was consolidated into the hands of a select few - those organizations stopped facing any regulation. "Bloggers" were not reporters, seeing outright lies in national news papers was rare outside oppressive countries. And no one _believed_ a tabloid! (those things you see next to checkouts).
  "Freedom of the Press", should NEVER have extended past professional organizations that DO have accountability. They DID have something to lose for starting a riot and certainly governed themselves accordingly.
  That does NOT mean a blogger or someone writing a tweet isn't protected by other laws, they are entirely different things. Boggles my mind how a tweet can be picked up by international news as fact.
Re:better to eliminate murderous rioters than priv by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 02:07 · Score: 0

If your society
Pizzagate, anyone?
Who would use it then? by AnotherBlackHat · 2018-07-24 02:14 · Score: 1

If the service holds people accountable, then people who want to avoid that will stop using the service.
There are lots of ways to spread anonymous rumors.
Going after WhatsApp is just an updated version of "kill the messenger"
Trouble is... by DarrellBFI · 2018-07-24 02:56 · Score: 1

...you can't mix first world technology with third world thinking and expect a positive result. That may not be very PC to say but the issue isn't the communication medium being used but the cultural sophistication of the message recipients.

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Social Media Mgr at Bluefield Identity
1. Re:Trouble is... by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 07:10 · Score: 0
  
  This happens in the "1st world" also: false 'news', videos edited to show slanted/biased version, false accusations, etc that lead to violence.
Re:better to eliminate murderous rioters than priv by Cajun+Hell · 2018-07-24 03:13 · Score: 1

Pizzagate, anyone?
Totally.
So, what do you do about Pizzagate? Worry about how the silly rumor started? Or worry about the kind of people who believe every rumor, the stupider the better?
Tracing the rumor is useless. If people are acting like tools, then treat them like tools.
"What're you in for?"
"I'm a tool. I would attack anyone that anyone else told me to attack. I don't just think violence is the best answer, I think random, unfocused violence against any arbitrary target, whatever, is the best answer! BTW, let's go kill someone, I don't care who."

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"Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
Not buying it! by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 04:06 · Score: 0

Too much is being spread around about "fake news" and now false rumors and etc. It seems like those who had control over "the message" that was being sent to us are trying really hard to make laws to control every public venue.
Lies. Pretext for control. by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 04:08 · Score: 0

Lies. Pretext for control.
India's Governing Party Trolls by PineHall · 2018-07-24 04:27 · Score: 2

India's governing party is guilty of trolling and fake news on WhatsApp so this is all about control.

He [Mahaveer Prasad Khileri] is a former troll for India’s ruling Bharatiya Janata Party, or the BJP. “At that time, poison was in my mind,” he said.
Khileri was recruited by two acquaintances into the party’s social media operation in February 2014, just as Modi was racing to become India's next prime minister. He was given eight cell phones and ID’s for six different Facebook identities, he recalled in an interview in his home village of Jogaliya. He worked 18-hour days, toggling between legitimate campaign work and trolling of opponents and journalists, he said. When Modi won, the operation evolved as well, transitioning to a tool supporting Modi’s government.
Khileri worked in what the BJP calls its ‘IT Cell,’ which effectively operated as an ad hoc troll farm, he said. The development of the cell in the world's largest democracy occurred around the same time that American authorities believe Russia began using such techniques to influence the 2016 presidential election. The researchers contributing to the institute and Google reports found similar timing in different countries and under various circumstances.
According to Khileri, the Indian version of the trolling toolkit included strategies meant to inflame sectarian differences, malign the Muslim minority and portray Modi as savior of the Hindus. Supervisors would set themes for the day and specify targets to attack. Khileri and 300 other paid trolls would create memes or cut-and-paste Twitter posts that were sent to WhatsApp groups of tens of thousands of party loyalists. Their reposts sent hashtags viral in minutes.
“Muslims slaughter cows, so we’d tell them, ‘When Modi comes, we will slaughter you,’” Khileri recalled. “We’d tell Hindus: ‘If you don’t vote for Modi, then Muslims will destroy you.’”
sue the air by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 04:37 · Score: 0

I mentioned some fake news, now sue the air because that was the medium it was transmitted in
People need to be taught skepticism by presidenteloco · 2018-07-24 06:00 · Score: 1

In the present infowars environment, the solution cannot be to blame messaging and web platforms, and enforce massive compulsory censorship. That censorship itself is much too powerful an infoweapon that is way too vulnerable to abuse.
Instead, people need to be immunized against rampant disinformation, through better education.
For adults, a "bootcamp"-like remedial education, perhaps, strongly suggested for everyone.
Collectively, we need to learn how to rationally form our belief strengths, how to avoid or recognize common cognitive biases, including group-think meme propagation etc.
No other solution to this problem is sustainable or effective.

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Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
Fake news apps by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 07:16 · Score: 0

Need to be outlawed when people started being killed.
Even in America.
If you cant hold people responsible for their actions you have anarchy.
Fuck india. by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 09:47 · Score: 0

They too busy raping folks !
Just fuck em ! LOL.
Re:tracability does not require breaking encryptio by Anonymous Coward · 2018-07-24 11:43 · Score: 0

"Bringing traceability and accountability to WhatsApp would mean breaking end-to-end encryption on the platform, the company told VentureBeat."

The only reasonable way in that end-to-end encryption would have to be broken is if when you sent an encrypted message, it did not pass through WhatsApp's servers and instead connected a service running directly on the target device. IE, implausibly unlikely.
There is only one other reason why encryption would have to be broken -- you don't want to just see that a message to person X came from person Y, but you also want to scan the message contents without going through the phone device.