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The Rogue Tesla Mechanic Resurrecting Salvaged Cars (vice.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Motherboard: In a scrapyard in Massachusetts, the YouTuber known as Rich Rebuilds runs a pair of jumper cables from a broken down Tesla Model S to a deep cycle battery. "We may hear some clicks," he says, as he prepares to connect the second lead. "We may hear some buzzing. The car may explode. I don't know what's gonna happen." As a self-described "Doctor Frankenstein of Teslas," this is Rich Benoit's modus operandi. On YouTube, he's chronicled his journey to learn how the cars' internal systems work -- and how to repair them after floods, fires and wrecks. In a new Motherboard documentary, Benoit shows us the scrapyards where he scavenges Tesla parts, the basement where he categorizes them, and an auto body shop that lets him use its equipment. He shows us deep under the hood, where he wrestles with the motors, high-powered batteries and tangles of electronics and cables that make Teslas tick. Since his first Tesla restoration -- he's now working on a second -- Rich has become a point-person in the Tesla repair community. He runs a Facebook group for people who want to sell and trade parts and has helped other enthusiasts across the country and as far away as Norway, Germany and South Africa. Tesla told Motherboard that it will inspect salvaged vehicles to assess which repairs are needed, but there would be a fee. The company says customers are free to do whatever they want with their cars, including repair them. However, Massachusetts, because of their "Right to Repair" initiative, is the only state where Tesla owners can register to access repair manuals, service documents, wiring diagrams, and part information. According to Electrek, President Jon McNeil says the automaker is working on opening the program.
Every shit Tesla should be sent to a crusher.
for Mass. residents. Re-sell access to the manuals to people all over the world. Fuck Tesla's evil attitude towards DIY owners.
If this was a computer company that refused to resale parts or provide repair information everyone here would be having a coronary.
Someone how only Tesla gets a pass on this...
Care to explain your position?
Everyone is in favor of this.
But when it's Tesla is OK because of quality control or something.
The last link about opening up the manuals is dated 1/13/2017.
What's the deal?
I don't buy new cars. I get used ones and fix them myself. And there are a few Tesla's (X, a couple S's but no 3s yet.) around me and I was hoping to one day pick up one used and repair it myself. I can't afford a new one anyway.
But if I can't access the manuals, I'm SOL.
I guess it's the Chevy Bolt for me.
Tesla is just following the tech industry model of SaaS. Essentially pay a monthly fee for their "services". Keep your car connected to the Mother corporation.
I'm curious.
Can you have the rights to reverse engineering the car?
Can you disassembly every piece or component of the car?
Can you assembly these disassembled pieces?
Can you mod or improve this car for competition?
Can you double the batteries of this car?
Why is everyone here so rights-orintend except with it deal with an $100,000.00 car you pay for.
Then this is an exception and gets a pass, always, because Elon Musk and Tesla.
All that go out the glass.
...I'm not entirely happy with the attempt to force all parts & repairs through a system that requires a current supported Tesla serial number. I do understand it for when you are welding the front half of one car to the rear half of another... but just requesting a nut?
Maybe they do have a point in that if the car fails catastrophically the Tesla brand will be tarnished; in this current environment it will (thanks "shorts", Auto-manufacturers, Big-oil & Unions). Possibly a solution is to debrand or rebrand such cars? ALSET or EDISON? :)
Anyway watching the video and the closed nature does sadden me a bit...
For the hard-core geeks both electrical and mechanical:
Tesla Model 3 - Exploded
This guy has a brilliant series of videos detailing all aspects os Tesla anatomy.
One thing to note about restored Telsa EVs is that they cannot use the supercharger stations. Apparently there is some sort of key held in RAM that indicates it's been tested and meets certification criteria. You can get it re-certified but I've heard it's a costly process because they have to inspect the cabling.
You may think this is somehow unfair but remember how much power is flowing through the cables to recharge all those batteries. It's not a stretch to think that minor damage to a cable could go unnoticed and then set your car and the whole supercharger station on fire.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
Tesla's have not been out that long and the first one's were very expensive. Doesn't say much if a guy can already make a living selling parts off them? Just a bunch of worthless toys for the 1% if you ask me.
How come everyone supported him WRT to his argument about cars with hoods sealed shut and what not? He WARNED YOU this was coming.
Now the tech people clamor for a car with exactly this? Is this just some type of age or generation gap? (If you don't like it call Uber, etc, etc.).
What happened and why does Tesla get a pass?
If GM did this you'd be screaming from the highest mountain.
Also, I think he'd have more success just reading the manuals than just randomly connecting up things and seeing if they burst into flame.
both electrical and mechanical:
Can't.... resist...
I'm the very model of a modern Tesla technician,
I've information technical, electrical, mechanical,
I know the latest models, and I quote designs historical,
From Model X to Model 3, in order categorical;
I'm very well acquainted, too, with matters mathematical,
I understand transmissions, both continuous and manual,
I'm bullish on the stock reports and teeming with a lot o' news,
With many cheerful facts about executive option issues.
You are breaking the EULA.
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
Watch Rich's videos. You can get some manuals and TSBs from Tesla, but you can't get the software that diagnoses error codes, which is pretty much critical if there are *any* problems with the motors, or steering system, or breaks, or batteries, or anything controlled by the cars computer which is, pretty much, everything.
My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
Mod this up. Great stuff.
I gave you a +1 funny on this - but it's more of an "A for effort" kind of upmod than a actual "Attaboy!"
The thing is - and I'm being serious here - your scansion sucks, beginning with the very first line. Here's a thought: try singing those words to that song. Go ahead, I'll wait ...
See? It can't be done without slaughtering the tune. Too many wrong stresses built into your choice of the words "Tesla technician." The only way to make the tune work is to pronounce it as "tek-NI-see-an," and, even then it still trips off the tongue like the town drunk attempting the first stage of Ninja Warrior.
I'm a writer. This stuff matters to me. I hold or co-hold copyrights on around 4 dozen songs, so I can't help hearing parody lyrics being sung as I read them. And these words don't work as lyrics to Gilbert & Sullivan's classic composition.
That is, they don't so much for me. But I upmodded you anyway, because you at least made an effort ...
(Posting as AC only so as not to undo prior upmods in this thread.)
--
Check out my novel ...
The people who are screaming about Tesla not opening up the repair info to the masses should also realize that almost none of their vehicles sold, to date, are old enough to be completely out of warranty. The Model S wasn't a thing you could buy until 2012, and they all got an 8 year, unlimited mileage warranty on their powertrains.
When you couple that with the fact that Teslas were never mass produced in the quantities the big-name auto makers produce? You start to realize that the number of Teslas out there in scrap yards from getting totaled in accidents or written off from flood damage are FAR too few to support the business of local garages or other repair shops who might want to specialize in working on them.
As a used Model S owner myself, I've done a lot of reading and research on the cars, because I wanted to know what I might be up against in coming years. The biggest issue facing Tesla owners today is an overall shortage of parts. Even if you have an authorized Tesla body shop repairing your car from a fender-bender, it's quite common they can't obtain a body panel or other trim part you need for 2-3 months. That's one of the challenges the company is still trying to overcome. (Again, they're nowhere near the size of GM or Ford or Toyota ... and they didn't really have the money to stock large quantities of spare parts in warehouses. I'm sure they started out just making spare parts to order, as they had the need. And now they have enough cars on the roads so that's not workable, but their factories were doing all they could just to meet demand for the new Model 3 vehicle orders.)
Personally? I think there's a great money-making opportunity for independent shops who can stock specific parts that are known to fail somewhat regularly, and can do those specific repairs. Great example? Model S auto-retracting/presenting door handles. These are pretty complex components and had a couple of design flaws. (Tesla used a cast metal gear part that tends to develop a stress fracture over time and break into pieces. They also used regular copper wire where flexible silicone wire should have been substituted, so over hundreds of door handle cycles, the wire flexing back and forth snaps it.) Both of these issues have been addressed, at least to a large extent, with a newer handle revision. But my understanding is, Tesla didn't do that until 2017 and there's kind of a run on these -- since service centers will only replace an older revision broken handle with the latest revision. Clearly, this is a place where independent shops could re-work a broken, old revision handle and make it "better than new", for cheaper than Tesla's repair cost. (Tesla wants around $700+ per door handle for an out of warranty repair.)
Another example is the small 12 volt battery in a Model S. This is known to fail on a lot of people, and will leave you stranded if it does. (Luckily, you *usually* get some kind of warning on the dash that it's having issues for at least a little while before it conks out.) This one, again, was usually just a free warranty swap so far. But as these cars age out of factory coverage, it'll become a problem. There's a company on the net called BattMobile who sells an improved replacement battery with the necessary, proprietary battery connector points already on it. But it would be great if more shops knew how to swap one of these and could do it for people inexpensively. On a dual motor Model S, it's not THAT tough as job, but it's kind of a bear to get to it on the regular, single motor vehicles.
According to Electrek, President Jon McNeil says the automaker is working on opening the program.
This is some epic horseshit. It doesn't take any work to
open the program". Does anyone actually think that Elon can;t figure out how to put a service manual onto a website? They know how to sell cars, but don't know how to sell parts?
Kiss my fucking ass.
Sometimes I suspect the main reason more software isn't open to the public is the authors are too embarrassed to show it.
If only Tesla would do the right thing and let you get it repaired where you want like all other manufacturers. But I guess vendor lock-in is a good thing?
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
and laws will force there hand that software must be put to 3rd party repair shops and that can't black list people for useing non dealer parts / non dealer shops.
Rei bought in to TSLA at about $260. They spiked to $371 but he didn't sell then. Today they closed at $297. JP Morgan say $180 by the end of the year.
I will agree that the first line doesn't work. The rhyme is wrong too. But the rest seems to fit to me. Having listened to a few versions online while composing this, there are plenty of such mispronunciations in the song itself. I kinda find it painful actually, and I may have cut some syllables out of the last few lines because I hate that method of forcing words to fit.
I'd love to see a competing version in a reply...
No, the battery is covered by a standard 8 year warranty but the rest of the car only has 4. A lot of people have been buying extended warranties because the cost of repairs is astronomical.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
If the Tesla chargers are at risk then the 50/100/175kW third party changers are going to be too.
Yes indeed for the 50 kW AC chargers.
(no for the higher charger, those are DC, and Tesla uses a different connection. Normal DC uses Mennekes connector (for ground and data) plus 2 exra pins for DC. Tesla's proprietary connection re-use pins of the Mennekes to carry DC. You can't fry a 175kW by connecting it to a Frankentesla, because you can't even connect it to begin with. Look up "Type 2" in Wikipedia for the details).
(Though maybe the situation is different in the US. Are there converter plugs between whatever shit Tesla uses there and whatever you use for 175kW DC on your side of the ocean ?)
Now to go back to your discussion. Yes, you could just as likely fry a 50 kW AC charger by connecting it to a Frankentesla as connecting a supercharger.
But the thing is, the Supercharger network belongs to Tesla, so they would certainly add a feature to make sure that they only allow whichever car they want on it and refuse other cars (cars whose owner hadn't paid for the Supercharger network access now that this is a paying option. Cars who have been rebuild and that Tesla hadn't controlled and certified to a point were they are comfortable of them being plugged. Etc.)
It's their electrical plug, it's their call.
Meanwhile, those 50kW AC chargers don't belong to Tesla. And up until whomever they belong to, tend to only be fussy and make checks and controls about payments (you need to wave a credit card or a membership cards on those charger which aren't 100% free-as-in-beer), but rely on all the security that already exist in current charging tech regarding safety.
Now, I am ready to bet that lots of jurisdiction have already/are going to setup precise criteria about passing inspection for a rebuilt *electric* car, just like there has always been criteria for rebuilt ICE cars. So chances are, in the near future, in lots of country, if the Frankentesla was allowed on the road and managed to drive all the way to your charging station, risks of it exploding should be rather low, given the safety features of charging tech.
(Disclaimer: All the various electric vehicles I've been driving have always been AC charging only. I haven't driven a DC-charging car yet, be it Tesla or any other brand. So I'm just speculating, it's not first hand experience)
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Why can't I go into a Tesla parts counter in the same fashion as a Mazda parts dealer can get whatever the fuck I want if I'm willing to pay for it?
Because virtually all the Model 3 currently on the road are more recent that their warranty period.
Thus to an end users, thinking about repairs seems free-as-in-beer.
It would be hard for any business to compete with a percieved price of "zero".
Wait a few years, for the market to start having lots of old second-hand Teslas that aren't warranty covered and needs repairs/maintenance/upgrades here and there.
Then being a "Tesla parts" reseller would be much more interesting business.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Can you assembly these disassembled pieces?
In some jurisdiction : No, you can't.
If you want to put your re-assembled franken on a street, it has to pass safety inspection.
Only then yes, if if passes inspection, you can drive your Frankencar on streets.
That includes electric cars too.
Can you mod or improve this car for competition?
In these jurisdiction, competition tracks aren't considered public roads, they are considered private grounds.
You aren't required to pass safety inspection by law.
(But the track owner might have other requirements).
But as long as carry your Frankencar on a trailer, you're free to do whatever pleases you and the track's owner, including up to watching a nice firework if any of your mods goes wrong.
(this no matter what powers you car, be it gas, electricity or even crazier tech. As long as your car doesn't make the IAEA nervous, that is).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
I think this situation could be handled by a compromise designed in from the start.
For example, the charging, battery and software is offlimits...
but the rest of the car is open and documented.
The analogy being Open API's
A blog I run for the wealth
It's too bad moderators don't have to know anything to get mod points.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
That only works if two preconditions have been met: 1) a sufficient density of vehicles to keep the shop occupied. And 2), a sufficient supply of spare parts (depth, breadth, and speed of replenishment). The latter in particular is a problem as Tesla is struggling to meet the existing market.
Presuming it's broken in a fashion that lends itself to rework. (A gear that "broken in pieces" cannot be reworked, it must be replaced.) Even so, the labor of disassembly, replacing the individual failed part, and reassembly isn't going to be cheap. Nor is obtaining the individual replacement parts. (Especially if they have to be manufactured rather than ordered.)
I stumbled across his channel earlier this year. He raises a lot of good points - although he may not verbalize them in the videos, he stumbles across lots of issues that are bigger, he'll have a problem "man Tesla makes this difficult" that really needs to be thought through. It seems bigger than right-to-repair. Watching his experiences is terrific though, as it provides insights into how complicated this can be.
Somebody wrote to him with a problem which raised an issue - the guy had purchased a used Tesla. The issue raised was: sure, maybe you need to pay for something, life isn't free. Take super charging for example - seems like an add-on (i'm not a telsa expert) that the first owner can purchase. But it does not transfer to the second owner nor can another company offer it. When the car has been sold to a second owner, or resurrected from the scrap yard... Tesla won't allow super-charging via (what is believed to be) a firmware block. Only "certified" cars can have this...and only "certified" cars can have firmware updates (which includes safety updates like auto-pilot). But the cost to get a car recertified was (in a few cases) many many (many!!) thousands of dollars. So you're blocked from super-charging and presumably from auto-pilot updates too. They are connected in Tesla's mind. When you buy a used-Tesla you should mentally tack on $5-10k for the recertification & required repairs. I understand that the electricity may not be free to the second owner, but Supercharging is also the rate of charge.
I can understand that the battery might require inspection to verify that it won't catch fire when under charging load. And there might be a fee for this inspection. But the price tag was a bit out of this world. Which then asks - can't somebody else perform this? And then how would they offer charging to a secondary-certified car? Tesla is not interested in this - at least based upon their pricing. It's like a cell phone. Battery doesn't work? Toss it in the recycle bin and buy a new car.
Might I create my own charging network? And offer charging to Tesla's? But I can't offer "super-charging" capacity to these cars because Tesla blocked it in the car itself.... even if "I" created a recertification program for my network.
Of course - my first auto-pilot update would be to offer bigger pillows to strap onto the front bumper.
Can't really say this is an improvement, but here goes...
I'm the very model of a Tesla millenial,
I've information technical, electrical, mechanical,
I know the latest models, and I quote designs historical,
From Model X to Model 3, in order categorical;
I'm very well acquainted, too, with matters mathematical,
I understand transmissions, both continuous and manual,
I'm bullish on the stock reports and my vlog receives a lot o' views,
With a thought-provoking stance and discussion that from thence ensues.
[chorus]
With a thought-provoking stance and discussion that from thence ensues!
With a thought-provoking stance and discussion that from thence ensues!
With a thought-provoking stance and discussion that from thence ensues!
I'm very attentive and hands-on when using Autopilot,
Your arguments of its dangers I vigorously will rebut,
In short, in matters technical, electrical, mechanical,
I'm the very model of a Tesla pro millenial.
[chorus]
In short, in matters technical, electrical, mechanical,
He is the very model of a Tesla pro millenial.
I know the Twitter history, Elon Musk's and Larry Fossi
I've mastered the tent production line in all its intricacy
I know the specifications and tolerances of the drivetrain
And can relate them accurately in form of verse quatrain
I can tell by ear a supercharger from level 2 AC,
And then coerce my salvaged model to recharge at level 3!
All while I hum a tune which subtly wormed its way into my ear,
A jingle hawking internal combustion cars of yesteryear.
Certainly qualifies as doggerel. One could substitute "tech" for "pro" throughout, and perhaps "speculative" (tortuously pronounced spec-you-lay-tive) for "thought-provoking".
Jon McNeill (who was, at the time, president of North American sales/service at Tesla) told me in an email around early 2017 that Tesla was going to fix this stuff around mid-year 2017. This came and went, and he stopped responding to my emails, and then around the start of this year he left Tesla for good. Still no movement on "open" anything from Tesla.
What is the problem? Tesla actively blocks the sale of any parts whatsoever to any salvage or grey market (unsupported) cars, and will not provide any service information to anyone, even in "supported" cars, except in a few states where it's legally mandated. In addition they will not provide "restricted" parts to anyone, which includes all of the drivetrain/battery/HV stuff. They also do not provide the necessary software and access to the car's internal systems (you are locked out of your own car). They don't even give you this, even in states where it's legally mandated! Tesla is the "Apple" of car makers, and actually they are worse in some ways!
I am the guy who has been posting all the Model 3 teardown videos on YouTube, and I also help people all over the world with their unsupported cars. I have helped about 400 cars get back on the road since I started in 2015. (Including Rich Benoit's cars who is the subject of the above article!)
It's almost impossible to get a Tesla going again without internal diagnostic and software access, as all parts must have matching software before the car will drive. Also, many modules are VIN-married. I provide this service, because Tesla refuses. Even in states, such as Rich's home state; MA, where this is right-to-repair legislation in place, Tesla is technically in violation, because while they will give you a service manual, they do not give you diagnostic access or software to work on the cars.
I actually support Tesla and believe in their mission and want them to succeed, but this policy is toxic, and if not reversed soon is going to make the cars very difficult to insure, thus threatening their mission.
Here is my email to Jon:
Jan 18, 2017
Hi Jon,
My name is Phil, and I'm the one who originally exposed the launch limit counter issue. I want to personally thank you (and Tesla) for non only resolving this issue, but going above and beyond by agreeing to cover accelerated wear under warranty. This is absolutely amazing!
My biggest remaining complaint on Tesla's policies is refusing to sell replacement parts to owners of salvage cars. In addition, refusing to release simple service information such as service manuals, wiring diagrams, etc to all owners so they can service their own cars, or allow independent service shops to work on them.
I now support about 100 salvage and gray market cars around the world that Tesla has abandoned, and I provide the owners with diagnostic support and a remote access application. They have no other recourse and have to resort to lying to service centers to obtain parts in many cases.
Tesla's policy of blacklisting salvage cars makes the prices drop in the salvage market (good for people like me that buy them), but extremely bad for the insurance companies as they lose a massive amount of money when these cars are totaled. This is resulting in higher insurance premiums for Tesla vehicles as well as some insurers classifying them as "exotics" or outright refusing to insure them at all. This will eventually result in the vehicles losing value because they will be expensive to insure.
If this policy continues, especially as cars come off warranty and Tesla denies access to service data and parts to independent shops, There will likely be bad publicity and lawsuits. This will definitely not fly with a mass-market affordable car such as the Model 3.
I believe this a grave threat to Tesla's mission, and I think action should be taken immediately.
Elon has stated that service is not intended to be a profit center, yet parts are not freely a
Hmm that's funny because I have a 5 year old Tesla that is 1 year out of warranty... 8 years warranty only covers the motor and battery, everything else isn't covered.
From what I gather info online, and from what limited experience I have (on *other* cars) :
Nope.
It's not the *car* that gets remotely disabled. (That would actually be illegal. See Renault's answer on complains about risk of remote shut down of rented Zoe batteries).
It's Tesla banning some models *from their own charger*.
Super Chargers : it's their chargers, it's their call to decide what goes on there.
Chademo : They don't own these chargers, it's the charger's owner decision if they accept you on them or not. The dozen of such chargers I've seen, the only concern of the charger owner is that you swipe your credit card or membership card so they can charge you
(even if the amount is ridiculously low -- the privilege of living in a country with a high cost of living and Alpine hydro everywhere : electricity seems cheap, even if it would probably give a heart attack to somebody from China if they hear how much we pay for it).
The owner of the charging stations usually don't give a damn about what you plug into it.
Their logic being :
- if you drove it all the way to reach this highway rest area, it means that it has passed the law-required safety test, and should be more or less safe.
- the charging system have a couple of safety measures to avoid incidents.
Both the above should be enough to lower the risk of a Frankentesla catching fire to an acceptable level for them.
Which also means :
had the remote-disabled Tesla currently reported on youtube happened in Europe, instead of leaving the car at a friend or needing to tow it all the way back to home, the owner of the Frankentesla, could simply plug it into a competitor's chademo station with such an adapter - or like in my post above example, into a slower Mennekes AC plug, and had it fully recharge for about the same money that his coffee budget for the trip, (and of course record his youtube rant in front of the competitor charger).
(Or maybe even for free. Some businesses provide Mennekes AC charging for free as a way to attract customers - IKEA does here around)
But given most of the turn of events, I deduce that :
- charging station other than supercharger apparently aren't that common in the US ? So leaving the car at a nearby's friend is the only solution.
- given the type of power plugs available in the US (120V, capped at 10A max ?), it would take several days/a week to charge the battery and the friend might not be happy with such high and prolonged consumption.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
I have heard, that if you get it up to 88 mph, and put it in reverse while pressing the gas and brakes at the same time.
A service menu hud pups up on the windshield.
And you can change all kinds of cool settings, like the color of the brake-lights, or make the steering-wheel left handed.
You mean like when the other manufacturers wouldn't "do the right thing" and sell their cars? Or even allow them to sell them, themselves? You're reaching very hard here. They're outsiders for many reasons, and one of them is the standard dealership/garage networks that would never want to deal with Tesla until they have no choice.